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i suspect this will go unansered.

Question:

this is dog training, not suicide prevention… People who HURT DOGS probably should sit down and take off their shoes… j;~}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… >Easy enough, Nick. If you see a poster here who seems to be unduely >criticized, sniped, heckled, poked, jabbed, exposed to continuous jibes, >and unintelligible argument and generally treated like a tethered bear >upon whom the hounds have been loosed, just go to >run a search on that poster’s history, and your answer will be in the >archives. > [snip] > Incredibly, and in all fairness, I have to agree with cee five five on this > one. It’s really not fair of you, Nick, to post here for what? a week? and > think that you have a firm grasp of the lay of the land (how long did you lurk > before posting?). BTW, down at the ol’ Deja archives, do a power search for > postings with Jerry as the author using the keywords ’shotgun’, ’socks’, and > ‘big toe’. I wonder who the bully boys are on here huh!??? > Mike

Response:

> [whoops, accidentally sent this to email] > Well, as I’ve been on this newsgroup for about 2 years now (I can’t believe > it’s been that long), perhaps I can give you a bit of insight?

Not likely… Seems you are a little light on dog abusers… Read this:

> Hello again Bob, > Unfortunately, it doesn’t work like that. Take a look at some of > the replies made to my recent posts….

I haven’t seen the replies to your recent posts, but I do recall the horrendous way you’ve been received and addressed here. In fact, I’ve advised you a couple of times to not waste your time entertaining some of the ridiculous arguments the rpdb regulars, the Gang Of Thugs, have used to TRY to justify their abusive approach to training. They just don’t want to improve themselves, and are TERRIFIED of INFORMATION that would PROVE to them that it is NOT necessary or APPROPRIATE to use fear, force, or confrontation in training dogs. > Not made by the person ’seen to be angry’ though. ( I assume > you’re meaning Jerry Howe)?

Seems boob here is AFRAID to discuss HIS training techniques on th board. He’s afraid of MY criticism…You want to know something funny? I can’t CRITICIZE decent information, whether I agree with it or not, if it is reasonable and intelligent, there is no argument, is there? I CAN’T CRITICIZE what doesn’t exist, and I CAN’T criticize INFORMATION that is in the best interest of our dogs, CAN I? > I didn’t know anyone here on this ng when I first joined just a > year ago, but since that time (because of my phylosophy, > which dosn’t meet with most of the regulars approval), I’ve met > anger, anger, anger – but ‘never’ from Jerry Howe.

Why should I have any gripe with you? All of your training methods are appropriate, although I do not train the same way that you do. And your method for the come command is SPECTACULAR. We just had a thread by someone who asked about using the keys because her dog comes when he hears them ANYWAY. Everybody tried to steer her away from using her keys, because they DON’T UNDERSTAND CONDITIONING. > Incidentally Bob, we have something in common… I started my > first school in 1969 … a good year

I’ve been in this racket just a little longer. > I’ve made every effort to be polite and courteous to all on this > group, including Jerry Howe.

You’ve been treated shabbily in return by the Gang Of Thugs…Ol’ dogman even "tracked you down" to "somewhere in the UK". He’s called you some awful things, and you’ve always been civil in return, always stayed focused on the issues and not the personalities… That’s the way I am too, but you’d never know it from this forum. I don’t like to be unpleasant, but I get very upset when people advocate hurting dogs to train them, because I’ve worked with so many folks who’ve regretted using the customary force techniques and ruined their dogs and had them killed. Then sometimes I’ve got "lucky," and got the dog just before they did him in, and had to risk MY life to get the dog rehabilitated and the owners retrained… > He however, is one of the few who has returned the > courteousy.

The ONLY people I am not courteous to are people who HURT dogs and will NOT listen to REASON when I or ANY competent trainer has tried to explain the repercussions of using force methods on dogs…I don’t assault people who write in here NOT KNOWING any better than what they’ve been taught. There was even a poster who wrote in saying he just recognized that he was abusing his dog because he was depressed. Everyone told him he was awful and should never have a dog again. The poor guy was looking for suggestions that would help him REHABILITATE himself and MAKE AMENDS for the errors of his ways with her. He was treated just as cruelly as you could imagine… There’s been more than a half dozen, full time, competent, professional trainers who specialize in problem dogs who won’t continue to argue and be harassed by "trainers" who do not know any other way to train dogs EXCEPT by HURTING them. We are ALL agreed on these issues concerning FEAR, FORCE, CONFRONTATION, and PUNISHMENT in training. There IS NO PLACE FOR IT HERE… > Watch and see – or better still, go back through the history > and see the way I’ve been treated.

Yes, and look for Canis55, Roy the Vet Tech., Claudette, Parker, Master222, that’s just the ones I can remember off hand from the past year. Every one of them was ASSAULTED AND INSULTED by the rpdb Gang Of Thugs…These people intentionally harrass competent trainers till they go elsewhere… THAT’S WHY I’M HERE… That isn’t going to be the way it is anymore. People are going to see the Gang Of Thugs for what they are, and THEY will be harassed and EMBARRASSED until they leave, or improve themselves…I don’t hold grudges. Except when people refuse to learn. I’ve got little tolerance for people who earn their living HURTING dogs. > Most of the professional trainers who’ve shared the more > positive non-confrontational methodology have been treated > similarly and sadly they left in disgust.

I guess I got ahead of you… > That wont be the case with myself.

I just hate to see you invest as much time as you did before you went away for a couple of months, trying to explain things to these guys that don’t want to believe anything that would disprove their perceived needs for force and violence in training… > Oh, and I’m not Jerry Howe in drag by the way – that’s been > suggested no-end of times – nor am I a troll – nor am I his > Mother/Wife/Sister/Aunt or colleague. I’m just a trainer who > recognises him as being one of the best trainers I’ve ever had > the pleasure of speaking with.

Thank you. I work hard to make sure I don’t make life hard on my students. It’s tough enough, we don’t need to RUIN it with PAIN. > Perhaps if the newbies look beyond the feuding, they too will > appreciate this.

Sometimes they don’t even look at what’s going on. They just see twenty people going insane about ME, and they think that twenty people couldn’t ALL BE LYING, and that I deserve to be killfiled… They’ll see. I’ve got the time and determination to insure that there will be the best information possible coming from this group…I’ve always said, good competition is good for business…I’d like to be discussing training, not personalities. > I’ve never agreed with the rudeness, language, hostility etc., > but then again… he’s not the only one doing that here. Others > arn’t critisised for rudeness though.

That’s not like me either, but I’ve been around long enough to know what I’m up against here. We’ve got some pretty sick individuals and they MUST be IDENTIFIED AND EXPOSED. I think they have been… Now, maybe we can get on with talking dogs, and not personalities… > So…. to all the newbies, watch this thread carefully now, and > see how many angry people there really are here lol.

I can only think of twenty three people who are likely to respond in outrage at you post. I don’t anticipate coming back into the tread, but I’ll be reading them. > Take care Bob > regards, > Marilyn > Peace,

Yes. But not with people who advocate twisting and pinching ears, toes, and testicles, and shocking, kneeing, chin cuffing, poping them on the snout, jerking, choking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, AND HANGING HIM if he objects to any of the abuse these bums call training… > Bob Maida

You DEFEND ALL THAT. Talk dog training here and prove you don’t do that.. You can’t, can you boob. > Dog Training/Problem Counseling since 1969

You didn’t learn anything in thirty years. > Herndon, Virginia > Don’t feed the trolls, malcontents and troublemakers. > Killfile/Filter their posts out or ignore them.

You know more about killfiles than dog training. j;~} Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-

Response:

> A question for a question: do you think it is humane to cause a > dog to spike a temperature of 106 – risking heat stroke and death > – and at the same time give it the shits, risking dehydration in > addition to the heat stroke?

and don’t forget the screaming. Jerry likes to hear them scream. I guess Nick must also, since he likes Jerry’s style of training so much.

Response:

I am a newbi here i know. Strange thing is when I deal with jerry i get no abuse. when I deal with others that disagree with his views i get subtle put downs and told to back my assertions. Or explain certain things. When I offer the words of vets to chicken bones "I dont know what im taking about". When dare to suggest that there are better methods for training, im told "I dont know what im talking about". Funny thing is, I have achieved with my dogs in agility trials. say for regular jabs my dogs dont go to the vets for years at a time. they live to be 19 yrs old. or 15. or in the case of my mothers jack russel many years ago until the age of 21 yrs old. I can prove these things. yet I recive sublte put downs. Im accused of suggesting that everyone on here uses electric collars, when what I said was i dispise people that do. I wonder who the bully boys are on here huh!???. nickp.x. excuse tyopos

Response:

says… >this is dog training, not suicide prevention…

This is NOT dog training. This is dog BEHAVIOR. Is this misapprehension the source of our collective miseries? Now here’s a little project for YOU… Sit down, get comfy. Which is your dominant hand? Left? Right? No matter. Flex your fingers…feels good, doesn’t it. Now get one of those SHARPIE (TM) black markers-the permanent kind work best-and a piece of white posterboard. Take a small sharp object (careful of your eyes!!) and put holes in two of the corners of the posterboard. Now get some decent packaging twine and make a loop through the corner holes. Relax. Everythings going to be ok. Relaxed? Good. Now write on the posterboard in big letters "I AM A BALONEYHEAD". Now hang the poster around your neck…what’s that?…no, no, turn it around so we all can read it. BYE, BALONEYHEAD!! {}:!;;;) <M

Response:

A question for a question: do you think it is humane to cause a dog to spike a temperature of 106 – risking heat stroke and death – and at the same time give it the shits, risking dehydration in addition to the heat stroke? This is how Jerry Howe claims to train protection dogs. >Question. do you believe that the use of electric collars that shock, oh >sorry, "stimulate", a dog to perform. how about choke chains, pinch >collars, prong collars, hitting the dog with sticks. harder if the dog >doesent do at it is expected to do and pinching its ears, harder if the dog >does not do as requird. Do you believe that these are

acceptable methods of >training a dog?. if you do, i dont want to know you. And im not being >abusive. Just asking a question and awaiting a reply.

nonothingnick * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

> I am a newbi here i know. Strange thing is when I deal with jerry i get no > abuse. when I deal with others that disagree with his views i get subtle > put downs and told to back my assertions. Or explain certain things.

If you spent more time explaining basics to novices, and less time whining about the regulars, you would make a whole lot better impression. Enough complaining. Just show up regularly and help for a year or two, stick to business, ignore the cranks, and stop taking these infernal side trips. And sign off anyway you like. — Toni www.irish-wolfhounds.com I/we recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe should be ignored as a crank and waste of time Killfile the jerk!

Response:

This is an inspired idea! Volunteer a couple of times a week to teach people how to train there their dogs your way at a local park or someplace convenient to everyone. You could advertise at your local pet stores and I’m sure people would take you up on your offer. That’s how you get through to people who train the way you don’t like. Bill

Response:

Hello bill, just put your name on the list in the salutation and read on… Hello cindymoron, lyingfrostydahly, doc dermer (former Master Of Deception [lost the title when he got caught lying]), and disgruntled, disgraced, and discredited rpdb Gang Of Thugs members (that’s you, boob), YOU make it EASY for me to RUIN YOUR REPUTATIONS…and cause YOU irreparable HARM in your ”field of expertise”… just stop posting, and I’ll have to WORK at discrediting you. Do the rescue folks KNOW HOWE you bums twist and pinch dogs ears and toes, and jerk, choke, and shock dogs? Does anybody know HOWE a dog sounds when he’s SQUEALING because his ears or toes are being pinched and twisted? Cindy moore does. Ask her. She’ll tell you she doesn’t twist? She’ll tell you she doesn’t hurt? She’ll tell you she’s DEAF, and can’t HEAR them scream, so it doesn’t mean anything to her… She’ll tell you that FEAR, FORCE, AND PUNISHMENT is necessary for ALL "ADVANCED TRAINING", to enhance the bond between "trainer" and dog and achieve the higher aspects of obedience through TWISTING and PINCHING EARS and TOES, and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS… Let’s hear cindy moore and pals SQUEAL for a change. Ask her about the toe hitch. Ask her about "table work." Ask her why she HURTS dogs, and calls that training? Ask her why she WON’T answer these questions like her pal lyingfrostydahly did below, when she EARNED HER LYING TITLE??? Here’s what our respected friend and rpdb contributor amy dahl has to say about ear and toe pinching and twisting and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS. TELL US YOU DON’T DO THE SAME THINGS, cindymoron…: Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: >> I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???

Aren’t those YOUR OWN WORDS??? But YOU don’t DO THAT??? People, this is HOWE consistency works, and most particularly well with dogs, because here, the same methods are being used to INFLUENCE YOU, and YOU certainly are more intellectually capable of solving problems and have greater critical thinking skills than your dogs…, and these methods work on YOU> >> That article, reprinted from The Retriever Journal, is >> the words of my husband John and myself.

Meaning "We’ll share the credit, making it more credible??? Or we’ll share the blame, to mitigate our own individual responsibility and guilt…" YOU decide, it’s not my business where the blame falls. >> For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses >> not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting >> ears,"

From the text">>>" ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> >>"but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to

escaping the ear pinch>>> >>You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your

thumb;>>> >> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against

that>>> >> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that

resisting your will fades in importance.>>> >>Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching

its ear.>>> >> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in>>>" Right… Didn’t lyingfrostydahly just deny all of that? There’s more… That was just a little about ear pinching, and no there was NO MENTION of twisting ears… cindy moore has all that information for you… Does it really matter? The semantics of whether we’re twisting or pinching or slapping or hitting or correcting or nicking instead of BURNING??? The only terminology that doesn’t have any NEAT euphemisms to take the CURSE off what our respected "trainers" actually MEAN (see definitions of punishment thread), is HANGING to REHABILITATE the dog, as ALL of our Koehler fans MUST endorse. Also notice the use of "it" for dog and "the" for him or YOUR DOG. That’s not coincidental, it’s all part of the psychologically and very cleverly designed DESENSITIZATION and MISINFORMATION necessary to REDUCE a good person to ACCEPT and DO HORRIBLE THINGS to dogs and TRYING to call ABUSE training. These are the subtle differences between being an expert dog trainer and some morally bankrupt vicious rotten abusive cretin that goes to jail for abusing dogs… But don’t lose interest now folks, there’s more… >> NO mention whatsoever of dogs’ toes in any context, >> and NO mention of "beating" dogs.

RIGHT… Perhaps cindymoron would be good enough to teach us more about the toe twist? We’ll ask her to address the toe pinch. lyingfrostydahly: ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply.>>> >> With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch."

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,>>>"

Wouldn’t you think that was despicable enough even just writing that, let alone risk suffering the embarrassment of not only having that attributed to yourself, but in fact denying your best work and PROVING YOURSELF A SHAMELESS LIAR AND ADVOCATE OF DOG ABUSE??? But it goes on… >> chuck (for the uninitiated, "chuck" means strike) the dog

under the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>> >>If the dog drops it, chuck (slap) it solidly under the chin, say

"No! Hold!" use a chuck (slap) under the chin or pinch its ear and place the dummy in its mouth.>>> >> If it doesn’t make rapid progress, you can increase the

pressure by requiring it to pick up the dropped dummy (stay on the ear until it does).>>> >>(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has

decided it isn’t worth it).>>> pinch its ear and say, "fetch,">>> Here we have consistency and a plea for reason, directly in contradiction to the blackman and white facts signed and published by our expert trainer… Accordingly, the consistency of constant repetitions of your requests for understanding and compliance from your dogs, dictates that YOU WILL GET IT. So long as you are consistent and keep repeating the exact same scenario, no matter what… Including and especially when you calculatedly and intentionally deny the truth and make your requests seem reasonable, THEY EXPECT YOU TO BELIEVE that such behavior is NORMAL. > In our training we do not do any of these things, nor do we > advocate them to others.

See what I mean? Character, morals, ethics, integrity, human decency? 0.000%. Not a shred. She might have scored 0.001 had she NOT LIED ABOUT IT. >>"Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When

performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> This is HOWE they get that happy excited working attitude that they all talk about… That’s their criteria for making their dogs happy, willing team mates…They BEAT IT INTO THE DOG. That’s WHY Jerry’s HIGH-STAKES challenge to frantik fraud die… His dog isn’t working, she’s AVOIDING GETTING BURNED…I’ll walk away with HIS national champion "protection" dog and show him up for the vicious loudmouth ignoramus he is. And there’s a jail cell waiting for cindy moore if she ever demonstrates HER forced fetch in front of A JURY composed of ANY DECENT human beings. > Jerry Howe has once again demonstrated his lack of > reading comprehension.

Right. Perhaps that’s because I get a little disturbed with all of the abuse, and I begin reading more into it than what the author intended???… >>"Slip an empty shotshell into your pocket before the next

session. As always, begin with some review. Then sit the dog. Take hold of its buckle collar and ear as follows. Slide the last three fingers of your left hand towards the dog’s head under the collar, and curl them over the collar to grasp it firmly. With your thumb and index finger, pull the dog’s left ear back over the collar (inside up) and hold it there gently. The "ear pinch" is administered by pressing with your thumbnail at the boundary between hair and bare skin (don’t pinch yet). Depending on the size and strength of your hands, you may want to press against the collar or against your index finger.>>> >>You want it to get the idea that the ear-pinch means,>>> If

the dog clenches its mouth shut, you may be in for another extended session. Keep pinching and press the dummy harder against the dog’s lips.>>> >>Repeat "fetch." Again, keep your voice calm. If several

minutes pass and>>> You don’t want the dog to think that it is "beating the pinch" Any time it is slow, pinch!>>> As mentioned previously, it is important not to establish a pattern of struggling with the dog physically. If you cannot physically restrain the dog, increasing the pressure may do the trick.>>> Be sure you are in position with your hold on collar and ear every time you give the command,">>> Here’s a couple MORE quotes from the links above, from our own respected Amy Dahl’s published text: >>"it transfers much of the momentum-producing power of the

ear pinch to the stick, thus providing a basis for force-on-back. you want to make the dog think that by going fast it can avoid the stick. >>> >> As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished>>> No, YOU’RE FINISHED. You AND YOUR PALS. >> This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,

and the job is not done until it is overcome. we do not recommend that inexperienced trainers use this heavy-handed … read more »

Response:

No, this won’t go unanswered.. You don’t get abuse from Jerry because you agree with everything he says. You may be getting abuse, though I haven’t seen it, from some people for your choice of words and confrontational style, ie; "I DISPISE", etc… You have the right to your opinion, however wrong it may be:), but blasting people for other methods WILL only bring what you deem abuse back to you. People in this group are so sick and tired of Jerry calling them names and yelling and screaming at them that there is not much tolerance or acceptance for anyone that jumps right in with not so "subtle" put-downs. I have not seen anywhere where you have stated that you have tried e-collars, prong collars, etc., or know of their history, background or scientific studies that have researched their cause and effect and whether they truly "hurt" the dog or not. You have just elected to blast anyone who has ever used them. I have seen these collars save dogs lives and would not hesitate to use one in the right situation. Better an e-collar or prong collar than the dog being turned into the pound to be put down. Your answer to this would be for people to train their dogs properly. Well, the sad truth is that MOST dogs get NO training at all much less "proper" training. So, I guess thr "right" thing would be for MOST people not to own dogs, right? This isn’t going to happen and it’s my opinion that anything that may help these people or the dogs they own is very welcome. With all of Jerry’s rhetoric, look at "HOWE" many dogs he could save if he offered to train people to properly train their dogs for FREE! If he just spent an equal amount of time doing free hands-on training as he does blasting people in this NG, think of how many dogs he could save. Probably as many as he claims he has really trained over the years. You could also do this. If you are so good (not a put-down here) then you could do the same thing. Volunteer a couple of times a week to teach people how to train there their dogs your way at a local park or someplace convenient to everyone. You could advertise at your local pet stores and I’m sure people would take you up on your offer. That’s how you get through to people who train the way you don’t like. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am a newbi here i know. Strange thing is when I deal with jerry i get no >abuse. when I deal with others that disagree with his views i get subtle >put downs and told to back my assertions. Or explain certain things. When >I offer the words of vets to chicken bones "I dont know what im taking >about". When dare to suggest that there are better methods for training, im >told "I dont know what im talking about". Funny thing is, I have achieved >with my dogs in agility trials. say for regular jabs my dogs dont go to the >vets for years at a time. they live to be 19 yrs old. or 15. or in the >case of my mothers jack russel many years ago until the age of 21 yrs old. >I can prove these things. yet I recive sublte put downs. Im accused of >suggesting that everyone on here uses electric collars, when what I said was >i dispise people that do. >I wonder who the bully boys are on here huh!???. nickp.x. excuse tyopos

Response:

> I am a newbi here i know.

No, you are a boring troll. *plonk*

Response:

Hello cindymoron, lyingfrostydahly, doc dermer (former Master Of Deception [lost the title when he got caught lying]), and disgruntled, disgraced, and discredited rpdb Gang Of Thugs members (that’s you, boob), YOU make it EASY for me to RUIN YOUR REPUTATIONS…and cause YOU irreparable HARM in your ”field of expertise”… just stop posting, and I’ll have to WORK at discrediting you. Do the rescue folks KNOW HOWE you bums twist and pinch dogs ears and toes, and jerk, choke, and shock, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS? Does anybody know HOWE a dog sounds when he’s SQUEALING because his ears or toes are being pinched and twisted? Cindy moore does. Ask her. She’ll tell you she doesn’t twist? She’ll tell you she doesn’t hurt? She’ll tell you she’s DEAF, and can’t HEAR them scream, so it doesn’t mean anything to her… She’ll tell you that FEAR, FORCE, AND PUNISHMENT is necessary for ALL "ADVANCED TRAINING", to enhance the bond between "trainer" and dog and achieve the higher aspects of obedience through TWISTING and PINCHING EARS and TOES, and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS… Let’s hear cindy moore and pals SQUEAL for a change. Ask her about the toe hitch. Ask her about "table work." Ask her why she HURTS dogs, and calls that training? Ask her why she WON’T answer these questions like her pal lyingfrostydahly did below, when she EARNED HER LYING TITLE??? Here’s what our respected friend and rpdb contributor amy dahl has to say about ear and toe pinching and twisting and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS. TELL US YOU DON’T DO THE SAME THINGS, cindymoron…: Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: >> I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???