Question:

Yeah, just look Howe some contributors are treated. Especially the ones that MEAN well…

Response:

> The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior > than dog behavior issues. > It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding > through all the crap that is getting posted here.

Welcome to Usenet. Attempt no landings here. > Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their > reply.

Eh? The entire thread? But if people were doing that, wouldn’t the newsgroup disappear in a Black Hole of Infinite Recursion? Don’t step on the Event Horizon! It’s bad luck! > Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself?

No, it is physically impossible for me to keep my opinions to myself. If I tried to do that, my brane would explode, and Harlan would have to clean it up and install a spare. And he always gets my brane full of dog hair when he does that. Do you have any idea how much that itches? > Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else?

Probably not, in all of Usenet. Maybe when Happynet takes effect. Hold on to the dream. > If you disagree with a posting, keep it to yourself.

No. >If you really disagree, would it not be more ‘professional’ > to just post your advice without slamming someone else’s ?

I’m not particularly interested in being a professional Usenet poster. The pay’s lousy. Although, I can’t remember the last time I "slammed someone’s advice". Mostly I just make fun of the way people dress, in addition to their deeply held beliefs and traditional customs. Hmm. Maybe I should just make fun of their traditional costumes, to streamline the process. >  You don’t need to argue who has the best methods.

It’s not a question of need. It’s a question of preference. Of want. Of DESIRE, OH BABY, YES LIKE THAT (I mean, this is the Internet, after all). > If you believe yours is the best, than post the info and leave it up to the > individuals to decide.

I don’t have any advice to post, most times. I’m in charge of the Critical Thinking Brigade. For sufficiently loosly-defined values of "in charge". > If you are that confident that what you advise is > effective, you will not feel the need to argue it.

Again, not a question of need. The whole point of playing in a discussion group is, well, discussion. And making fun of people’s deeply held traditional costumers. > Is name calling and flaming beneficial to the whole group ?

It works for me. That’s the only part of the group I’m particularly concerned with. What are you, some kind of Commie? > Whether you are a touch free trainer or jerk and pull trainer

What if you are none of the above? What then? > the mission > here is to post information for people to make decisions as to what advice > to follow NOT WHOSE advice to follow.

Oh, dear, you’ve been misinformed. There is no particular mission here. Everyone sort of pick their own mission. Some people are here to sell questionable products. Some are here on behalf of plankton. Some girls just want to have fun. >It is to discuss dog behavior not to argue.

Discuss and argue are not mutually exclusive terms. Unless and until Kibo sez otherwise. > It is always good to hear both sides.

Unless the other side sucks. Then it’s BAD. >I personally don’t believe in > using physical methods since I trained elephants and believe me you can’t > FORCE an elephant to sit and you don’t want to risk 10,000 lbs being mad at > you.

Hey, the mission here is to discuss DOGS, not ELEPHANTS. Elephants are STRICTLY OFF-TOPIC. Unless they also happen to be antiques. >But dare I try to convert those of you that don’t believe in my > methods. No.  

Do I dare try to convert you to kibology? Ha. Trick question; you’re already a kibologist, whether you know it or not. >I will only offer advice based on my experience and beliefs.

I will only offer advice based on the teaching of Kibo, and what I remember from on the back of the cereal box at breakfast. And if I woke up too late to enjoy a nutritious breakfast, then who the hell knows what I’m going to post? Not me. > I will ask questions to hear other peoples thoughts on a situation.

I will ask people to shut the heck up and listen to ME ME ME ME ME. Personally, I wish you other bozos wouldn’t post here, but what can I do? > I will > always maintain an open mind as would any good dog trainer.

Not as open as my minds. I have several to chose from, and can install different points of view at random. I’m very Plug-and-Play. Top THAT. >  How many of you are members of the APPDT ?

Hardly anyone, I betcha. I betcha a whole jar of candy corn. Also, they don’t let my kind join. Stuck-ups. Not that I’d be caught dead belonging to any club that would have me as a member. >The code of ethics clearing > states that you are not to ‘bad mouth’ anyone.

In my religion, if we don’t bad mouth anyone, the Demon Beable will sic his black helicopters on us, and make us eat candy corn. > ‘Professional’ dog trainers behave in a professional manner.

Aha! I’m an amatuer, so it’s perfectly acceptable for me to behave in an amatuerish manner. LA LA LA I’m not professional. LA LA LA LA. Of course, if you wanted to pay me to post here, I would consider posting in a professional manner. (Note: I did not specify what sort of professional.) > Grow up people

Give me a break! I’m only FIVE!!!1!! > and stop wasting other people’s time.

Tsk, tsk, wasting time on Usenet. Whatever is the world coming to? > If you have something valuable to add, post it to the group otherwise keep > it private.

No problem. Everything I post is incredibly valuable. –Terri & Harlan (and yet, we still do not charge for our posts — how’s that for a bargain?) P.S. I didn’t think the post I was replying to was very valuable. Could be please retroactively post it privately?

Response:

>> Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else? >Wouldn’t that be a nice twist of events. A newsgroup >that was actually impartial to personalities and such >and just exchanged dog information and ideas.

Now that’s interesting:  Dog Information and ideas. Well, I never knew a dog that had any information or ideas worth exchanging. This is my whole complaint against dogs. You can’t get it into their retarded heads that if they do something bad, that they’ll pay for it. That’s why the threat of incarcerartion works so well, among youngsters. They don’t want to go to jail, to get fucked. OK?   So, the vast majority will never get into trouble, and not only that, but they’ll rarely turn on their parents.  Dogs, on the other hand can’t really be trained, and will turn on their owners. It sickens me how so many people think that they can be, especially owners of pit bulls. But here’s an idea or two: Keep dogs inside, always attached to something. Let’s not bash each other. Just the dogs. Kim If you really love your filthy animal, get them butt-flavored dog food. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Gwen

Response:

Hello nancy,

> "Linda" was born with a gift of laughter, and a sense that the world was mad. >of it: > The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human > behavior than dog behavior issues. > And engaging in it.

That so? >It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding >through all the crap that is getting posted here.

That’s what our "experts" do to avoid facing facts. > Filters.

You bums can’t hide the pubic from INFORMATION. >Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their >reply. > That’d be howe.  Filters.

That’d be cause the issues are complex. We’ve stumbled into a conspiracy of lying, dog abusing Thugs, koehler and shock and pronged spiked pinch choke collar fanciers who’ll do and say anything to defend their alleged right to hurt and kill dogs they’re afraid of. >Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT directed at >any one individual)

Our "experts" FEAR INFORMATION. That’s what this is all about. > FOAD.

That’s HOWE they deal with information. > BTW, you’re crossposting this to more than just a behavior > group.  Talk about rude!  To take out your ire on a mess of > newsgroups, because you dislike the behavior of a few participants > in *one* newsgroup … and emulating the behavior in the process?

No problem. Seems our OP is a professional animal trainer, and sounds like she’s seeing some INCONSISTANCIES about what’s going on here… > Do you know how to spell "hypocrite"?

Spellin AGAIN? NOPE. Not me. I’m a dog trainer. I don’t do arithmjeatik grandma and speling. >If you have something valuable to add, post it to the group otherwise keep >it private.

Don’t you think it’s relevant to realize the dog lovers who are giving us INFORMATION like to HURT dogs to train them??? > Fans of irony, take note.   Linda, next time you have a beef > with the behavior of one or two people, e-mail those people > with your complaints.  Whining to five newsgroups about this > thing is about as stupid a behavior as I can imagine.

You’re afraid of EXPOSURE. > Now GO LAY DOWN!  NO COOKIE!

Jerry don’t use no freakin cookies. > gekko (the Lizard)

This is some pretty incredible stuff. First we got our pal nancy defending hanging dogs, and then we’ve got our "expert" lying frosty dahl saying she’d never hit a dog and teaching us HOWE to beat them and pinch their ears into spikes on their collars between the brass of a shot shell: Here’s a couple quotes from our dog abusing lying Thug pals: Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.pets.dogs.pitbull, alt.pets.dogs.labrador hey, RPDB, do APDL a favor.  When that nitwitted ass-sucking jizz-licking fartbreathed piece of maggot meat howe obnoxiously crossposts to alt.pets.dogs.labradors with his insipid yatter-brained lying snot-loaded pusilanimous whackweed-induced pile of nonsense, would y’all mind snipping APDL out of your followups? or, at least, tag your followups with (ninnyboy) or (HOWE) or something? thanks a bunch! [followups set to RPDB] — nancy Search Result 8 annoying habits? (ninnyboy) Newsgroups: alt.pets.dogs.labrador View: Complete Thread (8 articles) | Original Format *quote* me, you ass-siphoning twat.  when you sign my name to your posts, you’re stealing my copyrighted material.  make sure you put *proper* quote marks around it (yours are not), or use standard Usenet citation markings. now go shake your thang elsewhere.  we talk labs here, not lies, not false, unverifiable claims, not flames, not regurgitated posts from other newsgroups that prove what a lying fuck you are. when you can sanely talk labs, feel free to join in. > chased the bright, elusive butterfly of love in message >

Response:

> > The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior > than dog behavior issues.

At least until the canine version of ViaVoice is released and babelfish is revised. > It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding > through all the crap that is getting posted here. > Welcome to Usenet. Attempt no landings here. > Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their > reply. > Eh? The entire thread? But if people were doing that, wouldn’t the > newsgroup disappear in a Black Hole of Infinite Recursion? > Don’t step on the Event Horizon! It’s bad luck! > Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself?

Not on a dog behavior group.  Unless doG above has come down and spoken from a burning bush without telling me about it (which would never happen — the not telling me part, not the burning bush speaking part), all you *can* have on a dog behavior group is opinions.  Well, that and anectodes about observations, but then people bitch about that being off topic since they don’t want to hear what you think are cutesie doggie stories that they think are insipid doggie doo. [snip the rest of the post, thread, group, dog chatter as a concession] So any ideas on how to make the dog behavior groups anything but humans talking about their behavior and opinions?  Actually, it would be a major improvement just to keep the human behavior and opinions to anything remotely resembling something useful to an actual dog owner and/or trainer and not completely insane or at least insanely stupid, from what I’ve seen, but, hey, maybe that’s just me.  (Howe ya doin’ Jerry and friends?)  

Response:

aaaaannnnnndddd your cross posting variations in opinions is a good thing, if you really disagree with one persons opinions, *and for the sake of fair play, read several post by that individual to various subjects to get an idea of their ideology as opposed to their ‘bad day rant’*  and click them off… kill file is there for a reason… Its not information thats posted here as much as support, ideas, new thoughts and old ones that we forget about sometimes.  AND there are stories and available information here too… sometimes theres even a GOOD link concerning a spam… *rarely but it happens*… ng… read the faq available on the ng…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior > than dog behavior issues. > It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding > through all the crap that is getting posted here. > Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their > reply. > Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT directed at > any one individual) > Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else? > If you disagree with a posting, keep it to yourself. If you really disagree, > would it not be more ‘professional’ to just post your advice without > slamming someone else’s ?  You don’t need to argue who has the best methods. > If you believe yours is the best, than post the info and leave it up to the > individuals to decide. If you are that confident that what you advise is > effective, you will not feel the need to argue it. > Is name calling and flaming beneficial to the whole group ? > Whether you are a touch free trainer or jerk and pull trainer the mission > here is to post information for people to make decisions as to what advice > to follow NOT WHOSE advice to follow.It is to discuss dog behavior not to > argue.  It is always good to hear both sides. I personally don’t believe in > using physical methods since I trained elephants and believe me you can’t > FORCE an elephant to sit and you don’t want to risk 10,000 lbs being mad at > you. But dare I try to convert those of you that don’t believe in my > methods. No.  I will only offer advice based on my experience and beliefs. > I will ask questions to hear other peoples thoughts on a situation. I will > always maintain an open mind as would any good dog trainer. >  How many of you are members of the APPDT ? The code of ethics clearing > states that you are not to ‘bad mouth’ anyone. > ‘Professional’ dog trainers behave in a professional manner.  Grow up people > and stop wasting other people’s time. > If you have something valuable to add, post it to the group otherwise keep > it private.

Response:

> Its not information thats posted here as much as support, ideas, new > thoughts and old ones that we forget about sometimes.

Really? You tell us to hurt our dogs to train them. > AND there are stories and available information here too…

We have storied of vicious, dead dogs. > sometimes theres even a GOOD link > concerning a spam… *rarely but it happens*…

Spam? Good links about spam? I’m interesed in dogs, not spam links. > ng… read the faq available on the ng…

Now there’s a vicious site. That’s a koehler trainer, cindymooreon. She’s been banned from two training clubs because she’s a sadist. HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider: "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? See what I mean? You can’t justify that. "Read koehler for content" marquis de shaw, IDIOT, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, IDIOT, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. Koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us  HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? That’s the ONLY question ANYONE of you CAN answer. The answer is OBVIOUS. koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS HOWE MUCH brains does it take to beat a dog every twenty minutes for the same mistake you’ve tied it next to??? But I might like shooting them with a sling shot or BB gun better, you know, to teach the dog to WANT to stay at home. IT’S IN THE BOOK. Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he’s tied him up next to, to housetrain him??? Go ahead and ASK HIM. The dirty COWARD won’t talk to me about it. He won’t talk to Marilyn about it, and he can’t say SHE’S been INCIVIL WITH HIM. We know HOWE SENSITIVE our koehler trainers are… > lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

ninnyboy DIDN’T tell you about. Decide for yourself (long) Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior View complete thread Customer reviews of The Koehler Method Of Dog Training  Old Fashioned? No Way! The answer to the question "Where Will A koehler Trainer Find A Man’s Leather Belt?" is found in the koehler text. ANSWER: "When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him." Real MEN don’t BEAT dogs to train them, so you can use a hickory switch as lying frosty dahl prefers… BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT directed at > any one individual) > Grow up people > and stop wasting other people’s time. > If you have something valuable to add, post it to the group otherwise keep > it private. > Sorry Usenet Cop….this is an unmoderated forum…what we think is > what we say and that means everyone….wise men, loons, saints and > assholes, all. And while I’m on the subject, why was this cross posted > to all and sundry? Trying to stir up a little flame war, were we? > Instead of lecuring us on what a newsgroup should be, why don’t you go > train a dog and stop wasting other people’s time. > Cheers, > Lois E

Hello lying lois, You were second to earn the lying title here. Your former pal Robert sends his regards, as does steve walker and tara reminds you to stock up on Cheddar and lysol and anchovie. Robert says his LIVE dog Rollie is enjoying his DDR…so’s some of his friends he bought one for. Cheers! j;~} Robert Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it.  This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior.  Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names.  Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are.   Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools.  Why do you act like fools?  I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.

I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing.  You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!

I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jerry has taken the time to help me out off the NG.  I have a very > loud cockatoo who has been having problems adjusting to my 8 > month old son. > Joey is learning to walk.  He likes to use Buddy’s cage as a hold on > for dear life object. > Buddy wasn’t exposed to toddlers prior to Joey.. my oder two boys went > through this stage in a different house where Buddy had his own room > and the boys had only visits, not daily contact 24/7. > Buddy has always been spooked by "tiny" humans.  Joey has been driving > him nuts!  He showed his disapproval by non-stop screaming.  A > cockatoo scream can be heard a block away with all the widows shut <g> > being in the house it makes your ears pop and your nerves crawl. > Jerry sent me Free his DDR.  He sent instructions on how to use it. > He answered my questions quite politely. > I have been using the DDR in my kitchen ( where Buddy is located~ > teensy 4 room house) for 3 weeks. > At first I noticed no difference in Buddy’s behavior.  Then I realized > afer a week that he no longer screamed for hours on end.  This isn’t > to say he stopped completely <bg>  he still demands his share of all > meals. But he doesn’t start sreaming at 10 pm when he wants _everyone > _ to go to bed. > Last week he had a day where he screamed all day.  My nerves were > frazzled.  I went to turn the DDR up a notch per Jerry’s instructions. > I discovered the DDR was shut off!  I turned it back on and left it on > the lowest setting.  Buddy calmed back down and quit screaming. > In the time that I’ve had the DDR on I’ve had a lot of c*ts come to my > house.  One I adopted and he’s quite the sweetie.  He’s a yellow tiger > named Gatomon ( means c*t monster) who is very friendly with my kids > and Zelda. > I may not like how Jerry treats other posters but I do like the > methods he shares.  Being on a limited budget I like things that are > free. I also  like the fact that I can e-mail him and get advice whenever > I need it. > Even my DH who is a technical minded kind of guy thinks the DDR is > working.  ( He went to Devry and has a degree in electronics, knows > alot about radios and anything mechanical… he’s a jack of all trades > around the house <g>).  He does NDT for a living. > We don’t expect to need the DDR forever..  As soon as Joey is walking, > Buddy will realize that he’s not a strange animal.. some kind of > furless dog or c*t <bg>. > So, yes,  there are some of us out here who do appreciate Jerry’s > methods if not his condemnation of other "regulars".  Honey, flies > that sort of thing…. > ~misty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.  Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days.  The last time, Peach didn’t > come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained.  A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence > and its collars.  If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog.  I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again.  The price was too high:-( > ~misty

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the > literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make > the dog earn everything it gets."  I tried this once or twice, just by > taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible.  The pup > got scared and just wanted to stay away from me. > That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits’ End Dog > Training > manual — that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: make yourself > the center of your puppy’s world — his personal Lord Jesus.  Never > give him a reason to fear you or think you’re angry.  Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy.  She’ll do anything I want > her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent, > and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship > with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy > Charlie

Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work – at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn’t dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won’t bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman.  (REWARD PAID BY DW.) P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won’t sell you my DDR!

Response:

> I was asked to repost my response to "Linda" here.  I had

Hello Linda,

> The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior > than dog behavior issues.

You ain’t seen nuthin yet. We’ve got quite a lineup here. > It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding > through all the crap that is getting posted here.

Yes. We’ve got a conspiracy of koehler and shock and pronged spiked pinch collar "trainers" here. And of course we also got ed w of pet loss dot CON who told a couple of folks to kill their vicious dogs rather than to give them a chance at life at my HOWES with my family where they’ll never be hurt or choked or shocked again… > Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in > their reply.

There’s a lot of history here… you want information or speculation? > Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT > directed at any one individual)

Training issues are all I’m concerned with. It’s imperative that we realize the kind of thinking our "experts" employ, before accepting their advice as valid. Let’s face it, you don’t ask a fisherman who’s not catching fish what’s he using for bait, unless you want to avoid using the same. It’s the same with dog training. We wouldn’t want to accept advice that’s had a history of killing dogs, would we? Our "experts" expect casualties in training. Jerry don’t. Jerry expects every dog to train the same as every other dog. Probably much as you expect every animal to train much the same as every other animal, if you’re using effective scientific methods, CORRECT? > Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else?

Sure. There’s no personal bashing in my posts, I talk about METHODS, not personalities and personal achievements and PALS who defend my methods. My arguments are not directed at personalites, only their methods. This is strictly professional. > If you disagree with a posting, keep it to yourself.

I show what’s wrong with the thinking employed in the posts I disagree with. > If you really disagree, would it not be more ‘professional’ to just post your > advice without slamming someone else’s ?

When excellent non violent advice is posted here, our twenty lying dog abusing Thugs tell the poster the non violent methods do not work and will jeaopardize their dog’s lives… like Fritz, Sampson, and Summer and many other DEAD DOGS we’ve entertained here. People who achieve success using my method are call liars. Ask Charles, Jerome, Marilyn, Canis55, Robert Crim, or Paul B… They’re all liars to be killfiled, if you ask our "experts." > You don’t need to argue who has the best methods.

Right. That’s evident when the methods are described and compared. The problem is, we cannot have DISCUSSIONS with LIARS. > If you believe yours is the best, than post the info and leave it up to the > individuals to decide.

Well yes, that would be nice, but our experts conspire to convince folks the non violent methods do not work. They’ll do and say anything to defend their alleged right to hurt and kill dogs to train them. That’s HOWE it’s been on rpdb till I noticed what’s up, and came in here armed with INFORMATION to kill these vicious lying dog abusing bastards using their own words. > If you are that confident that what you advise is > effective, you will not feel the need to argue it.

You don’t see me arguing. I came here to identify, expose, discredit, and dispatch our lying, dog abusing Thugs. My methods are available for FREE in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual, the one the "experts" tell us to killfile because it proves our "experts" wrong… > Is name calling and flaming beneficial to the whole group ?

Certainly not. Once we rid our group of our lying dog abusing Thugs, there’ll be an excellent forum here. Until then, all we can offer is confusion, pain, and death to the dogs of people coming here looking for help for their dogs. Of course, some folks are so vested in their pain fear and force methods, they’re too embarrassed to admit their error and change their ways and will join with our dog abusers to defend their guilty consciences (or should that be singular, a single group violence consciousness?) > Whether you are a touch free trainer or jerk and pull trainer the > mission here is to post information for people to make decisions as to what > advice to follow NOT WHOSE advice to follow.

EXACTLY. That’s why I post my methods in a FREE manual for everyone to read and come to their own conclusions. And I offer unlimited additonal FREE help for anyone experiencing difficulty with my methods. That’s why our "experts" tell folks to killfile my information. They’re AFRAID to discuss their methods. Ask cindymooreon about her forced fetch, she’ll threaten to sue you for copyright infringement for posting her "methods" here. Same with dahl… That’s why I quote their methods and their denials of what they teach.. They think twenty liars all in sync will repress the truth. No problem, I’ve got forty years experience dealing with our dog abusers…I know our enemy. I’m in this for the long haul. > It is to discuss dog behavior not to argue.

Our "experts" will not discuss their methods honestly, there’s no room for discussion left. They need to be destroyed, like a rabid dog. I’ve taken the task of cornering and killing the incurable, diseased beast. Call me St. Jude, call me St. Frances, call me Lucifer perhaps. Call me anything you want, but figger it out… there’s never any justifiable reason to inflict pain or intimidate any animal to train IT. Hey, you want some fun? Just ask our dog lovers about Monty Robert’s methods… they’ll floor you with bullshit about his "personal" life and abusive methods. Curiously, they’re quite similar to the Wits’ End Family Leadership Exercise. I suggest you read my manual… >  It is always good to hear both sides.

Oh? You like hearing about beating choking shocking and hanging dogs? Seems that’s what so many folks are objecting to in my posts. I’m only quoting our "experts." Funny, that so many folks believe the quotes I provide are my own words and write me nasty private posts. When I correct them and set them straight, I NEVER HEAR from them again… and they won’t post thier objections to those vicious methods on our forum, because they realize this is bigger than they are. That’s fine by me, I don’t want or NEED their amature help. > I personally don’t believe in using physical methods since I trained > elephants and believe me you can’t FORCE an elephant to sit and you > don’t want to risk 10,000 lbs being mad at you.

Well, that’s why we’ve got opposable thumbs, but our ‘experts’ seem to have them well planted one in their mouth, and the other deep in their bums…and they all switch in sync, without missing a beat. You’ll never see a dirty thumb on a one of them, cause the dirt goes back inside their mouths as soon as the thumb is extracted from their filthy butts. > But dare I try to convert those of you that don’t believe in my > methods. No.  I will only offer advice based on my experience and

beliefs. I don’t expect you to take the kind of heat I have, but as stated, this is an unusual situation here. We don’t have a discussion group, we’ve got LIARS and dog abusers defending hurting dogs, that’s all we got here. Alphalpha and ron hardin are the only two honest posters, so it seems. I’m still questioning alphalpha’s honesty. We did have one other professional Thug who is also honest, but I don’t know why steve boyer isn’t posting here no moore.. perhaps he saw the writing on the wall, like lyingdogDUMMY and professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer and professora "chin chuck absolutely does not mean slap" gingold? Hey? You’re a trainer. What’s CHIN CHUCK mean? What’s a "heeling stick?" What’s "stick train" mean? Or "stick fetch?" Hmm? There’s a whole new vocabulary here on rpdb for you to learn before you can discuss training with us… like the definition of HURT. What’s hurt mean? Broken skin? Broken bone? Broken internal organs? BLOOD? Anything short of those conditons are NORMAL, and not to be considerd HURT. HURT is when the dog can’t stand or walk. Our methods don’t HURT NOBODY. Except for the DEAD DOGS, but they’re NOT HURT, so it’s back to redefining language to communicate clearly here on rpdb. Get used to a warp in reality if you’re gonna stick around, good buddy. > I will ask questions to hear other peoples thoughts on a situation.

Good LUCK! I enjoy seeing the foolishness these Thugs post and explaining the irrational thinking they use to arrive at their vicious conclusions. But then we got twenty liars telling people what I’m saying isn’t "proven" and they continue talking about hurting dogs as though it’s the right thing to do, quoting "experts" like koehler, defending his methods, denying they use his ‘ADVANCED’ methods, despite he cautions about following his methods EXACTLY because to fail to do so my incure DEATH… EVEN DESPITE the death toll they’ve incurred with their own kind right here. Take a look around and you’ll see an extraordinary amount of dogs suffering "epilepsy" from stress of training and crating…AND DEATH BY CHEDDAR. > I will always maintain an open mind as would any good dog trainer.

Well, let’s take a good look around and enjoy a few discussions of some of our "methods" and we’ll see exactly HOWE open your mind really is. Ask tara o about her Cheddar cheese method. Read my post "swiss cheese method" in response to lying frosty dahl’s discussion of shock collar training with one of my … read more »

Response:

 Hello Linda,

> First and foremost, this will be my last reply to Mr. Jerry Howe.

Reply? I’ve never addressed you. I’ve answered a couple of Thugs responding to your OP, but no, I’ve never responded to you, therefore there’s no way you are replying to me. You may be making a comment about some of my posts, but no, no reply to me. > Your response to my message is evidence that you have no idea who or > what you are replying to.

I checked all my replies to this thread, and it seem you are confused. >  My name is not Lynn and I am not a Koehler trainer

Right. lynn is lying "Oh YEAH! I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn k, a devout koehler and shock and pronged pinch spiked choke collar fan. > nor have I ever been.

EXACTLY. That’s why our "experts" jumped all over you. They thought you were sympathetic towards non violent trainers, they don’t like people here talking about NOT hurting dogs to train them. Just look at the response to the thread "they’re killing puppys". Nothing but bitching about spelling and gramma and posting style and complaints about cross posting.. > You seem to be quick to jump the gun and make accusations that are

unjust. You seemed to have misread the headers, and have been quick to jump the gun and accuse me of maligning you, because of my post to our well known, respected, loved, liar, lying "I LOVE KOHELR" lynn kosmakos, our preeminant koehler fancier, since dogman left and dahl is afraid to talk about it as is cindymooreon, despite she quotes his methods on her "faqs" page at k9web. Look up hole digging and alphalpha rolls, her ‘heaviest weapon in her dog training arsenal.’ > Now that I have experienced this first hand,

No, you’ve made an unfortunate although quite understandable error. You believed our liars who responded intentionally with more lies to cause you to believe that I’d attacked you unjustly. That’s O.K., our experts will do or say ANYTHING to defend themselves, that is, anything but the TRUTH. That’s what scares a liar the most. > I have totally lost any respect for you that I may have had.

No problem. I trust your confidence in me will quickly be restored and you’ll come to love and trust me in all your affairs, dogs, people, whatever field of study you’re interested in. I’m certain I’ve got some guidance for you, I do so much moore in my life than simply train dogs. Dog training has become a vehicle to other aspects of the human mind and it’s relationship to self, family, and our society as a species. > (I have never condoned the use of electronic training devices etc. )

I gathered that from your OP. That’ll make you very unpupular here. > I  am a touch free trainer and understand what it is you are trying to

do. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. It’d be remiss to ever second guess my motives… I’ll accept your apology, but trust me, it’s not necessary for my personal satisfaction. I know you’ll quickly set yourself straight, and the apology will be reflected in your kindly posts to me, as there is something stronger within us than our personal defense, that’s why we do not HURT animals to train them, isn’t it, Linda. > However, the way you go about it appears to really turn people off.

Imagine that? Could it be the subject matter we’re discussing? After all, choking and beating dogs and twisting their ears and shocking them isn’t exactly the most paltable thought when we think of handling and training our dogs, is it, Linda? No wonder people run like HEEL when they open some of my posts. I QUOTE our respected rpdb Gang Of Thugs members, and they deny it, and because the evidence I submit is so cruel, NOBODY BELIEVES ITS TRUE. Our experts who TEACH the quoted text DENY THEIR OWN WORDS published on their websites and archived forever. That’s the nature of a pathological liar, isn’t it??? > If you truly want to get your message across, why can’t you just post > clear-cut information?

Because this is a very complex group to understand. We’ve got a very long established CONSPIRACY to subvert non violent training methods on every level.  Because one competent trainer can be bashed, but five or ten cannot be all bashed together. That’s why they work in sync to disparrage every competent trainer till they no longer post here any longer. Look up the posts of Master_222, Canis55, Marilyn, Colette, Robert Crim, Parker, Aspiring Trainer, any non violent trainer ever posting here has met confrontation, ridicule and harrassment till they simply leave to find somewhere their information will be respected. I saw what had been going on here, and that’s HOWE COME I began posting here and proving our "experts" to be liars and dog abusers. Welcome to rpdb. > If you are a positive trainer, why do you use such negative communications > with people in this group?

Because my daddy told me "you’re judged by the company you keep," therefore there is no way I’ll rub elbows with liars and dog abusers, it goes against my grain. > Bad advice that could lead to the death of a dog is not just cause for > slamming people the way you do.

The "people" I slam are conspirators to repress non violent training methods and defend their alleged right to hurt and kill dogs. > You defeat your purpose.

No, it’s unfortunate but there are indeed collateral damages. I’m willing to accept the high price of war. It’s unfortunate but necessary in this instance. >  Do you really think you will get through to them this way?

Nope. Don’t intend to. Never did. I’ve been in this business for forty years, I know the Nature of this Beast. Like a rabid dog, there is no rehabilitation. In that instance, I’ll be the first to kill the dog. I came here to identify, expose, and discredit our lying, dog abusing Thugs. The price of that may be a few sympathizers with my cause, but they’d be too lightweight to use in this war anyway, so they’re simply considered collateral damages and that’s an unfortunate necessity… like twisting and pinching ears and toes and testicles and choking and shocking and beating and hanging dogs are unfortunate realites of the EXPERT DOG TRAINERS who knows HOWE to hurt dogs properly. That’s what our experts need you to believe, that they’re experts and they KNOW that proper infliction of pain and duress is NECESSARY. > Sadly there are people in this world that believe they have to be physical with > their dogs

Our group are predominantely koehler and shock and pronged spiked pinch choke collar fanciers. Not only do they believe hurting dogs is necessary, they ENJOY their work, and proudly teach it to others, and will do and say anything to make their methods acceptable to all. They LIE. This is a conspiracy, not a discussion forum. I discovered that, and took a different hammer to ring our bell. Welcome to Wits’ End Dog Training. Have you read your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual? If you’ve got any questions of if the method doesn’t appear to work precisely as I suggest it does, please just ask me for extra help and I’m at your service. > and there are those that are open minded to learn more positive > touch free type training.

Yes, I’ve got lots of satisfied students I’ve met here. Unfortunately, they do not stick around, they know what’s going down here on rpdb, and they don’t need it, and I don’t blame them. I tell them to take my manual and run like heel. There’s a couple who’ve stuck around for a while, but the harrassment from our force trainers makes their effort worthless as all their posts are counterd with lies,  as they’ve done to all the other competent trainers of the past. That’s why I’m here. > I just got rid of a well paying daycare customer yesterday because she > refused to stop using a pinch collar on her dog.

Good for you. I wouldn’t allow a pronged spiked pinch choke collar on my property for longer than the time it takes to remove it. > If I had argued with her, it would have only turned her off the idea. Instead, I > provided information that will hopefully make her ’see the light’.

Sounds like you didn’t succeed. Some folks just need to inflict pain because it makes them feel powerful, others because they’re convinced hurting dogs is necessary, and still others continue to inflict pain to PROTECT THEIR INVESTMENT in PAIN. Got it? Kinda like going into the hole to pay your bookie. > Turning people off of you as a person will turn them off of your advice thus > rendering your ‘mission’ ineffective.

That’s sometimes the case in warfare. > If you are such a positive trainer, it certainly doesn’t show in your > personality within this group.

I came here to KILL our "experts" not cure. I know better than to corner a rabid animal unless you can kill it. I know better than to not leave them an escape, because that will provoke them to fight. They’re up against the wall. I’m the wall. And I’m holding the match to light their last cigarette. > My apologies to the group for feeding the troll this one last time.

That’s why I leave them no choice but to fight me and die. I trust you’ll serve my purposes well, one way or the other. > Hello lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn,

Now I’ll go to your original post, and reply to you. Your friend, Jerry.

Response:

Hello Linda,

> The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior > than dog behavior issues.

You ain’t seen nuthin yet. We’ve got quite a lineup here. > It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding > through all the crap that is getting posted here.

Yes. We’ve got a conspiracy of koehler and shock and pronged spiked pinch collar "trainers" here. And of course we also got ed w of pet loss dot CON who told a couple of folks to kill their vicious dogs rather than to give them a chance at life at my HOWES with my family where they’ll never be hurt or choked or shocked again… > Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their > reply.

There’s a lot of history here… you want information or speculation? > Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT directed at > any one individual)

Training issues are all I’m concerned with. It’s imperative that we realize the kind of thinking our "experts" employ, before accepting their advice as valid. Let’s face it, you don’t ask a fisherman who’s not catching fish what’s he using for bait, unless you want to avoid using the same. It’s the same with dog training. We wouldn’t want to accept advice that’s had a history of killing dogs, would we? Our "experts" expect casualties in training. Jerry don’t. Jerry expects every dog to train the same as every other dog. Probably much as you expect every animal to train much the same as every other animal, if you’re using effective scientific methods, CORRECT? > Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else?

Sure. There’s no personal bashing in my posts, I talk about METHODS, not personalities and personal achievements and PALS who defend my methods. My arguments are not directed at personalites, only their methods. This is strictly professional. > If you disagree with a posting, keep it to yourself.

I show what’s wrong with the thinking employed in the posts I disagree with. > If you really disagree, would it not be more ‘professional’ to just post your > advice without slamming someone else’s ?

When excellent non violent advice is posted here, our twenty lying dog abusing Thugs tell the poster the non violent methods do not work and will jeaopardize their dog’s lives… like Fritz, Sampson, and Summer and many other DEAD DOGS we’ve entertained here. People who achieve success using my method are call liars. Ask Charles, Jerome, Marilyn, Canis55, Robert Crim, or Paul B… They’re all liars to be killfiled, if you ask our "experts." > You don’t need to argue who has the best methods.

Right. That’s evident when the methods are described and compared. The problem is, we cannot have DISCUSSIONS with LIARS. > If you believe yours is the best, than post the info and leave it up to the > individuals to decide.

Well yes, that would be nice, but our experts conspire to convince folks the non violent methods do not work. They’ll do and say anything to defend their alleged right to hurt and kill dogs to train them. That’s HOWE it’s been on rpdb till I noticed what’s up, and came in here armed with INFORMATION to kill these vicious lying dog abusing bastards using their own words. > If you are that confident that what you advise is > effective, you will not feel the need to argue it.

You don’t see me arguing. I came here to identify, expose, discredit, and dispatch our lying, dog abusing Thugs. My methods are available for FREE in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual, the one the "experts" tell us to killfile because it proves our "experts" wrong… > Is name calling and flaming beneficial to the whole group ?

Certainly not. Once we rid our group of our lying dog abusing Thugs, there’ll be an excellent forum here. Until then, all we can offer is confusion, pain, and death to the dogs of people coming here looking for help for their dogs. Of course, some folks are so vested in their pain fear and force methods, they’re too embarrassed to admit their error and change their ways and will join with our dog abusers to defend their guilty consciences (or should that be singular, a single group violence consciousness?) > Whether you are a touch free trainer or jerk and pull trainer the mission > here is to post information for people to make decisions as to what advice > to follow NOT WHOSE advice to follow.

EXACTLY. That’s why I post my methods in a FREE manual for everyone to read and come to their own conclusions. And I offer unlimited additonal FREE help for anyone experiencing difficulty with my methods. That’s why our "experts" tell folks to killfile my information. They’re AFRAID to discuss their methods. Ask cindymooreon about her forced fetch, she’ll threaten to sue you for copyright infringement for posting her "methods" here. Same with dahl… That’s why I quote their methods and their denials of what they teach.. They think twenty liars all in sync will repress the truth. No problem, I’ve got forty years experience dealing with our dog abusers…I know our enemy. I’m in this for the long haul. > It is to discuss dog behavior not to argue.

Our "experts" will not discuss their methods honestly, there’s no room for discussion left. They need to be destroyed, like a rabid dog. I’ve taken the task of cornering and killing the incurable, diseased beast. Call me St. Jude, call me St. Frances, call me Lucifer perhaps. Call me anything you want, but figger it out… there’s never any justifiable reason to inflict pain or intimidate any animal to train IT. Hey, you want some fun? Just ask our dog lovers about Monty Robert’s methods… they’ll floor you with bullshit about his "personal" life and abusive methods. Curiously, they’re quite similar to the Wits’ End Family Leadership Exercise. I suggest you read my manual… >  It is always good to hear both sides.

Oh? You like hearing about beating choking shocking and hanging dogs? Seems that’s what so many folks are objecting to in my posts. I’m only quoting our "experts." Funny, that so many folks believe the quotes I provide are my own words and write me nasty private posts. When I correct them and set them straight, I NEVER HEAR from them again… and they won’t post thier objections to those vicious methods on our forum, because they realize this is bigger than they are. That’s fine by me, I don’t want or NEED their amature help. > I personally don’t believe in using physical methods since I trained elephants > and believe me you can’t FORCE an elephant to sit and you don’t want to risk > 10,000 lbs being mad at you.

Well, that’s why we’ve got opposable thumbs, but our ‘experts’ seem to have them well planted one in their mouth, and the other deep in their bums…and they all switch in sync, without missing a beat. You’ll never see a dirty thumb on a one of them, cause the dirt goes back inside their mouths as soon as the thumb is extracted from their filthy butts. > But dare I try to convert those of you that don’t believe in my > methods. No.  I will only offer advice based on my experience and

beliefs. I don’t expect you to take the kind of heat I have, but as stated, this is an unusual situation here. We don’t have a discussion group, we’ve got LIARS and dog abusers defending hurting dogs, that’s all we got here. Alphalpha and ron hardin are the only two honest posters, so it seems. I’m still questioning alphalpha’s honesty. We did have one other professional Thug who is also honest, but I don’t know why steve boyer isn’t posting here no moore.. perhaps he saw the writing on the wall, like lyingdogDUMMY and professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer and professora "chin chuck absolutely does not mean slap" gingold? Hey? You’re a trainer. What’s CHIN CHUCK mean? What’s a "heeling stick?" What’s "stick train" mean? Or "stick fetch?" Hmm? There’s a whole new vocabulary here on rpdb for you to learn before you can discuss training with us… like the definition of HURT. What’s hurt mean? Broken skin? Broken bone? Broken internal organs? BLOOD? Anything short of those conditons are NORMAL, and not to be considerd HURT. HURT is when the dog can’t stand or walk. Our methods don’t HURT NOBODY. Except for the DEAD DOGS, but they’re NOT HURT, so it’s back to redefining language to communicate clearly here on rpdb. Get used to a warp in reality if you’re gonna stick around, good buddy. > I will ask questions to hear other peoples thoughts on a situation.

Good LUCK! I enjoy seeing the foolishness these Thugs post and explaining the irrational thinking they use to arrive at their vicious conclusions. But then we got twenty liars telling people what I’m saying isn’t "proven" and they continue talking about hurting dogs as though it’s the right thing to do, quoting "experts" like koehler, defending his methods, denying they use his ‘ADVANCED’ methods, despite he cautions about following his methods EXACTLY because to fail to do so my incure DEATH… EVEN DESPITE the death toll they’ve incurred with their own kind right here. Take a look around and you’ll see an extraordinary amount of dogs suffering "epilepsy" from stress of training and crating…AND DEATH BY CHEDDAR. > I will always maintain an open mind as would any good dog trainer.

Well, let’s take a good look around and enjoy a few discussions of some of our "methods" and we’ll see exactly HOWE open your mind really is. Ask tara o about her Cheddar cheese method. Read my post "swiss cheese method" in response to lying frosty dahl’s discussion of shock collar training with one of my students who was fortunate enough to be able to engage dahl. You’ll see about fifteen agredgious errors in her method which leads her to SHOCK IN ADVANCE of a command, to insure "honesty" from her expertly, esquisitely trained dogs, being shocked and beaten because … read more »

Response:

> Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else? > Wouldn’t that be a nice twist of events. A newsgroup > that was actually impartial to personalities and such > and just exchanged dog information and ideas. > Gwen

Sorry gwen honey, This is now a discussion group according to sally and psychoclown…not an informational exchange. If you want information I suggest you find somewhere that FACTS count… like at your shock collar seminar? Here, it’s spellin and appearances that count because everybody knows you got to SEE a dog to train IT. Perhaps that’s why the conspiracy to suppress non violent training methods? Using non violent methods, training becomes a cereberal affair, not a matter of HURTING the dog PRECISELY, hence DISCUSSION is no longer a matter of importance so much as LEARNING INFORMATION that obviates inflicting precise infliction of PAIN… Damn~ I just realized I’ve NEVER used the word "euthanize" in RL… Maybe our discussions will help me get used to it…thinkin of Summer, Sampson, Fritz, "interested in hearing" "1 step forward" "my golden retriever bit the ups guy" "my dog bit a kid" "dogs chasing horses". Hey? Here’s a thought. Maybe your pal ed w of petloss dot CON will do a cyber memorial for all the DEAD DOGS you and your pals have entertained with your DISCUSSIONS here? Jerry. > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy  foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Rober Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it.  This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior.  Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names.  Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are.   Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools.  Why do you act like fools?  I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.

I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing.  You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!

I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.

Response:

    Excellent ri[e]post[e]     Your touch has not only been not lost, but improved.   Yaaaaaay Terri!

Response:

> Can we not have a newsgroup where people post > information without bashing someone else?

Wouldn’t that be a nice twist of events. A newsgroup that was actually impartial to personalities and such and just exchanged dog information and ideas. Gwen

Response:

The funny thing about this group is that I am witnessing more human behavior than dog behavior issues. It really is a shame that one must waste so much time and energy weeding through all the crap that is getting posted here. Especially since some think they need to include the entire thread in their reply. Is is possible to keep your ‘opinions’ to yourself? (This is NOT directed at any one individual) Can we not have a newsgroup where people post information without bashing someone else? If you disagree with a posting, keep it to yourself. If you really disagree, would it not be more ‘professional’ to just post your advice without slamming someone else’s ?  You don’t need to argue who has the best methods. If you believe yours is the best, than post the info and leave it up to the individuals to decide. If you are that confident that what you advise is effective, you will not feel the need to argue it. Is name calling and flaming beneficial to the whole group ? Whether you are a touch free trainer or jerk and pull trainer the mission here is to post information for people to make decisions as to what advice to follow NOT WHOSE advice to follow.It is to discuss dog behavior not to argue.  It is always good to hear both sides. I personally don’t believe in using physical methods since I trained elephants and believe me you can’t FORCE an elephant to sit and you don’t want to risk 10,000 lbs being mad at you. But dare I try to convert those of you that don’t believe in my methods. No.  I will only offer advice based on my experience and beliefs. I will ask questions to hear other peoples thoughts on a situation. I will always maintain an open mind as would any good dog trainer.  How many of you are members of the APPDT ? The code of ethics clearing states that you are not to ‘bad mouth’ anyone. ‘Professional’ dog trainers behave in a professional manner.  Grow up people and stop wasting other people’s time. If you have something valuable to add, post it to the group otherwise keep it private.

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Larry, As I am beginning to actually use the methods in Jerry’s free training manual (and not simply flame), I can attest to the fact that positive training methods WORK.  There are a few other positive trainers (other than Jerry) who also post on here–Marilyn, Helle, Alison, and Patch (if I miss someone please forgive me as I am still relatively new here)–and as I am only beginning to use this method, I would advise you to try what they suggest. For what it’s worth– Lisa

> After looking at the flame war going on here and only getting suggestions > from one source (Jerry), am I to assume his is the recommended method? > Carver K-9 has certainly shown his disapproval to Jerry’s methods but has > offered me nothing in the way of  alternatives which is why I posted here in > the first place. > So, that said, may I suggest to Carver K-9 that you either "put up or shut > up" in this string? I still have a family dog who spent the night outside > because he pissed all over the house again yesterday. > Regards, > Larry

Here’s a couple quotes from our dog abusing lying Thug pals: "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"  amy  "Get A 30"- 40" Stick. CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand," As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished" "This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" "(stay on the ear until it does)" "(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn’t worth it)" "You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,  less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply" Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar,  even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" "but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"  You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb" "even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that" "Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance" dahl. "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.  "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is  something you twisted out of context, because you  are full of bizarro manure." "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine."  Here’s a couple words from my students:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the > literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make > the dog earn everything it gets."  I tried this once or twice, just by > taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible.  The pup > got scared and just wanted to stay away from me. > That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits’ End Dog > Training > manual — that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: make yourself > the center of your puppy’s world — his personal Lord Jesus.  Never > give him a reason to fear you or think you’re angry.  Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy.  She’ll do anything I want > her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent, > and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship > with me. > Charlie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.  Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days.  The last time, Peach didn’t > come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained.  A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence > and its collars.  If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog.  I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again.  The price was too high:-( > ~misty

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