Question:

Hello bigdogpile,

Who says I’m a man? > who knows NOTHING about dog training as he has proved time and > time again

O.K. Talk to boob maida. He knows. He’s willng to endorse my methods. He’s been trying them, and it’s making him a better living. KERCHIING! He’s saving time, and making his job easier using my Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. Have a nice day. Jerry. j;~}

Response:

You are right…..all this from the transvestite who knows nothing about dog training. Jerry Howe (Mr Helper) (Mr. Nice Guy) (Honest Abe) Is mentally unstable and  ABUSES dogs.he is worse than a SHOCK COLLAR…the proof

"If the dog is trained properly, he does not think of his protection training as fun and games at the big dog park. During a protection class, the dogs temperature should go up to 106 and he should have loose stools within two or three minutes of beginning the lesson." He tortures dogs till  they have a temperature of 106 and have the runs. He is also a puppy mill breeder "I grew up in a professional breeding kennel. I’ve owned stud dogs who’ve sired hundreds of puppies. I’ve whelped thousands of puppies"    HOWE disgusting you are JERRY Another of Jerry’s stupid post

Of course I could be all wet. It’s possible you’ve trained him very similarly to the non force, non confrontational methods I teach, and the aggression is a result of being too gentle and kind. Dogs LEARN from copying us. It’s called allelomimetic behavior." Everyone knows if positive methods are used the aggressive behavior is NOT allelomimetic once again proving he is a fake. Jerry Howe 626 Raleigh St Orlando, FL 32805 407-425-5092 Jerry Howe and his Doggy Do Wrong are being investigated for fraud. http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/concerns.html http://deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516286408W A List of Jerry’s References from the newsgroups "Jerry Howe is a freak… I have my doubts as to whether he has ever even SEEN a dog never mind trained one. " "That’s not a training  method. It’s an abuse method. Pray tell, how does this asshole who has no business touching a dog, much less training one, achieve and control the temperature spike? " "Yeah, that’s rich. He’ll make a dog sick enough to die, ON PURPOSE, but ridicules choke chains?"  "He’s rude, annoying, obnoxious, and every other word in the book" "Doesn’t he sell magic black boxes? " "That would be the same person…his magic black box will cure *any* behavior problem, don’t you know? " "It does? It must be used by whacking the dog over the head….I’d like him to demonstrate on himself… " "And yet do you notice that the second anyone talks about choke collars and prong collars and hanging, pinching or twisting he calls it animal abuse? And spiking a dogs temp like that isent? He is a lunatic… best to be ignored. " Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

training as he has proved time and time again Jerry Howe (Mr Helper) (Mr. Nice Guy) (Honest Abe) Is mentally unstable and  ABUSES dogs.he is worse than a SHOCK COLLAR…the proof

"If the dog is trained properly, he does not think of his protection training as fun and games at the big dog park. During a protection class, the dogs temperature should go up to 106 and he should have loose stools within two or three minutes of beginning the lesson." He tortures dogs till  they have a temperature of 106 and have the runs. He is also a puppy mill breeder "I grew up in a professional breeding kennel. I’ve owned stud dogs who’ve sired hundreds of puppies. I’ve whelped thousands of puppies"    HOWE disgusting you are JERRY Another of Jerry’s stupid post

Of course I could be all wet. It’s possible you’ve trained him very similarly to the non force, non confrontational methods I teach, and the aggression is a result of being too gentle and kind. Dogs LEARN from copying us. It’s called allelomimetic behavior." Everyone knows if positive methods are used the aggressive behavior is NOT allelomimetic once again proving he is a fake. Jerry Howe 626 Raleigh St Orlando, FL 32805 407-425-5092 Jerry Howe and his Doggy Do Wrong are being investigated for fraud. http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/concerns.html http://deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516286408W A List of Jerry’s References from the newsgroups "Jerry Howe is a freak… I have my doubts as to whether he has ever even SEEN a dog never mind trained one. " "That’s not a training  method. It’s an abuse method. Pray tell, how does this asshole who has no business touching a dog, much less training one, achieve and control the temperature spike? " "Yeah, that’s rich. He’ll make a dog sick enough to die, ON PURPOSE, but ridicules choke chains?"  "He’s rude, annoying, obnoxious, and every other word in the book" "Doesn’t he sell magic black boxes? " "That would be the same person…his magic black box will cure *any* behavior problem, don’t you know? " "It does? It must be used by whacking the dog over the head….I’d like him to demonstrate on himself… " "And yet do you notice that the second anyone talks about choke collars and prong collars and hanging, pinching or twisting he calls it animal abuse? And spiking a dogs temp like that isent? He is a lunatic… best to be ignored. " Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Hello Parker, NIce to be able to talk to someone that understands enough about dog behavior to be able to share ideas with, rather than simply dispute the validity of my methods and trying to prove that I really do exist… > By the term "higher brained creatures" do you mean animals > which are > able to conceptualize hypothesis or think rationally? > (Regardless what > Dogman says, I am not arguing…I am just trying to > understand exactly > what you mean).

I’d define "higher brained creatures" as any person that can talk about dog training without asking me howe many blue ribbons I’ve got hanging out in my silver trophy display cabinet… dogs have never asked me for my resume, so I’d say that they qualify, whereas many of the posters here cannot compete intellectually with dogs, horses, pigs, monkeys, etc. > Perhaps my previous point was unclear, I was attempting > to express my belief that because praise was an unnatural > experience for > a dog, the only way praise is effective is if the dog has > been > conditioned to associate praise with some sort of good > feelings.

I teach my students to do that by praising every eye contact, even if it’s only a momentary glance. When that dog looks over at you, you gotta be praising him like he did something great. That way, the dog is always expecting lots of positive attention, and he knows howe to get it when he starts feeling like doing something like getting into mischief… It’s a safe way the dog can pull your strings, and not interrupt your routine to get some attention. The praise can be substituted with a hand signal like the international O.K. sign, or even a wink. My dogs will wink at me when they want to get cute or make me laugh… > I find > it hard to believe such association could be natural.

We make our own "natural." The man/dog relationship wasn’t natural when the first dog made friends with man. We get accustomed to doing what we think is right, and that becomes natural to us. That’s why habits are so hard to break, they have become reflexive and do not rely on our thought processes or our rationalizations to justify them. They are the boss, and we are the servant to our habits, or else they wouldn’t be called habits, would they??? >  Rather, we owners > condition the dog to be stimulated by praise.  Now, that > stimulation > might be similar to the feelings generated by what you term > parental or > peer contact or nurturing acceptance.

I think in the context Steve means, he’s talking about discipline, punishment, and forced control… You see, it’s not much different than what you and I think of, except we handle these things without the perversion of domination, control, and abuse… In it’s perversion (as in the instances of "dog trainers"), it is the opposite drive flow that is bolstering a fragile ego or overcompensating for an inferiority complex. >  But if it is true that the dog’s > response to praise is a conditioned response, does it not > follow that > one may condition the dog in a manner where praise > stimulates other > instinctual drives or emotions?

Absolutely. Although I do not use the words that you do to describe what I need my students to accomplish, we are talking about the same things, linking one drive or emotion to the idea of carrying it over into a command. I do that with praise and timing in conjunction with the commands, even if the dog has made a mistake. He is obligated to "catch up" with the flow, or be left out of the excitement. > >Another flaw in your beliefs, the only "purely" > instinctive animals, > that come right to mind, are reptiles and insects. In all > other > animals, > instinct is merely a framework that allows for life > experiences to > mold > and shape. > I did not intend to suggest canines were purely instinctive > animals.

Everybody operates on instinct and reflex, at least until those qualities are quashed by our education and our society. The ability to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities that takes humans years to develop. Next, it takes years of training for people to ignore their instincts and accept getting shafted for the rest of their lives, because people are not well equipped to challenge authority, or to think individually. It’s kind of a group survival thing, like fish school and prey animals herd. Kind of like, don’t eat me, he’s so much more tender looking, or wealthy, or… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Clearly they learn and adapt as a result of the experiences > of their > environment.  Part of how they learn (and I think you would > agree) is to > associate experiences with what feels good and what feels > bad.  My point > is that nature layed the foundation for learning through > instinct.  Even > an unexperienced canine has some drive which tells him what > feels good > or bad.  These feelings are not necessarily based on > physical > experiences. For example fear and hunger feel bad.  The > point I was > trying to make is that I believe canine instinct has > pre-programmed the > dog to associate chasing, biting, and chewing as behaviors > which have > inherent "good" feelings. My beliefs are based on the > concept that these > prey and pack type behaviors have the highest inherent level > of > satisfactory feelings for the dog.  Therefore, the dog will > naturally be > very willing to participate in any event which stimulates > the pack/prey > drives.

I suppose that is why two dogs of similar age will bond together more closely than they will with their owners. The other dog is more satisfying to them… I wonder howe satisfying a dominant trainer is, when the dog only wants to feel good, bond, and be partners? >  So why not condition praise to stimulate this area?  And > when > developing training exercises why not try and organize them > in a manner > which would stimulate the prey/pack instinct?  It is all > based on > counter conditioning.

Well, that would take a little thinking, wouldn’t it? Although there is a time to think, it isn’t when you are trying to jerk and choke your dog into submission and make yourself look MACHO by whupping on a little dog, is it?  Let’s leave the thinking to people that don’t have to train their dogs. We got to react and confront a behavior, rather than spend a few minutes to change it by using a little thought and strategy… Otherwise, the dog may learn a bad habit, like trusting a schizophrenic trainer to not go berserk and choke him for a while because he didn’t sit when the big Kahuna "commands." I never give my dogs commands, they respond instantly to requests, because they enjoy working for me, commands challenge them and shuts off their "drive flow," and makes the handler tense and frustrated if the commands are not followed immediately by the dog. We’ve really got to reconsider and reorganize our approach to training our dogs, because everything our "experts" here are doing is going opposite of what the dog believes to be true as presented to him by nature. > This is why I think you are right that tug-of-war is a great > game.

I personally do not use it for play or training, but there is no reason not to. At first it threw me off a little, when I heard some of the ideas expressed as "play" training. I laughed and almost ignored the good stuff about drive flow and instinct, like you are talking about now. Then I finally got what Canis55 had been discussing, and I realized that "play training" is serious stuff… > You > are stimuating the dog’s prey drive.  You are a direct > participant in > the "good" feelings.  You are right there egging the dog on > and praising > him.

Yes, exactly, until the dog does something that "deserves" a correction, and then the peak of drive flow is interrupted and anchored to a negative correction. Tough break for the dog, foolish maneuver for the trainer, and that’s usually about when I get called to help out another dog that is turning on his handler… > The whole exercise is one of counter conditioning.  It is > not a > big leap to take the concept further and into training.  I > just think it > is possible to condition your dog so that commands from you, > or a > whistle, or a happy shout, or a kissing noise, or a slight > tug on the > collar can be delivered in such a way as to incite a > pavlonian response > in your dog.

Of course. Furthermore, we can do the same thing with people, without even making them aware of what we are doing, once you understand the principles. Turning your dog on to want to work for you, is no more difficult than turning on your mate to make love, or commanding the children’s attention. All you gotta do is know howe to anchor a feeling, and trigger it when you want to use it on that individual… We’re talking about some pretty powerful stuff here, playing with various states of mind and levels of emotions like a card trick, manipulating them at will in another person or our dog. > Your action will directly stimulate the dogs prey drive > creating potential energy.

Or, you could go in the opposite direction, and anchor the stimulus to another drive. It’s kind of like a smorgasbord of behaviors that we can pick from, take some more, get some other, and make what we want. > By completing the action you are commanding > the dog to do the dog converts the potential energy to > kinetic and > consequentially realizes the flow of good feelings.  And the > only way > the dog can release the energy and realize the good feelings > is by > obeying.

That would be good, but the dog will have learned from experience that every time he feels good, the trainer is likely to freak out and correct him for putting his mouth on him, or for jumping up, or for acting like he was having fun, or because he works too slowly, or because it’s time to get serious about training, like in those group classes where everybody is going to look at you if you make a mistake, and wait for you to show the dog who is the boss. When sit means … read more »

Response: