Question:

  During the PBS video of the Iditarod, the narrator says: "’certain’ animal-rights groups have protested the callous treatment of animals during the Iditarod.  In response, organizers have a corps of thirty-seven volunteer veterinarians along the route checking the dogs."    Is this not a good result?  Do not purists serve a purpose?    Jerry is a pain in the ass; so was Jeremiah.

Response:

It was my understanding that there have ALWAYS been vet-check stations along the race.  Dogs were not allowed to continue if the vet had any doubt as to their soundness.   Sounds like the animal-rights wackos are trying to take credit for something that has been there all along!

Response:

>   During the PBS video of the Iditarod, the narrator says: "’certain’ > animal-rights groups have protested the callous treatment of animals > during the Iditarod.  In response, organizers have a corps of > thirty-seven volunteer veterinarians along the route checking the dogs." >    Is this not a good result?  Do not purists serve a purpose?

Whoa – that’s highly inaccurate.  There is absolutely NO cause and effect between the AR nuts and the required vet checkpoints. Or the required rest times.  Those have been in effect for a long time and were an internal measure, not something instituted in response to external pressure.  (A friend of mine is a vet for the race.) Lynn K.

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> Do not purists serve a purpose?

PeTA supports breed ban legislation.  Yea, there purists alright – PURE HYPOCRITES.  On the one hand they vandalize Mc Donald’s for the slaughter of cows, and on the other they support the slaughter of specific breeds of dogs. PeTA can go to hell. — Adrienne Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog" http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_sto… (In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max and Puppy)

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>A friend of mine is a vet for the race.) >Lynn K.

A judge for Icelandics  was here this past summer and "Bernie" did the Iditarod, and  a kinder nicer soul to animals you would never meet. These people that run the race are very much in touch with their dogs. Paulette~ A dogs life is too short…    Their only fault,really…

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I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, and ended up eating the feces of the other cat in the house in attempts to get it’s ‘natural’ food.  Needless to say, the kitten became very ill, and I believe the animals were removed from her ‘care’.  After hearing that story, I refuse to support such an ‘animal charity’.  I’m glad I heard that before I decided to send any money.  It’s horrifying. Spectre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do not purists serve a purpose? > PeTA supports breed ban legislation.  Yea, there purists alright – PURE > HYPOCRITES.  On the one hand they vandalize Mc Donald’s for the slaughter > of cows, and on the other they support the slaughter of specific breeds of > dogs. > PeTA can go to hell. > — > Adrienne > Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau > John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog" > http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_sto… > (In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max and Puppy)

Response:

PETA isn’t a "charity" in any sense of the word.  PETA is a very underhanded lobbying group and terrorist organization with a large budget for PR, and with the single goal of eliminating all contact between humans and animals, even if it means the death and extinction of the species involved. Denna Lasik >I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the >’abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any >cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, and ended up eating the >feces of the other cat in the house in attempts to get it’s ‘natural’ >food.  Needless to say, the kitten became very ill, and I believe the >animals were removed from her ‘care’.  After hearing that story, I >refuse to support such an ‘animal charity’.  I’m glad I heard that >before I decided to send any money.  It’s horrifying.

See pointless pics of my art and pets http://www.picantes.com/windwolf Also see the real pitbull http://www.picantes.com/pitbull ***** Remove references to flourescent pink pseudo-meat before replying

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>These people that run the race are very > much in touch with their dogs. >Paulette~

  Indeed, Paulette.  One shot is hard to forget.  One of a guy’s dogs had choked to death on a piece of food caught in it’s windpipe — which could happen anywhere.  He was sitting in the snow with tears freezing before they could run down his cheeks.

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I have a hard time with ANY extremist.  If peat or any other group has help even a little – I’m for it (taking the good with the bad?).  However the women that fed the cat a horrible diet "because" of peat is a women that is bummed Heaven’s Gate boarded the UFO without her.  ; ) Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the > ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any > cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, and ended up eating the > feces of the other cat in the house in attempts to get it’s ‘natural’ > food.  Needless to say, the kitten became very ill, and I believe the > animals were removed from her ‘care’.  After hearing that story, I > refuse to support such an ‘animal charity’.  I’m glad I heard that > before I decided to send any money.  It’s horrifying. > Spectre > > Do not purists serve a purpose? > PeTA supports breed ban legislation.  Yea, there purists alright – PURE > HYPOCRITES.  On the one hand they vandalize Mc Donald’s for the slaughter > of cows, and on the other they support the slaughter of specific breeds of > dogs. > PeTA can go to hell. > — > Adrienne > Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau > John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog" > http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_sto… > (In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max and Puppy)

Response:

Sorry – Spell Check problem.  Yep.  I hate that! PeTA – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a hard time with ANY extremist.  If peTA or any other group has help even a little – > I’m for it (taking the good with the bad?).  However the women that fed the cat a horrible > diet "because" of peTA is a women that is bummed Heaven’s Gate boarded the UFO without > her.  ; ) > Alison > I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the > ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any > cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, and ended up eating the > feces of the other cat in the house in attempts to get it’s ‘natural’ > food.  Needless to say, the kitten became very ill, and I believe the > animals were removed from her ‘care’.  After hearing that story, I > refuse to support such an ‘animal charity’.  I’m glad I heard that > before I decided to send any money.  It’s horrifying. > Spectre > > > Do not purists serve a purpose? > > PeTA supports breed ban legislation.  Yea, there purists alright – PURE > > HYPOCRITES.  On the one hand they vandalize Mc Donald’s for the slaughter > > of cows, and on the other they support the slaughter of specific breeds of > > dogs. > > PeTA can go to hell. > > — > > Adrienne > > Gremlin, Bruno, Lewis, Yoko, Freneau > > John Muir, "Stickeen: The Story of a Dog" > > http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/stickeen/the_sto… > > (In memory of Pepe, Pepper, Cinder, Rascal, Tucker, Max and Puppy)

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I would assume they would have to be very in much in touch with their dogs! If I was going to run a really long race thru arctic conditions, I sure would be in touch with my dogs! If their was the slightest doubt in my mind that ANY of my dogs wasn’t up to it, you’d better believe that I’d be the first one on the radio/cell phone/signal flare/whatever saying I was dropping out and to have some hot coffee and kibble  at the next stop! Jim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A friend of mine is a vet for the race.) >Lynn K. > A judge for Icelandics  was here this past summer and "Bernie" did the > Iditarod, and  a kinder nicer soul to animals you would never meet. > These people that run the race are very much in touch with their dogs. > Paulette~ > A dogs life is too short… >    Their only fault,really…

Response:

> I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the > ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any > cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables,

There are lots of AR idiots and there are lots of good reasons to not give PeTa the time of day, let alone money.  But I certainly don’t think PeTa can be held accountable for this idiot’s actions. Lynn K.

Response:

Hope you don’t mind, I removed JH’s name from the thread…. > I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the > ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any > cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, and ended up eating the > feces of the other cat in the house in attempts to get it’s ‘natural’ > food.  Needless to say, the kitten became very ill, and I believe the > animals were removed from her ‘care’.  After hearing that story, I > refuse to support such an ‘animal charity’.  I’m glad I heard that > before I decided to send any money.  It’s horrifying.

Sadly enough, I frequent another newsgroup and it’s not uncommon for some people STILL asking how to feed their cats vegetarian diets since THEY are vegans. It’s absolutely ridiculous to push human  diets upon our animals without considering their specific nutritional needs. That’s what happens when people jump on the band wagon sensationalism good cause wagon without thinking or doing any investigation beforehand. I wonder, would a meat eater insist that a rabbit eat only meat and beans and no veggies because that’s what THEY eat? I’ve never heard of such a thing to date. Terri Who has no respect for PeTa or AR loons.

Response:

> > I’ve heard a story of one woman belonging to PeTA who was so against the > ‘abuse’ of animals for food purposes, she refused to feed her kitten any > cat food.  The poor thing had to eat vegetables, > There are lots of AR idiots and there are lots of good reasons > to not give PeTa the time of day, let alone money.  But I certainly > don’t think PeTa can be held accountable for this idiot’s actions.

   Yah, but they *CAN* be held accountable for such things as going to dog shows and letting people’s dogs out of crates and so forth…  I’ve not seen this first-hand- but the folks on the agility list who have seen it more than once are people whose word I have no reason to doubt.  Reason *I* haven’t seen it is that all the incidents I know of occurred at AKC shows (generally breed shows, or combo events) and I don’t do AKC.   I’ve also heard of them doing things like shaving a dog’s head, or throwing paint on a dog’s fur in order to prevent it being shown… in one case, ACID was thrown into a dog’s crate, and the dog nearly blinded.   Or how about "freeing" laboratory animals to freeze, starve, and be run over by cars? (Which is not to say I approve of animal experimentation, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that domestic animals don’t fare well in the wild.)    If you actually READ their literature (not their fund-raising propaganda, but their actual statements of intent), their goal is to ELIMINATE ownership of pets- no cats, no dogs, no horses, etc… no animal-human interaction at all. Which leads me to believe that they are actually ANTI-animal, a danger to the welfare of animals, and a detriment to the *real* groups that are actually trying to HELP animals.

Response:

>    Yah, but they *CAN* be held accountable for such things as going to dog > shows and letting people’s dogs out of crates and so forth…  I’ve not seen > this first-hand-

I have personally treated a little girl injured when ALF grabbed at a pony ride at a county fair – I know just how dangerous they can be.  But I still don’t think we can blame all the stupidity of every nut on them. Lynn K.

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Well I wonder what he eats?  I recall a discussion between Alan Watts and a Buddhist monk who was against eating animals:  Alan says, don’t you think vegetables are alive too?  - as the monk is busy chopping and boiling the veg.  Yes, the monk whispers, but they don’t scream as loud. buglady take out the dog before replying – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Yup, a NJ professor of law at Rutgers was being interviewed on the >radio a few weeks ago- he is a PETA person, and actually teaches a >course on animal rights law.  He is trying to invent a veggie cat food >because he likes cats but does not think carnivorous animals should >eat other animals…..  Isn’t New Jersey lucky to have such a >wonderful, thoughtful, professor in the law school? NOT!

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > stitched with finest floss on pure irish linen: >Sadly enough, I frequent another newsgroup and >it’s not uncommon >for some people STILL asking how to feed their >cats vegetarian >diets since THEY are vegans. > Yup, a NJ professor of law at Rutgers was being interviewed on the > radio a few weeks ago- he is a PETA person, and actually teaches a > course on animal rights law.  He is trying to invent a veggie cat food > because he likes cats but does not think carnivorous animals should > eat other animals…..  

Holy cow. I guess we should try and change Mother Nature just because we change OUR diets? This is the problem I have with this type of AR thinking. It’s imposing our own beliefs upon what was intended the animals eat and were designed to eat to force our own viewpoints upon them. Isn’t New Jersey lucky to have such a > wonderful, thoughtful, professor in the law school? NOT!

Indeed NOT! Wonder what he proposes to do with species that are carrion eaters and hunters by nature? The Bald Eagle comes to mind. One endangered, now thriving…I cannot count the times I’ve come around a corner on a road and found a Bald Eagle or Golden Eagle feeding on the carcass of a dead roadside killed deer. It’s what they were MEANT to do. They are also MEANT to catch live prey of other species. The hawk, the owl, the wolf, the vulture….. Tunnel vision is such an horrible thing to overcome… Sigh Folks that think like him don’t consider how many species of animals would be extinct today if they were not allowed to eat what nature intended for them to eat. Terri

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> Well I wonder what he eats?  I recall a discussion between Alan Watts and a > Buddhist monk who was against eating animals:  Alan says, don’t you think > vegetables are alive too?  - as the monk is busy chopping and boiling the > veg.  Yes, the monk whispers, but they don’t scream as loud.

Snort… spew…!!!! BWHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Careful Buglady; I’ve know folks here voicing opinions against ALF and PeTa, and receiving hate mail and threats enough to make your hair curl, (or go straight, depending upon which type of hair you have). I myself_ have received hate mail from bestialitist threatening to hunt my dogs down, rape them, and then send me pictures in jail because I’m against the practice and would shoot or kill to protect my animals. These folks are REALLY NUTSNUTSNUTS! But then, I guess the email stands for itself in showing us what we are dealing with, eh? (Which is why I turn them in and take it really, really_ seriously in the REAL world when I receive nasty email from them). My local PD has extensive files on these folks. Believe it or not, ALF has a URL showing how to make a pipe bomb and lists a bunch of places around here as fur folks… I’ve been to some of the places listed.. They sell fireworks and some traps, but they have NO affiliation with folks who sell animals for fur! IOW, they neither hunt nor sell furs. The name of the place with the word, *Fur*, in it, seems to be enough to put on them ALF, on the target list. It’s kind of scary to go into a business and know that some nutcase could target this place for a bomb based on the fact that they have *Fur* in their business name! Imagine all the kids being maimed or killed. And they, ALF and PeTa, don’t give a crap. Terri

Response:

> I wonder, would a meat eater insist that a rabbit > eat only meat and beans > and no veggies because that’s what THEY eat? > I’ve never heard of such a thing to date.

   Terri, what a *great* point!!! I shall save it for the next time I argue with an AR nut, if you don’t mind. <G> Funny thing is, I’m 98% a vegetarian myself, but I can’t stand fanatics of ANY stripe….

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don’t know nuttin’ bout fur except the stuff stuck on my clothes, was talkin’ about the world from the viewpoint of the lowly veg <g> buglady take out the dog before replying – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Careful Buglady; I’ve know folks here voicing >opinions against ALF >and PeTa, and receiving hate mail and threats >enough to make your hair >curl, (or go straight, depending upon which type >of hair you have).      <>snip> >The name of the place with the word, *Fur*, in it, >seems to be enough >to put on them ALF, on the target list.

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> > I wonder, would a meat eater insist that a rabbit > eat only meat and beans > and no veggies because that’s what THEY eat? > I’ve never heard of such a thing to date. >    Terri, what a *great* point!!! I shall save it for the next time I argue > with an AR nut, if you don’t mind. <G> > Funny thing is, I’m 98% a vegetarian myself, but I can’t stand fanatics of > ANY stripe….

Here, here! I, too, am primarily "veggie" but I choose to live with carnivores (my crew of boys) and part of respecting nature (as much as *anyone* can in NYC <bg>) is respecting *their* needs over my wishes. It is not respect to try to force a dog or cat to follow *my* dietary choices simply because they are mine (the choices *and* the pets). People that do that are placing idealism over the needs of those they profess to love, IMO. Tara

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PETA, is anti-pet all the way around. They think we are being cruel and trying to force animals to our will. They think people who use dogs for rescue work are terribly inhumane to send dogs where they won’t go. They are against seeing eye dogs to and canines for independence. They are a real treat. HA! HA! HA!!!!! Wright’s Danes

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  ..because you’ll read a lot about it in print and TV news today.  A boring, stuffy meeting of representatives of the World Trade Organization?  Why would anyone pay attention to that?   Because thirty thousand "radicals" are battling Seattle police to abort the meeting.  They range from responsible citizens to maniacs who just enjoy rioting. The morning paper is filled with articles about how WTO agreements will affect our future.    Without the radicals, nobody would have noticed. The causes PETA has taken up would never have entered public awareness without their antics, and unless you have a vested interest in ignorance, you will approve their raising of awareness.

Response:

>   ..because you’ll read a lot about it in print and TV news today.  A > boring, stuffy meeting of representatives of the World Trade > Organization?  Why would anyone pay attention to that? >   Because thirty thousand "radicals" are battling Seattle police to > abort the meeting.  They range from responsible citizens to maniacs > who just enjoy rioting. > The morning paper is filled with articles about how WTO agreements > will affect our future. >    Without the radicals, nobody would have noticed.

Chris, I’m not sure I’m following your thread of logic. Are you saying that without the protest the WTO conference would not have gotten news coverage? I’m not sure that this is so, as I recall listening to an NPR news story just last week. Economic summits tend to have gotten news coverage in the past; I’m not sure why this would be different. But maybe stories about the conference will be pushed aside to cover the rioting. Know way to know for sure; we just have the one time line. > The causes PETA has taken up would never have entered public awareness > without their antics, and unless you have a vested interest in > ignorance, you will approve their raising of awareness.

I’m not sure that this is a valid arguement. As you probably know, I am very much against both willful ignorance and willful idiocy. There were people interested in, and making progress with, animal welfare long before PETA showed up. I suppose it’s possible that wackos serve a purpose to raise awareness. But I think it’s also possible that wackos cause people to take protest in general less seriously, which would be quite harmful. My personal opinion (though I haven’t seen much in the way of hard data to back this up) is that extremist wackos do more harm then good, if only because the image they create of the "nutty protester" makes people with serious concerns look foolish. You know, like if you mention that you are interested in animal welfare and someone responds "oh no, another animal rights wacko." And then they tune you out. Sort of the way law-suit crazy people have hurt the system; people tend to assume that people seeking redress through the court system are greedy, when they may genuinely be seeking justice. Not sure what your point is in all this, in terms of dog behavior. I understand that you seem to see value in PETA and people like Jerry Howe. I hope you understand that I have drawn different conclusions from the same data, and that I in no way have a vested interest in ignorance. Quite the opposite. I am interested in discovery of what is really true, and what is truly real. I believe that people who spout off a lot of rhetoric interfere with this sort of discovery. –Terri & Harlan (wackos do sometimes have entertainment value, however) — At least, I have integrity, and admission of my insanity, is proof of my credibility. –Jerry "Reality is Overrated" Howe 11/4/99 Before you buy.

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>I am interested in discovery of what is really true, >and what is truly real. I believe that people who spout off a >lot of rhetoric interfere with this sort of discovery.

My first "me too – I agree – right on" post. I’m glad I saved it for this one. –Matt

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