Question:

Thanks Tibbi you are always good for a snicker – like you do *anything* *ever* other than snipe….. Nancy

snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "yeah but you have to remember she lives for that stuff – heaven > forefend her dispensing kind helpful information…."

Response:

>"yeah but you have to remember she lives for that stuff – heaven >forefend her dispensing kind helpful information…."

Now there is an intelligent reply……stop drinking please.

Response:

Mark – Lynn gave the cites very nicely – all the same books Lynn posted about say what *I* say not what she does – that’s what the studies show – read the ENTIRE chapters on this instead of just the parts where the ‘periods’ are ‘defined’ and even you can see it. Of course I know reading for comprehension is not where you are at either….. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Lynn if you actually read the behavior information you will know that this >is NOT hard and fast litter to litter or dog to dog. > Ya know, it really *would* be nice to get a cite now and then, > when claims like this are made. > Or even just one. > Oh well. > — > Mark Shaw (and Maggie)   PGP public key at ftp.netcom.com:/pub/ms/mshaw > "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs > should relax and get used to the idea."                   -Robert A.

Heinlein

Response:

> >Lynn if you actually read the behavior information you will know that >this >is NOT hard and fast litter to litter or dog to dog. > Ya know, it really *would* be nice to get a cite now and then, > when claims like this are made. > Or even just one. > Oh well.

"yeah but you have to remember she lives for that stuff – heaven forefend her dispensing kind helpful information…."

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Lynn if you actually read the behavior information you will know that this >is NOT hard and fast litter to litter or dog to dog. >Ya know, it really *would* be nice to get a cite now and then, >when claims like this are made. >Or even just one. >Oh well. >– >Mark Shaw (and Maggie)   PGP public key at ftp.netcom.com:/pub/ms/mshaw >"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs >should relax and get used to the idea."                   -Robert A. Heinlein

If you could cite any of your claims it would be a miracle. Jerry;~}

Response:

>Lynn if you actually read the behavior information you will know that this >is NOT hard and fast litter to litter or dog to dog.

Ya know, it really *would* be nice to get a cite now and then, when claims like this are made. Or even just one. Oh well. — Mark Shaw (and Maggie)   PGP public key at ftp.netcom.com:/pub/ms/mshaw "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea."                   -Robert A. Heinlein

Response:

Excellent point. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Bill, Barbara:  chill out.   What matters is how you treat the puppy when > you get him or her, whether it is in the 8th, 9th, or 10th week. A dog > raised in accordance with ever new scientific theory of development can turn > out to be a great dog or a monster.  And, a puppy that is born in a lonely > cage in a puppy mill and spends the next three months in a glass enclosed > cage in a shopping mall pet store can turn out to be a wonderful dog (not > that I’m endorsing that stuff, or course).  I think how a dog turns out is > based on all the cumulative experiences of its life, and what matters most > is how you treat the dog when you get him or her.  So, get the damned dog > when you want and love it. > :      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion > : concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home. Both > Barbara > : and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara > : is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development > and > : has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed > : in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be > : placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th > : week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking.  . . . [blah blah > blah]

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Bill, Barbara:  chill out.   What matters is how you treat the puppy when >you get him or her, whether it is in the 8th, 9th, or 10th week.   A dog >raised in accordance with ever new scientific theory of development can turn >out to be a great dog or a monster.  And, a puppy that is born in a lonely >cage in a puppy mill and spends the next three months in a glass enclosed >cage in a shopping mall pet store can turn out to be a wonderful dog (not >that I’m endorsing that stuff, or course).  I think how a dog turns out is >based on all the cumulative experiences of its life, and what matters most >is how you treat the dog when you get him or her.  So, get the damned dog >when you want and love it. >:      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion >: concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both >Barbara >: and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara >: is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development >and >: has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed >: in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be >: placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th >: week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking.  . . . [blah blah >blah]

Hello Jedi Don’t try to think it really makes you look STUPID……Jerry;~}

Response:

Bill, Barbara:  chill out.   What matters is how you treat the puppy when you get him or her, whether it is in the 8th, 9th, or 10th week.   A dog raised in accordance with ever new scientific theory of development can turn out to be a great dog or a monster.  And, a puppy that is born in a lonely cage in a puppy mill and spends the next three months in a glass enclosed cage in a shopping mall pet store can turn out to be a wonderful dog (not that I’m endorsing that stuff, or course).  I think how a dog turns out is based on all the cumulative experiences of its life, and what matters most is how you treat the dog when you get him or her.  So, get the damned dog when you want and love it.

:      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion : concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both Barbara : and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara : is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development and : has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed : in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be : placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th : week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking.  . . . [blah blah blah]

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funny ALL the people you quoted don’t make a statement even close to what you have said – see I actually *read* the books on development and noticed what they said. The puppy development stages are simply convenient markers not hard and fast ages – all the books say so – but you don’t….. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > That only matters if you have a need to have multiple alphas in a > > litter – like in a litter of Bloodhounds all bound for law enforcement. > > That’s a very special case, and it shouldn’t be a concern for most > > other situations.  But the fact that it doesn’t apply to the vast > > majority of situations doesn’t make it any less valid for the few > > situations where it is important. > The fact that this is a pervasive fantasy doesn’t make it the truth in any > situation. > We both know the source material.  I believe the research and findings > are valid, both as done originally, and as duplicated.  You don’t. > I’m guessing that your disbelief is based on your personal observations, > just as my experience validates that research for me. > I’m afraid that your opinion statements are not convincing enough > for me to disregard the work of the Jackson Lab, Scott and Fuller, > Phaffenberger, Fox, Dehasse, and my own experiences with working > litters of multiple breeds > Lynn K.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Howdy Bill > One of the factors effecting when you remove a pup for >socialization,would be breed,in the case of wolves or >wolfdogs,anything after 6 weeks might be to late for >proper human socialization. >Another factor to consider is"what is the dogs job >going to be"? seeing eye dog,herd dog,shepperd,rescue, >or lazy old house pet,in the case of a herd dog,its >of little consequence if the dog doesnt get on with >people,a seeing eye dog on the other paw doesnt live >life as 28 lbs of nerves and attitude,and needs to >be calm and slow around people. > I met a woman in the park,she had a 8 or 10 week old >blacklab,that dog knew sit,stay,come,and retrieve!,her >story was that she had an infant and therfore a lot of >inbetween time,one of those people that you could feel >you pulse rate drop just by being near them,my point being >that there is no hard and fast rule for when you begin >socializing a puppy/dog… >David

Howdy Dummy You should keep your uninformed opinions to yourself Your Pal, Jerry; ~} Amy lyingfrosty Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears. I would never slap a dog. I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, it means slap. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog," ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.>>> "but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch>>> You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb;>>> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that>>> Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear.>>> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in>>>" AND HERE’S THE REST OF THE ROUNDUP: Diane Blackman, Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? Janet Boss, Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… Susan Fraser, susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. Avrama Gingold, Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. Lynn Kosmakos, Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. Bob Maida, What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n fagarty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. Cindy Tittle Moore, A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron? Here’s the deal… We get her to force fetch train three dogs in front of a childs playground, and I’ll train three protection dogs in the same site, and we’ll see who the children are disturbed by, and who the parents are going to call the cops on… And then I’ll show ups as expert witness for the prosecution, and we’ll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a criminal judge and jury… HOWE’S that for a FAIR TEST??? Denna Pace, Says she sees a lot of value in koehler… She’s got PLENTY of problems with her own dogs running away and being disobedient. Marily Rammell, what the hell is she doing in this lineup of Thugs? John Richardson, He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle. He’s as abusive and immature as they come. He’s a clone of dogman. The dogs he can’t hurt into being friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike yourself, he’s too stupid to be evil. He’s just doing what koehler taught him. Ludwig Smith, Another koehler trainer. He’s too cowardly to come out and say what he believes. He throws around lots of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help in koehler’s books. He’s got a link to cindymoron’s page on his sig file… and Terri Willis. The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS TO HURT DOGS. "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Howdy Bill  One of the factors effecting when you remove a pup for socialization,would be breed,in the case of wolves or wolfdogs,anything after 6 weeks might be to late for proper human socialization. Another factor to consider is"what is the dogs job going to be"? seeing eye dog,herd dog,shepperd,rescue, or lazy old house pet,in the case of a herd dog,its of little consequence if the dog doesnt get on with people,a seeing eye dog on the other paw doesnt live life as 28 lbs of nerves and attitude,and needs to be calm and slow around people.  I met a woman in the park,she had a 8 or 10 week old blacklab,that dog knew sit,stay,come,and retrieve!,her story was that she had an infant and therfore a lot of inbetween time,one of those people that you could feel you pulse rate drop just by being near them,my point being that there is no hard and fast rule for when you begin socializing a puppy/dog… David

Response:

> I don’t think it matters all that much to most people and for most > purposes.  I do believe, however, that it matters very much for a > very small group of people.  The most important argument to me for > placing pups by 8 weeks is that that is the week when the alpha pup > in the litter is determined.

Lynn if you actually read the behavior information you will know that this is NOT hard and fast litter to litter or dog to dog. >By separating them before that happens > you have the possibility of having multiple alphas in a single litter.

Once they are no longer together as a social unit this does not matter at all – the term ‘alpha in the litter’ can mean nothing unless of course you expect the litter in question to be working as a team. *Every* adult dog is alpha to a puppy – there is no escaping the role unless you isolate the pup (a poor choice IMO for a working dog). > That only matters if you have a need to have multiple alphas in a > litter – like in a litter of Bloodhounds all bound for law enforcement. > That’s a very special case, and it shouldn’t be a concern for most > other situations.  But the fact that it doesn’t apply to the vast > majority of situations doesn’t make it any less valid for the few > situations where it is important.

The fact that this is a pervasive fantasy doesn’t make it the truth in any situation. Nancy

Response:

> (about this statement) > only matters if you have a need to have > multiple alphas in a litter – like in a litter > of Bloodhounds all bound for law > enforcement. >   Why is that important?

Think about the wolf pack model where one of the alpha pair goes into new territory first to check it out before other pack members venture forward, and where non-alpha pack members continually look back to the alphas for approval before committing themselves to an action.  A mantracker has to have the confidence in his/her nose to work out front, without confirmation from anyone. In fact, many Bloodhounds refuse to work with anyone in front of or beside them. Lynn K.

Response:

> > That only matters if you have a need to have multiple alphas in a > litter – like in a litter of Bloodhounds all bound for law enforcement. > That’s a very special case, and it shouldn’t be a concern for most > other situations.  But the fact that it doesn’t apply to the vast > majority of situations doesn’t make it any less valid for the few > situations where it is important. > The fact that this is a pervasive fantasy doesn’t make it the truth in any > situation.

We both know the source material.  I believe the research and findings are valid, both as done originally, and as duplicated.  You don’t. I’m guessing that your disbelief is based on your personal observations, just as my experience validates that research for me. I’m afraid that your opinion statements are not convincing enough for me to disregard the work of the Jackson Lab, Scott and Fuller, Phaffenberger, Fox, Dehasse, and my own experiences with working litters of multiple breeds Lynn K.

Response:

> Opinions on this vary wildly, but IMO the real point of contention > is not the specific age but rather whether it matters all that much, > or if it’s consistent across all dogs, litters, breeds, and situations.

I don’t think it matters all that much to most people and for most purposes.  I do believe, however, that it matters very much for a very small group of people.  The most important argument to me for placing pups by 8 weeks is that that is the week when the alpha pup in the litter is determined.  By separating them before that happens you have the possibility of having multiple alphas in a single litter. That only matters if you have a need to have multiple alphas in a litter – like in a litter of Bloodhounds all bound for law enforcement. That’s a very special case, and it shouldn’t be a concern for most other situations.  But the fact that it doesn’t apply to the vast majority of situations doesn’t make it any less valid for the few situations where it is important. Lynn K.

Response:

  Lynn, everything you post about SAR is interesting. >you have the possibility of having > multiple alphas in a single litter. That > only matters if you have a need to have > multiple alphas in a litter – like in a litter > of Bloodhounds all bound for law > enforcement.

  Why is that important?

Response:

>  Lynn, everything you post about SAR is interesting. >you have the possibility of having > multiple alphas in a single litter. That > only matters if you have a need to have > multiple alphas in a litter – like in a litter > of Bloodhounds all bound for law > enforcement. >  Why is that important?

The alpha theory is pure bunk. Your Pal, Jerry; ~} "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… j;~) "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?: caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all. -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. -Jerry Howe-

Response:

[what's the best age to bring pup home?] Opinions on this vary wildly, but IMO the real point of contention is not the specific age but rather whether it matters all that much, or if it’s consistent across all dogs, litters, breeds, and situations. My own opinion is that anyone who puts an absolute calendar limit on the optimum age for removing a pup from a litter is ignoring indivi- dual situational factors.  Richard Wolters was one of these — as far as he was concerned, a gun dog had to come home at (as I recall) seven weeks, not a day sooner nor a day later, and in addition had to enter light training immediately.  Pfaugh! The little and big fear periods are important, to be sure.   But socialization with strange dogs and humans is a much more critical thing to worry about. I think the general rules of thumb (which vary from breed to breed) are a good starting point — nothing more — for deciding when to bring a pup home.  Your breeder may disagree, but then again s/he may have more experience with the line and the breed…. — Mark Shaw (and Maggie)   PGP public key at ftp.netcom.com:/pub/ms/mshaw "A dog is the only animal who has seen his god."          -Unknown

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Well I have now decided that the best age for my pups to go is 12 weeks. >The two best dogs I have that I got from other people (not bred myself) came >to me at 16 weeks(Breeze) and at 11 (Everest) weeks.  They are two of the >most out going and active dogs I know and they are both bonded to me >tightly.  My GSD came to me at 4 1/2 months old and she too is great, >social, gregarious, you name it. >My first collie Mauii, came to us at 9 weeks and she really would have >benefited from another two or three weeks of socialization with her >littermates and mom, but her basic temperament was just unbelievable and I >did take her everywhere with me which only helped to correct what could have >been a bad situation with her basic first few weeks of care (which were >without human handing due to some rather poor owners). >Anyway, If you are doing elementary training and socialization with your >pups, 12 weeks seems to be key with me. >Marla Belzowski >& the LegendHold Collie Clan >      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion > concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both >Barbara > and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara > is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development >and > has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed > in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be > placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th > week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking. The reason for this > position is that normally the puppy enters a Fear Impact Period (8 to 12 > wks) during the 8th week and that the tramua of leaving the litter may >have > a lasting impression and harm the puppy psychcologically. After the eight > week the impact is no as great. >      I am of the opinion that placing a puppy prior to 8 weeks has an > adverse affect on the development of the puppy because he/she is leaving >the > litter before the end of the Canine Socialization Period (5 to 8 wks). > During this period the puppy learns how to be a dog, he learns how to get > along with his littermates, his parents and other family dogs, she learns >to > guage her bite and his bark and they learn that they have a certain place >in > the pack. >       We both know that these time periods mentioned are not etched in >stone > and there is room for leeway, we also know that certain circumstances may > require a puppy to be placed sooner than you want. >       But as far as a general run of thumb goes,  we would like to know >what > your opinion is and the basis for it.  Who knows, you may become a part of > the paper that Barbara is writing. You may respond to the group or >directed > Bill Woznick > Apache Farms Australian Shepherds

That is pure stupidity. Puppies need not stay longer that 8 weeks with their littermates and mother and anyone who says differently is a

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Well I have now decided that the best age for my pups to go is 12 weeks. The two best dogs I have that I got from other people (not bred myself) came to me at 16 weeks(Breeze) and at 11 (Everest) weeks.  They are two of the most out going and active dogs I know and they are both bonded to me tightly.  My GSD came to me at 4 1/2 months old and she too is great, social, gregarious, you name it. My first collie Mauii, came to us at 9 weeks and she really would have benefited from another two or three weeks of socialization with her littermates and mom, but her basic temperament was just unbelievable and I did take her everywhere with me which only helped to correct what could have been a bad situation with her basic first few weeks of care (which were without human handing due to some rather poor owners). Anyway, If you are doing elementary training and socialization with your pups, 12 weeks seems to be key with me. Marla Belzowski & the LegendHold Collie Clan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion > concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both Barbara > and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara > is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development and > has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed > in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be > placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th > week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking. The reason for this > position is that normally the puppy enters a Fear Impact Period (8 to 12 > wks) during the 8th week and that the tramua of leaving the litter may have > a lasting impression and harm the puppy psychcologically. After the eight > week the impact is no as great. >      I am of the opinion that placing a puppy prior to 8 weeks has an > adverse affect on the development of the puppy because he/she is leaving the > litter before the end of the Canine Socialization Period (5 to 8 wks). > During this period the puppy learns how to be a dog, he learns how to get > along with his littermates, his parents and other family dogs, she learns to > guage her bite and his bark and they learn that they have a certain place in > the pack. >       We both know that these time periods mentioned are not etched in stone > and there is room for leeway, we also know that certain circumstances may > require a puppy to be placed sooner than you want. >       But as far as a general run of thumb goes,  we would like to know what > your opinion is and the basis for it.  Who knows, you may become a part of > the paper that Barbara is writing. You may respond to the group or directed > Bill Woznick > Apache Farms Australian Shepherds

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     My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both Barbara and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development and has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking. The reason for this position is that normally the puppy enters a Fear Impact Period (8 to 12 wks) during the 8th week and that the tramua of leaving the litter may have a lasting impression and harm the puppy psychcologically. After the eight week the impact is no as great.      I am of the opinion that placing a puppy prior to 8 weeks has an adverse affect on the development of the puppy because he/she is leaving the litter before the end of the Canine Socialization Period (5 to 8 wks). During this period the puppy learns how to be a dog, he learns how to get along with his littermates, his parents and other family dogs, she learns to guage her bite and his bark and they learn that they have a certain place in the pack.       We both know that these time periods mentioned are not etched in stone and there is room for leeway, we also know that certain circumstances may require a puppy to be placed sooner than you want.       But as far as a general run of thumb goes,  we would like to know what your opinion is and the basis for it.  Who knows, you may become a part of the paper that Barbara is writing. You may respond to the group or directed Bill Woznick Apache Farms Australian Shepherds

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>       We both know that these time periods mentioned are not etched in stone > and there is room for leeway, we also know that certain circumstances may > require a puppy to be placed sooner than you want. >       But as far as a general run of thumb goes,  we would like to know what > your opinion is and the basis for it.  Who knows, you may become a part of > the paper that Barbara is writing. You may respond to the group or directed

I am very familiar with the works you are referring to…. the Phaffenberger book spends lots of time on this topic. The age that my breed is usually placed is 12 weeks….. puppies need their siblings and their mothers far longer than is generally acknowledged. That being said, I acquired the best dog I ever owned at 3 DAYS. Lots of variables here….. can’t wait to hear all the opinions! — Toni www.irish-wolfhounds.com Click the "Update on Steve"

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>I am very familiar with the works you are referring to…. >the Phaffenberger book spends lots of time on this topic.

Rocky’s breeder must have read the same book.  Rocky came to me at 7.5 weeks; if I hadn’t been able to pick him up then (or a few days later), I would have had to wait to the 9th week. Original poster: Rocky’s an Australian Shepherd, too. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

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Personally I vote for the 9 weeks *if* the breeder is doing all the *other* things that pups that age need! Like individual sessions away from the litter for each pup. Handling the pups daily and different people doing the handling. Exposing the pups to all kinds of environments and situations and so on. Dog Behavior by Ian Dunbar  has a pretty decent overview and starts it off with the information about individual breeds and even pups within the same litter hitting the phases at different points! I would say it would behoove the breeder to know the breed and the litter very well when considering when to place each individual puppy! Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      My partner (Barbara) and I (Bill) are having a difference of opinion > concerning then a weaned puppy should be placed in a new home.  Both Barbara > and I are Obedience Trainers and breeders of Australian Shepherds. Barbara > is researching a paper on the Socialization Stages in Puppy Development and > has come across many reference’s that stated that a puppy should be placed > in a home during their 7th week and if that is not possible they should be > placed during their 9th week. You should not place a puppy during the 8th > week.  This is the position that Barbara is taking. The reason for this > position is that normally the puppy enters a Fear Impact Period (8 to 12 > wks) during the 8th week and that the tramua of leaving the litter may have > a lasting impression and harm the puppy psychcologically. After the eight > week the impact is no as great. >      I am of the opinion that placing a puppy prior to 8 weeks has an > adverse affect on the development of the puppy because he/she is leaving the > litter before the end of the Canine Socialization Period (5 to 8 wks). > During this period the puppy learns how to be a dog, he learns how to get > along with his littermates, his parents and other family dogs, she learns to > guage her bite and his bark and they learn that they have a certain place in > the pack. >       We both know that these time periods mentioned are not etched in stone > and there is room for leeway, we also know that certain circumstances may > require a puppy to be placed sooner than you want. >       But as far as a general run of thumb goes,  we would like to know what > your opinion is and the basis for it.  Who knows, you may become a part of > the paper that Barbara is writing. You may respond to the group or directed > Bill Woznick > Apache Farms Australian Shepherds

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