Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > stitched with finest floss on pure irish linen: >Means the exact opposite, and proves that they DO hurt. They hurt so >good even a weakened geriatric can use them. > Sure, and it hurts SOOOO much that the dog goes and gets the collar > and brings it to his owner when he wants to go for a walk.  BTW, this > is a dog who has cancer of the jaw and can’t use a Gentle Leader or > Halti because that really would hurt.  Please explain to me which is > better- to use the prong collar so that the woman can continue to walk > her dog or to have to have the dog put down because it would be too > dangerous for her to risk being pulled down again by the dog? > In a somewhat related vein, this week humane society officers stated > publicly that it would be better for a group of tigers to be "humanely > put down" than to continue to live in their present quarters.  All of > the tigers are healthy, but the pens are somewhat small and the tigers > are being allowed to breed. > Loose-lipped Ruth

Well Harlan, she’s as lousy as a bum and a heckler as she is a dog trainer, but what she is really doing is FIGHTING for her RIGHT to HURT YOU… Think about it, Harlan, think HARD. She WANTS to HURT you. She WANTS other terri’s to HURT their Harlan’s too, so she doesn’t LOOK out of step. These kinds of bums will jerk and choke you, and if you let them know you don’t appreciate it, she’ll HANG YOU. It’s all in the book, the BIBLE by koehler. There’s INSTRUCTIONS for putting a hook in the ceiling or throwing your leash over the door and HANGING YOU till your eyes roll back in your head, and your tongue turns thick and blue and falls out the side of your mouth, and when she let’s you down, you should oughta stagger a couple of steps and PUKE. That’s ACCEPTABLE to her. And it’s approved of by doc dermer, so you KNOW she’ll do it. That pronged collar she chokes you with HAD BETTER BE LOVED, cause she’ll HANG you with it if you object to getting choked. Be happy in your work. Your pal, Jerry.

Response:

Doggy Do Wrong is a rip-off  DON’T buy it http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/concerns.html * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

stitched with finest floss on pure irish linen: >Means the exact opposite, and proves that they DO hurt. They hurt so >good even a weakened geriatric can use them.

Sure, and it hurts SOOOO much that the dog goes and gets the collar and brings it to his owner when he wants to go for a walk.  BTW, this is a dog who has cancer of the jaw and can’t use a Gentle Leader or Halti because that really would hurt.  Please explain to me which is better- to use the prong collar so that the woman can continue to walk her dog or to have to have the dog put down because it would be too dangerous for her to risk being pulled down again by the dog?   In a somewhat related vein, this week humane society officers stated publicly that it would be better for a group of tigers to be "humanely put down" than to continue to live in their present quarters.  All of the tigers are healthy, but the pens are somewhat small and the tigers are being allowed to breed.   Loose-lipped Ruth

Response:

Like your pieces are to long winded already. Go back in that prong collar debate thread and find the ignorant loose lipped poster, who said the prong makes it easier for their weak old lady client to walk her large pulling dog so this means they don’t hurt. Means the exact opposite, and proves that they DO hurt. They hurt so good even a weakened geriatric can use them. Find the piece Jerry and I’ll write the argument. Yours in fanaticism, C55 P.S. Take a short break. Go outside. Yes Jerry that’s beautiful healthful Floridian sunshine. Eat a nice slice o’ water melon in the sun. You’ll feel better. Before you buy.

Response:

Hello boss nuthtin,

> What a convenient excuse Marilyn.  No names mean no fact.  This "damage" just > isn’t so.  Someone would have to be using a prong collar in a very bizarre way > to even come close to the damage you are citing.  Your "authority" doesn’t > know squat.  And until you use them yourself, you don’t know anything about > prong collars either – not enough to make a judgement.

Hello boss, you’re making stupid arguments to defend your alleged right to hurt dogs to train them… You do not have the intellectual capacity to bother discussing these matters with you. Besides, without HURTING dogs, you are DISABLED as a ”dog trainer.” That’s what I came in here to do, disable the incompetent ”trainers” so they are no longer HURTING DOGS to train them… That’s why I’m attacking you today, because you don’t have the brains or integrity to improve yourself or to get out of this business before you HURT any more dogs and the families who love them… I’m not playing games with you bums, I intend to make you improve yourselves, or PUT YOU OUT OF THIS RACKET by EXPOSING and IDENTIFYING you as the abusive, morally bankrupt, unethical, unprincipled, inhumane sadists you really are… Here’s what Dr. Roger Mugford has to say about collars. "Choke Chains: No dog deserves to be adorned with the strangulating links of the choke chain and yet it is the most commonly used item of the dog training equipment at exhibitions, shows and everywhere where dogs are walked. (This was written several years ago, so may not necessarily be the case now). How did such a bizarre affront to the rights of dogs to a pain-free association with man come about? I have been unable to find out who first invented this instrument of torture, but it was probably a farmer with some chain that just happened to be lying about in his stables or cow sheds. By the end of the last century and in the era of Konrad Most, their use in Germany was wide-spread. They were then introduced to the UK, the USA and elsewhere, as German dog training methods spread after World War 1. The choke chain became the essential instrument of compulsion and induction in the Most method, to be plagiarised and adapted by most writers on the subject since: from Koehler in the USA to Woodhouse in the UK, and even by some contemporary writers who misleadingly claim to be trendy and gentle.  snipped…. The problem with the choke chain is that it produces a compound sensation for the dog. In quick succession there is the jangle of metal, constriction of tissues, pulling of hair by entrapment in the links of the chain and finally arresting of forward movement. I first exposed the dangers of choke chains in an essay published in 1980. My conclusion now, as then, is: If you care for your dog, chuck the choke! Pinch and Spike Collars: Man’s underlying attitude to his animals just gets worse when we look at the damage that can be done by the spiked collars, too commonly employed in continental Europe and the USA, but, thankfully, rarely in the UK. They work by the application of pain and one can only imagine the degree of local tissue damage which is inflicted by these devices. My advice to those who encounter a trainer or a pet store marketing these devices is to protest at their cruelty; easily done in the UK, but requiring more courage and conviction in other countries." > Janet Boss

Well Harlan, she’s as lousy as a bum and a heckler as she is a dog trainer, but what she is really doing is FIGHTING for her RIGHT to HURT YOU… Think about it, Harlan, think HARD. She WANTS to HURT you. She WANTS other terri’s to HURT their Harlan’s too, so she doesn’t LOOK out of step. These kinds of bums will jerk and choke you, and if you let them know you don’t appreciate it, she’ll HANG YOU. It’s all in the book, the BIBLE by koehler. There’s INSTRUCTIONS for putting a hook in the ceiling or throwing your leash over the door and HANGING YOU till your eyes roll back in your head, and your tongue turns thick and blue and falls out the side of your mouth, and when she let’s you down, you should oughta stagger a couple of steps and PUKE. That’s ACCEPTABLE to her. And it’s approved of by doc dermer, so you KNOW she’ll do it. That pronged collar she chokes you with HAD BETTER BE LOVED, cause she’ll HANG you with it if you object to getting choked. Be happy in your work. Your pal, Jerry.

Response:

Hello boss, I’m getting a little frustrated with INCOMPETENTS like you trying to prove that spiked collars do not hurt dogs and do not contribute to behavior problems… instead of solving them… Sure, they’ll repress the dogs instinct to pull against pressure (positive thigmotaxis), but THAT IN ITSELF causes EXTREME STRESS and ANXIETY that MUST be released through other anxiety relief mechanisms such as barking, digging, chewing, hyperactivity, aggression, aversion, and ADVERSION, a lowly life condition… Yes, this is far above your head, but I’m not writing to you. I seldom do write to the poster I’m CONDEMNING, because if it were within their ability to UNDERSTAND, I wouldn’t feel the need to condemn and ridicule them in the first place, would I??? No boss, I have no hopes of rehabilitating you, because the word rehabilitate MEANS that you’d necessarily have to have been habilitated previously… That’s simply not the case with you, as you’ve clearly proven that you do not have the mental capacity to learn or understand what competent trainers here are discussing… Dealing with you is much like banging my head against the wall, it feels good when I stop… Therefore, my only alternative is to stop you, and encourage you to get out of this business before you hurt any more dogs and the families who love them.. >Hello Bill, >I don’t believe the head harness was created to abuse a dog, but I’ve seen >occasion >when they’re uncomfortable.

the wrong situation, potentially dangerous. Sure, you’ll use ridiculous, inane, arguments, to try to prove your point. But you don’t ever come right out and tell us that your point is only to DEFEND your alleged RIGHT to HURT DOGS to train them… Next to ron hardin, you are the most ignorant poster here… You’re not a malicious and deceitful as many others in our Gang Of Thugs, but you are far more dangerous because you lack intelligence AND integrity… > The choke collar was accurately named – many people continue to say ‘But I don’t > hurt my dog with it’ – (me for one – I used tosay it, but I was kidding myself), > load of rubbish – they ‘do’ hurt the dog.

******* How do you believe they hurt the dog? That’s what I mean… You don’t have the intellect to understand… You are singularly motivated to HURT dogs to train them because that is all you know… YOU are in a position where YOU are responsible for the DEATHS of many dogs you are asked to "help out" in the shelters you ”work” with… You are a disgrace. > As for the pinch collar, well – I’ve just seen one on the link

given by Ron, and they > look AWFUL.

One picture is worth a thousand words. You don’t have to be a physicist to calculate the amount of pressure applied to X amount of prongs sticking into the trachea, to UNDERSTAND that just putting the damn thing on the dog TRIGGERS EXTREME ANXIETY, as is clearly evidenced by our pals terri and Harlan’s EXCITEMENT at the ”opportunity” to put it on and enjoy getting jerked and choked on it… The dog KNOWS he’s likely to get HURT, if he isn’t FAST at putting it on and ACTING like he ENJOYS WORKING LIKE THAT… >What exactly were they designed to do for goodness sake???  How can anyone look > at that picture and with straight face, say ‘ This collar was not designed to cause >pain or harm’?????

I’ve never witnessed on to cause harm, nor pain.  A prong is perhaps the most humane collar available. No, boss. That flies in the face of REALITY. The FACT IS, that YOU do not have the INTELLECT or DESIRE to improve yourself, because that is the nature of the beast, when we’re dealing with ignoramuses like you… That’s why I keep telling you to get out of this business before you HURT any more dogs and their families… >Take another look

http://www.jandjdog.com/obedience/pinchcollars/pinch.html No, but it IS a problem… Not surprising that you aren’t able to figure all this out.. >Some of these ‘training aids’ are designed to cause pain. If not, then why >not stick with an ordinary buckle collar?

well.  All depends on the dog and the handler. Yes, boss. And so will almost any other activity that is not engaged in correctly, like picking your nose till it bleeds… the only difference is, when a hemophiliac is picking  their nose till it bleeds could kill them.. Mostly it’s harmless, but sometimes it’ll kill… You defending spiked collars is like telling us it’s cool to pick our noses till it bleeds, forgetting that some of us may be hemophiliacs… HOWE many deaths will it take for you to realize that you shouldn’t encourage irresponsible behavior? > Education needs to start with the trainer before used on the dog. In the > correct hands, almost any training aid can be used in a humane way as you > pointed out with prong collars.

There is NO WAY to correctly HURT a dog to train them… You’ve been recommending that every dog be jerked around on a pronged collar for everything from heeling to roughhousing with the family cat… You must be stopped, or at least IDENTIFIED and RECOGNIZED as the incompetent dog abuser you really are… >No way!  Absolutely not…. In my opinion.   (otherwise they wouldn’t bother >using them in the first place).

That collar doesn’t work JUST because… It works because it HURTS. But that’s not the long and the short of it… The PROBLEM is, that BECAUSE of HOWE it works, it CAUSES OTHER BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS due to triggering and repressing positive thigmotaxis… That’s far beyond your ability to understand.  YOU do not associate other behavior problems with the collar, simply because you do not have the INTELLECT to UNDERSTAND basic dog behavior… SEE? That’s why I keep telling you to get out of this business. >Just my opinion…. no argument intended. >best regards, >Marilyn Rammell

******* What does you statement mean Marilyn?  Unless you’ve TRIED a prong collar, or at least accompanied someone who’s using one, you can’t possibly see how they work. We don’t have to SEE IT. We CAN’T see the triggering of internal stress unless we are extremely experienced and familiar with dog behavior, like me and Marilyn and Cannis55, and Master222, and Roy the vet tech, and Claudette, and Parker, and Dogmanager, and all of the other competent trainers who no longer can WASTE THEIR EFFORTS HERE, because of LOST CAUSES like YOU arguing to DEFEND your alleged RIGHT TO HURT DOGS to train them.. Did I make myself PERFECTLY CLEAR??? because they are simple, effectve, and humane (safe too!). As stated. You do not have the capacity to understand or learn… You are a hopeless case, otherwise I’d have tried to teach you. You are a lost cause, and you are RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING DOGS UNNECESSARILY with your rotten advice. No, boss. That makes YOU feel good. If you sell that idea to your customers, then they deserve what they get because they are stupider than you… bias as well. You mean like recommendations from vets or humane societies that would send someone to YOU or steve boyer or cindymoron or lyinglynn or lyingfrostydahly, or any of our Gang Of Thugs for help??? *******Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" Hey boss. Do your ”best friends” a favor and GET OUT of this business before you HURT any more dogs and the families who love them… "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate" see Lucy at:   http://www.flyball.com/nsl/ And they deserve better than a little nose picker like you to "help" then get DEAD. Maybe this post to terri and Harlan might help you see: Well Harlan, she’s as lousy as a bum and a heckler as she is a dog trainer, but what she is really doing is FIGHTING for her RIGHT to HURT YOU… Think about it, Harlan, think HARD. She WANTS to HURT you. She WANTS other terri’s to HURT their Harlan’s too, so she doesn’t LOOK out of step. These kinds of bums will jerk and choke you, and if you let them know you don’t appreciate it, she’ll HANG YOU. It’s all in the book, the BIBLE by koehler. There’s INSTRUCTIONS for putting a hook in the ceiling or throwing your leash over the door and HANGING YOU till your eyes roll back in your head, and your tongue turns thick and blue and falls out the side of your mouth, and when she let’s you down, you should oughta stagger a couple of steps and PUKE. That’s ACCEPTABLE to her. And it’s approved of by doc dermer, so you KNOW she’ll do it. That pronged collar she chokes you with HAD BETTER BE LOVED, cause she’ll HANG you with it if you object to getting choked. Be happy in your work. Your pal, Jerry.

Response: