Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > <major clippage including my sig file which was included for some > reason…and to be honest, responding to someone who doesn’t respect > column widths is tough but here goes it) >leash with my dog, but not because it is necessary – I use it because >of leash laws. > I hate to get into this again, but I don’t care how well trained your dog > is, a dog is a dog. And if you decide one day that it’s a person in a fur > suit and a leash is demeaning, well it’s a good way to make road pizza. > And for those of you who don’t think I know what well trained dogs are, > well, if you know who I trained with you would probably revise your > opinion at least a tad. > Anyway, back to the other topics at hand: >I am done posting to this group.  I really feel that the attitudes are hopeless. >Change is scary, but using force when it is not necessary (and in dog training it is >not necessary) is even scarier. > So, since you were called on how you work with a dog via ONLY POSITIVES, > you chose to cut and run? That’s interesting. It’s like, if Sligo was > doing a second go-out, and he said naah, not today, and I said, ok,you’re > the boss, let’s go home and veg out. Cool. If you wanted to discuss the > topic and really get somewhere, you would stick around and non-emotionally > answer anyone’s points. You could even ignore bitchy old me and just > answer the nicer people around here. Eventually maybe you’d get us all to > throw away our pinches, chokes, e collars, riding crops etc etc. But no, > you’re chosing to say "OOOOOH EVIL PEOPLE" and then leave. Somehow it > doesnt’ make a strong argument. >Positive dog training is based on exactly the same theory as training animals at Sea >World.  If you think those animals don’t have a mind of their own you are wrong. > Right. Now, tell me how you use no adversives what so ever in training. > None. Not even ignoring your dog when he’s being evil, or telling him a > no. >dolphin.  So if you can train a dolphin to do routines, why can’t the same be used on >dogs?  I know that it can – and alot more successfully with novice owners than you > I don’t know. Because we have to interact with our dogs 365-24-7? And > can’t stick them back in the tank when they’re being bad? So, if you HAVE > to cut your dog’s nails and he throws a tantrum, you can’t put it off till > his karma tells him it’s cool? Or maybe it’s because when you spend months > training to do something, part of the training is that the dog learns he’s > a team member and he has responsibilities to the team leader (you), and > that he has to fullfill them and if he doesn’t he’s in trouble? >not necessary.  Dog fights are a whole different story.  I won’t bother to go into >that because this group isn’t even receptive to not using force, much less behavior. > Sigh. You know, if you want to tell us this, then tell us. But don’t run > off in a hissy fit just because we all didn’t click and throw you cookies. > people who train dogs are never going to all agree. And you can’t possibly > be a good trainer of mute animals if you can’t reason with us slightly > more evolved ones. You can write and tell us why you do X or how you do Y > or you can just say "you’re mean, I’m out of here". Now that’s sort of > silly. If you really believe in your methods then tell us why and how. > Hey, maybe someone out there will listen to you. >I know of trainers with OTCH, Dog World, etc that only use positive. > I’m sure. But I usually hear more about someone who got wonderful scores > in Novice that way, not someone who did long term trialing of a dog that > way. And how many OTCh people do train that way? ONLY POSITIVES??? NEVER a > ***NO***? Never a "uh oh"!! Never a taking the dog back to the set up and > sending him AGAIN on glove 3? Yes, I am sure that someone blessed with a > perfect dog, wonderful trainer, great timing may be able to do this. But > for us mortals, there will be adversives in training. And again, this > doesn’t mean our dogs come back battered and bruised. I may do an entire > training session with nothing tougher than the witholding of food for lack > of perfectly nailed fronts. Or the use of a dowel on the ground to > convince my dog to drop THERE not HERE. Those are indeed adversives!!! Or > do you see the world as black and white…either the pez dispenser it > doling out prime rib OR I am standing here beating my dog to stop him from > lagging. > Ann, Twzl & Sligo > — > Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me > rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

Sorry about the columns, my computer doesn’t have that problem – is this better? I will try one more time to defend my position. It is extremely hard to do it in writing, that is why I suggested that attending a seminar by John Rogerson who is the expert would be the best. I have received replys that if he doesn’t allow a pinch collar to be used, then they wouldn’t attend.  That is narrow minded. The only negatives that I use are withholding of attention, facial expressions and voice "ah ah" if the dog knows the command.  I don’t correct if the dog doesn’t know the command.  When we used force training we let the dogs go through a series of wrong until they got it right. I am saying teach what you do want and reward for that. What I see in this group is "Unnecassary" force (ie ear pinch, choke and pinch collars, Koehler methods). I have trained many dogs using force (when I didn’t know any better) and have trained many using positive. If a dog knows a command and chooses to ignore it, then I will use a correction depending on the dog – but nothing like what I have read about in this group.  What I have always found with a pinch was that while the collar was on, the forging stopped, but when the collar came off, it began again.  That tells me that all I have trained only the collar, not the problem.  And I have successfully corrected the forging with dominant dogs through the use of games. Again though, this should be learned from an expert not from postings in a newsgroup because what works for one dog may not work for another. Yes, I am guilty of being emotional on the subject of pinch collars and ear pinches and the like.  I have done horrible things to dogs in the name of training and it wasn’t until I learned how to be successful not doing those things.  I am emotional when people seem so resistant to change.  Dogs give us their all no matter what we do to them – it just doesn’t seem fair that we couldn’t learn a more gentler way. Food isn’t really an issue with me because I use it for such a short time – I don’t want a food dependent dog – I want a dog that works for me – and they work for me because I control the games. Carol

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> Also, I read in a > book that if you put one of each on each leg and pull you will be unhurt > on the side with the pinch collar, but may end up with bruises on the > choke chain side.

Only if you tend to bruise easily… A properly fitted and used choke collar should NEVER choke the dog. In fact, the collar shouldn’t really ever close on the neck at all. The action is a quick pop that simply gives a little jolt. — Karen C. "You have no power here!  …Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"

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I have to disagree with the statement that picnch collars are inhumane.  They may look nasty but they are really not.   I had always previously used a choke chain but my dog simply wasn’t repsonding, Everyone told me to get a pinch but I refused to listen becaus e I thought they looked   cruel.  Before I tried the pinch collar on my dog I put both choke chain and pinch collar on my leg and gave myself a "correction".  The pinch collar was any more painful, just different. Trainers may not use collar on animals such as whales at a sea show but if the animal does not respond to the command no harm is done.  If If I need my dog to come and she does not, she may  be killed ( run over by a car etc.)   Life is full of unpleasant consequences natural and otherwise for all sorts of behavior. If your methods work for you fine.  But I still don’t think  using collar or a leash is cruel.  Cruel is when people buy a dog and don’t train it all so that one wants to be around the dog. Debbie

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: I have been training for 10 years.  Only the last 4 have been using totall : methods.  I have a Lab that was force trained with a pinch and yes she l : with me also, but that is a trait of a dog.  Unconditional love.  She is 8   : so only the last 4 years have been totally positive.  She is very dominant, : corrected using methods by John Rogerson (ie eating first, not letting her : bed, controlling all the games, grooming, etc.)  The difference in her atti : remarkable when I switched to a buckle collar.  I started out using treats, : quickly made the transition to games.  See, if I control the games, I cont : dog.  anyone familiar with John Rogerson will recognize that motto as his. : leash with my dog, but not because it is necessary – I use it because of :  I own a retriever that loves to chase things, but she knows that the game : me.   Here you are using observation of your dog to make a reasoned evaluation of what is appropriate for your dog.  That is good. That is the positive method of presenting your ideas.  It is good to consider and evaluate new ideas and approaches.  Applying the same technique to people doesn’t hurt either.  That is, I know that if I am harsh and negative in my posts I often fail to accomplish any goal beyond venting.  A more positive approach is better received. : I am done posting to this group.  I really feel that the attitudes are hopel : Change is scary, but using force when it is not necessary (and in dog trai : not necessary) is even scarier. That is a pretty common response among the "positive only" posters.  If it is difficult to get your point across, give up.  I do hope that is not your approach with dogs.   If your approach is really good, if you really understand how to use it, then apply it in the way you teach people. The word "inhumane" is a loaded one.  If you use it and can’t back it up you have defeated your own attempt at communication. It’s sort of like letting the newly acquired adolescent dog off the leash and then screaming COME! BAD DOG! COME!  The dog is not "bad," you just failed to establish trust and mutual respect, haven’t given it a very good reason to come, and have given it a very good reason not to come. If I fail to communicate, and if the response I get is not to my liking, the first thing I examine is my technique for trying to elicit the desired behavior. I recommend it to you. : that because this group isn’t even receptive to not using force, much less Pish posh.  This group consists of a lot of people.  Some more verbal than others.  There are people in this group who may even agree with you.  There is a very wide spectrum of people sharing a wide variety of ideas.  This group is not so monochromatic as you make it appear.  If you have ideas to share, then share them. : I know of trainers with OTCH, Dog World, etc that only use positive.   I think it is entirely possible for someone to train using only positive.  There are, however, a lot of unstated variables in making such a claim.  Anyway to say that positive works is distinctly different from saying another technique is "inhumane."  Take a couple deep breaths and see if you can put your knowledge of positive training methods to work for you in teaching people, as well as dogs. BTW – would you please hit your return key every 74 characters or so. Lots of newsreaders have no scroll bar and your words are off the screen and unreadable. — Diane Blackman   _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _ Failure is when you quit trying.

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>I do not believe they are the right tool for all dogs.  For >many dogs a pinch collar is indeed unnecessary, and since it has this >baseless emotional response it is to be avoided when unnecessary. > In some instances it is actively the wrong tool, and should be avoided >because it gets undesireable responses from the dog.  For some dogs >it is a wonderful tool because it is self correcting and thus avoids >a stressful interaction between dog and handler.

Thank you Diane for a VERY good post! I also did not believe in the use of a "pinch collar" until I saw one used correctly to aid in the training of a very stubborn Akita. The dog was massive at age 1 1/2 and had had no leash training at all. Trying to control/train this dog without the use of a pinch collar would have been difficult if not impossible and frustrating and possibly dangerous for all involved. The collar was used temporarily, and when the dog had learned some manners, regular training with a regular collar worked well. >I think it is critical that we think about the basis on which we >make conclusions about the appropriateness of training tools and >techniques.  It is important because without that analysis we may >indeed be using unnecessary physical or mental force.  It is also >important because our human prejudices may lead us to use tools >that are more distressing to the dog simply because we make >decisions without observation and analysis. >Diane Blackman  

I agree with your comments. Not only where dogs are concerned but in life as well. If you have not the proper tools, or the ability and knowledge to use them properly, a job becomes much more difficult to accomplish! Cat

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: : Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side : of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more : to positive training than praise.  Dogs that have to be controlled with : a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The : dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person. Do you have some surveys of dogs to back this claim up?  I would be interested in hearing their opinion, and it sounds like you have asked a few.  : :  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers : at Sea World don’t use collars… : Do they have many run away dolphins?

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> Dogs that have to be controlled with > a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The > dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person.

I would say this statement indicates you don’t understand the proper use of a pinch collar.  When you are doing high level training using a pinch it is not because you need it to control the dog.  It is because it allows fine tuning and subtle communication.  With some dogs it can even be used to raise the level of excitement and enjoyment.  What I like about a pinch is that it allows a broader range of effective communication and correction than other collars, from very gentle to very forceful.  This allows you to tune your correciton to the dog and the circumstances. It is also unlikely to cause physical damage, soemthing I worry about with a choke or a halter. >  A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and > leash – the dog chooses to be with you.  Don’t take my word for it – see > for yourself.  What do you have to lose?  

Well, my dog, for one. I don’t have a safely confined area where I can do much training (small house and postage stamp yard).  I would be interested in seeing you walk down the sidewalk of a busy street where encounter lots of people, other dogs, occasional cats, cany cars etc with a collarless, leashless sighthound, scenthound, or terrier.  Yes, you might do it successfully, once or maybe evne quite a few times, but if I am walking that street daily with my dog, I think I’ll opt for the safety of a collar and leash. >  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers > at Sea World don’t use collars…

The animals at Sea World are also executing carefully trained routines in a familiar environment with fish being tossed at them every couple of behaviors. And if the whales, dolphins, or seals decide they don’t want to perform, they don’t have to.  I have been to several shows at several different oceanaria and I don’t remember seeing one where an animal didn’t refuse a command, sometimes never performing it, other times doing it after the trainers refocused the animals attention.  I particularly remember once when a large seal charged into the audience, causing several tense minutes.  I was impressed with the way the trainers managed to recover the animal and get it back under control, but the didn’t try to continue with the show. Actually, I find clicker training quite interesting, and use it to suppliment other methods with my current dog.  I intend to start my next pup with it and see where it will take me, but I would be very surprised if we would be able to accomplish everything necessary without occasionally "telling" the dog "you MUST do what I say, and you MUST do it now, just ‘cuase I say so." If you think that is an unfair requirement, so be it, but it is that kind of compliance that gives my dogs a measure of freedom in their lives. Linda

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> Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side > of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more > to positive training than praise.

Let’s see, so you don’t even say the word "no"? Because using positive training 100% would mean never using *any* negative words, actions, etc. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a little bit of negativity (like the word "no") in dog training as long as there is also praise for the acceptable behaviour. We do that with our own *children*, so why not with dogs? > Dogs that have to be controlled with > a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The > dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person. >  A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and > leash – the dog chooses to be with you

Interesting concept, but my dog will prove you wrong. I have a dog who used to pull quite a bit when walking several years ago. We used a choke collar (which is worse than a pinch collar) on him. Does he want to be with us? YES! In fact, I can now walk him off leash without worrying one bit. He walks a little ways ahead of me, then waits for me to catch up, then continues on. If something interesting goes by, he thinks about chasing it, but doesn’t. He stays with me. My dog loves *people*. Anyone in the family is just his best friend. He’s a real people dog and constantly hangs around us. He chooses to be with me even after I used a choke collar on him. In another post, Diane was asking you for facts to back up your statements. I’m wondering if you really have any? I’m sure everyone on this newsgroup has a dog who loves them and chooses to be with them even though they’ve used some negative reinforcement. Maybe their dog isn’t reliable off leash yet, but that really doesn’t show you whether the dog loves you or not. As someone else stated, retrievers and sighthounds and many other dogs love to chase those squirrels and cats that cross your path. They’re not running away because they hate their owner. They’re running away because there’s a cool animal to chase. It’s their *instinct*. And I’ll bet they always come back because they know where their home is and where there is someone they love… their owner. By the way, there are *many* people on this newsgroup who use positive reinforcement *most* of the time. And *most* dogs are going to need some negative reinforcement, even if it’s just a "no" every now and then. Please don’t accuse the entire newsgroup of being cruel or whatever. You obviously haven’t read *many* of the posts here in the last couple months. In fact, there was even a thread on positive/negative reinforcement going around (before it mutated into a flamewar which had nothing to do with the subject matter). Please, get some facts to back up your accusations before you start throwing them around. We’re not all evil people who beat our dogs. We’re caring, loving dog owners who for the most part use many positive reinforcement methods, but when it’s needed, many of us use negative (but not cruel or inhumane) methods. If you don’t agree with a method, fine. Just don’t accuse someone of bad things just because you disagree with them. If it works for their dog and their dog is happy, it’s probably an ok method for that dog. — Vera Casteel                  Electrical Engineering —

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<major clippage including my sig file which was included for some reason…and to be honest, responding to someone who doesn’t respect column widths is tough but here goes it) >leash with my dog, but not because it is necessary – I use it because >of leash laws.

I hate to get into this again, but I don’t care how well trained your dog is, a dog is a dog. And if you decide one day that it’s a person in a fur suit and a leash is demeaning, well it’s a good way to make road pizza. And for those of you who don’t think I know what well trained dogs are, well, if you know who I trained with you would probably revise your opinion at least a tad. Anyway, back to the other topics at hand: >I am done posting to this group.  I really feel that the attitudes are hopeless.   >Change is scary, but using force when it is not necessary (and in dog training it is >not necessary) is even scarier.

So, since you were called on how you work with a dog via ONLY POSITIVES, you chose to cut and run? That’s interesting. It’s like, if Sligo was doing a second go-out, and he said naah, not today, and I said, ok,you’re the boss, let’s go home and veg out. Cool. If you wanted to discuss the topic and really get somewhere, you would stick around and non-emotionally answer anyone’s points. You could even ignore bitchy old me and just answer the nicer people around here. Eventually maybe you’d get us all to throw away our pinches, chokes, e collars, riding crops etc etc. But no, you’re chosing to say "OOOOOH EVIL PEOPLE" and then leave. Somehow it doesnt’ make a strong argument. >Positive dog training is based on exactly the same theory as training animals at Sea >World.  If you think those animals don’t have a mind of their own you are wrong.  

Right. Now, tell me how you use no adversives what so ever in training. None. Not even ignoring your dog when he’s being evil, or telling him a no. >dolphin.  So if you can train a dolphin to do routines, why can’t the same be used on >dogs?  I know that it can – and alot more successfully with novice owners than you

I don’t know. Because we have to interact with our dogs 365-24-7? And can’t stick them back in the tank when they’re being bad? So, if you HAVE to cut your dog’s nails and he throws a tantrum, you can’t put it off till his karma tells him it’s cool? Or maybe it’s because when you spend months training to do something, part of the training is that the dog learns he’s a team member and he has responsibilities to the team leader (you), and that he has to fullfill them and if he doesn’t he’s in trouble? >not necessary.  Dog fights are a whole different story.  I won’t bother to go into >that because this group isn’t even receptive to not using force, much less behavior.

Sigh. You know, if you want to tell us this, then tell us. But don’t run off in a hissy fit just because we all didn’t click and throw you cookies. people who train dogs are never going to all agree. And you can’t possibly be a good trainer of mute animals if you can’t reason with us slightly more evolved ones. You can write and tell us why you do X or how you do Y or you can just say "you’re mean, I’m out of here". Now that’s sort of silly. If you really believe in your methods then tell us why and how. Hey, maybe someone out there will listen to you. >I know of trainers with OTCH, Dog World, etc that only use positive.  

I’m sure. But I usually hear more about someone who got wonderful scores in Novice that way, not someone who did long term trialing of a dog that way. And how many OTCh people do train that way? ONLY POSITIVES??? NEVER a ***NO***? Never a "uh oh"!! Never a taking the dog back to the set up and sending him AGAIN on glove 3? Yes, I am sure that someone blessed with a perfect dog, wonderful trainer, great timing may be able to do this. But for us mortals, there will be adversives in training. And again, this doesn’t mean our dogs come back battered and bruised. I may do an entire training session with nothing tougher than the witholding of food for lack of perfectly nailed fronts. Or the use of a dowel on the ground to convince my dog to drop THERE not HERE. Those are indeed adversives!!! Or do you see the world as black and white…either the pez dispenser it doling out prime rib OR I am standing here beating my dog to stop him from lagging. Ann, Twzl & Sligo — Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side >of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more > I honestly can’t think of anyone who trains for obedience trials, and who > is doing a good job at it, who is using pure positives. This is the > biggest diservice I can think of for novice trainers. They get to a > certain point with their dogs, and can’t motivate them with positive > things, and think, gee, I’m a sucky trainer…XXX can train HER dog with > sweeteness and light, and here I am thinking of taking Phideux and doing a > collar twist to get him to pick up that dumbbell. > I have heard too many reports that the so called positive only trainers > are not always so positive. I would rather train HONESTLY, with needed > corrections and yes at times force, then sit here and say oh I would never > do X or my dog is so wonderful and we have such a rapport that I would > never have to do Y. Here’s a clue: dogs have minds of their own. And no > matter how much they love you they will test you or decide one day that > they have other fish to fry. At that point you can either stop your > training session for the day or you can work through it. I chose to work > through it as the dog has to know that when we are going to work,  ***I*** > decide when the work is over. Why? Because when I pay $20 to go into the > ring, I want a dog who understands that we are going to work till that > last "exercise finished" from the judge. On the pet dog scale, a pet has > to know that when you tell him to do something, he must do it. Dogs who > don’t learn this basic fact of doggy life too often wind up in a shelter > or in rescue. > Can you train basic pet stuff via positive methods only? Sure, if you have > wonderful timing and great dog sense. Can the average clueless but well > intentioned new dog owner do it? Probably not. I’m talking people who > forget that they have a dog on a leash, and let the dog wander around > while they talk to their newfound dog class buddies about what was on > Oprah. >to positive training than praise.  Dogs that have to be controlled with >a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The >dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person. > Oh please. What evidence do you have for this? A friend of mine uses a > pinch to correct her dog who likes to heel by smushing his right cheek > onto her leg…think that dog doesn’t want to be with her? I use a pinch > on my dog to correct forging. If this has harmed his attitude I have yet > to see it. And if my dog doesn’t love me, this is news to me. My dog has > been force trained, ear pinched, worn a pinch collar and an electronic > collar, and he still follows me where ever I go, dodges my steps night and > day, and falls asleep on the top of the couch, with his paws dangling into > my face, his breath disturbing my eye brows, as I lie on the couch, > reading. He sometimes is so happy to do recalls with me that he comes in > at a full bore gallop, bouncing off of my chest and up to my face to kiss > me. I can’t think of any creature on earth, including my husband, who > loves me so totally and completely. > My dog has been trained via a combination of positive methods and > corrections. You can’t tell a dog 100 yards or more from you and out in > the field, that if he would only come back to you now rather than next > Wednesday, he will get a cookie. It just isn’t that easy. And it is a > disservice to new dog owners to pretend otherwise. Attitudes like yours > can result in dogs who trully don’t understand who is alpha and in charge. > A confused dog, owned by a newcomer to dogs, can be a very bad dog indeed. > A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and >leash – the dog chooses to be with you.  Don’t take my word for it – see > Yes, yes, and this is a great thing to tell to all the lurking new puppy > owners!! Toss away that evil leash and collar!! After all sea mammals > don’t need them. But guess what? Although maybe you can train a dog to not > need this stuff…most people can not. And to tell them that they can and > should train their dogs this way is not good. An unleashed untrained dog > too easily winds up a dead dog. I would never tell pet people that pure > positives are the way to go. Remember my example of the clueless holding a > leash and gabbing with someone? That is all too typical of people. Unless > you make dog training your full time love and enjoyment and really learn > to read a dog, you are going to mess up. And that mess up can cause a dog > fight, a lose dog or worse. > I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers >at Sea World don’t use collars… > Right and Dolphins don’t compete in obedience trials or even have to walk > through a crowd of people down a street. While there may be much to learn > from the trainers at Sea World, it is important to remember that they do > this stuff for a living, and spend a great deal of time learning how to do > it. Pet people who spend an hour in class each week, and can not be > bothered to even take the dog out once a week to work it inbetween classes > are just never going to approach that ideal of animal training. > If you took the tact of saying "positives should be used as much as > possible when training a dog, but that you may have to use outright force > at times", I would agree with you. As much as possible training should be > fun and a good experience for all concerned. But there comes a time when > the dog has to be told that he must do X. And if you can’t get him to > understand this in a positive light, well, you may have to force the > issue. This doesn’t mean that you wake up one morning and slap an > electronic collar on him, or pinch his ear off. But it does mean that you > introduce the concept of "yes you will do as I tell you to do" early on, > in a fair manner. > I think the best example of pure positives VERY BADLY used can be seen in > the Novice A ring. You will see dogs who were incorrecly food trained, who > were basically taught to follow a cookie around, rather than to learn > where heel position is. I can’t tell you how many Novice A dogs flunk in > the off lead heeling exercise, as they  have not a clue as to how to heel, > only how to follow a cookie. That is not training and it is not fair to a > dog to think that it is. Once that leash is off and there is no food, a > dog either knows where heel position is, and how to stay in it, or he is > left to muddle about the ring, perhaps visiting the nice judge while the > owner heels around on her own. > Ann, Twzl & Sligo > — > Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me > rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

I have been training for 10 years.  Only the last 4 have been using totally positive methods.  I have a Lab that was force trained with a pinch and yes she loves to be with me also, but that is a trait of a dog.  Unconditional love.  She is 8 years old, so only the last 4 years have been totally positive.  She is very dominant, which I corrected using methods by John Rogerson (ie eating first, not letting her sleep on bed, controlling all the games, grooming, etc.)  The difference in her attitude was remarkable when I switched to a buckle collar.  I started out using treats, but quickly made the transition to games.  See, if I control the games, I control the dog.  anyone familiar with John Rogerson will recognize that motto as his.  I use a leash with my dog, but not because it is necessary – I use it because of leash laws.  I own a retriever that loves to chase things, but she knows that the games are with me.   I am done posting to this group.  I really feel that the attitudes are hopeless.   Change is scary, but using force when it is not necessary (and in dog training it is not necessary) is even scarier. Positive dog training is based on exactly the same theory as training animals at Sea World.  If you think those animals don’t have a mind of their own you are wrong.   Whereas you can force your dog to do something, you cannot force a sea lion or dolphin.  So if you can train a dolphin to do routines, why can’t the same be used on dogs?  I know that it can – and alot more successfully with novice owners than you give credit for.  I would never tell someone not to use a leash, I am saying it is not necessary.  Dog fights are a whole different story.  I won’t bother to go into that because this group isn’t even receptive to not using force, much less behavior. I know of trainers with OTCH, Dog World, etc that only use positive.   Good luck to all of you.

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Together) writes:

<<A very good post snipped>> And if I might add,  How does a dog (or other pack animal) learn in a pack?  It is not all positive reinforcement.  A good number of corrections are made by the dam or alpha dog.  These corrections are usually swift and direct on the occurance of the misdeed. Whether the correction is a facial expression, a low growl, a strong growl, a quick cuff or a severe scruff shake.   They are given quickly on the occurance and then once given it is forgotten.  Good deeds get ear and face washes and play time.  Bad deeds get swift correction, the correction is not thought out but is almost reflex on the part of the dam or alpha.  This is how a dog is trained and treated in its pack. This is the learning method that the dog knows instinctively.  To try to alter this ingrained expectation with your "humane" training procedures tends to cause more initial confusion in the dog.  Watch your dog in its interactions with you and with other animals and ask yourself how it would train you to do a certain task.  Yes some dogs are very manipulative and will coax you to do something for them now and again, but are you trained to do it for them with 100 percent compliance?  And that is what anyone who is in competitive  obedience or field work requires of their dog.  100 percent compliance regardless of weather conditions, environment, surroundings, etc. Yes, I am like Ann in my training style.  I will use what ever method seems to work with a particular dog.  Some dogs will respond well to a soft voice, while others need a very firm and expressive command voice. I have used about every type of training collar around.  From a plain flat breakaway collar, choke, pinch, halti, e-collar and prong collar. All have their places.  I have used more jerky, rollover, liver, peanut butter, cheeseballs, hotdogs, etc than I care to think about. These also have their places.  I have used high praise voice, strong command voice, low growl voice, collar pinches, ear pulls, scruff shakes, and submissive rollovers.  These too have their place.  The key to any animal training is to know when to use which method.  After 20 years of dog training, I am still learning.  And I don’t think I’ll ever know it all.  Each dog responds to certain stimuli better than other stimuli. Certain breeds are better at certain lessons than other breeds. But nearly all will respond and learn if the right stimuli is used.  And this includes corrective reinforcement.  To remove corrective reinforcemnt from your training methods deprives you of a very powerful and understood (by the dog) technique in dealing with its actions.  It is the prime way it would be trained in the pack.   Tom

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:  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers : at Sea World don’t use collars… And killer whales and dophins haven’t been domesticated for thousands of years. It *does* make a difference in how they can be trained. April with Levi and Caper, the Border Collie Hurricanes

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>:  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers >: at Sea World don’t use collars… >And killer whales and dophins haven’t been domesticated for thousands >of years. It *does* make a difference in how they can be trained.

Not to mention (sorry, dog lovers) that they are vastly more intelligent than the average dog. Not to mention the average dog owner Jessica & Kosh (who wears his pinch collar when needed, and still follows me all around the house and sleeps under my computer chair) and the multi-species Home of Chaos "Oh sure!  But what’s the speed of dark?"

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|> > |> > |> > >Pinch collars are not necessary.  In fact they are inhumane.  Some |> > >speakers won’t allow dogs at their seminar wearing a pinch collar – now |> > >that is making a statement. |> > |> > Oh? Which ones? Certainly NOT Terri Arnold who got a 200 last weekend in |> > Novice B with her dog. If you look through her books, you will see much |> > use of a pinch collar. A correctly used pinch collar is not at all |> > inhumane. I would be interested in which seminar givers don’t let people |> > bring dogs wearing pinch collars. I wouldn’t be interested in attending |> > such things. Given your first statement above, I do believe you fit into the "not willing to see the positive side of training" category. Your mind is obviously closed against pinch collars. |>  A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and |> leash – the dog chooses to be with you. Uh huh.  And when that chipmunk zips right under my Golden’s nose, he’d choose to be with me rather than chasing it all over creation? "Doesn’t even need a collar and leash"?  What world do you live in?  Sorry, but when one owns a RETRIEVER or one of the SIGHTHOUNDS, one knows about the need for a collar and leash. |> Don’t take my word for it – see for yourself.  What do you |> have to lose?  Isn’t dog training an on going learning |> experience that may include changes of attitude? Why, yes it is!  You may also benefit by learning the correct method of using a pinch collar thereby resulting in a change of *your* attitude. |>  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers |> at Sea World don’t use collars… Wow!  I didn’t know they made pinch collars big enough for an Orca! /andrea (Sea World, dogs and collars?) & Max (collar & leash) — Andrea Dec                          (Clever stuff under consideration) Hewlett-Packard Company             but those I do have are not supported                                     by HP.                            

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Pinch collars are thought by some to be more humane than "choke " collars.  Choking is not a natural sensation for a dog, and can scare it, but the pinching sensation is similar to a mother’s teeth during a gentle correction.  Therefore the pinching is lesss scary.  Also, I read in a book that if you put one of each on each leg and pull you will be unhurt on the side with the pinch collar, but may end up with bruises on the choke chain side.

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: Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side : of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more : to positive training than praise.  Dogs that have to be controlled with : a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The : dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person. It is not so obvious. You didn’t offer any "positive side of training." Instead you made an accusation.  People want to know the basis for that accusation.  Saying something is "inhumane" doesn’t mean that it is "inhumane."   And to say that a dog that has to wear a pinch collar "doesn’t want to be with that person" is similarly without any evidence whatsoever.  It creates emotional charge, without enlightenment. To be persuasive marshall the facts and present them.  Want to present an opinion that anyone train any and all dogs without using a pinch collar? then do so – with facts so that people can investigate and observe.  No need to tell people a collar is "inhumane" if the only point is an opinion that it is unnecessary.   Calling something "inhumane" when it is not has the very significant vice of robbing that word of its meaning.  I would hope to reserve use of the word for evil, to reflect the unnecessary infliction of physical or mental pain, not mere difference in training technique.   It was, in fact, the presentation of observable facts – instead of mere emotional statements – that lead me to change my beliefs on pinch collars.  I, too, once thought them to be awful devices. Having seen them, felt them and used them I put my prejudice aside and opened myself up to receiving the information.   I do not believe they are the right tool for all dogs.  For many dogs a pinch collar is indeed unnecessary, and since it has this baseless emotional response it is to be avoided when unnecessary.  In some instances it is actively the wrong tool, and should be avoided because it gets undesireable responses from the dog.  For some dogs it is a wonderful tool because it is self correcting and thus avoids a stressful interaction between dog and handler. I think it is critical that we think about the basis on which we make conclusions about the appropriateness of training tools and techniques.  It is important because without that analysis we may indeed be using unnecessary physical or mental force.  It is also important because our human prejudices may lead us to use tools that are more distressing to the dog simply because we make decisions without observation and analysis. — Diane Blackman   _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _ Be true to your own principles, and hold to them, else complain not when the world runs contrary.

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>Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side >of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more

I honestly can’t think of anyone who trains for obedience trials, and who is doing a good job at it, who is using pure positives. This is the biggest diservice I can think of for novice trainers. They get to a certain point with their dogs, and can’t motivate them with positive things, and think, gee, I’m a sucky trainer…XXX can train HER dog with sweeteness and light, and here I am thinking of taking Phideux and doing a collar twist to get him to pick up that dumbbell. I have heard too many reports that the so called positive only trainers are not always so positive. I would rather train HONESTLY, with needed corrections and yes at times force, then sit here and say oh I would never do X or my dog is so wonderful and we have such a rapport that I would never have to do Y. Here’s a clue: dogs have minds of their own. And no matter how much they love you they will test you or decide one day that they have other fish to fry. At that point you can either stop your training session for the day or you can work through it. I chose to work through it as the dog has to know that when we are going to work,  ***I*** decide when the work is over. Why? Because when I pay $20 to go into the ring, I want a dog who understands that we are going to work till that last "exercise finished" from the judge. On the pet dog scale, a pet has to know that when you tell him to do something, he must do it. Dogs who don’t learn this basic fact of doggy life too often wind up in a shelter or in rescue. Can you train basic pet stuff via positive methods only? Sure, if you have wonderful timing and great dog sense. Can the average clueless but well intentioned new dog owner do it? Probably not. I’m talking people who forget that they have a dog on a leash, and let the dog wander around while they talk to their newfound dog class buddies about what was on Oprah. >to positive training than praise.  Dogs that have to be controlled with >a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The >dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person.

Oh please. What evidence do you have for this? A friend of mine uses a pinch to correct her dog who likes to heel by smushing his right cheek onto her leg…think that dog doesn’t want to be with her? I use a pinch on my dog to correct forging. If this has harmed his attitude I have yet to see it. And if my dog doesn’t love me, this is news to me. My dog has been force trained, ear pinched, worn a pinch collar and an electronic collar, and he still follows me where ever I go, dodges my steps night and day, and falls asleep on the top of the couch, with his paws dangling into my face, his breath disturbing my eye brows, as I lie on the couch, reading. He sometimes is so happy to do recalls with me that he comes in at a full bore gallop, bouncing off of my chest and up to my face to kiss me. I can’t think of any creature on earth, including my husband, who loves me so totally and completely. My dog has been trained via a combination of positive methods and corrections. You can’t tell a dog 100 yards or more from you and out in the field, that if he would only come back to you now rather than next Wednesday, he will get a cookie. It just isn’t that easy. And it is a disservice to new dog owners to pretend otherwise. Attitudes like yours can result in dogs who trully don’t understand who is alpha and in charge. A confused dog, owned by a newcomer to dogs, can be a very bad dog indeed. > A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and >leash – the dog chooses to be with you.  Don’t take my word for it – see

Yes, yes, and this is a great thing to tell to all the lurking new puppy owners!! Toss away that evil leash and collar!! After all sea mammals don’t need them. But guess what? Although maybe you can train a dog to not need this stuff…most people can not. And to tell them that they can and should train their dogs this way is not good. An unleashed untrained dog too easily winds up a dead dog. I would never tell pet people that pure positives are the way to go. Remember my example of the clueless holding a leash and gabbing with someone? That is all too typical of people. Unless you make dog training your full time love and enjoyment and really learn to read a dog, you are going to mess up. And that mess up can cause a dog fight, a lose dog or worse. > I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers >at Sea World don’t use collars…

Right and Dolphins don’t compete in obedience trials or even have to walk through a crowd of people down a street. While there may be much to learn from the trainers at Sea World, it is important to remember that they do this stuff for a living, and spend a great deal of time learning how to do it. Pet people who spend an hour in class each week, and can not be bothered to even take the dog out once a week to work it inbetween classes are just never going to approach that ideal of animal training. If you took the tact of saying "positives should be used as much as possible when training a dog, but that you may have to use outright force at times", I would agree with you. As much as possible training should be fun and a good experience for all concerned. But there comes a time when the dog has to be told that he must do X. And if you can’t get him to understand this in a positive light, well, you may have to force the issue. This doesn’t mean that you wake up one morning and slap an electronic collar on him, or pinch his ear off. But it does mean that you introduce the concept of "yes you will do as I tell you to do" early on, in a fair manner. I think the best example of pure positives VERY BADLY used can be seen in the Novice A ring. You will see dogs who were incorrecly food trained, who were basically taught to follow a cookie around, rather than to learn where heel position is. I can’t tell you how many Novice A dogs flunk in the off lead heeling exercise, as they  have not a clue as to how to heel, only how to follow a cookie. That is not training and it is not fair to a dog to think that it is. Once that leash is off and there is no food, a dog either knows where heel position is, and how to stay in it, or he is left to muddle about the ring, perhaps visiting the nice judge while the owner heels around on her own. Ann, Twzl & Sligo — Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Pinch collars are not necessary.  In fact they are inhumane.  Some >speakers won’t allow dogs at their seminar wearing a pinch collar – now >that is making a statement. > Oh? Which ones? Certainly NOT Terri Arnold who got a 200 last weekend in > Novice B with her dog. If you look through her books, you will see much > use of a pinch collar. A correctly used pinch collar is not at all > inhumane. I would be interested in which seminar givers don’t let people > bring dogs wearing pinch collars. I wouldn’t be interested in attending > such things. > Ann, Twzl & Sligo > — > Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me > rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

Scores really don’t mean that much I don’t think.  Amy Ammen gets high scores and she is very hard on a dog.  John Rogerson won’t allow the use of a pinch collar.  Do yourself a favor and attend at least one of his seminars.  It will change you and dogs life.  At least it won’t do any harm and it is well worth it. Its obvious that this newsgroup is not willing to see the positive side of training…100%. These people use praise, but there is so much more to positive training than praise.  Dogs that have to be controlled with a pinch are missing the key ingredient for dog/owner relationship. The dog that has to wear a pinch collar DOESN’T want to be with that person.  A dog trained using positive means only doesn’t even need a collar and leash – the dog chooses to be with you.  Don’t take my word for it – see for yourself.  What do you have to lose?  Isn’t dog training an on going learning experience that may include changes of attitude?  I wish you all good luck and pray for a change in attitude – trainers at Sea World don’t use collars… Carol

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: Pinch collars are not necessary.  In fact they are inhumane.  Some : speakers won’t allow dogs at their seminar wearing a pinch collar – now : that is making a statement. I understand how they look.  I’ve felt how they feel.  Can you describe objective observations that a properly used pinch collar causes (1) pain (as opposed to surprise) or (2) mental trauma or (3) any other objective observeable problems when the collar is used without undue force?   I can understand why someone might choose not to use one, it is an individual choice.  However, I try (not always succeeding) to be able to offer factual observations before I will state something is "inhumane"  For example, I observe the body language of the dog. Is it cowering, is it nervous, does it seem unusually touchy, or, in contrast are the head, tail and ears in positions of interest and eagerness full of confidence?   I am confident that for many dogs that you could not identify the ones wearing pinch collars, as against those wearing other collars, merely be observing the demeanor of the dog.  The possible exception is that if you chose the dogs walking with out pulling and without verbal or physical reminders from the handler that your chances of correct identification would be higher. I am further confident that for most dogs you could not identify which ones had been wearing pinch collars by the physical condition of the dog, except that there may be less wear on the neck because the pinch does not crush and rub the fur in the way a flat collar does. Since I have been unable to observe adverse consequences I would very much appreciate any insight you can offer as to objective observations.  I can then ask a neutral party to observe dogs, some of which are and some of which are not wearing pinch collars, and see if there is cause for concern that I am missing. Of course I am not talking about abusive use, such as yanking back with all one’s strength, or "hanging" a dog by its collar, nor leaving the collar on at all times, or when tied.  In these instances I would agree that either the technique or the collar itself are inappropriately used and likely to cause physical or mental harm. — Diane Blackman   _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _ You must speak to be heard.  Silence assumes assent.

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Snug to the neck (as close as you can get to behind the ears)  when not pinching. It’s hard to get on, but at least Moon is patient with my fumbles. Jane Webb Moon and Muddle

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> Snug to the neck (as close as you can get to behind the ears)  when not > pinching. It’s hard to get on, but at least Moon is patient with my > fumbles. > Jane Webb > Moon and Muddle

Pinch collars are not necessary.  In fact they are inhumane.  Some speakers won’t allow dogs at their seminar wearing a pinch collar – now that is making a statement.

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>Pinch collars are not necessary.  In fact they are inhumane.  Some >speakers won’t allow dogs at their seminar wearing a pinch collar – now >that is making a statement.

Oh? Which ones? Certainly NOT Terri Arnold who got a 200 last weekend in Novice B with her dog. If you look through her books, you will see much use of a pinch collar. A correctly used pinch collar is not at all inhumane. I would be interested in which seminar givers don’t let people bring dogs wearing pinch collars. I wouldn’t be interested in attending such things. Ann, Twzl & Sligo — Anyone who is such a scaredy cccatt that they MAIl their flames to me rather than posting them, will see them posted as a followup to the thread.

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What is the proper fit for a pinch collar, and the proper placement on the dog’s neck? Terri

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>What is the proper fit for a pinch collar, and the proper placement >on the dog’s neck? >Terri

Terri Proper fit is such that relaxed the collar just fits around the dogs neck. You are not using the prongs to poke or pinch the dog, but rather to constrict the space around its throat.  Positioning is the same as a choke, high on the neck just behind the ears. The collar may need to be repostioned frequently!  The correction is also just like with a choke, a very quick pop and release.  Do not maintain continual pressure and nag the dog.  Rather use a quick pop and release and another quick pop and release if necessary.  If the dog continues to pull on the leash, then drop back and do leash training.  Once the dog is leash trained, then you can continue whatever other training you have in mind. The most common error with either a choke or a pinch is the attempted use of them in lieu of leash training (although either can be used in leash training). Tom

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>What is the proper fit for a pinch collar, and the proper placement >on the dog’s neck? >Terri

Hi A pinch collar can be a very effective training tool but it can also spoil a good dog very quickly.  I like to leave 1 or two fingers between the neck and th collar.  When there is no pressure on the leash, it should not be causing the dog distress.  It is designed to be used in short, sharp, corrective snaps – not continual lugging.  The snap should only be as hard as it takes to get the dogs attention and bring him to heel.  When he comes to heel, the reward is that the collar no longer contacts his neck along with a lot of praise from you. If the snap is to gentle, the dog will have no respect for the correction or for you and will continue to pull.  If he cries out like he is really hurt and then some, and he cowers away from you, then you are to strong.  You should really watch a someone uses this collar and see its effect before using it (at an obdience class etc.).  I would err on the side a being a bit soft at first and you will soon find out where the respect begins but fear and anger do not – every dog is different.  It should only take a few lessons and then go back the regular leash.  No respect – then do it all over.  Patience and lots of praise when he does it right will make things go very smoothly – this is only a training tool for most dogs.

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tough, very active dog. "self correcting (pinch collars) can readily be made smaller or larger by taking away or adding links, but get one heavy enough for your dog – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And I am a big believer in the Herman Sprenger German collars – the difference >in quality is really obvious. >What size collar (mm) would be appropriate for a 50 lb, 7 month old Australian >Shepherd? >Thank you…Beth

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I guess that is what I was asking.  How heavy should the links be? Beth

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Quote:   How heavy should the links be? Thje closer together they are, generally, the better. Allowing for the fact that they have to reach through the fur. Jane Webb Mudpie & Moonpie

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The Pinch Collar: I have never used the pinch collar as a correction.  I have only used it as a communication device.  My dogs have only had a buckle collar or a pinch collar their entire careeer.   The pinch collar is a wonderful tool given the proper application.   I always used the smallest links to get through the coat. The Medium link seemed to be to big.  The small link, was able to penetrate the coat. Betsy and the Belgians – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Quote: >  How heavy should the links be? >Thje closer together they are, generally, the better. Allowing for the fact >that they have to reach through the fur. >Jane Webb >Mudpie & Moonpie

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i know great people who use the pinch collars, but they just make me wince, if you’re the least bit not sure of it, but need more then the choke in terms of control of the dog and stopping the pulling, go with a halti or gentle leader

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->tough, very active dog. "self correcting (pinch collars) can readily >be made smaller or larger by taking away or adding links, but get one >heavy enough for your dog >>And I am a big believer in the Herman Sprenger German collars – the difference >>in quality is really obvious. >What size collar (mm) would be appropriate for a 50 lb, 7 month old Australian >Shepherd? >Thank you…Beth

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It has always been my impression that "choke" is a misnomer with the choke collar – if one is choking the dog, then, the collar is being misused. Corrections should be applied as a series of "taps" in order to give the dog an opportunity to avoid the discomfort with an appropriate response. M.C.

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BTW, in the majority of instances I have experienced; progression from choke to pinch collar is more from lack of skill (on the trainer’s part), than a necessity for the dog’s training progress. M.C.

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> The Pinch Collar: > I have never used the pinch collar as a correction.  I have only used it as a > communication device.  My dogs have only had a buckle collar or a pinch collar > their entire careeer. > The pinch collar is a wonderful tool given the proper application. > I always used the smallest links to get through the coat. > The Medium link seemed to be to big.  The small link, was able to penetrate the > coat. > Betsy and the Belgians

Sounds nice. Howe do you say "You’re Full of Shit," without sounding like one is being vulgar??? Let me know. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

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> BTW, in the majority of instances I have experienced; progression from choke > to pinch collar is more from lack of skill (on the trainer’s part), than a > necessity for the dog’s training progress.

In the case of progression, you may be right.  However, for some trainers and dogs, the choice of a prong collar over a chain can be based on valid reasons.  When training my very soft dog I found that I did better with a prong collar, with a tap on the lead with my little finger.  The smaller motion to send a signal just suited us better than the larger movement to slide and release a chain. Lynn K.

Response:

Hello lyinglynn, > In the case of progression, you may be right.

Yes. But, and what you don’t understand, can’t understand, will not understand, and do not WANT to understand, because it does not fit in with your skewed way of thinking about, and your CRUDE way of working with, dog behavior, is the one, teeny, tiny, itty bitty, point, that using a CHOKE collar will only serve to trigger the OPPOSITION REFLEX, positive thigmotaxis. BECAUSE OF a lack of ability and KNOWLEDGE, that allows incompetent trainers to conduct themselves in a counterproductive manner, not even realizing that they are causing the problems they are trying to avoid, they rely on a choke collar to do what they shouldn’t be doing in the first place. > However, for some > trainers and dogs, the choice of a prong collar over a chain can > be based on valid reasons.

Yes. STUPIDITY.  You got any other excuses? Ignorance fits. Pig headdress fits. Foolishness fit. Indifference fits. Cruelty fits.. No matter howe you cut it, choking a dog to train it DOESN’T FIT. What part or wrong and inappropriate do you not understand? You seem to have difficulty with understanding Right from Wrong? > When training my very soft dog I found > that I did better with a prong collar, with a tap on the lead with > my little finger.

You should be tapping something else, and leave the damn dog alone, if you don’t know howe to train him! >  The smaller motion to send a signal just suited > us better than the larger movement to slide and release a chain.

Try this for a signal… > Lynn K.

DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Denna is correct- The collar should fit as high as possible on the neck, near the base of the skull, and be tight enough so that, when the dog pulls, the two opposing links at the back do not touch.  Only then will the collar "pinch", or give equal pressure all the way around the neck.  I see people all the time with prong collars hanging loosely around their dog’s necks, and I correct them every time.  If the collar is loose, the two rear links hit each other, and all the pressure is put on the few prongs a the front of the neck, which is obviously bad. I’ve had two 75 lb. sled dogs on one leash with prong collars, and held them with two fingers, and these dogs didn’t know the meaning of the word "heel".  They had no quarrels with these collars, either.  When they heard the jingling, they’d "come-a-runnin’"! Please don’t leave these collars on unless you’re walking your dog. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BTW, in the majority of instances I have experienced; progression from choke > to pinch collar is more from lack of skill (on the trainer’s part), than a > necessity for the dog’s training progress. > In the case of progression, you may be right.  However, for some > trainers and dogs, the choice of a prong collar over a chain can > be based on valid reasons.  When training my very soft dog I found > that I did better with a prong collar, with a tap on the lead with > my little finger.  The smaller motion to send a signal just suited > us better than the larger movement to slide and release a chain. > Lynn K.

Add to that that the prong collar doesn’t make noise(or at least makes a lot less than a choke).  One of my dogs is very sensitive to metallic jangling noises.  I put a choke collar on her once (stupidly) and she hit the floor.  I also like that the prong collar can convey more information that just "no!" and that it is less sensitive to the position of human and dog.  When I was using a choke collar, I found that I was always stressing about being in the proper position to give a proper correction, and didn’t pay attention to Clay.  With the prong, I was more relaxed, he was more relaxed, and we did much more actual communicating with each other.   –Deirdre, Romy and Clay

Response:

i neglected to mention that, after about a year of use of prong collars, my dogs don’t pull hard with a regular collar on their necks, but they still pull like hell when I hook them to the sled! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Very good descriptions of exceptions to the  point by Lynn and Diedre, I do want to clear up one thing here for the sake of anyone having trouble with dog training who is being bombarded with a great deal of confusing advice of the " change tools" or " new magical training device" genre. Technique is ultimately more critical to results than any single tool ( note here that both Lynn and Diedre’s exceptions detailed using a softer technique; and Diedre’s post indicated a concession to an individual dog’s perception to a particular tool) – this goes to the questions to ask oneself when objectively evaluating progress in behavioral changes: What does my dog perceive here? Is there a way to better communicate my expectations that will help the dog to understand? As I stated initially as regards the "majority" of progressions to the "pinch" being incorrect- I might have misused the term progression where escalation would be more appropriate–as 90% of the examples I’ve encountered have been " My trainer/teacher/buddy said I just need to be able to hit harder with my corrections to get my dog’s attention."   My experience would indicate that training smarter is preferable to hitting harder. regards, M.C.

Response:

> My dog’s trainer has suggested we get a pinch collar for training, but she was > very insistent that we learn the correct way to put it on.  My husband insists > that there is no incorrect way.  I know the choke collar should look like the > letter "P" when you’re facing the dog … but what’s the trick with the pinch > collar?

The professionals who use these, myself included, all think they know the right way to use and put one of these things on. You should really ask your trainer how she thinks it should be fitted and used. I use it this way: Collar should be fitted so that it is loose enough to not apply any kind of pressure when not triggered. Prongs should only make contact with the sides and back of the dog’s neck. Prong’s should not make contact with the dog’s throat. Collar should not be used to stifle a dog’s impulses or drives. Corrections or shocks or whatever you want to call them should excite and stimulate rather than frighten or intimidate the dog. Before you buy.

Response:

> What size collar (mm) would be appropriate for a 50 lb, 7 month old Australian > Shepherd?

I use the medium links size for all dogs.  The size is tailored to the dog by removing or adding individual links.  A really good shop, or a catalog, sells individual links to let you do this. Lynn K.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You might also have to actually undo the collar to take it off and put > it on.  When M