Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >She broke the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me, >Here’s part of your problem, Ludwig.  She had already broken one >command by not staying, eh?  Then you immediately gave her *another* >command, to "come," and she broke that one, too, eh? >By giving her another command after she’d just broken one, you made it >virtually impossible for you to "correct" her EFFECTIVELY for her >misbehavior. >Deal with *one* violation at a time.  And deal with it *immediately.* >Otherwise your dog will never figure out what she’s actually being >"corrected" for.

Yes, of course.  I see.  I have to keep that in mind. >I suspect she was just trying to get by you, to escape, etc.  She >wasn’t trying to intimidate you, she was just giving you the FINGER.

Probably.  She just had the same look in her eye that she gets when she goes after cats. >And hopefully your "conversation" with her was strong enough to make >her understand that you’re just *not* going to tolerate her >DISOBEDIENCE.

I believe it was.  She does know the commands.  You were correct when you said it was ridiculous to be afraid of her recall or really of any other off-leash commands.  I’m just not used to such willful disobedience from a dog and don’t have so much experience in dealing with it. >That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have >been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s >with her owner, not me).   >[...] >Getting away with murder, Ludwig, is a self-perpetuating force.  The >more often she gets away with something, the more often she’ll try >something.

I think that’s the crux of the problem, her owner has let her get away with things since puppyhood.  She has tried to do some training, but Emily does give her the finger quite often and the owner’s corrections are at best, ineffective. I’ve always thought that made off-leash obedience with me somewhat less than fully effective, though I suppose it really shouldn’t.  She’s perfect on-leash for me, there’s no reason she shouldn’t be just as good off-leash for me, regardless of how she is with her owner. Still, in the past month, she has become more dominant – marking, territorial barking, rushing other dogs.  She apparently scared the hell out of a lady with a little Pekingese the other night.  Emily’s starting to get quite a reputation. The owner is a nice lady, but as you might put it, a clueless doofus in regard to dog training.   Any tips on dealing with doofus owners? Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Thanks for a very helpful post, Dogman.

You bet.  And thanks for the thanks. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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> >I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having >been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve >found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if >I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s >’attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away. > IK, if you’ve got her on a collar and 30 ft. cord, how in the hell > does is she able to play "keep away"? > Why don’t you just REEL HER IN? > Are you using a training book, video, what?

Its "LK" not "IK", and if you reread my post, you will note that I said she "can’t do keep away" which was in response to someone else who said their dog does keep away. My methods are working great. My dog does know sit, stay, down, down-stay,, and she’s getting to be very reliable with come.

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Its "LK" not "IK", and if you reread my post, you will note that >I said she "can’t do keep away" which was in response to someone >else who said their dog does keep away. My methods are working great. >My dog does know sit, stay, down, down-stay,, and she’s getting >to be very reliable with come.

Okay, "LK," pardon me for trying to help you. :>( — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >[...] >How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t >’remind’ them and they start to play keep away.   >The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result. >It wasn’t because of the aversive, Ludwig, it was because of the dog’s >DISOBEDIENCE.   >He was telling you, "Hey, I’ll come whenever I’m good and ready!"   >He was giving you the FINGER, Ludwig.

Yes, I believe that was the attitude she was conveying. <Snip> >It wasn’t the method, Ludwig.  The dog was probably just giving you >the Finger.  Dog’s *do* that, you know?

Perhaps, but this was before I read Koehler and understood the importance and the role of praise.   At that point I had kind of trained two dogs and thought I was hot stuff.  I have learned a little bit since then.  It would probably not happen now.  Of course anything I did was an improvement over her owner, this was an eleven month old Lab that didn’t even know how to ‘Sit’. >Perhaps you spooked the dog with your demeanor on the way out there, >but so what?  You *still* must walk the dog down and get the message >across that you simply will not tolerate disobedience to this command. >Yes, even if you have to walk her down right into the next county! >And if you do this correctly once, the chances are great that you >won’t ever have to do it twice. >Curing "keep away" is pretty easy to do, Ludwig, if you will just make >up your mind that you’re not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. >TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but >CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they?

By coincidence there were a few consequences today.  A situation presented itself where I figured she would break a command (kids and a ball).  She broke the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me, that’s a BIG distraction for her, still, yes, she does know better, she has obeyed before in that situation.  In effect, she gave me the ‘finger’.  It was in a large apartment hallway so walking her down was easy.  When she found she was trapped, the little bitch actually had the audacity to charge/rush me trying to intimidate or get by me.  We had a little conversation. That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s with her owner, not me).  Somebody was saying how aggressive Emily (Lab) was towards her dog when she realized Emily was in a ‘Down-Stay’ with me ignoring her dog.  She didn’t even recognize Emily.  The episodes have happened in the past month, since she’s turned three.  Emily has never tried to intimidate me before, that was a new behavior.  It would appear that her maturity has given her some ‘balls’.  I would anticipate this will add a new dimension to working with her, it should be interesting to see. Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Well, we have been using a long (30 foot) leash so that she is >always within our control.  We also have been practicing our recalls >on our 100 ft run.  

How long have you been TEACHING her the "come" command, IL And please describe this 100 foot "run" of yours, eh? >I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having >been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve >found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if >I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s >’attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away.

IK, if you’ve got her on a collar and 30 ft. cord, how in the hell does is she able to play "keep away"? Why don’t you just REEL HER IN? Are you using a training book, video, what? — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: [...] >TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but >CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they? >By coincidence there were a few consequences today.  A situation presented >itself where I figured she would break a command (kids and a ball).  She broke >the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me,

Here’s part of your problem, Ludwig.  She had already broken one command by not staying, eh?  Then you immediately gave her *another* command, to "come," and she broke that one, too, eh? By giving her another command after she’d just broken one, you made it virtually impossible for you to "correct" her EFFECTIVELY for her misbehavior. Deal with *one* violation at a time.  And deal with it *immediately.* Otherwise your dog will never figure out what she’s actually being "corrected" for. >that’s a BIG >distraction for her, still, yes, she does know better, she has obeyed before in >that situation.  In effect, she gave me the ‘finger’.  It was in a large >apartment hallway so walking her down was easy.  When she found she was trapped, >the little bitch actually had the audacity to charge/rush me trying to >intimidate or get by me.  We had a little conversation.

I suspect she was just trying to get by you, to escape, etc.  She wasn’t trying to intimidate you, she was just giving you the FINGER. And hopefully your "conversation" with her was strong enough to make her understand that you’re just *not* going to tolerate her DISOBEDIENCE. >That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have >been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s >with her owner, not me).  

[...] Getting away with murder, Ludwig, is a self-perpetuating force.  The more often she gets away with something, the more often she’ll try something. >Emily has never tried to intimidate me before, that was a new behavior. >It would appear that her maturity has given >her some ‘balls’.  I would anticipate this will add a new dimension to working >with her, it should be interesting to see.

I think you’re still reading her wrong, Ludwig.  She’s not trying to intimidate you.  She’s just giving you the FINGER. You can’t give this kind of dog *any* slack at all. — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd > But what do you do when she refuses to come? > Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? > Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her > disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable > off-leash. >You bet!  We use a long lead line for recall work now,

You were supposed to use the long line (longe) FIRST, eh? >and when she >doesn’t come, we walk to her, and give her a collar check, with ‘bad >dog’ and then we walk backwards, with the lead in hand, demonstrating >the good dog behavior.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! IK, does your dog understand the "sit-stay" or "sit" command? If so, and while on one end of a slack 30  foot cord, have your dog "sit." Give him a while to settle in, say 15-30 seconds, and *then* give him the "come" command.  For example, say "Fido, come!" But don’t wait for him to come of his own volition! Just start REELING him in, hand over hand. When you get him to within a foot or two of in front of you, command him to "sit," again.  Correct him with the leash in the standard way if he doesn’t "sit." But *never* do this with your dog off leash until he’s already 100% reliable ON LEASH — okay? > If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a > stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, > wouldn’t you? >There is so much evidence to this fact dogman.  How many jerks out >there drive 40-50 miles an hour down a road that passes through a >thickly settled residential neighborhood.  No consequences – therefore, >repeated behavior until it becomes standard behavior.

IK, get William Koehler’s book, The Koehler Method of Dog Training. It’s absolutely the *best* one there is for training the RECALL.  (And a lot of other things, too.) Yes, a virtually 100% reliable recall. Try it, you’ll see. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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[snip] >If a dog has shown that he understands the command by fully complying >with it, say, a couple dozen times, he *knows* the command, he’s just >giving you the Finger if he then decides not to comply. >And whenever a dog gives you the Finger, it’s time for some >CONSEQUENCES. >Of course, your demeanor has to be appropriate, too, otherwise you >*can* spook the dog.  It’s *not* time to start screaming or cussing >or yelling or looking exasperated, etc., when he refuses, either.

Any of those things will keep you from getting close enough.  :-)   >Give the command ONE time, if he refuses, *immediately* start to walk >out there matter-of-factly, remaining quiet and calm *until* you get >out there.  Just bear down on him like a heat-seeking missile.

I love this image.   >Do NOT wait for him to change his mind and start back on his own! >Then, when you get out there, throw something at him or grab him by >the collar and drag him back to where you originally gave the command. >On the way back, you bet, that’s when a little "Come to Jesus" >commentary will help to make the dog realize that you’re just not >going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. >The manner in which you drag the dog back will of course depend on >the kind of dog you’re dealing with.  

A *vital* point.  With some, a pissed and disgusted look is effective. With a bonehead , you have to get their *attention*! >A soft dog doesn’t really need any rough handling, >while some dogs may need to be dragged back kicking >and screaming, *if* that’s what it takes.  

Always hard to keep a straight face, recalling some of these drags.  :-) >You can’t be squeamish about this, Ludwig.  Again, this command can >someday save a dog’s life, eh? >He *must* be 100% reliable on the recall.  Period.

Which is why the Coonies are still on lead in most situations, and why E-collar training – for *me* – is on my fall agenda.   I have gotten them to the point where they are 98% reliable, working one on one.  Girl Coonhound broke when camping in Death Valley last spring.  She faced consequences – she stayed on tie out and lead for the remainder of that trip, except at night when she invariably stays close to her pack (me). Boy Coonhound tends to spend more time with Daddy, and I expend a lot of time undoing what he has(n’t) done.  I think this post will be very helpful to him to give him a clear and coherent method to enforce the recall.  Right now, his command for come sounds like this: "Bad Dog!"   On the third, and loudest repetition, Wayward Hayward returns sheepishly.  :-)  Kinda cute, but sloppy.  Very sloppy. Thanks for a very helpful post, Dogman. Cyntyra

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> But what do you do when she refuses to come? > Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? > Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her > disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable > off-leash.

You bet!  We use a long lead line for recall work now, and when she doesn’t come, we walk to her, and give her a collar check, with ‘bad dog’ and then we walk backwards, with the lead in hand, demonstrating the good dog behavior. When she does come, even if its via being pulled with the leash line, we do praise her lots and lots! > If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a > stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, > wouldn’t you?

There is so much evidence to this fact dogman.  How many jerks out there drive 40-50 miles an hour down a road that passes through a thickly settled residential neighborhood.  No consequences – therefore, repeated behavior until it becomes standard behavior. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: [...] >How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t >’remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  

I’ve had dogs do that, too, Ludwig, but I’ve never had a dog do it to me TWICE.   Again, you just stay at it, you walk or run them down, and then you make them wish they hadn’t disobeyed. With the advent of the e-collar, though, my running and walking days are over.  That’s why I LOVE the e-collar so much. Of course, I have also gained a few pounds… :>( >The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result.

It wasn’t because of the aversive, Ludwig, it was because of the dog’s DISOBEDIENCE.   He was telling you, "Hey, I’ll come whenever I’m good and ready!"   He was giving you the FINGER, Ludwig. >I decided it was a combination of not enough training and the aversives

[...] It *may* have been not enough training, but that’s highly unlikely, especially in your case, Ludwig. You probably did a fine job of TEACHING him the command. If a dog has shown that he understands the command by fully complying with it, say, a couple dozen times, he *knows* the command, he’s just giving you the Finger if he then decides not to comply. And whenever a dog gives you the Finger, it’s time for some CONSEQUENCES. Of course, your demeanor has to be appropriate, too, otherwise you *can* spook the dog.  It’s *not* time to start screaming or cussing or yelling or looking exasperated, etc., when he refuses, either.   Give the command ONE time, if he refuses, *immediately* start to walk out there matter-of-factly, remaining quiet and calm *until* you get out there.  Just bear down on him like a heat-seeking missile. Do NOT wait for him to change his mind and start back on his own! Then, when you get out there, throw something at him or grab him by the collar and drag him back to where you originally gave the command. On the way back, you bet, that’s when a little "Come to Jesus" commentary will help to make the dog realize that you’re just not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. The manner in which you drag the dog back will of course depend on the kind of dog you’re dealing with.  A soft dog doesn’t really need any rough handling, while some dogs may need to be dragged back kicking and screaming, *if* that’s what it takes.   You can’t be squeamish about this, Ludwig.  Again, this command can someday save a dog’s life, eh? He *must* be 100% reliable on the recall.  Period. >>How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >>command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? >Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve >trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good >trainers from the also-rans. >Ah, well you’ve got me on that one.  You’ve been doing this longer than I’ve >been alive.  Two and a half years training can’t compare to what? – four and a >half decades or something like that?  

Almost four decades, Ludwig.  But you’re in the ballpark.   *You,* Ludwig, are a good enough trainer to know when a dog has learned a command, I know *that* much.  You probably just don’t feel comfortable dealing with the CONSEQUENCES of a dog’s *disobedience.* You’ve got to get over that, Ludwig.   >You are getting up there aren’t you?

Thanks for reminding me, Ludwig.  :>( [...] >And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of >praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too. >Perhaps that is what I missed (the praise), it’s been a while so I’m not sure. >Or perhaps I was over optimistic on her training.  Still, the result made me >somewhat hesitant to use such methods

It wasn’t the method, Ludwig.  The dog was probably just giving you the Finger.  Dog’s *do* that, you know? Perhaps you spooked the dog with your demeanor on the way out there, but so what?  You *still* must walk the dog down and get the message across that you simply will not tolerate disobedience to this command. Yes, even if you have to walk her down right into the next county! And if you do this correctly once, the chances are great that you won’t ever have to do it twice. >(throwing something in this case).  I >would consider her reliable with me now now, though I don’t push the issue.  

See?  You’re AFRAID of her recall!  That’s absurd, Ludwig. Either she’s trained, or she ain’t. >Of course I can always blame any problem on the owner (a friend), the dog did come >with a few difficulties built in, including keep away.  

[...] Curing "keep away" is pretty easy to do, Ludwig, if you will just make up your mind that you’re not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they? :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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ou deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t > ‘remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  The one time I tried to use > aversive consequences, I got that result.  I decided it was a combination of not > enough training and the aversives and quite literally went back to square one in > training.  And then of course, decided not to do that again.

Well, we have been using a long (30 foot) leash so that she is always within our control.  We also have been practicing our recalls on our 100 ft run.  I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s ‘attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to >satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any >consequences would have a negative effect on the recall. >No, they don’t at all, Ludwig.  I PROMISE you that, okay?  But they >have to be applied correctly and timely, too. >Once the dog knows what he’s supposed to do, he should do it.  Period. >And when he doesn’t, he should be "reminded" that he *is*going to do >it — one way or the other. >Of course, the manner of "reminder" that you give the dog is very >important.   >You’d surely never want to "remind" a dog *while* he was making any >attempt at all to come to you, but if he’s turned totally deaf on you, >and you absolutely know that he’s *heard* you, it’s time for a >"reminder."

How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t ‘remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result.  I decided it was a combination of not enough training and the aversives and quite literally went back to square one in training.  And then of course, decided not to do that again.   >How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? >Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve >trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good >trainers from the also-rans.

Ah, well you’ve got me on that one.  You’ve been doing this longer than I’ve been alive.  Two and a half years training can’t compare to what? – four and a half decades or something like that?  You are getting up there aren’t you? >What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon >the recall command and how would you apply them? >You give the dog one chance to comply.  ONE.  Period. >Then you can simply walk (or run) out there, that is, GO GET HIM >before he ever has a chance to change his mind of his own volition and >THROW something (e.g., a throw chain) at him.  Then walk him back to >the same spot where you issued the command. >And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of >praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too.

Perhaps that is what I missed (the praise), it’s been a while so I’m not sure. Or perhaps I was over optimistic on her training.  Still, the result made me somewhat hesitant to use such methods (throwing something in this case).  I would consider her reliable with me now now, though I don’t push the issue.  Of course I can always blame any problem on the owner (a friend), the dog did come with a few difficulties built in, including keep away.  Perhaps it was my training that I was over optimistic on, not the dogs’. Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Shannon writes:

:Now if I could just get the bicycles to stop :"buzzing" us and scaring the dog, we’d be in :perfect harmony! Bikers who buzz dogs that they can’t possibly have not seen well in advance of the buzzing have no grounds to complain about anything the dog does in response. But dog owners are still advised to restrain their dogs – and pray for pot holes. JohnR

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>But what do you do when she refuses to come? >Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? >Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her >disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable >off-leash. >If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a >stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, >wouldn’t you?

Yes, but consequences shouldn’t come in before the command is fully learned, yes?  And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any consequences would have a negative effect on the recall. Whenever I had difficulties with recall, I would back up and eliminate one of the difficulty factors – dogs, other distractions, distance or location.  Recall is one of the few things I have not used some sort of aversives or consequences with because I was never really sure how, when or what to apply. How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon the recall command and how would you apply them? Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But what do you do when she refuses to come? >Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? >Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her >disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable >off-leash. >If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a >stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, >wouldn’t you? >Yes, but consequences shouldn’t come in before the command is fully learned, >yes?  

Absolutely, Ludwig.  I got the impression from this person’s post that she *had* been working with the dog for some time on the recall and assumed that the dog probably was just *refusing* to come because it never had to suffer any consequences for *not* coming. I think it’s time that it did. >And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to >satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any >consequences would have a negative effect on the recall.

No, they don’t at all, Ludwig.  I PROMISE you that, okay?  But they have to be applied correctly and timely, too. Once the dog knows what he’s supposed to do, he should do it.  Period. And when he doesn’t, he should be "reminded" that he *is*going to do it — one way or the other. Of course, the manner of "reminder" that you give the dog is very important.   You’d surely never want to "remind" a dog *while* he was making any attempt at all to come to you, but if he’s turned totally deaf on you, and you absolutely know that he’s *heard* you, it’s time for a "reminder." >Whenever I had difficulties with recall, I would back up and eliminate one of >the difficulty factors – dogs, other distractions, distance or location.  Recall >is one of the few things I have not used some sort of aversives or consequences >with because I was never really sure how, when or what to apply. >How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying?

Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good trainers from the also-rans. Again, it would depend on the dog, how quickly the dog has learned other commands, etc.  Mostly it’s just common sense and experience. >What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon >the recall command and how would you apply them?

Well, Ludwig, I normally train with an e-collar.  So I can issue "reminders" from up to a mile or so away, eh?  But you don’t need an e-collar to do this, of course. You give the dog one chance to comply.  ONE.  Period. Then you can simply walk (or run) out there, that is, GO GET HIM before he ever has a chance to change his mind of his own volition and THROW something (e.g., a throw chain) at him.  Then walk him back to the same spot where you issued the command. Or, you can just slip your leash on him and drag him back to exactly where you gave the command.  Yes, forcibly, if necessary.  And you should *talk* to him *all* the way back, too, (you can talk to him in any language you prefer…German is very effective, {:>O) letting him know just how unhappy you were with his *disobedience.* And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too. Ludwig, as I’ve said here ad nauseam, the *recall* is the *most* important command that you will *ever* teach any dog.  And it would behove a trainer to treat it that way.  That is, you can *never* allow even a little slack on *this* command.  None.  Nada.  Zilch. He *must* comply with it — one way or the other. It might even save his life someday, eh? Summary: 1.) Use nothing but positive reinforcement to TEACH him the "come" command, beginning as early as possible.  The earlier the better. 2.) Gradually lengthen the distances, add distractions, etc., until you’re absolutely certain that he *understands* the command. 3.) Then INSIST that the dog comply — one way or the other. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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Thought you would like to see how cyclists see all too many dogs and dog owners.  Any comments??  If so, please cross post. Robert From rec.bicycles.misc 1. You know, sometimes it totally amazes me how people with dogs will react to cyclists… I was riding with a friend of mine a couple days ago in a city park here in Portland. There are places for dogs to go offleash, which is cool, however cyclists are NOT restricted from them.  My friend was riding her offroad bike and I was riding my touring bike. She met me at the top of the hill and was very upset because when she road through this area, there was a woman and her two dogs walking through and one of the dogs went completely berserk, ran up to her on her bike as she was riding by (some 20 or more feet away) and bit her.  When my friend reacted, the woman said "That’s what you get for riding in the leash-free area"  !!!! Unbelievable! First of all, a dog that runs up to anyone and bites is a menace… but what kind of neanderthal cretin-like  response is that????  Like she deserved the bite simply because she was in that "dog’s" space!  I suppose this woman thinks that a dog can do anything it wants and that she is not responsible for such things – I’ll laugh my ass off when she gets sued by a child’s parent because her "dog" attached that child who happened to be standing nearby – I guess she’ll say, "that’s what you get for being 3 feet tall around my dog!" It just astounds me.  Barking and growling dogs can be very disconcerting, but since its never happened to me that a dog has run up and attempted to bite me while I was riding by, its never occurred to me that it could or would happen – however now I have another thing to think about while I’m out….   Animals that are dangerous to people should not be allowed around people – to me its simply an issue of this.   Just my venting! Anna 2. I’ve had more than one experience like that. And it is amazing that the owner usually just stands there and looks. Now I don’t wait to get bit, I get off my bike (if the dog is threateningly close) with my air pump and start swinging and yelling at the dog AND the owner. The couple of times I’ve hit a dog the owner will threaten to call the police and I’ll pull out my cell phone and offer to dial it for them. So far there’s been no takers.         Skid ( I miss my dog) 3. Well, fortunately it’s not common where we now live.  When we lived in small-town Georgia, though, it was very common to be chased by dogs, and it was amazingly common for dog owners to get angry when we defended ourselves by using Halt dog spray or other measures. Dog owners can be weird indeed.  My wife and I were walking the trails in the village woods, where signs call for dogs to be under control at all times.  A little 10 pound cur was being walked by two middle aged ladies. The dog saw us, began snarling and barking and ran right for us.  I kicked it away, upon which it ran yipping back.  The owner was furious and growled "OOOHH, I could SHOOT you!!" >Just my venting!

Sometimes you’ve got to do that!  Don’t be afraid of the dogs.   Don’t let them get under your front wheel, and don’t be afraid to show them who’s boss.  Also, don’t be afraid to call the cops on people like that dog owner. — 4. I’m a dog-lover, who owns three dogs and a cyclist. I would never allow my friendly, excited dogs, who never bite, access to anyone passing by, whether they were in cars, walking, or on bikes. It’s not fair to the people OR the dogs. Who wants to be scared by a dog rushing toward you, whether they bite or not? And what friendly, curious dog deserves to be shot with mace, or injured? I carry mace in a webbed pocket off my handlebar bag at all times and if I even notice a dog eyeing me, I put it in the "on" position, ready to shoot. In addition, I have a good-sized pump at the ready which could be used to swing at an attacking dog. I’ve never used the pump, though I have used the spray several times. It has worked well and I’ve never been bitten. I also don’t spray tiny dogs because I’m afraid it could really hurt them and they can’t hurt me anyway, as long as I make sure they don’t get under my wheel. I also often cross to the other side of the road to show the dog that I have no intention of getting in its yard, and walk away slowly while keeping an eye on the dog. Usually this works.

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*snip* >leash-free area"  !!!! Unbelievable! First of all, a dog that runs up >to >anyone and bites is a menace… but what kind of neanderthal >cretin-like  response is that????  Like she deserved the bite simply >because she was in that "dog’s" space!  I suppose this woman thinks >that >a dog can do anything it wants and that she is not responsible for >such >things – I’ll laugh my ass off when she gets sued by a child’s parent >because her "dog" attached that child who happened to be standing >nearby >- I guess she’ll say, "that’s what you get for being 3 feet tall >around >my dog!"

*snip* >Animals that are dangerous to people should not be allowed around >people >- to me its simply an issue of this.   >Just my venting! >Anna

*snip* I agree heartily with this.  Leash-free area or not, the owner of an aggressive dog has *NO* business letting her dog off leash in a public place.  People like this are the reason so many parks do NOT allow leash-free areas, and many no longer allow dogs at all.   Denna Lasik Bored?  Nothing better to do with your time? Then come see my Completely Useless Webpage! there’s some new stuff here! (well, ok, not much, but some) http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/~windwolf "Intelligence is like a river; the deeper it runs, the less noise it makes."

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: Thought you would like to see how cyclists see all too many : dogs and dog owners.  Any comments??  If so, please cross post. No responsible dog owner would have a problem with any of the comments you shared.  Our access to public lands is threatened by the kind of people described who run their dogs off leash in violation of rules, or allow their dogs to be out of control or threatening to anyone.  That also applies to sweet, non-aggressive dogs who have their prey drive buttons pushed by cyclists.  We don’t want those people out on the trails anymore than you do. But bad examples of any group tend to give people bad impressions of the group as a whole, and this applies to cyclists as well as dog owners.  You’ll hear dog owners complain about off-road cyclists coming down hills out of control and at excessive speed, not allowing sufficient time to get out of their way.  Not only is it by far the most common citation I write while doing trail patrols on our local mountain, I also lost a Doberman when an airborne cyclist jumped a log on a corner at the bottom of a steep hill, hitting her squarely in the back, breaking it. (She was leashed.)  It would no more be fair for me to assume that all off-road cyclists behave irresponsibly than it is fair to assume that all dog owners do. Lynn K. —

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> I agree heartily with this.  Leash-free area or not, the owner of an > aggressive dog has *NO* business letting her dog off leash in a public > place.  People like this are the reason so many parks do NOT allow > leash-free areas, and many no longer allow dogs at all. > Denna Lasik

Agreed – except – i’d say any dog that doesn’t have good ‘recall’. Like mine.  My 10 month old lab puppy is iffy with recall. We are now using a 100 foot run, lots of distractions, and freeze dried liver, to try to train her to always come when called. We took her to a local state forest on a rainy march day, figuring no one else would be out there – and let her run off leash. She kept rushing back to us – got treats, etc.. but when she saw those intrepid mountain bikers, she went NUTS.  She ran over to each biker she saw, and jumped enthusiaastically and happily around their feet and tires, trying to kiss them. I was terrified someone would fall off their bike.  Luckily no one got angry at us – but they had every right.  That was the last time Emma went off leash, and until she is 100% recallable, there is  no way i’m going to endanger others like that again!

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Agreed – except – i’d say any dog that doesn’t have good ‘recall’. >Like mine.  My 10 month old lab puppy is iffy with recall. We >are now using a 100 foot run, lots of distractions, and freeze >dried liver, to try to train her to always come when called.

[...] First, she’s still only 10 months old, eh? But what do you do when she refuses to come? Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable off-leash. If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, wouldn’t you? — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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The first thing my dog learned NOT to do on walks was chase joggers. The second was not to chase bicycles.  I spent too much of my time as a teenage paper-deliverer chasing off dogs, and recovering from dog bites to allow my dog to even THINK about menacing someone. Not all dog owners are stupid and lazy, but the ones who are have the dogs who chase and bite. Now if I could just get the bicycles to stop "buzzing" us and scaring the dog, we’d be in perfect harmony! -Shannon & Guinness To respond, please remove the anti-spam from my address.  Thank you.

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