Question:

> Hello People, > Here’s the deal on phobias like fear of thunder. > I’ve been trying to get you to understand the intricacies and > dynamics of dog behavior. There are a few people who have learned and > benefited by what I’ve been teaching here. For the vast majority, > this has been an effort in futility, but I knew all that before I > started. That’s WHY I’m here…

Hello People Jerry Howe is only here to sell you his dubious $100 electronic training device. That is where the link he posts takes you. The free manual offer is the bait for a "bait & switch" scam. (A purchaser of jerry’s $100 training device has posted a review at: EdW http://Petloss.com

Response:

Hello People, Here’s the deal on phobias like fear of thunder. I’ve been trying to get you to understand the intricacies and dynamics of dog behavior. There are a few people who have learned and benefited by what I’ve been teaching here. For the vast majority, this has been an effort in futility, but I knew all that before I started. That’s WHY I’m here… Fasten your seat belts, and prepare to take a quantum leap in awareness, LIKE IT OR NOT. Look at the people we know here, with dogs who demonstrate a fear of thunder. MOST of those folks are dominance trainers who rely on pronged or choke collars to force control over their dogs’ behavior. Why do I say there is a correlation between dominant trainers, pronged or choke collars, and fear of thunder? BECAUSE THAT IS A FACT. The dominance and pronged choke collar crowd rely on FEAR and FORCE to dominate and control the dog… The AMOUNT of FORCE APPLIED to the collar is NOT the ”BAD GUY." ANY amount of force, JUST THE FACT the dog is wearing a pronged or choke collar, is the culprit, and THAT is what is responsible for the dog NOT being SELF CONFIDENT, and therefore he is NOT ABLE to cope with STRESSORS they cannot understand, like separation, fireworks, and thunder. CONFIDENT dogs do not react with undue fear to loud noises and unusual circumstances, because they have developed confidence in themselves through the appropriate leadership of their handler. Where does the pronged choke collar and dominance enter the equation? When we totally subordinate our dogs, they rely on US, and NOT THEMSELVES, to assume control in ANY situation. The dog has NEVER LEARNED SELF CONTROL, and hence, SELF-CONFIDENCE. This is what happens when a thunder storm approaches. The POWERFUL leader is NOT ENFORCING CONTROL over the situation, and now the dog is relying on himself. The dog’s CONFIDENCE is TOTALLY wrapped up in the relationship of accepting MORE FEAR and FORCE, to override his natural instinctive, reflexive behaviors. THAT’S WHAT HAPPENS EVERY TIME THE PRONGED CHOKE COLLAR is applied. FEAR of the prongs OVERRIDES the natural response of POSITIVE THIGMOTAXIS, and causes the dog to emotionally collapse inward. YOU are RESPONSIBLE for MAINTAINING and INCREASING your dog’s PHOBIAS, like SEPARATION, STRANGERS, and THUNDER… PEOPLE! LISTEN TO ME! USE this INFORMATION to wean yourself away from the STANDARD, ACCEPTED, JERKING and CHOKING, and give YOURSELF the ABILITY and CONFIDENCE to INSTILL SELF-CONFIDENCE in your dog… You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train your dog using non force, non confrontational, scientific and psychological behavior modification and conditioning techniques, from the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com BEWARE the forgeries to confuse you, and the warnings offered to you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding killfiling my posts and the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. These people are frantic at the thought of not having anymore EXCUSE for being able to jerk, choke, and hurt dogs on pronged, choke, and electronic shock collars. You cannot trust your dog’s well being to people who tell you to killfile my advice…and tell you to punish, confine, and confront your dog’s behavior problems. Our Gang Of Thugs are easily identifiable by their warnings about my posts, and their killfile instructions to prevent me from EXPOSING THEM as the vicious, abusive, cretins they are,AND WANT YOU TO BE, so they don’t look out of sorts. "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

>the pet >store and get a small pronged collar and put it on my wrist and then >have the clerk pull it real fast. It hurt!! It also left spots where it >scraped my wrist and they bled a little.

I find that a bit hard to believe.  Unless of course the clerk was some type of buffoon. Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

Response:

>If you are choosing a choke collar over a harness I am >guessing you are trying to train your dog by giving a JERK >each time he does something negative. > If you jerk or pull on a choke collar, you’re using it > incorrectly. > A choke collar, also called a check chain, should be used as a > sound distraction – when you give it a "pop", it makes a noise. > In fact, the Barbara Woodhouse collar was designed with links > that give off more noise than other choke collars. > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog

BUNK. Here’s the lowdown on our ”EXPERTS,” the LIARS and DOG ABUSERS of r.p.d.b: > Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is > something you twisted out of context, because you > are full of bizarro manure.

LIAR. I’ll just copy a direct quote or two or three or four or five or six… HOWE many direct quotes would you like??? Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, it means slap.  amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog, Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" AND HERE’S THE REST OF THE ROUNDUP, the posters our own respected lyingdoc doermer, assholeciate professor of behavior at U of Wisc. learned so much from. lyingdoc dermer RECENTLY endorsed the koehler method: Diane Blackman, Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE lyingdoc dermer DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? Janet Boss, Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS, and can’t outwit a puppydog… Take a look at the thread "interested in hearing" where your pal janet boss overlooks TWO SHOCK CONTAINMENT DEVICES, and tells the people to jerk and choke the dog on a pronged choke collar, and lock the dog up at any time he can’t be jerked and choked…. The consensus of opinion of our "EXPERTS" here was to KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR. Susan Fraser, susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. Avrama Gingold, Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. Lynn Kosmakos, Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE the dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? BESIDES, WHAT’S SO WRONG being a koehelr trainer, THAT lyinglynn AND CINDYMORON BOTH DENY USING THE KOEHLER METHODS THEY USE and TEACH??? Or is it just that lying is in vogue??? Bob Maida, What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n fagotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. Cindy Tittle Moore, A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron? Here’s the deal… We get her to force fetch train three dogs in front of a childs playground, and I’ll train three protection dogs in the same site, and we’ll see who the children are disturbed by, and who the parents are going to call the cops on… And then I’ll show up as expert witness for the prosecution, and we’ll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a criminal judge and jury… HOWE’S that for a FAIR TEST??? Denna Pace, Says she sees a lot of value in koehler… She’s got PLENTY of problems with her own dogs running away and being disobedient. John Richardson, He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle. He’s as abusive and immature as they come. He’s a clone of dogman. The dogs he can’t hurt into being friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike yourself, he’s too stupid to be evil. He’s just doing what koehler taught him. Ludwig Smith, Another koehler trainer. He’s too cowardly to come out and say what he believes. He throws around lots of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help in koehler’s books. He’s got a link to cindymoron’s page on his sig file… and Terri Willis. The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS TO HURT DOGS. HOWE does varying HOWE you are HURTING the dog make it more INTERESTING? You can’t do something that’s WRONG, right, NO MATTER HOWE hard you try. Dogs DIE because of inappropriate handling and training techniques. There is NEVER any need to jerk and choke and shock or pinch and twist dog’s body parts or beat dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE them. Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}

Response:

>Pop or jerk its all the same.

Then you’re doing it incorrectly. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>If you are choosing a choke collar over a harness I am >>guessing you are trying to train your dog by giving a JERK >>each time he does something negative. >If you jerk or pull on a choke collar, you’re using it >incorrectly. >A choke collar, also called a check chain, should be used as a >sound distraction – when you give it a "pop", it makes a noise. >In fact, the Barbara Woodhouse collar was designed with links >that give off more noise than other choke collars. > I remember her – and her famous skirt. Wonderful programmes she used > to make. > — > Bob.

Do you remember her downfall ? Hanging a very small dog in the air from a choker. Happily, her popularity vanished almost immediately. Patch

Response:

>>If you are choosing a choke collar over a harness I am >guessing you are trying to train your dog by giving a JERK >each time he does something negative. >If you jerk or pull on a choke collar, you’re using it >incorrectly. >A choke collar, also called a check chain, should be used as a >sound distraction – when you give it a "pop", it makes a noise.   >In fact, the Barbara Woodhouse collar was designed with links >that give off more noise than other choke collars.

I remember her – and her famous skirt. Wonderful programmes she used to make. — Bob. The score was Hydrogen 2 and Oxygen 1 when the game was called because of rain.

Response:

>also called a check chain, should be used as a > sound distraction – when you give it a "pop", >Pop or jerk its all the same. Its not a sound distraction device its a pain >control device

Not it isn’t. You should NEVER use it if it inflicts any pain. > – just think about it  many people do not use chain chokes >they use nylon ones … and if it was designed to be a noise signal only it >would not be free reign choke it would be limited so the choke action could >never happen. >snip >Nancy

Why is it you get such pleasure from the suffering of dogs? You are really sick Nancy – you need treatment. — Bob. I tell you what, you should be on  educational TV, you certainly make me feel so much smarter..?

Response:

also called a check chain, should be used as a > sound distraction – when you give it a "pop",

Pop or jerk its all the same. Its not a sound distraction device its a pain control device – just think about it  many people do not use chain chokes they use nylon ones … and if it was designed to be a noise signal only it would not be free reign choke it would be limited so the choke action could never happen. snip Nancy

Response:

And what would be the reason a ‘harness’ would not work? If you are choosing a choke collar over a harness I am guessing you are trying to train your dog by giving a JERK each time he does something negative. Your part in the training routine is to give the dog a ‘reminder’ cue of some sort (the same thing a rider gives a horse when training is implemented by simply ‘reminding’ a 1,000 + lb. animal by applying a few lbs. of knee pressure against the animals flank. It isn’t PHYSICAL power that wins in the end it is MENTAL power.

Response:

>If you are choosing a choke collar over a harness I am >guessing you are trying to train your dog by giving a JERK >each time he does something negative.

If you jerk or pull on a choke collar, you’re using it incorrectly. A choke collar, also called a check chain, should be used as a sound distraction – when you give it a "pop", it makes a noise.   In fact, the Barbara Woodhouse collar was designed with links that give off more noise than other choke collars. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

I find that using a harness is just as affective and much more humane. I guess if you are not going to train the dog at all then choking him into making a choice would be temp. affective. But think about it…is that better in the long run? Begin by teaching your dog to sit/ stay/ come. You can work on that a few min. a day until you get it down. Once you teach him those three commands he will be safe; he will be stable and he will NOT have to be choked in order to make him stop doing something. (and remember…ALL successful training, including guidedogs and police dogs and children and adults,and on and on…is accomplished by using POSITIVE reinforcement not negative. Get a book. Begin the training of those 3 commands and your efforts will pay off for as long as you have this little dog. Good luck

Response:

Suzanne, I will admit right up front that I’d NEVER put a choke or pronged collar on my dog. My reason? My vet suggested I go to the pet store and get a small pronged collar and put it on my wrist and then have the clerk pull it real fast. It hurt!! It also left spots where it scraped my wrist and they bled a little. I would never willingly hurt my best friend that way. The other reason is the man up the street. He started out with a pronged collar on his very large dog and noticed blood one day. Took PooBear in to the vet and found the collar made sores on his neck that bled. The vet was really upset with him (he doesn’t like pronged collars) and said he’d need to get a different type of collar. Well, he did. He got a choke collar for PooBear and thought all would be ok. A week later he noticed how hoarse PooBear sounded when he barked at a cat. Took him in to the vet again and found his larynx had been damaged when Poo pulled against the collar. Nothing could be done about it. Poo never got his bark back but he did get a new collar. A real nice leather one and a harness to wear when he went  on walks or was tied in the yard. Poo is much happier now and so is his owner. We have a nice ID collar on Kaine and use a harness for his walks and whenever we go in the car. He is happy and so are we. Cheryl

Response:

> If used properly, a prong collar is fine (assuming it’s not a young pup). Same > with a regular training collar.  Every dog is different so what works well for > one dog might not for another.  If a regular collar doesn’t work, a prong collar > might.

YES!!!! Halti, slip (NOT a choke, use the correct terminology) or double slip prong. all good for different dogs, different handlers. -Amanda and her slip-collar trained thunder loving dogs.  And her non slip trained thunder fearing dogs.

Response:

Hello amanda, Care to tell us newbies what’s a slip collar?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If used properly, a prong collar is fine (assuming it’s not a young pup). > Same > with a regular training collar.  Every dog is different so what works well > for > one dog might not for another.  If a regular collar doesn’t work, a prong > collar > might. > YES!!!! > Halti, slip (NOT a choke, use the correct terminology) or double slip prong. > all good for different dogs, different handlers. > -Amanda > and her slip-collar trained thunder loving dogs.  And her non slip trained > thunder fearing dogs.

Response:

Thank you, Bre. If you’ve got any questions about the method, just ask. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Gang, > Almost 18 years ago when I got my first Lab, I too used a choke collar > to train her (Please forgive me Barlee for I knew not what I was > doing).  I went to obedience school thinking that I was doing the best > for my dog.  I know today that it was a big mistake. She turned out to > be a great dog but I wonder how much pain and fear I caused her. Choke > collars should be worn on the owners!!! A year ago I got another lab pup > that I began immediately to train with treats and common sense. At 10 > weeks she went to puppy class where I learned to use a clicker. I have > never used a crate with her ( I hate that people tend to use them to > control their dog rather then train them) and she has always had the > freedom of the house and can be left alone when needed without > destroying anything.  In fact I used distraction techniques to stop her > chewing things that were not hers. Only once early on did she destroy a > computer mouse. I continue to train her in obedience with the clicker > method.  For a few weeks I used a gentle leader to stop her pulling. > She has NEVER been slapped, beaten or physically punished in any way. > She is now 14 mos and a wonderfully behaved dog to be around. Walking > her is a pleasure and the lead is only for safety reasons not for > control as she almost always as her eye on me.  Patience, time, > practice, common sense and love have given me this wonderful dog. > Would I have gotten the same result with a choke or prong collar, > probably.  But I would never have the same level of love and trust with > my dog. THAT means everything. > I have read the Lab newsgroup for several weeks and am amazed at the > time and energy that people put into flaming Jerry. I just took the time > to read his manual and I do not see what people have a problem with > here. > He didn’t try to sell me anything. His manual is free to download. > Bre > (Owned by Caley) > simple pronged collars are for weak dog handlers, simple really, chocker > collars are for not so weak handlers, and leather collars are used by > handlers whom know what they are doing > > Ok. I’m probably jumping into the middle of something I’d be better off > just > > staying the heck out of…but I just GOTTA ask: > > What is your take on dogs trained with prong/choke collars that have NO > fear > > of thunder?  Or anything, for that matter?  Just

happy-go-lucky dogs who – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > perform better with the use of a restrictive collar. > > — > > Suzanne  & the Shibas of Snowood > > www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/8361

Response:

Hello David & Janette, > simple pronged collars are for weak dog handlers, simple really,

NO. Pronged choke collars are for simple minded, incompetent, dim witted, handlers. > chocker collars are for not so weak handlers,

Choke collars should only be used as a back up for a flat collar. > and leather collars are used by > handlers whom know what they are doing

Well, why do we still have handlers using pronged choke, and shock collars? I think we’ve summed up the problem, eh? Jerry.

Response:

Hi Gang, Almost 18 years ago when I got my first Lab, I too used a choke collar to train her (Please forgive me Barlee for I knew not what I was doing).  I went to obedience school thinking that I was doing the best for my dog.  I know today that it was a big mistake. She turned out to be a great dog but I wonder how much pain and fear I caused her.  Choke collars should be worn on the owners!!! A year ago I got another lab pup that I began immediately to train with treats and common sense.  At 10 weeks she went to puppy class where I learned to use a clicker. I have never used a crate with her ( I hate that people tend to use them to control their dog rather then train them) and she has always had the freedom of the house and can be left alone when needed without destroying anything.  In fact I used distraction techniques to stop her chewing things that were not hers. Only once early on did she destroy a computer mouse. I continue to train her in obedience with the clicker method.  For a few weeks I used a gentle leader to stop her pulling. She has NEVER been slapped, beaten or physically punished in any way. She is now 14 mos and a wonderfully behaved dog to be around. Walking her is a pleasure and the lead is only for safety reasons not for control as she almost always as her eye on me.  Patience, time, practice, common sense and love have given me this wonderful dog. Would I have gotten the same result with a choke or prong collar, probably.  But I would never have the same level of love and trust with my dog. THAT means everything. I have read the Lab newsgroup for several weeks and am amazed at the time and energy that people put into flaming Jerry. I just took the time to read his manual and I do not see what people have a problem with here. He didn’t try to sell me anything. His manual is free to download.   Bre (Owned by Caley) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> simple pronged collars are for weak dog handlers, simple really, chocker > collars are for not so weak handlers, and leather collars are used by > handlers whom know what they are doing > Ok. I’m probably jumping into the middle of something I’d be better off > just > staying the heck out of…but I just GOTTA ask: > What is your take on dogs trained with prong/choke collars that have NO > fear > of thunder?  Or anything, for that matter?  Just happy-go-lucky dogs who > perform better with the use of a restrictive collar. > — > Suzanne  & the Shibas of Snowood > www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/8361

Response:

Hello kt,

> If used properly,

Sorry kt. There is no way to properly hurt and intimidate dogs to train them. Pronged choke collars overstimulate the parasympathetic nervous system by triggering positive thigmotaxis, and overriding it at the same time, through FEAR. This causes extreme, long lasting anxiety which is expiated through anxiety relief mechanisms such as hyperactivity, obsessive barking, compulsive chewing, pacing, whining, digging, self-mutilation, aggression, seizure activity, and digestive and intestinal disorders. These seldom are attributed to their actual cause. > a prong collar is fine (assuming it’s not a young pup).

Oh? Why would you do some "training" method to an older dog you’d not do to a young pup? That’s anthithetical to everything that makes sense. > Same with a regular training collar.

A "regular" training collar? You mean a regular CHOKE training collar? Choking dogs inhibits learning, inhibits memory recall, limits the dog’s scope and function, and causes anxiety and temperament problems that may result in DEAD DOGS. >  Every dog is different

NO. A dog is a dog. The methods used are different because incompetent trainers use ineffective methods, that requires they find  different methods. Some of us go to inflict pain as a better method. I’m not fond of pain, so I learned to train dogs without hurting them, using only one method. Just like the Army. You don’t see the military using different methods to cater to their trainees. Everyone is stripped, shaved, and dressed in O.D., eats and craps together, and nobody is treated any different than anybody else. There’s strict laws protecting their rights to not be abused, under the UCMJ, and there’s about a 2% failure rate… You got any suggestions to improve that? > so what works well for one dog might not for another.

That’s not the way I see it, speaking only as a professional dog trainer with thirty eight years experience specializing in temperament and behavior problems and protection in giant breed dogs…and a background in military special and psychological warfare. I’ll tell you a little about our "experts" who say all dogs are different. They say that, because they’re incompetent trainers. They say that because they need to defend their right to hurt dogs to train them when they run out of IDEAS and intellect, or when they’re just plain SCARED of the dog. We only hurt and kill what we fear… or do not understand. > If a regular collar doesn’t work, a prong collar might.

You mean if regular choking doesn’t work, a pronged choke might work? Why do you want to hurt dogs to train them? > kat

I’ll tell you why. You simply don’t know any better, or you LIKE to hurt dogs to make yourself feel powerful. Wanna know where my money would be if we were to wager??? DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY            - G.B. Shaw –  "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                  -Leo Tolstoy- Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                -CAVEAT- If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, scruff shake, slap, scold, chin cuff, hit, or punish your dog in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, that you’ve got to be "firm," or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer who knows HOWE. You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY handle and train your dog using non force, non confronatational, scientific and psychological conditioning and deconditioning techniques in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com The Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual is provided compliments of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too). For additional FREE help for any dog or cat behavior questions, please call or write. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Director of Training, Wits’ End Dog Training Director of Research, BIOSOUND Scientific 1611 24th St Orlando, FL 32805 Fax: (208)460-4270 Phone: 1-407-425-5092 http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                    -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                  -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.               -Jerry Howe-

Response:

If used properly, a prong collar is fine (assuming it’s not a young pup).  Same with a regular training collar.  Every dog is different so what works well for one dog might not for another.  If a regular collar doesn’t work, a prong collar might. kat – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ok. I’m probably jumping into the middle of something I’d be better off just > staying the heck out of…but I just GOTTA ask: > What is your take on dogs trained with prong/choke collars that have NO fear > of thunder?  Or anything, for that matter?  Just happy-go-lucky dogs who > perform better with the use of a restrictive collar. > — > Suzanne  & the Shibas of Snowood > www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/8361

Response:

Hello snowood,

> Umm,

Got a little something right… there. Got it. > ok…

Good, better now? Blow your nose. > so if my hunting dog’s mind is wandering during > training classes

Then you’re doing something wrong… > (which, incidentally, are held OUTDOORS)

Lucky you. > until I put the prong or choke collar on him…then he’s plastered to > my leg during the offlead work…how is that illusionary?

Because the dog is more afraid of being hurt, than he desires to work. >  And HOW is it force that he can qualify with high 180s > after 1 year out of classes (read: NO training) and no prong?

Fear might do it. Without fear, you’d maybe be fifteen points higher. > Does this mean that he really IS afraid of thunder?

Probably not. > Is that why he tends to sleep thru storms?

It might have something to do with that shotgun going off now and again??? > Or is he just unconscious from fear?

I suspect he’s more afraid of you, than thunder. Thunder has never reached out and hurt him… > sheesh…

Here, you’ve got another little bit right…. there. Got it. Serviette? j;~} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That they perform better is the problem. They don’t, it’s an > illusion. You limit your dog’s scope and function when you force > control. Jerry.

Response:

simple pronged collars are for weak dog handlers, simple really, chocker collars are for not so weak handlers, and leather collars are used by handlers whom know what they are doing

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok. I’m probably jumping into the middle of something I’d be better off just > staying the heck out of…but I just GOTTA ask: > What is your take on dogs trained with prong/choke collars that have NO fear > of thunder?  Or anything, for that matter?  Just happy-go-lucky dogs who > perform better with the use of a restrictive collar. > — > Suzanne  & the Shibas of Snowood > www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/8361

Response:

> Hello People, > Here’s the deal on phobias like fear of thunder.

   <blah, blah, blah – boring old Jerry blither deleted> > Why do I say there is a correlation between dominant trainers, > pronged or choke collars, and fear of thunder? BECAUSE THAT IS A > FACT.

Tell you what.  Since this is such a well known ‘fact’, please point me towards all the research done to establish this as such. Since you’re such a MORON, Jerry, I thought I’d help you out, here.  Here’s the FACTS regarding the meaning of the word "FACT".  This information is taken from Notre Dame’s "WordNet 1.6" – http://www.notredame.ac.jp/cgi-bin/wn?fact .  There are two ’senses’ of the word that apply here:        2. fact — (a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is                        the case or has happened; “he supported his argument with an impressive                        array of facts” )        4. fact — (a concept whose truth can be proved; “scientific hypotheses are not facts” ) So, being that it is a "FACT" (your word) that there is a correlation between dominant trainers, pronged or choke collars, and fear of thunder, please provide the VERIFICATION of this "FACT".  Please PROVE this concept. Remember, hypotheses are not facts! > You can get all the information you need to <BLAH, BLAH, BLAH> > from FREE the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for > free at http://www.doggydoright.com

So, Jerry…  Why do you always point the reader to a web page DEVOTED to MARKETING your dubious little black box??  How come you don’t just point them to the DIRECT LINK to the WETM??  You *say* you’re not here to SPAM the group by SELLING your unproven black box, yet you INSIST on putting in the URL that takes us DIRECTLY to a page that has in HUGE BOLD FACED TYPE, "Doggy Do Right "?? > BEWARE the forgeries to confuse you, and the warnings offered to > you from our rpdb Gang Of Thugs regarding killfiling my posts and > the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual.

Actually, BEWARE Jerry Howe, LIAR, SPAMMER, TROLL, and CON MAN!  Jerry Howe SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED, as outlined in my well written, organized document posted daily.  I provide the FACTS, where Jerry promises much and delivers NOTHING.