Question:

Hey, Terri, what’s Harlan’s Twister pose?  I havta ask because The Otter (ChowLaBass, my own personal midget lab sumo wrestler) does this thing that looks SO weird–he lays down with the back end and legs twisted to the right and the front end and legs twisted toward the left with his head straight out in front on the floor.  He is the strangest dog I’ve ever had .  His other favorite resting thing is to be upside down against the sofa or a wall–and everytime you glance at him, he’s watching you…..reminds me of one of these Jesus pictures when no matter where you are in the room, he’s looking at you…… Trish

Response:

>Hey, Terri, what’s Harlan’s Twister pose?  I havta ask because The Otter >(ChowLaBass, my own personal midget lab sumo wrestler) does this thing that >looks SO weird–he lays down with the back end and legs twisted to the right >and the front end and legs twisted toward the left with his head straight out >in front on the floor.  He is the strangest dog I’ve ever had .  His other

I’d say that counts as a Twister pose. Harlan’s is similar, but with his head and neck twisted around so that his nose is pointing toward his tail. >favorite resting thing is to be upside down against the sofa or a wall–and >everytime you glance at him, he’s watching you…..reminds me of one of these >Jesus pictures when no matter where you are in the room, he’s looking at >you……

Heh. –Terri & Harlan, Canine Contortionist — Looking for a pet? Live in the Kansas City area? Check out http://www.critterconnection.com/shelterindex.html Hey, it worked for me — it’s how I met this guy: http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/harlan.html

Response:

stingingly funny pseudo conversation: Jer snivels: > I have no idea what you are trying to say, you’re blubbering all over yourself. > J.

Oh now, what’s the problem here? Can’t keep up with the conversation?? Poor fella, maybe an Evelyn Woods reading program would help. Kisses, Lois E.

Response:

> snip > That, or he hasn’t figured out that you and I are two different people. > Well, I can understand his confusion. You have one dog, I have 3. > You live in the Midwest, I live in the West.

Well, they both have "west" in them! Be fair! > You last name starts with a W., mine starts with a B, (or M) on these

And if you turn an M upside down, what do you get? Hmmm? > ngs. You have rare wit and writing skills which come across well on > the ngs, I do not.

Now, I certainly wouldn’t say that. > I can fire a gun off at home without violating any laws, you cannot.

True. > I fear my humor is rather dry and subtle and often missed. > You are young, I am not.

Young? No, I’m childish. There’s a difference. > BG! > We both work in the scientific fields, though, and both love science; > so do you think that’s what is messing him up?

Also, we are both CHYX. And we are both convinced Jerry’s head is made of baloney. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of > >barrell"…. > >Around here, you get an  *auto alpha submissive roll* just trying > >to run the gauntlet from kitchen to living room..You are REQUIRED > >to stop and pet dog tummies while they’re in their *submissive* > >posture. ( It ain’t too dignified to see a big ol’ GSD watching > >for you and then rolling over with legs spread, tummy exposed and > >loose lips falling back to reveal their teefs… > Harlan does that, usually while curled up pretzel-like. I’ve never > had a dog with such loose lips before. Very attractive flooped all > over the floor like that. > LOL! > Try the lip *flipple*.. (Thanks Tante Jane). Flibble the lips > in that mode to see if you get a reaction.

Heh. I’ll try that and report back. > I think Jane gave up: these guys just opened an  eye, looked at her > and groaned and sighed deeper into sleep. > And the drool! I can walk over a spot on the carpet after the boys > have had their droopy lips on it and feel the dampness with my bare > foot. > yuk…

I got Harlan a couple of weeks before Christmas. This is after being dogless for far, far too long. We went to my mom’s for the holiday weekend, and on the way home I sat in the back seat with him while he slept with his head on my leg. When we got home, I had this huge drool spot on my jeans. And you know? It made me so happy, I just couldn’t stop smiling. I’ll never go without a dog that long again! > Isn’t it funny!!!??? > Come to think of it, I have very few photos of them in action. > Most are of them being couch potatoes or laying on their backs.

I need to get one when he’s in his "Twister" pose. –Terri & Harlan — Also, just when you think you have them all down——Llama spit comes around in one form or another. — Frederick Hassen 5/23/99 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > snip >Terri said: > > And, as I recall, I was talking to Denna about the alpha roll. > Jerry repeats hysterically: > Yes, it has been thoroughly discredited. > Lois says: > Whether you say it’s been discredited or not, THATS WHAT SHE WAS TALKING > ABOUT…..not that her dog rolls over submissively…….it’s your reading > comprehension the Black box can’t fix isn’t it? > Jer paces, wringing his hands: > So much for your cerebellum. I’ve posted about the concept of the alpha > rollover. > That is not what we are talking about. I’m aware of where you are going > with > this, and it won’t fly. > Lois says: > Okay Jer…..where am I going with this and just why won’t it fly? Did I > lapse into code or something? You gotta be careful, that paranoia thing is > creeping up on you again. > Jerry weeps: > You’re firing blanks. > Lois shoots > > Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"…. > Blanks, maybe…….why don’t you stand real close, Jer…and we’ll see? > Jer loooks over his shoulder in panic and says: > Don’t pull that smart shit with me. That’s not what we were talking about. >  Lois says > It isn’t? then why don’t you give me a hint here. What ARE we talking about? > Your inability to relate to sane people….the Easter Bunny???  Santa > Claus??? What the hell are YOU talking about Jer?? >  Terri says: > > However, when training young Darcy, (the alpha bitch from hell), > > I really DID have to do a real_ alpha roll. >Jer, looking very much like that reefer smoking hysterical guy in "Reefer > Madness" says: > Yes, you didn’t know it was not recommended until I came here and raised > and > still am raising hell about it. Recommended by all the best experts, now > it’s no > dam good. I’ve been saying that for over thirty F’n years. >Jer lapses into maniacal raving: > If you don’t need suggestions from me, why the hell are you having dogs > challenge > you like that? That is not normal, well adjusted behavior. > Lois says: > Jer….I think you’d probably be the last person on earth that I would seek > out to advise me on what normal, well adjusted behavior would be……be it > canine or human. Plus, the dog in question, Darcy, has gone to the rainbow > bridge, where all good dogs go….I don’t think Terri would have bothered to > ask you in the first place, because she had it under control. As much as it > kills you…..we don’t need you here Jer…..and some of us hope you go > away…..soon. Or get committed….that would be okay too. >Jer raves on, waving his hands over his head: > You challenge the dog, and cause him stress and loose his trust, his > confidence > in you, and his respect for you. That is why it is not recommended, not > just > because it is physically dangerous. It is emotionally damaging to the dog > and his > relationship with you, and everyone else around him. > Lois says: > Think we’d better ask the horses mouth……Terri, did Darcy seem to lose > all respect for you? Did you notice that she started hanging out with a > rough bunch of bikers…..had trouble with her staying out after curfew?? > tsk tsk, even an unplanned pregnancy? Well now you know why, it was that > damned Alpha roll. > > Darcy, was (and to date still is_), > > The hardest-headed alpha bitch that ever challenged my skills. >Jer collapses, weeping into his hands before he shakes his fists impotently > at the sky: > Skill? Brutality is not skill. Fast hands are skill in the fighting ring, > not the > dog show ring. > Lois says: > Uh Jer, howe……(I’m so clever….I just made a play on Jer’s name tee > hee)….how would you know that? From your writings I don’t think you’ve > ever been to a dog show. > Terri says: > I never had to abuse her in doing the alpha roll. > Jer rocks back and forth, rending his clothing and pulling clots of hair > from his head: > It is not the amount of force, it is the concept of force. A love tap in > the > wrong tone is devastating to the psyche. Can’t you figure these things > out? > You guys get your MACHO cookies off, pushing around your dogs, in a > gentle, > loving way, no doubt. > Lois says: > Well, here’s one way you go off course…I know you would love the world to > be populated by only men, but alas, there are women on this group, and  we > aren’t necessarily trying to be MACHO. We’re just trying to have well > behaved dogs. It’s not a macho thing at all….we leave that up to real > men…not ones like you. > Jer flounces away, calling over his shoulder: > That’s nothing to you, but it don’t fly here. The concept is despicable. > Lois says: > What? The concept of having well behaved, well trained dogs….I thought > that was our goal…… > Jer, storms to his room, pausing long enough to shout: > And when you get old and feeble they may try to kill you… > Lois says: > Oh Jer, Jer, Jer, we aren’t talking about your kids, if you have any. We are > talking about dogs. Do you honestly believe that there is going to be a dog > revolt? That some day all the dogs will get on the phone (once they get that > tricky doorknob thing figured out) coordinate and then kill us all in our > beds? Poor, poor, man. Why don’t you just lie down and take a nap. You > really need one. > Jer screams through his locked bedroom door: > Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints > to my > personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar > none: > Poor delusion man. Do you honestly believe that any of us READ your sig > file???? > Oh and Jer…….FU too, and I mean that in the nicest way. > Love, > Lois E.

I have no idea what you are trying to say, you’re blubbering all over yourself. J.

Response:

> snip >Terri said: > And, as I recall, I was talking to Denna about the alpha roll.

Jerry repeats hysterically: > Yes, it has been thoroughly discredited.

Lois says: Whether you say it’s been discredited or not, THATS WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT…..not that her dog rolls over submissively…….it’s your reading comprehension the Black box can’t fix isn’t it? Jer paces, wringing his hands: > So much for your cerebellum. I’ve posted about the concept of the alpha rollover. > That is not what we are talking about. I’m aware of where you are going with > this, and it won’t fly.

Lois says: Okay Jer…..where am I going with this and just why won’t it fly? Did I lapse into code or something? You gotta be careful, that paranoia thing is creeping up on you again. Jerry weeps: > You’re firing blanks. Lois shoots > Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"….

Blanks, maybe…….why don’t you stand real close, Jer…and we’ll see? > Jer loooks over his shoulder in panic and says: > Don’t pull that smart shit with me. That’s not what we were talking about.

 Lois says It isn’t? then why don’t you give me a hint here. What ARE we talking about? Your inability to relate to sane people….the Easter Bunny???  Santa Claus??? What the hell are YOU talking about Jer??  Terri says: > However, when training young Darcy, (the alpha bitch from hell), > I really DID have to do a real_ alpha roll. >Jer, looking very much like that reefer smoking hysterical guy in "Reefer Madness" says: > Yes, you didn’t know it was not recommended until I came here and raised and > still am raising hell about it. Recommended by all the best experts, now it’s no > dam good. I’ve been saying that for over thirty F’n years. >Jer lapses into maniacal raving: > If you don’t need suggestions from me, why the hell are you having dogs challenge > you like that? That is not normal, well adjusted behavior.

Lois says: Jer….I think you’d probably be the last person on earth that I would seek out to advise me on what normal, well adjusted behavior would be……be it canine or human. Plus, the dog in question, Darcy, has gone to the rainbow bridge, where all good dogs go….I don’t think Terri would have bothered to ask you in the first place, because she had it under control. As much as it kills you…..we don’t need you here Jer…..and some of us hope you go away…..soon. Or get committed….that would be okay too. >Jer raves on, waving his hands over his head: > You challenge the dog, and cause him stress and loose his trust, his confidence > in you, and his respect for you. That is why it is not recommended, not just > because it is physically dangerous. It is emotionally damaging to the dog and his > relationship with you, and everyone else around him.

Lois says: Think we’d better ask the horses mouth……Terri, did Darcy seem to lose all respect for you? Did you notice that she started hanging out with a rough bunch of bikers…..had trouble with her staying out after curfew?? tsk tsk, even an unplanned pregnancy? Well now you know why, it was that damned Alpha roll. > Darcy, was (and to date still is_), > The hardest-headed alpha bitch that ever challenged my skills. >Jer collapses, weeping into his hands before he shakes his fists impotently at the sky: > Skill? Brutality is not skill. Fast hands are skill in the fighting ring, not the > dog show ring.

Lois says: Uh Jer, howe……(I’m so clever….I just made a play on Jer’s name tee hee)….how would you know that? From your writings I don’t think you’ve ever been to a dog show. Terri says: > I never had to abuse her in doing the alpha roll.

Jer rocks back and forth, rending his clothing and pulling clots of hair from his head: > It is not the amount of force, it is the concept of force. A love tap in the > wrong tone is devastating to the psyche. Can’t you figure these things out? > You guys get your MACHO cookies off, pushing around your dogs, in a gentle, > loving way, no doubt.

Lois says: Well, here’s one way you go off course…I know you would love the world to be populated by only men, but alas, there are women on this group, and  we aren’t necessarily trying to be MACHO. We’re just trying to have well behaved dogs. It’s not a macho thing at all….we leave that up to real men…not ones like you. Jer flounces away, calling over his shoulder: > That’s nothing to you, but it don’t fly here. The concept is despicable.

Lois says: What? The concept of having well behaved, well trained dogs….I thought that was our goal…… Jer, storms to his room, pausing long enough to shout: > And when you get old and feeble they may try to kill you…

Lois says: Oh Jer, Jer, Jer, we aren’t talking about your kids, if you have any. We are talking about dogs. Do you honestly believe that there is going to be a dog revolt? That some day all the dogs will get on the phone (once they get that tricky doorknob thing figured out) coordinate and then kill us all in our beds? Poor, poor, man. Why don’t you just lie down and take a nap. You really need one. Jer screams through his locked bedroom door: > Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my > personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar

none: Poor delusion man. Do you honestly believe that any of us READ your sig file???? Oh and Jer…….FU too, and I mean that in the nicest way. Love, Lois E.

Response:

> snip > > Jerry says : > > Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to > > do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing > > me. > >What gives? > Is he still yammering? LOL! Gads, you’d think he’s learn by now when > he’s > being ignored or has been killfiled as someone not worth reading!

I beg your pardon???? Sounding a little like frantikfreddie. > And, as I recall, I was talking to Denna about the alpha roll.

Yes, it has been thoroughly discredited. > Guess the fact he’s yammering means I hit a nerve on how to train a dog > without using his way, eh?

You smart guys here always do, that’s why I’m here. > What gives is that Terri doesn’t have a problem with her dogs submissively

What gives is, that she said her dog rolls over when she tries to do certain things with him. > what gives is that she is telling Denna that she KNOWS > reading comprehension huh?

So much for your cerebellum. I’ve posted about the concept of the alpha rollover. That is not what we are talking about. I’m aware of where you are going with this, and it won’t fly. > In fact I’ve left the post in my response for

You’re firing blanks. > Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"…. > Around here, you get an  *auto alpha submissive roll* just trying to run > the gauntlet > from kitchen to living room..You are REQUIRED to stop and pet dog > tummies > while they’re in their *submissive* posture. ( It ain’t too dignified > to see a big ol’ GSD watching for you and then rolling over with legs > spread, tummy exposed and loose lips falling back to reveal their > teefs… > Got us_ trainied pretty good,eh? > Poor, abused puppies! >

Don’t pull that smart shit with me. That’s not what we were talking about. > However, when training young Darcy, (the alpha bitch from hell), > I really DID have to do a real_ alpha roll.

Yes, you didn’t know it was not recommended until I came here and raised and still am raising hell about it. Recommended by all the best experts, now it’s no dam good. I’ve been saying that for over thirty F’n years. > I’ve never had to do it with the 3 boys and I believe though > Taffy and I went ’round the bend with her growling when "someone > who shall remain nameless "let her get away with it.

If you don’t need suggestions from me, why the hell are you having dogs challenge you like that? That is not normal, well adjusted behavior. > What I did was pick her up, move her around, lower my voice to > scold and hold her when I did, but I don’t recall ever having > used the real_ alpa roll on her.

You challenge the dog, and cause him stress and loose his trust, his confidence in you, and his respect for you. That is why it is not recommended, not just because it is physically dangerous. It is emotionally damaging to the dog and his relationship with you, and everyone else around him. > Darcy, was (and to date still is_), > The hardest-headed alpha bitch that ever challenged my skills.

Skill? Brutality is not skill. Fast hands are skill in the fighting ring, not the dog show ring. > She learned real young that she was NOT the Queen bitch, I was. > After I rolled her a couple of times, she never challenged me again; > but boy, at first when she did, we had a go round. Oddly enough, I > never had to abuse her in doing the alpha roll.

It is not the amount of force, it is the concept of force. A love tap in the wrong tone is devastating to the psyche. Can’t you figure these things out? You guys get your MACHO cookies off, pushing around your dogs, in a gentle, loving way, no doubt. > Go figure, eh?

You go figure. I’ve already figured it out. > The other 4 dogs I’ve had never needed much more than > a low gutteral growling from me to learn that I could take anything > from them I wanted to, whenever I wanted to.

That’s nothing to you, but it don’t fly here. The concept is despicable. And when you get old and feeble they may try to kill you… Can you say allelomimetic behavior? Do you understand that these dogs are going to copy your actions and attitudes? You should be using this to your advantage. But instead, you teach them by example what they shouldn’t be doing. Ever hear the expression "shit rolls downhill?" What are you teaching your dogs to do to your kids… ? > I never did get instant downs without some_ grumbling and smart-mouthing > from > Darcy; (not good for the obedediance ring),in her entire 11 yrs. of > life.

Is that what you like? You taught her to be like that, through your ignorance and dominating attitude. But years ago, nobody else knew. Now you do know. Is that what you want for everyone else out there foolish enough to follow your backward advice? > But she DID go down when she was told to.

deleted text > OTOH, I must have done something right, eh? I mean, she grew up around > my young son without ever growling, snapping or biting him.

Sheer luck? It ain’t over till the fat lady sings… > Terri

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none: If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, shock, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training  http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Group, > Okay Jer, > Let’s look at what you’ve writted here: >Jerry says: >  > I rarely submitt a new thread: > On the surface that is true. What you usually do is take some > that the person is a heartless dog abuser, to that same person in a > different thread all together. >  >Jerry says: >They are harmless at first glance, but looked at carefully, goes to the > root of the problem. > The problem is the fact that you believe you are the only person in the > US….maybe even in the world….who can train a dog. And you have the > hand, do you often have the urge to put your hand inside your > Jerry says : > Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to > do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing > me. >What gives? > What gives is that Terri doesn’t have a problem with her dogs submissively > reading comprehension huh?  In fact I’ve left the post in my response for > Lois E. > > >About the alpha roll, while it’s not something I’m ever_ going > > >to recommend to someone else, it *is* something I am quite > > comfortable > > >doing; but then,;I *know* my own dogs quite well and how to handle > > them > > >without being abusive. > > >Terri > But you’ll never catch me encouraging it’s use around here, unless I > > know the person in question knows the alpha roll AND the dog really > > well… in which case, they probably don’t need my help anyway. > > Denna Lasik

The alpharollover has been discredited. It causes behavior problems and should never, ever, be done, no matter howe abusive that trainer is competent to be. FU

Response:

snip > That, or he hasn’t figured out that you and I are two different people.

Well, I can understand his confusion. You have one dog, I have 3. You live in the Midwest, I live in the West. You last name starts with a W., mine starts with a B, (or M) on these ngs. You have rare wit and writing skills which come across well on the ngs, I do not. I can fire a gun off at home without violating any laws, you cannot. I fear my humor is rather dry and subtle and often missed. You are young, I am not. BG! We both work in the scientific fields, though, and both love science; so do you think that’s what is messing him up? >Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"…. >Around here, you get an  *auto alpha submissive roll* just trying to run >the gauntlet from kitchen to living room..You are REQUIRED to stop and pet dog >tummies while they’re in their *submissive* posture. ( It ain’t too dignified >to see a big ol’ GSD watching for you and then rolling over with legs >spread, tummy exposed and loose lips falling back to reveal their >teefs… > Harlan does that, usually while curled up pretzel-like. I’ve never had a dog > with such loose lips before. Very attractive flooped all over the floor like > that.

LOL! Try the lip *flipple*.. (Thanks Tante Jane). Flibble the lips in that mode to see if you get a reaction. I think Jane gave up: these guys just opened an  eye, looked at her and groaned and sighed deeper into sleep. And the drool! I can walk over a spot on the carpet after the boys have had their droopy lips on it and feel the dampness with my bare foot. yuk… Isn’t it funny!!!??? Come to think of it, I have very few photos of them in action. Most are of them being couch potatoes or laying on their backs. r >Got us_ trainied pretty good,eh? >Poor, abused puppies! >:) > Help! Call the Humane Society!

Please do! We could teach them a thing or two about how to train dogs. Luke Mojo and Taffy, * Whazzat mom"? "Don’t worry boys, go back to sleep, there is no HSUS around us". Other Terri…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >snip > > Jerry says : > > Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to > > do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing > > me. > >What gives? >Is he still yammering? LOL! Gads, you’d think he’s learn by now when >he’s >being ignored or has been killfiled as someone not worth reading! >And, as I recall, I was talking to Denna about the alpha roll. >Guess the fact he’s yammering means I hit a nerve on how to train a dog >without using his way, eh?

That, or he hasn’t figured out that you and I are two different people. Or both. >Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"…. >Around here, you get an  *auto alpha submissive roll* just trying to run >the gauntlet from kitchen to living room..You are REQUIRED to stop and pet dog >tummies while they’re in their *submissive* posture. ( It ain’t too dignified >to see a big ol’ GSD watching for you and then rolling over with legs >spread, tummy exposed and loose lips falling back to reveal their >teefs…

Harlan does that, usually while curled up pretzel-like. I’ve never had a dog with such loose lips before. Very attractive flooped all over the floor like that. >Got us_ trainied pretty good,eh? >Poor, abused puppies! >:)

Help! Call the Humane Society! –Terri & Harlan (oh! the dogmanity!) — Looking for a pet? Live in the Kansas City area? Check out http://www.critterconnection.com/shelterindex.html Hey, it worked for me — it’s how I met this guy: http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/harlan.html

Response:

snip > Jerry says : > Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to > do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing > me. >What gives?

Is he still yammering? LOL! Gads, you’d think he’s learn by now when he’s being ignored or has been killfiled as someone not worth reading! And, as I recall, I was talking to Denna about the alpha roll. Guess the fact he’s yammering means I hit a nerve on how to train a dog without using his way, eh? > What gives is that Terri doesn’t have a problem with her dogs submissively > reading comprehension huh?  In fact I’ve left the post in my response for

Kablamm! Boom! "Blowing the smoke off the other type of  barrell"…. Around here, you get an  *auto alpha submissive roll* just trying to run the gauntlet from kitchen to living room..You are REQUIRED to stop and pet dog tummies while they’re in their *submissive* posture. ( It ain’t too dignified to see a big ol’ GSD watching for you and then rolling over with legs spread, tummy exposed and loose lips falling back to reveal their teefs… Got us_ trainied pretty good,eh? Poor, abused puppies! However, when training young Darcy, (the alpha bitch from hell), I really DID have to do a real_ alpha roll. I’ve never had to do it with the 3 boys and I believe though Taffy and I went ’round the bend with her growling when "someone who shall remain nameless "let her get away with it. What I did was pick her up, move her around, lower my voice to scold and hold her when I did, but I don’t recall ever having used the real_ alpa roll on her. Darcy, was (and to date still is_), The hardest-headed alpha bitch that ever challenged my skills. She learned real young that she was NOT the Queen bitch, I was. After I rolled her a couple of times, she never challenged me again; but boy, at first when she did, we had a go round. Oddly enough, I never had to abuse her in doing the alpha roll. Go figure, eh? The other 4 dogs I’ve had never needed much more than a low gutteral growling from me to learn that I could take anything from them I wanted to, whenever I wanted to. I never did get instant downs without some_ grumbling and smart-mouthing from Darcy; (not good for the obedediance ring),in her entire 11 yrs. of life. But she DID go down when she was told to. OTOH, I must have done something right, eh? I mean, she grew up around my young son without ever growling, snapping or biting him. Terri

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Hello Group, I rarely submit a new thread, and I’m not interested in getting a long debate going in this one. But here’s a couple of dichotomies that should not be ignored. They are harmless at first glance, but when looked at carefully, goes to the root of the problem. Don’t get blind sided by accepting for yourself and your dog, this type of attitude, because it’s second rate. Not what I want for me or mine. Don’t let your thinking about what you should or should not be doing when training your dog be influenced by those here that admit to knowing right from wrong, yet take exception to doing the right things with their own dogs, because to them, it’s not important. They consider themselves exceptions to the rules. Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing me. What gives? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->About the alpha roll, while it’s not something I’m ever_ going >to recommend to someone else, it *is* something I am quite > comfortable >doing; but then,;I *know* my own dogs quite well and how to handle > them >without being abusive. >Terri > Oh, I agree with you totally; I’ve used it myself, to good effect. > But you’ll never catch me encouraging it’s use around here, unless I > know the person in question knows the alpha roll AND the dog really > well… in which case, they probably don’t need my help anyway. > Denna Lasik > "Intelligence is like a river; the deeper it runs, the less noise it > makes." > "Insults, like violence, are the last resort of the incompetent"

Here’s another in the thread:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->About the alpha roll, while it’s not something I’m ever_ going >to recommend to someone else, it *is* something I am quite comfortable >doing; but then,;I *know* my own dogs quite well and how to handle them >without being abusive. >Terri > Oh, I agree with you totally; I’ve used it myself, to good effect. > But you’ll never catch me encouraging it’s use around here, unless I > know the person in question knows the alpha roll AND the dog really > well… in which case, they probably don’t need my help anyway. >  chuckle..

Those who can use an alpha roll really don’t _need help anyway; (in dog training). I’ve YET to hear of a person I know personally , using this technique needing help in the future for aggresive  dog behavior. Terri END QUOTE Hello Tweedle dumb and Tweedle dumber Brilliant. You geniuses know it is not recommended, that it creates rather than solves behavior problems, yet you continue to insist that you are happy to ignore the most current findings, and do it any way. Howe come you guys even exist, is beyond comprehension. So much for evolution. If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, shock, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

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> Hello Group,

Okay Jer, Let’s look at what you’ve writted here: >Jerry says:

 > I rarely submitt a new thread: On the surface that is true. What you usually do is take some that the person is a heartless dog abuser, to that same person in a different thread all together.  >Jerry says: >They are harmless at first glance, but looked at carefully, goes to the

root of the problem. The problem is the fact that you believe you are the only person in the US….maybe even in the world….who can train a dog. And you have the hand, do you often have the urge to put your hand inside your > Jerry says : > Terri’s dog is subject to submissively rolling over when she attempts to > do certain things with him. Yet, she is still pondering, and criticizing > me. >What gives?

What gives is that Terri doesn’t have a problem with her dogs submissively reading comprehension huh?  In fact I’ve left the post in my response for Lois E. > >About the alpha roll, while it’s not something I’m ever_ going > >to recommend to someone else, it *is* something I am quite > comfortable > >doing; but then,;I *know* my own dogs quite well and how to handle > them > >without being abusive. > >Terri

But you’ll never catch me encouraging it’s use around here, unless I – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> know the person in question knows the alpha roll AND the dog really > well… in which case, they probably don’t need my help anyway. > Denna Lasik

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> do you often have the urge to put your hand inside your

Uh, Lois? That’s not his shirt. –Terri & Harlan — Also, just when you think you have them all down——Llama spit comes around in one form or another. — Frederick Hassen 5/23/99 Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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OMG…….you are so right…..his hand is in…..in…..(averting my eyes in embarrassment for him)…..NOT in his shirt. Lois E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> do you often have the urge to put your hand inside your > Uh, Lois? That’s not his shirt. > –Terri & Harlan > — > Also, just when you think you have them all > down——Llama spit comes around in one form or > another. > — Frederick Hassen 5/23/99 > Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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>> do you often have the urge to put your hand inside your >Uh, Lois? That’s not his shirt. >–Terri & Harlan

Terri, you have just *got* to stop!!!  mt. dew squirting out of your nose is *most* unpleasant. –shelly (who has found rpd* *most* entertaining this week, thanks in part to Terri (& Harlan, of course))

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