Dog Behavior Information » Dog Behavior

Dogs stuck during sex – why not humans?

admin — Mon, 21 May 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

It has to do with the way dogs ejaculate – the ‘tie’ makes sure the bitch gets pregnant http://www.lasvegas-dog.com/mating.html is just one of the many pages of web info out there but you know just look it up in your copy of The Dog Owner’s Home Veterinary Handbook….. Nancy

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

Response:

http://www.salon.com/sex/world/2001/05/22/stuck/index.html Yeah. This is not ‘the literature’ as generally understood.

Yeah. I know. . Mary MacTavish http://www.prado.com/~iris

Response:

heh heh – some of us know the truth about them librarians anyway – book people read all kinds of interesting stuff VBG Nancy (I worked in a library from age 13 for college money) Oh well, here goes: There once was a couple from Kelly Who were forced to walk belly to belly Because in their haste They used library paste Instead of petroleum jelly. –Lia (Madam Librarian), who might have to abandon all hopes of being thought highbrow and snobbish after that one. — “It is a strange fact of life on earth that a human being who reaches college age under the impression that “it’s” is the possessive form of “it” cannot be disabused of that belief. No amount of red ink will wash it out.” Louis Menand

Response:

http://www.salon.com/sex/world/2001/05/22/stuck/index.html . Mary MacTavish http://www.prado.com/~iris

Response:

http://www.salon.com/sex/world/2001/05/22/stuck/index.html

Yeah. This is not ‘the literature’ as generally understood. — ‘If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.’

Response:

Hello mr dogman,

Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths.

Probably. But I’m open-minded, too,

Yup. Your mind ought to be good as new, never been used. Geez guys. If you run a search vaginismus is a fancified way of saying “involuntary muscle spasm”. So it stands to reason that such can happen “pre”, it can happen “post”, regardless of the cause (of the spasm). Perhaps.

Perhaps. Perhaps we should stick to dogs sticking together? Never thought I’d be teaching sex ed on a dog behavior group. It wouldn’t take much of a spasm to prevent penetration.

I suppose that wood all depend, mr dogman. That’s when the chin cuff comes in handy. But it would take a whopper of a spasm to prevent the penis from withdrawing, considering the linear design of the male penis.

All men are not created equal, mr dogman. Given the very painful circumstances for the woman with vaginismus, any erection would surely be short-lived, which would assist in the withdrawal of the now flaccid penis.

That would be contrary to the physics of applying pressure. It would cause swelling. Again, anything is possible, I suppose, but I think hang ups are damn near impossible to achieve for humans.

Probably so, but not for the reasons you suggest. Has anyone suggested why dogs really do get stuck together and HOWE all that stuff works? If you find any mention of them in the literature, I’d be interested in seeing them.

Yeah. I think there’s a pic of the indonesian couple wrapped in a fire department blanket…that ought to tittilate you. But for dogs, the dog doesn’t become flaccid and withdraws, the bitch holds the dog in. It’s up to the bitch to release him, for the reason I mention above. The reason why the tie is necessary has nothing to do with “preventing” semen from escaping, like smoking a cigarette… That’s absurd. The tie occures so ejaculation may take place intermittently during the entire length of the tie. Dogman

Let’s hope this is the last time I got to teach you about sex, mr dogman. P.S. Surgeon General’s warning: Smoking isn’t good for the fetus. Your pal, Jerry “Mr. NICE Guy,” Howe. j;~}

Response:

[...] Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths. But I’m open-minded, too, so if you have any additional data, let’s see it. I’m trying to find something. If you do a keyword medline search around this topic, what you mostly get is a list of articles that could be summed up as “how we’re gonna help guys get it up, even if their hearts might explode”:} I think it’s pretty rare, but I remember seeing anecdotal reports of post-penetrative vaginismus causing inability to separate. Finding a journal article just might prove beyond me, tho. Geez guys. If you run a search vaginismus is a fancified way of saying “involuntary muscle spasm”. So it stands to reason that such can happen “pre”, it can happen “post”, regardless of the cause (of the spasm).

Perhaps. It wouldn’t take much of a spasm to prevent penetration. But it would take a whopper of a spasm to prevent the penis from withdrawing, considering the linear design of the male penis. Given the very painful circumstances for the woman with vaginismus, any erection would surely be short-lived, which would assist in the withdrawal of the now flaccid penis. Again, anything is possible, I suppose, but I think hang ups are damn near impossible to achieve for humans. If you find any mention of them in the literature, I’d be interested in seeing them. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

LOL!! Cute!! Oh well, here goes: There once was a couple from Kelly Who were forced to walk belly to belly Because in their haste They used library paste Instead of petroleum jelly. –Lia (Madam Librarian), who might have to abandon all hopes of being thought highbrow and snobbish after that one. — “It is a strange fact of life on earth that a human being who reaches college age under the impression that “it’s” is the possessive form of “it” cannot be disabused of that belief. No amount of red ink will wash it out.” Louis Menand

Response:

Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths. But I’m open-minded, too, so if you have any additional data, let’s see it. I’m trying to find something. If you do a keyword medline search around this topic, what you mostly get is a list of articles that could be summed up as “how we’re gonna help guys get it up, even if their hearts might explode”:} I think it’s pretty rare, but I remember seeing anecdotal reports of post-penetrative vaginismus causing inability to separate. Finding a journal article just might prove beyond me, tho.

Geez guys. If you run a search vaginismus is a fancified way of saying “involuntary muscle spasm”. So it stands to reason that such can happen “pre”, it can happen “post”, regardless of the cause (of the spasm). JMO J

Response:

Oh well, here goes: There once was a couple from Kelly Who were forced to walk belly to belly Because in their haste They used library paste Instead of petroleum jelly. –Lia (Madam Librarian), who might have to abandon all hopes of being thought highbrow and snobbish after that one. — “It is a strange fact of life on earth that a human being who reaches college age under the impression that “it’s” is the possessive form of “it” cannot be disabused of that belief. No amount of red ink will wash it out.” Louis Menand

Response:

Dogs prefer to wait to catch their humans at home, flagrante delicto. And create a brief sound distraction and look behind them to see who farted. That works better than throwing ice water on their dirty humans. j;~}

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken) I’d like to see dogs bite some of these nasty humans I see making whoopee on the street, to get revenge for all the people who have tried to part dogs doing it. dog Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken) They do, actually. It’s called vaginismus; different reason, same result. I don’t agree, but I’m no expert. Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths. But I’m open-minded, too, so if you have any additional data, let’s see it.

I’m trying to find something. If you do a keyword medline search around this topic, what you mostly get is a list of articles that could be summed up as “how we’re gonna help guys get it up, even if their hearts might explode”:} I think it’s pretty rare, but I remember seeing anecdotal reports of post-penetrative vaginismus causing inability to separate. Finding a journal article just might prove beyond me, tho.

Response:

Not necessary for the girl to clamp down on her partner like a vice to keep him in bed…

You’re right, especially if she makes good sandwiches.

Response:

[...] They do, actually. It’s called vaginismus; different reason, same result. I don’t agree, but I’m no expert. Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths. But I’m open-minded, too, so if you have any additional data, let’s see it. I’m trying to find something. If you do a keyword medline search around this topic, what you mostly get is a list of articles that could be summed up as “how we’re gonna help guys get it up, even if their hearts might explode”:}

HAHA. I’ll bet. I think it’s pretty rare, but I remember seeing anecdotal reports of post-penetrative vaginismus causing inability to separate. Finding a journal article just might prove beyond me, tho.

Well, if you turn up anything, let me know, eh? — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

Dogs “tie” to insure the female a good exposure to semen. Without a tie, the genetic material would tend to run out too quickly when the insemination was complete. Humans have other methods for prolonging the female’s exposure to semen. For one thing, the willingness to remain in a prone position after the fact. The happy couple is content to lay there and chat for half an hour. Not necessary for the girl to clamp down on her partner like a vice to keep him in bed…

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

I’d like to see dogs bite some of these nasty humans I see making whoopee on the street, to get revenge for all the people who have tried to part dogs doing it. dog Featuring the worlds only Anonymous Usenet Server

Response:

hee “Thighs of Steel” suddenly springs to mind…. Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

Response:

Cravens) said: Couple stuck ‘like Siamese twins’ during sex (Followups set to alt.folklore.urban, since that’s where it belongs.) There’s a more creative version at the Urban Legends Reference Pages: http://www.snopes.com/sex/juvenile/bear.htm

The “Ask Isadora” sex advice column in the San Francisco Bay Guardian *did* once have a letter/question about a boy with braces getting caught on his girlfriend’s “piercing-in-interesting place.” . Mary MacTavish http://www.prado.com/~iris

Response:

Couple stuck ‘like Siamese twins’ during sex

(Followups set to alt.folklore.urban, since that’s where it belongs.) There’s a more creative version at the Urban Legends Reference Pages: http://www.snopes.com/sex/juvenile/bear.htm — Karen J. Cravens

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

The male dog has a bulb type thing at the base of his penis. It engorges during sex to hold the dogs in a tie. It is dangerous to both dogs to try to break the tie manually. After the dog has done the deed, the swelling goes down and the male can pull out. Ann

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans?

You mean you don’t, Ken? Seriously, go here: “The glans penis is a bulb-like dilation at the base of the penis which fills with blood and holds the penis within the vagina during intercourse.” http://www.peteducation.com/repro/repro_system.htm — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken)

They do, actually. It’s called vaginismus; different reason, same result. By coincidence I remembered seeing this yesterday: http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,45091,00.html

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? You mean you don’t, Ken? Seriously, go here: “The glans penis is a bulb-like dilation at the base of the penis which fills with blood and holds the penis within the vagina during intercourse.” http://www.peteducation.com/repro/repro_system.htm — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

I mean — I’m not sure what to believe anymore! This poor bastard! Couple stuck ‘like Siamese twins’ during sex Two lovers having an affair got stuck together during sex and had to be rushed naked to hospital by ambulance. The couple could not pull apart after the 50-year-old woman became ‘abnormally excited.’ She had taken a sexual stimulant similar to Viagra. Her 60-year-old partner was unable to disengage. The couple panicked and had to call for help from neighbours in Ipoh, Malaysia. They were separated after being given an injection. Malaysia’s China Press newspaper reports, “Naked and still joined together at their private parts, the red-faced couple had to be carried to the ambulance like a pair of Siamese twins, according to scores of amused fellow villagers. The newspaper adds: “But their embarrassment is not over. They are now having to put up with stares and sniggers from their fellow villagers as news of their ‘adventure’ is spreading like brush fire.” http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_300269.html

Response:

Why do dogs become stuck during mating? Why not humans? (ken) They do, actually. It’s called vaginismus; different reason, same result.

I don’t agree, but I’m no expert. Vaginismus is a usually painful condition that prevents *penetration,* i.e., it doesn’t cause a couple to get “hung up.” I think tales of humans getting hung up are mostly myths. But I’m open-minded, too, so if you have any additional data, let’s see it. By coincidence I remembered seeing this yesterday: http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,45091,00.html

Yeah, well, monkey around too much with drugs and just about anything is possible. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

Distracting

admin — Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

EBay might be a dot com but who says all the dot com buyers are women? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >74476.news.dfncis.de>: >>Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash. >Who says all the buyers are dot com women? >eBay is a dot com… >–

Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

>EBay might be a dot com but who says all the dot com buyers are women?

Heck with that, who says all the *underwear* buyers are women. I’ll stop there. —

Response:

>74476.news.dfncis.de>: >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. >Wow. I own my own land, but I can’t afford to heat it. Except in >summer, when it gets solar heating. >Usually I just stick to heating the house part…

Smarty pants! Terri

Response:

74476.news.dfncis.de>: >Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash. >Who says all the buyers are dot com women?

eBay is a dot com… —

Response:

>Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash.

Who says all the buyers are dot com women? After all, these women have been smart enough to actually get a degree, unlike you. Uh, well lessee. I think your buyers are really dim, as you find the original underwear at thrift stores and garage sales, then spiffy them up with doo-dads that make them think_ they’re getting something new. I, nor am most_ of normal women, are going to buy used_ underwear in this day and age. Terri Not so dim.

Response:

74476.news.dfncis.de>: >Usually I just stick to heating the house part… >Smarty pants!

… now, *air conditioning* the land, that could have some appeal. Especially in the hot part of the summer (June through November). —

Response:

You go slave. Then think about the likelihood of applying any of the junk in a lucrative job when you graduate.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to > immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a > Supreme Court Case decision? Reading the newsgroup is much more interesting > (and easier to comprehend!). > I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! > Mali > >Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m > >supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t > >even found the topic yet!!! :O) > ROTFLOL… I’m having the exact same problem! But which do you > think I would rather do, talk about dogs or re-read a horribly > boring chapter on digital logic? Hmmm, tough choice . > Dianne

Response:

If my e-mail address is on your mailing list, I suggest taking it off. Now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, go ahead and buy giant frilly panties for yourself. In fact, I don’t >care > if they’re see-through or crotchless, but why in HELL would anyone want to >buy > your used nasty panties? > (Someone, please, hand me the BARF bag – and this time I’m not referring >to raw > diet!) >In fact, I didn’t bring up the issue of big panties. YOU are the one who >keeps fantasizing about them. I KNOW I’ve sold you a couple of pairs….your >e-mail is on my giant used crusty panty mailing list. > >Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash. > >> Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" > >even > >> come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same sentence. > >> Especially if they were "used." > >> (Shudder!) > >> >>Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have >to > >> >>immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a > >> >>Supreme Court Case decision? > >> >Yup. > >> >Boring! > >> > Reading the newsgroup is much more > >> >>interesting (and easier to comprehend!). > >> >>I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! > >> >Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! > >> >:) > >> >You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. > >> >(She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other > >> >than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her > >> >house). > >> >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to > >> >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. > >> >Rock on with school, Mali! > >> >If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, > >> >you will become_ an elame! > >> >How’s that_ for a threat?! > >> >WEG! > >> >Terri > Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

>Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" >even come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same >sentence. Especially if they were "used."

Uh, well, they are not_ my words. Talk to Lamey. The 45 year old renter and seller of used, sexy undies! Terri

Response:

snip >I think that adopting Solo may very well add a year to my graduate career, >for reasons both good and ill. Oh well, I’m finally funded, I guess all >I’m losing is a year of my life.

Just don’t_ give up, whatever you do! Go for that degree. You’ll never_ be sorry. I promise. Terri

Response:

> Yeah, go ahead and buy giant frilly panties for yourself. In fact, I don’t care > if they’re see-through or crotchless, but why in HELL would anyone want to buy > your used nasty panties? > (Someone, please, hand me the BARF bag – and this time I’m not referring to raw > diet!)

In fact, I didn’t bring up the issue of big panties. YOU are the one who keeps fantasizing about them. I KNOW I’ve sold you a couple of pairs….your e-mail is on my giant used crusty panty mailing list. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash. >> Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" >even >> come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same sentence. >> Especially if they were "used." >> (Shudder!) >> >>Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to >> >>immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a >> >>Supreme Court Case decision? >> >Yup. >> >Boring! >> > Reading the newsgroup is much more >> >>interesting (and easier to comprehend!). >> >>I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! >> >Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! >> >:) >> >You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. >> >(She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other >> >than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her >> >house). >> >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to >> >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. >> >Rock on with school, Mali! >> >If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, >> >you will become_ an elame! >> >How’s that_ for a threat?! >> >WEG! >> >Terri > Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

Yeah, go ahead and buy giant frilly panties for yourself. In fact, I don’t care if they’re see-through or crotchless, but why in HELL would anyone want to buy your used nasty panties? (Someone, please, hand me the BARF bag – and this time I’m not referring to raw diet!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash. > Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" >even > come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same sentence. > Especially if they were "used." > (Shudder!) > >>Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to > >>immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a > >>Supreme Court Case decision? > >Yup. > >Boring! > > Reading the newsgroup is much more > >>interesting (and easier to comprehend!). > >>I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! > >Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! > >:) > >You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. > >(She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other > >than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her > >house). > >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to > >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. > >Rock on with school, Mali! > >If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, > >you will become_ an elame! > >How’s that_ for a threat?! > >WEG! > >Terri

Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

> >Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m >supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t >even found the topic yet!!! :O) > ROTFLOL… I’m having the exact same problem! But which do you > think I would rather do, talk about dogs or re-read a horribly > boring chapter on digital logic? Hmmm, tough choice .

Oh my gosh, I have to ask this: Do you guys find that your house is NEVER cleaner than when it’s time for finals/final exam papers? *laugh* I swear, I’d be sitting there, studying away hard as can be, and the smallest speck of dirt or unorganized sheet of paper would distract me and I’d have to stop & clean/fix it! Always, thru almost 5 years of college, every finals time. It’s always easier to do something else than what you HAVE to do! *laughing* Shelly (who isn’t missing finals AT ALL!), Coda & Guiness…

Response:

74476.news.dfncis.de>: >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living.

Wow. I own my own land, but I can’t afford to heat it. Except in summer, when it gets solar heating. Usually I just stick to heating the house part… —

Response:

Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" even come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same sentence. Especially if they were "used." (Shudder!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to >immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a >Supreme Court Case decision? >Yup. >Boring! > Reading the newsgroup is much more >interesting (and easier to comprehend!). >I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! >Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! >:) >You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. >(She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other >than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her >house). >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. >Rock on with school, Mali! >If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, >you will become_ an elame! >How’s that_ for a threat?! >WEG! >Terri

Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

> :O( I’m employed, go to college and I’m still *barely* able pay my heat > bill! ’Course, everyone is having that problem right now around here. > And just ignore Elaine….she’s just trying to get a rise…obviously the > only one she can get, the troll.

Actually, I was being nice by suggesting you follow your dream. If you’d RATHER sweat bullets just to pay bills and never find your heart’s desire, well…..that’s not MY fault. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mali > >Drop out of school > Good advice, Elaine! We should *all* become unemployed Usenet junkies, > unable to afford heating for our houses, selling underwear on eBay to > support our ‘net habit. Whee! > —

Response:

I think we’re going to have energy blackouts before most people in college right now graduate.

Response:

Big gals will still be buying underwear when all the dot coms crash.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Uh. Terri? I’m not so sure the words "giant sized underwear" and "sexy" even > come close to belonging in the same book, let alone the same sentence. > Especially if they were "used." > (Shudder!) >>Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to >>immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a >>Supreme Court Case decision? >Yup. >Boring! > Reading the newsgroup is much more >>interesting (and easier to comprehend!). >>I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! >Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! >:) >You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. >(She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other >than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her >house). >I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to >sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. >Rock on with school, Mali! >If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, >you will become_ an elame! >How’s that_ for a threat?! >WEG! >Terri > Let the BIG DOGS out to e-mail me!

Response:

Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t even found the topic yet!!! :O) There just aren’t any Supreme Court cases about dogs!!! I guess I should be thankful for that though, right :O) Mali

Response:

Drop out of school and become an dog behaviorist. Your heart is with dogs. That’s a rare and valuable thing. Plus you won’t have to have a degree to do the work.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m > supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t > even found the topic yet!!! :O) > There just aren’t any Supreme Court cases about dogs!!! I guess I should be > thankful for that though, right :O) > Mali

Response:

>Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m >supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t >even found the topic yet!!! :O)

ROTFLOL… I’m having the exact same problem! But which do you think I would rather do, talk about dogs or re-read a horribly boring chapter on digital logic? Hmmm, tough choice . Dianne

Response:

Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a Supreme Court Case decision? Reading the newsgroup is much more interesting (and easier to comprehend!). I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff! Mali – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Guys, stop it! You’re writing things that are too interesting! I’m >supposed to be doing my paper for class…due the 23rd, 10 pages, haven’t >even found the topic yet!!! :O) > ROTFLOL… I’m having the exact same problem! But which do you > think I would rather do, talk about dogs or re-read a horribly > boring chapter on digital logic? Hmmm, tough choice . > Dianne

Response:

>Drop out of school

Good advice, Elaine! We should *all* become unemployed Usenet junkies, unable to afford heating for our houses, selling underwear on eBay to support our ‘net habit. Whee! —

Response:

:O( I’m employed, go to college and I’m still *barely* able pay my heat bill! ’Course, everyone is having that problem right now around here. And just ignore Elaine….she’s just trying to get a rise…obviously the only one she can get, the troll. Mali – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Drop out of school > Good advice, Elaine! We should *all* become unemployed Usenet junkies, > unable to afford heating for our houses, selling underwear on eBay to > support our ‘net habit. Whee! > —

Response:

>Well, I finally found a topic, but it isn’t about dogs. Now I have to >immerse myself in Ferguson v. Charleston. Ever try to read a >Supreme Court Case decision?

Yup. Boring! Reading the newsgroup is much more >interesting (and easier to comprehend!). >I’m off to slave away again. Good luck on your digital stuff!

Get your ass back there and read the boring stuff! You’ll be glad later that you didn’t listen to Elame. (She’s older than I, still rents and has nothing other than eBay to make a living and can’t even afford to heat her house). I OWN my own land, can afford to heat it, and don’t have to sell giant sized sexy underwear to make a living. Rock on with school, Mali! If you don’t get your butt back to work and studies, you will become_ an elame! How’s that_ for a threat?! WEG! Terri

Response:

non stop barking sheltie

admin — Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing

Response:

My parents have a sheltie who also barks non-stop. She stares out the window all day long, and barks at anything and everything that moves. she also barks like this when she is outside. I’ve been told that this is inherent in shelties, because of their herding instinct, but I don’t know if that’s true. My parents, who have floor to ceiling windows in their house, but some glazed plastic at the bottom of each window at "dog level" so the dog can’t see what’s going outside. This has quieted her down inside… good luck, and let me know if you come up with anything better….

: I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that : she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough : for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first : joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been : working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a : firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving : her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the : time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with : petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit : pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am : rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue : dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. : : Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing :

Response:

>I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything!

You have your work cut out for you. That’s ’cause she was bred to bark. >I have had her for about 7 months (long enough >for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first >joined the family she would settle down but she has not.

You essentially have to figure out what "triggers" her barking. Try here: And good luck! :>) — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman "I really dislike – thats (sic) too harsh but the best I can state it – the entire sporting group and cannot imagine being forced to live with one – not my types at all!" Nancy Holmes

Response:

BWWWAHAHAHHAAHAAA!!! You’re giving them cindymooreon’s site. She’s a SADIST. She’s been thrown out of two obedience clubs. The other site sells shock collars. That’s all you know, is HURT the dog, huh? You’re an anonymous, lying, dog abusing cowardly thug. You told Paul and Marty you’d NEED to HURT their dogs MOORE than they’d LIKE for just eating poo. You couldn’t outwit a puppy dog if his life depended on it. Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything! > You have your work cut out for you. > That’s ’cause she was bred to bark. > > > >I have had her for about 7 months (long enough >for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first >joined the family she would settle down but she has not. > You essentially have to figure out what "triggers" her barking. > Try here: > > And good luck! > :>) > — > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman > "I really dislike – thats (sic) too harsh but the best I can state it – the entire > sporting group and cannot imagine being forced to live with one – not my types at all!" Nancy Holmes

Response:

>I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything!

From what I’ve seen of shelties, barking is what they do. :} I had a lot of trouble getting my Eskie to stop barking. In fact, I NEVER got my Eskie to stop barking. I did get him to bark less, though. If he was outside in the yard barking, I’d just take him in. If he was looking out the window barking, I’d close the curtains. Trying to distract him from the barking stimulus was about the best I could do. Another thing that worked with him was to get on the floor with him, put my arms around him and cuddle him, and say, "Shhhh" very softly right in his face. He would eventually go from full-fledge barks to quiet "talking." I’m sure others here have better advice. :} Learn How to Can Spam http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml http://www.spamfree.org/ WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH – Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/ Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)

Response:

Hello Barb,

> I took in a rescue sheltie.

Our pal lyingdogDUMMY for got to congratulate you and welcome you to the group. I guess he didn’t want to stick around any longer than necessary. > In every way she is wonderfull except that > she barks at everything!

Like our pal lyingdogDUMMY says, you’ve identified the problem… > I have had her for about 7 months (long enough > for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when > she first joined the family she would settle down but she > has not.

There’s probably lots of reasons for that. I’ve got lots of suggestions that will fix her up fast. > I have been working with her on her barking for about one > month now by saying in a firm voice each time she barks > quiet

That’s giving her the wrong message. You should tell her she’s a good dog for barking. That’s her job, she’s a dog. Dogs bark because they’re SCARED. She’s telling you there’s something to be scared of. When you tell her NO, you’re telling her that her instincts are wrong. That tells her not to trust your judgement. That makes her more scared. > and when she settles down givving her a treat and > telling her good quiet, good girl.

After the initial thought of the behavior has left her mind and the behavior has begun, the treat cannot be associated with the behavior that has STOPPED. Her mind is on something entirely different. So, basically it’s your timing that’s off. You need to distract and praise as soon as you notice the thought of the behavior being formed. > About 2/3’s of the time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time > just the good quiet with petting. I think that the only thing > that she has learned is to sit pretty for the bisket.

Yeah. Furthermore, when you use a treat to reward a behavior, often the treat takes the dog’s mind too far from the behavior for the dog to be able to learn the behavior in context. In essence, you are limiting the dog’s scope and function by not challenging him to think and work for you. And treats often fail when something more desirable comes along. Treats appeal to the lowest level of consciousness, the gut. > Does anyone have any more suggestions.

The methods in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com will get you straightened out in a couple of days. Ask if you need help. > I am rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement > as she is a rescue dog

Oh, not to worry about that. Our pal lying"I LOVE KOEHLER,"lynn says to leave a long line on the dog and jerk and choke it to keep a new shelter dog quiet in the crate. I’m sure she’d approve of HURTING your dog. > and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment.

Oh. In that case, our pal lyingdogDUMMY and freaky frantik fraud die would recommend using the shock collar on her. That’s far more humane than beating and choking a shy dog. > Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am > doing.

Well I’m surprised lyingdogDUMMY didn’t just come out and tell you he’d NEED to hurt your dog MOORE than we’d like, as he did with Paul and Marty. Maybe that’s cause his lip is still healing from that nasty Carp hook Marty jigged him with. You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY handle and train your dog using non force, non confronatational, scientific and psychological methods, in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com Ask yourself "WHY DOESN’T JERRY HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM?" And then just answer "BECAUSE JERRY KNOWS HOWE TO TRAIN DOGS WITHOUT HURTING THEM." And THEN SAY OUT LOUD: "IGNORE JERRY, HE’S MEAN TO DOG ABUSERS." The Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual is provided compliments of the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too). Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}

Response:

mom’s Eskie "Miki" Barks more often then they would like too, but it hasn’t been too much of a annoyance. They also tell her to shush, and she will quit but has to "get the last word in" with a low volume woof. http://members.tripod.com/sacketttt/Miki.htm Miki’s page Steve

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything! > From what I’ve seen of shelties, barking is what they do. :} > I had a lot of trouble getting my Eskie to stop barking. In fact, I NEVER got > my Eskie to stop barking. I did get him to bark less, though. > If he was outside in the yard barking, I’d just take him in. If he was looking > out the window barking, I’d close the curtains. Trying to distract him from > the barking stimulus was about the best I could do. > Another thing that worked with him was to get on the floor with him, put my > arms around him and cuddle him, and say, "Shhhh" very softly right in his face. > He would eventually go from full-fledge barks to quiet "talking." > I’m sure others here have better advice. :} > Learn How to Can Spam > http://www.whew.com/Spammers/reportspam_stepbystep.shtml > http://www.spamfree.org/ > WHITE HAT OF THE MONTH – Nominate At: http://www.whitehat.com/whotm/ > Internet Secrets, 2nd Edition, by John Levine (All About Spam, p. 277)

Response:

>> I have been working with her on her barking for about one > month now by saying in a firm voice each time she barks > quiet >That’s giving her the wrong message. You should tell her she’s a good dog >for barking. That’s her job, she’s a dog. Dogs bark because they’re SCARED. >She’s telling you there’s something to be scared of. When you tell her NO, >you’re telling her that her instincts are wrong. That tells her not to trust >your judgement. That makes her more scared.

Showing HOWE stupid you really are as far as dog behavior goes aren’t you Jerry

Response:

Well this is negative but not violent IMO so it might be acceptable to you – try squirting her with a stream of water. This usually startles the dog enough to make it cease barking so you can praise it for doing as told – sequence is ‘quiet’ and if no response to the command a spritz of water followed by a ‘good quiet’. Also shelties were bred originally to run and herd all day. I strongly suspect they seldom get the level of exercise an active herding dog might need. I’d increase exercise, provide distracting things like seriously good chew toys and encourage chewing on them (tiring and keeping the mouth full and I’d be really tempted to attend training classes with this dog. The more mental stimulation the better. Finally if the issue is the dog must be quiet or the dog is gone find a sheltie or collie person in your area to discuss the concept of debarking with. This simply moves the dog’s voice down from piercing shriek to tolerable lower tone voice. Its something best done by an expert veterinarian who does lots of these surgeries and a collie or sheltie breed should be able to both advise you on the procedure and who the top person in your area is. Its a LAST choice IMO not a first choice but it beats rehoming (or in some cases killing) the dog. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that > she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough > for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first > joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been > working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a > firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving > her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the > time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with > petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit > pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am > rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue > dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. > Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing

Response:

> >I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything! > You have your work cut out for you. > That’s ’cause she was bred to bark.

We had a discussion about names on my agility club’s e-mail list last week. We discussed "corgi" meaning "dwarf dog" in Welsh, "Viszla" meaning "seek" or "hunt" in Turkish and Hungarian, and the origin of my dogs’ names. Two explanations were put forward for "Sheltie": 1. ""Sheltie" is apparently derived from an old gaelic word meaning irritating and incessant barking…" 2." "Sheltie" is an acronym for Small Hairy Eejit Loudly Twirling In Ellipses." Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin, CGC, AD, S-OAC, S-OJC, O-OGC, EJC, 1/2 EAC (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament and Wicked Cat Extraordinaire Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Landshark, NAC, O-NJC, NGC Robyn the Meezer-Brat, Inspector of Human Activity & Intrepid Door-Climber we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92 New (and funny) pics at: http://www.ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=949D9283B0C2A393

Response:

> Also shelties were bred originally to run and herd all day. I strongly > suspect they seldom get the level of exercise an active herding dog might > need. I’d increase exercise, provide distracting things like seriously good > chew toys and encourage chewing on them (tiring and keeping the mouth full > and I’d be really tempted to attend training classes with this dog. The > more mental stimulation the better.

Just as a point of note: Since I’m involved in agility, I know LOTS of Shelties who get all the exercise and mental stimulation they need. Doesn’t stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark their way around courses, never missing an obstacle. There are some Border Collies who do the same thing. (It’s less annoying in the Borders, though, because it’s not as shrill.) The more "up in drive" they are, the more they bark. According to my agility instructor, barking/not barking is genetic; similar to hounds baying on the trail- a certain state of arousal triggers the bark.

Response:

Hello nancy, > Well this is negative but not violent IMO so it might be > acceptable to you –

You ARE a bit of a hypocrite, aren’t you. > try squirting her with a stream of water.

That’s certainly going to reward the dog for he protectiveness and instill trust and confidence in his owner. > This usually startles the dog enough

Like that shock fence you rely on? I keep telling folks here they cannot trust the judgement and advice of "trainers" who NEED to HURT, CONFRONT, or PUNISH and CONFINE dogs to train them… BYE! j;~} to make it cease barking so you can praise it for doing as told – – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> sequence is ‘quiet’ and if no response to the command a spritz of water > followed by a ‘good quiet’. > Also shelties were bred originally to run and herd all day. I strongly > suspect they seldom get the level of exercise an active herding dog might > need. I’d increase exercise, provide distracting things like seriously good > chew toys and encourage chewing on them (tiring and keeping the mouth full > and I’d be really tempted to attend training classes with this dog. The > more mental stimulation the better. > Finally if the issue is the dog must be quiet or the dog is gone find a > sheltie or collie person in your area to discuss the concept of debarking > with. This simply moves the dog’s voice down from piercing shriek to > tolerable lower tone voice. Its something best done by an expert > veterinarian who does lots of these surgeries and a collie or sheltie breed > should be able to both advise you on the procedure and who the top person in > your area is. Its a LAST choice IMO not a first choice but it beats rehoming > (or in some cases killing) the dog. > Nancy > I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that > she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough > for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first > joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been > working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a > firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving > her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the > time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with > petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit > pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am > rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue > dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. > Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing

Response:

BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Also shelties were bred originally to run and herd all day. I strongly > suspect they seldom get the level of exercise an active herding dog might > need. I’d increase exercise, provide distracting things like seriously > good > chew toys and encourage chewing on them (tiring and keeping the mouth full > and I’d be really tempted to attend training classes with this dog. > The > more mental stimulation the better. > Just as a point of note: Since I’m involved in agility, I know LOTS of > Shelties who get all the exercise and mental stimulation they need. Doesn’t > stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark their way > around courses, never missing an obstacle. > There are some Border Collies who do the same thing. (It’s less > annoying in the Borders, though, because it’s not as shrill.) The more > "up in drive" they are, the more they bark. According to my agility > instructor, barking/not barking is genetic; similar to hounds baying on the > trail- a certain state of arousal triggers the bark.

Response:

I too suspect its in the genes – weird IMO in sheep herders as sheep are so spooky. You never know though in a pet dog – might be lack of stimulation, exercise, socialization etc that make that individual dog a yapper. Worth a shot. IME most of the shelties and collies end up debarked when anyone has them in more than the pet type numbers. Similarly so do fox terriers and some other highly yappy breeds. Not my first choice but certainly beats killing the dog. Nancy wondering if the yappers have faster seratonin responses to barking making the yap more self rewarding faster than in other breeds….

Response:

>Doesn’t >stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark >their way around courses, never missing an obstacle.

In some agility organizations (AAC for one), the judge can fault the dog for excessive barking. Not fair to some breeds IMO. — –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

> In some agility organizations (AAC for one), the judge can fault > the dog for excessive barking. Not fair to some breeds IMO.

Definitely not! I have heard more than one story of handlers extinguishing the dog’s joy in agility along with extinguishing the bark; and I know many really *good* dogs who "talk" on course. Case in point: Debi Hutchinson’s Gage, who has just completed a Triple Triple Superior in NADAC- only ONE other dog has ever done so.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that > >she barks at everything! > You have your work cut out for you. > That’s ’cause she was bred to bark. [...] >1. ""Sheltie" is apparently derived from an old gaelic word meaning > irritating and incessant barking…" >2." "Sheltie" is an acronym for Small Hairy Eejit Loudly Twirling In >Ellipses."

HAHA! From what I’ve observed, Sarah, both are pretty much correct. :>) — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman "I really dislike – thats (sic) too harsh but the best I can state it – the entire sporting group and cannot imagine being forced to live with one – not my types at all!" Nancy Holmes

Response:

>Doesn’t >stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark >their way around courses, never missing an obstacle. > In some agility organizations (AAC for one), the judge can fault > the dog for excessive barking. Not fair to some breeds IMO.

At the one agility trial I’ve been to, the most competent dog was a BC who barkbarkbarked his way through the course. The only time he stopped barking was on/in/over the obstacle. He also spun a 360, barking, between every obstacle. That dog knew how to have a good time. Cate

Response:

the sheltie e-mail list is a great resource. my meg’s a rescue sheltie, too, and the list has been tremendously helpful in breed specific issues. http://sheltiehomepage.mcf.com/ is the home page for the list. http://lists.mcf.com/sheltielistpage.nclk is the page for subscribing. –nb http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp/PF=9EA49F8D7E92 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough >for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first >joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been >working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a >firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving >her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the >time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with >petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit >pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am >rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue >dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. >Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing

Response:

> We had a discussion about names on my agility club’s e-mail list last > week. We discussed "corgi" meaning "dwarf dog" in Welsh, "Viszla" meaning > "seek" or "hunt" in Turkish and Hungarian, and the origin of my dogs’ names. > Two explanations were put forward for "Sheltie": > 1. ""Sheltie" is apparently derived from an old gaelic word meaning > irritating and incessant barking…" > 2." "Sheltie" is an acronym for Small Hairy Eejit Loudly Twirling In > Ellipses."

EVIL! Funny as hell, but clearly EVIL!! Christy with a big hairy quiet eejit who only twirls on command

Response:

Tsk, tsk, tsk. It’s not fair to INCOMPETENT TRAINERS.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Doesn’t >stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark >their way around courses, never missing an obstacle. > In some agility organizations (AAC for one), the judge can fault > the dog for excessive barking. Not fair to some breeds IMO. > — > –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

Is that why you would jerk, choke, shock, and HANG them ot quiet them?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that >> >she barks at everything! >> You have your work cut out for you. >> That’s ’cause she was bred to bark. > [...] >1. ""Sheltie" is apparently derived from an old gaelic word meaning > irritating and incessant barking…" >2." "Sheltie" is an acronym for Small Hairy Eejit Loudly Twirling In >Ellipses." > HAHA! > From what I’ve observed, Sarah, both are pretty much correct. > :>) > — > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman > "I really dislike – thats (sic) too harsh but the best I can state it – the entire > sporting group and cannot imagine being forced to live with one – not my types at all!" Nancy Holmes

Response:

That’s telling us all about the competency of our "expert" breeders, huh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I too suspect its in the genes – weird IMO in sheep herders as sheep are so > spooky. You never know though in a pet dog – might be lack of stimulation, > exercise, socialization etc that make that individual dog a yapper. Worth a > shot. > IME most of the shelties and collies end up debarked when anyone has them in > more than the pet type numbers. Similarly so do fox terriers and some other > highly yappy breeds. > Not my first choice but certainly beats killing the dog. > Nancy > wondering if the yappers have faster seratonin responses to barking making > the yap more self rewarding faster than in other breeds…. > > Also shelties were bred originally to run and herd all day. I strongly > > suspect they seldom get the level of exercise an active herding dog > might > > need. I’d increase exercise, provide distracting things like seriously > good > > chew toys and encourage chewing on them (tiring and keeping the mouth > full > > and I’d be really tempted to attend training classes with this dog. > The > > more mental stimulation the better. > Just as a point of note: Since I’m involved in agility, I know LOTS of > Shelties who get all the exercise and mental stimulation they need. > Doesn’t > stop them from barking- in fact, I know many who barkbarkbark their way > around courses, never missing an obstacle. > There are some Border Collies who do the same thing. (It’s less > annoying in the Borders, though, because it’s not as shrill.) The more > "up in drive" they are, the more they bark. According to my agility > instructor, barking/not barking is genetic; similar to hounds baying on > the > trail- a certain state of arousal triggers the bark.

Response:

BWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! You’re an IDIOT, melanie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The remedy I read in Karen Pryor, that I thought was pretty ingenious, is > to train the dog to bark on cue, and then never give the cue. As neither > of the dogs I’ve owned have been barkers, I don’t know how effective this is. > Solo would distress bark (more like cry) to himself when I first got him, > and after nothing else worked, I resorted to the squirt gun. That did > work, but he finds squirted water to be VERY aversive. > — > Melanie Lee Chang | Repetition is the death > Departments of Anthropology and Biology | of art. > University of Pennsylvania |

Response:

thanks for the idea, but rather like your parents home short of crating her allday I don’t think that i can remove all of the stimuals in her envrioment – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My parents have a sheltie who also barks non-stop. She stares out the > window all day long, and barks at anything and everything that moves. she > also barks like this when she is outside. > I’ve been told that this is inherent in shelties, because of their herding > instinct, but I don’t know if that’s true. > My parents, who have floor to ceiling windows in their house, but some > glazed plastic at the bottom of each window at "dog level" so the dog can’t > see what’s going outside. This has quieted her down inside… > good luck, and let me know if you come up with anything better…. > : I took in a rescue sheltie. In every way she is wonderfull except that > : she barks at everything! I have had her for about 7 months (long enough > : for her to relax in her new enviroment) I hoped that when she first > : joined the family she would settle down but she has not. I have been > : working with her on her barking for about one month now by saying in a > : firm voice each time she barks quiet and when she settles down givving > : her a treat and telling her good quiet, good girl. About 2/3’s of the > : time she gets the treat 1/3 of the time just the good quiet with > : petting. I think that the only thing that she has learned is to sit > : pretty for the bisket. Does anyone have any more suggestions. I am > : rather against any form of negiative re-enforcement as she is a rescue > : dog and was removed from a physicaly damaging enviroment. > : > : Thanks for any suggestions or corrections on what I am doing > :

Response:

Teeth chattering – possible problem?

admin — Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I have a Cocker Spaniel that is 15 months old and I have been noticing a chattering that has been worrying me. Whenever he bites down on something hard for a short duration and then lets go his teeth chatter. It happens mostly when we are playing tug of war or fetch and he lets go of the toy. Is this a sign of something that I should be worried about, or is this a natural reaction for a dog that’s been clamped down on something in his mouth? — Kendal

Response:

Teeth chattering ‘can’ be a sign of fever. How are his teeth?Have you tried taking his temp.?

Response:

This has been an ongoing thing for months. I just never thought much about it until last night when it was really noticeable. He has been to the vet many times and gotten a clean bill of health (as far as temperature, weight, etc. are concerned – I never did ask about the chattering).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Teeth chattering ‘can’ be a sign of fever. How are his teeth?Have you tried > taking his temp.?

Response:

> This has been an ongoing thing for months. I just never thought much about > it until last night when it was really noticeable. He has been to the vet > many times and gotten a clean bill of health (as far as temperature, weight, > etc. are concerned – I never did ask about the chattering).

When my dog has been tugging on something and lets go, his jaws go through what could be described as a chattering motion–for about 1-2 seconds. He seems to just be rearranging his lips so he can close his mouth. (Stop laughing.) Seriously, my dog does this too, and it’s No Big Deal. Is your dog’s chattering similar? Cate

Response:

It usually lasts a little longer, around 10 to 15 seconds. The tip of his tongue sticks out and his whole head vibrates a little bit with the chatter. I can see muscles on the top of his head moving as his teeth chatter too. It’s very similar to a person’s teeth chattering when they are very cold or nervous. I suppose that I shouldn’t worry too much about it. It doesn’t seem to affect him much and it goes away after the 10 to 15 seconds while he is calming down. I just want to be sure that it’s nothing with his health. — Kendal

| > This has been an ongoing thing for months. I just never thought much about | > it until last night when it was really noticeable. He has been to the vet | > many times and gotten a clean bill of health (as far as temperature, | weight, | > etc. are concerned – I never did ask about the chattering). | > | | When my dog has been tugging on something and lets go, his jaws go through | what could be described as a chattering motion–for about 1-2 seconds. He | seems to just be rearranging his lips so he can close his mouth. (Stop | laughing.) Seriously, my dog does this too, and it’s No Big Deal. Is your | dog’s chattering similar? | | Cate | | |

Response:

does it happen in ‘warm’ temperatures? In other words, have you ruled out the obvious? (Is he chattering because he is COLD?)

Response:

> It usually lasts a little longer, around 10 to 15 seconds. The tip of his > tongue sticks out and his whole head vibrates a little bit with the chatter. > I can see muscles on the top of his head moving as his teeth chatter too. > It’s very similar to a person’s teeth chattering when they are very cold or > nervous. I suppose that I shouldn’t worry too much about it. It doesn’t seem > to affect him much and it goes away after the 10 to 15 seconds while he is > calming down. I just want to be sure that it’s nothing with his health. > — > Kendal

Sounds like a question for your vet. Just call up, describe the problem, and ask if a visit is warranted. Vets’ offices are used to getting such calls, and you should feel comfortable calling them any time with such questions. It’s better to answer such questions now than deal with a potentially serious problem down the road that could’ve been attended to earlier on. Good luck. Cate

Response:

>> I can see muscles on the top of his head moving as his teeth chatter too. > It’s very similar to a person’s teeth chattering when they are very cold >or > nervous.

Teeth chattering often occurs in play, as an offensive or defensive threat and possibly in conflict or distress situations. My Dane does this when he’s excited or nervous. He’s prefectly healthy Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html "AKC papers do not mean you are getting a quality dog. They are merely a birth certificate. Even puppy mill pet shop pups have AKC papers" – Bob Maida

Response:

>Sounds like a question for your vet. Just call up, describe the problem, and >ask if a visit is warranted. Vets’ offices are used to getting such calls, >and you should feel comfortable calling them any time with such questions. >It’s better to answer such questions now than deal with a potentially >serious problem down the road that could’ve been attended to earlier on.

Look, I am all for taking dogs to the vet when they are sick. But people who are dog owners should learn a teeny tiny bit about dog behavior as well. One more time: when dogs play they can get really revved up. If this happens,their teeth will chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!!!! When male dogs smell pee, they will often have chattery teeth and even drool. THIS IS NORMAL!!!!! If the dog mentioned in the first post is playing tug, and the tug object is not in his mouth, and he’s really into tugging, odds are his teeth will chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!! None of this is worth bothering a vet over, or dragging the dog in for an office visit. If more people pushed back from their computers, turned off their modems, and WATCHED what their dogs did, they could learn an awful lot about the health and well being of their dogs. And, they’d save money at the vet and worry about their dogs. So, in conclusion: this dog is not sick, is not suffering from anything, he’s PLAYING!! Am I the only one here who watches my dogs play and who plays with them? Why is everyone trying to scare this poor Cocker owner? I think it’s wonderful to see a Cocker with so much interest in playing. I bet it would be a fun dog to take out and try agility with. Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sounds like a question for your vet. Just call up, describe the problem, and >ask if a visit is warranted. Vets’ offices are used to getting such calls, >and you should feel comfortable calling them any time with such questions. >It’s better to answer such questions now than deal with a potentially >serious problem down the road that could’ve been attended to earlier on. > Look, I am all for taking dogs to the vet when they are sick. But people > who are dog owners should learn a teeny tiny bit about dog behavior as > well.

[...] With the preponderance of numbskulled posts on Usenet saying things like ‘My dog’s leg broken in pieces. Is there anything I can do?’ I hardly think it can hurt to suggest someone with even a routine health *or* behavior question call their vet. If the OP’s vet wants to chide her for calling with such a question, then leave it to her vet to set the standard for what constitutes a reasonable issue to ‘bother’ him/her with. It’s a phone call, for pete’s sake, not a subpoena. Cate

Response:

If you are so ’smart’ why didn’t you say "it has been ‘my’ experience with ‘my’ dogs that sometimes in the middle of play their teeth chatter." You canNOT say this dog is NOT sick because it has been MY experience that TWO of MY dogs had teeth chattering and in both cases it turned out to be sign of infection. (one had an impacted tooth and the other a kidney infection). I agree nobody knows your pet more than YOU do but that doesn’t make you a VET. *and therefore the following quote (yours) pretty much proves WHY I know you are NOT a vet!! I’m sure you meant well, but there simply was NO way for you to draw the conclusion your not only drew but then passed along and called it "Advice"! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->So, in conclusion: this dog is not sick, is not suffering from anything, >he’s PLAYING!! Am I the only one here who watches my dogs play and who >plays with them? Why is everyone trying to scare this poor Cocker owner? I >think it’s wonderful to see a Cocker with so much interest in playing. I >bet it would be a fun dog to take out and try agility with. >Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy

Response:

>With the preponderance of numbskulled posts on Usenet saying things like ‘My >dog’s leg broken in pieces. Is there anything I can do?’ I hardly think it >can hurt to suggest someone with even a routine health *or* behavior >question call their vet. If the OP’s vet wants to chide her for calling with >such a question, then leave it to her vet to set the standard for what >constitutes a reasonable issue to ‘bother’ him/her with. It’s a phone call, >for pete’s sake, not a subpoena.

Hello? Let’s read for content this time, ok? Here is her first post: : I have a Cocker Spaniel that is 15 months old and I have been noticing a : chattering that has been worrying me. Whenever he bites down on something : hard for a short duration and then lets go his teeth chatter. It happens : mostly when we are playing tug of war or fetch and he lets go of the toy. So, we have a young dog who, when he bites something hard, has chattering teeth. Now, let’s *r*e*a*d* her next post on the topic: : This has been an ongoing thing for months. I just never thought much about : it until last night when it was really noticeable. He has been to the vet : many times and gotten a clean bill of health (as far as temperature, : weight,etc. are concerned – I never did ask about the chattering). So, the dog goes to the vet on a regular basis, his teeth have been chattering all the while, during play, and the vet hasn’t seen a problem with the dog. The owner too, has not seen a problem, as it’s been going on for months, without a thought to that there may BE a problem. Look: I am all for people taking their dogs to a vet when there is a problem. And I think that people who post things like "my dog’s guts are hanging out, should I go to a vet"? are idiots. But people who own dogs should learn to observe them. The dog plays tug or fetch. He’s a Sporting breed. He probably LIKES to play fetch and or tug. Dogs, when they are excited, often have chattering teeth. Taking this dog to a vet would be akin to saying, "gee my dog is wagging his tail when he walks past a mirror, maybe he’s blind". While it’s good to take a dog in when there is a problem, it’s also good to learn about dogs and their behavior, so that you can tell what is physical and what is not. This dog sounds like he has regular vet visits, and that the chattering has gone on for awhile. I don’t see how, with the information provided, you can decide that there is a physical problem with the dog. Hey, it’s her money: she can take him to the vet, and no one is going to stop her. But if it were my money, I’d observe cause and effect: dog tugs, dog teeth chatter. Shrug. Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

>If you are so ’smart’ why didn’t you say "it has been ‘my’ experience with ‘my’ >dogs that sometimes in the middle of play their teeth chatter."

What are you, some sort of usenet lawyer? >You canNOT say this dog is NOT sick because it has been MY experience that TWO >of MY dogs had teeth chattering and in both cases it turned out to be sign of >infection. (one had an impacted tooth and the other a kidney infection).

Her dog (I do not know about your’s) apparently goes to the vet on a regular basis. Given the dog’s age, it’s probably gone to the vet quite often for puppy shots and then rabies shots and then a well puppy check up. If my dog had a kidney infection, I would hope that I would notice it sooner than the chattering teeth stage. And, I would also hope that weekly teeth cleaning and scaling (which i do: do you?) would find a tooth problem sooner than that. Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

> Taking this dog to a vet would be akin to saying, "gee my dog is wagging > his tail when he walks past a mirror, maybe he’s blind". While it’s good > to take a dog in when there is a problem, it’s also good to learn about > dogs and their behavior, so that you can tell what is physical and what is > not. This dog sounds like he has regular vet visits, and that the > chattering has gone on for awhile. I don’t see how, with the information > provided, you can decide that there is a physical problem with the dog.

I did not advise her to take her dog to the vet. I advised her to call the vet if she has any questions about her dog’s health or behavior. I also did not decide that her dog has a physical problem. To play it your way, *r*e*a*d* for content. > Hey, it’s her money: she can take him to the vet, and no one is going to > stop her.

Shouldn’t cost her anything to call and ask a question. But if it were my money, I’d observe cause and effect: dog tugs, > dog teeth chatter. Shrug.

You may observe that, and I may observe that, but it’s quite obvious that some people are just not going to make that connection. Why are you chastising me for suggesting someone take responsibility in their own hands and ask a question of a known, competent professional if they feel it’s warranted? So what if the vet might think the question is silly? That’s for the client and vet to work out, don’t you think? Cate

Response:

message > But if it were my money, I’d observe cause and effect: dog tugs, > dog teeth chatter. Shrug. > You may observe that, and I may observe that, but it’s quite obvious that > some people are just not going to make that connection.

FWIW, I’ve never seen a dog’s teeth chatter. Kristine & Oscar

Response:

>FWIW, I’ve never seen a dog’s teeth chatter. >Kristine >& Oscar

Is Oscar intact or neutered? Almost any intact male, and probably most neutered males, will, when they sniff where a bitch has recently peed, have chattering teeth. I’m sure that his teeth have chattered, you just may not have been in the habit of observing what happens after he sniffs bitch pee. Dogs who are also very food motivated will also show teeth chattering when they smell something that is really good to them. Dogs who are very toy motiviated may also chatter teeth when they are playing with a toy that they like a great deal. Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

>message > But if it were my money, I’d observe cause and effect: dog tugs, > > dog teeth chatter. Shrug. > You may observe that, and I may observe that, but it’s quite obvious that > some people are just not going to make that connection. >FWIW, I’ve never seen a dog’s teeth chatter.

neither have i. and if i had, it would have seriously weirded me out. i don’t think the OP should be chastised for asking the question, nor the people who suggested she ask her vet. if one of my dogs’ teeth had been chattering, even after playing tug, i would have either asked here or asked my vet about it. it’s nice to know that it’s a "normal" thing, though. i’ll file that info away for later. shelly and elliott & harriet http://members.home.net/scouvrette/index/

Response:

Yes, it happens in the house at room temperature.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> does it happen in ‘warm’ temperatures? In other words, have you ruled out the > obvious? (Is he chattering because he is COLD?)

Response:

> Dogs who >are very toy motiviated may also chatter teeth when they are playing with >a toy that they like a great deal.

Two of my three when given an object to hold may chatter their teeth on it, especially when it’s in fun or the object is very hard. Bobster will also spend ages on the bitch urine thing – sniff, taste, chatter, circle, sniff, taste, chatter, circle… – ANDREA — Get PAID for the emails you already send and receive! ANDROMEDA – Internet Goddess Bloodaxe’s History Links: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5055/ The Loony Bin Archive: http://loonies.net800.co.uk/

Response:

Well, I most certainly didn’t mean to cause so much fuss over the matter…but for what it’s worth thank you to everyone who responded. I have come to the conclusion that my Cocker (who, by the way, is my first dog) is fine and that the chattering is a result of being excited. He is a serious chomper (he destroys bones in no time flat!) so it doesn’t surprise me that the chattering is happening. He has indeed been to the vet many,many times and I trust that my vet would have found a problem if there were one. I tried agility with him. He got seriously freaked out and never seemed to take a liking to it. As for having so much interest in playing, he sure does! I only wish he had as much interest in going for walks at night. Thanks again! — Kendal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sounds like a question for your vet. Just call up, describe the problem, and >ask if a visit is warranted. Vets’ offices are used to getting such calls, >and you should feel comfortable calling them any time with such questions. >It’s better to answer such questions now than deal with a potentially >serious problem down the road that could’ve been attended to earlier on. > Look, I am all for taking dogs to the vet when they are sick. But people > who are dog owners should learn a teeny tiny bit about dog behavior as > well. > One more time: > when dogs play they can get really revved up. If this happens,their teeth > will chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!!!! > When male dogs smell pee, they will often have chattery teeth and even > drool. THIS IS NORMAL!!!!! > If the dog mentioned in the first post is playing tug, and the tug object > is not in his mouth, and he’s really into tugging, odds are his teeth will > chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!! > None of this is worth bothering a vet over, or dragging the dog in for an > office visit. > If more people pushed back from their computers, turned off their modems, > and WATCHED what their dogs did, they could learn an awful lot about the > health and well being of their dogs. And, they’d save money at the vet and > worry about their dogs. > So, in conclusion: this dog is not sick, is not suffering from anything, > he’s PLAYING!! Am I the only one here who watches my dogs play and who > plays with them? Why is everyone trying to scare this poor Cocker owner? I > think it’s wonderful to see a Cocker with so much interest in playing. I > bet it would be a fun dog to take out and try agility with. > Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy > — > Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A > is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

>Yes, it happens in the house at room temperature.

I asked the obvious because sometimes I myself forget to "Think Small" (a valued tool I once learned as a teacher and forget to use Often in everyday life).

Response:

>When I got Solo he wasn’t neutered, and I didn’t neuter him for about >three weeks (he was such a basket case that I thought it best to let him >settle in first). He would drool like a madman and lick and taste other >dogs’ pee (we live in the middle of the city, there are lots of dogs >around here, and lots of irresponsible owners, so there must be plenty of >intact bitches). I have never seen his teeth chatter in this context.

Boy dogs often won’t care if they are intact bitches or not. Any port in a storm and all that. Sligo doesn’t chatter. He’ll drool and his mouth will do a humina, humina thing like in the Three Stooges. Roy will chatter. In both cases you can see the tops of their skulls moving their ears around. All of this is as dopey as it sounds! Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

> Is Oscar intact or neutered?

Oscar is somewhat lacking in the testicle department. And people often call him "she" (thanks to his long girly legs and graceful ears.) That’s okay – I get called "sir" on a semi-regular basis, as I loom over shop counters, etc. No complexes here, nope. Kristine & Oscar

Response:

>> Is Oscar intact or neutered? >Oscar is somewhat lacking in the testicle department. And people often call >him "she" (thanks to his long girly legs and graceful ears.) >That’s okay – I get called "sir" on a semi-regular basis, as I loom over >shop counters, etc.

Well, people often ask if Roy is a boy or a girl. Considering that his boy parts are swinging in the breeze, it’s sort of odd… maybe they’re afraid to look? Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy — Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

Very well said!!!! Mitzu and Lady Boss Keep up the good work – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sounds like a question for your vet. Just call up, describe the problem, and >ask if a visit is warranted. Vets’ offices are used to getting such calls, >and you should feel comfortable calling them any time with such questions. >It’s better to answer such questions now than deal with a potentially >serious problem down the road that could’ve been attended to earlier on. > Look, I am all for taking dogs to the vet when they are sick. But people > who are dog owners should learn a teeny tiny bit about dog behavior as > well. > One more time: > when dogs play they can get really revved up. If this happens,their teeth > will chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!!!! > When male dogs smell pee, they will often have chattery teeth and even > drool. THIS IS NORMAL!!!!! > If the dog mentioned in the first post is playing tug, and the tug object > is not in his mouth, and he’s really into tugging, odds are his teeth will > chatter. IT IS NORMAL!!! > None of this is worth bothering a vet over, or dragging the dog in for an > office visit. > If more people pushed back from their computers, turned off their modems, > and WATCHED what their dogs did, they could learn an awful lot about the > health and well being of their dogs. And, they’d save money at the vet and > worry about their dogs. > So, in conclusion: this dog is not sick, is not suffering from anything, > he’s PLAYING!! Am I the only one here who watches my dogs play and who > plays with them? Why is everyone trying to scare this poor Cocker owner? I > think it’s wonderful to see a Cocker with so much interest in playing. I > bet it would be a fun dog to take out and try agility with. > Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy > — > Whenever A annoys or injures B on the pretense of saving or improving X, A > is a scoundrel. – H. L. Mencken

Response:

dog behaviorists

admin — Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I presently have two dogs. A blue heeler and a dali/lab.. I have always had adopted dogs. A common result of training dogs.

Response:

I agree that one does not have to be a "devote of skinner" but it sure helps to have a understanding of reinforcement and the consequences of same.

Response:

There is truth to what you say. Skinner had a lot to say about behavior and psychology. However, if someone isn’t familiar with Skinner’s work, they can still be a good dog trainer. If they’re getting results, and their clients are happy, that’s good enough.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> HI: > Many people, novice and expert alike, can train dogs. To me a behaviorist, > whether it be one that deals with people or dogs, is at least somewhat familar > with BF Skinner and his experiments and research and his discoveries. of how > behavior really happens. and therefore, what may be needed to change it. A > behaviorist recognizes that the vast majority of a dog’s behavior, or for that > matter, peoples behavior, is a function of reinforcement, positive or negative, > regardless, when dealing with dogs, as to the name of the particular training > procedure. And, when one changes the reinforcement contingencies one will get > different behavior. > I agree, there are very few actual behaviorists around for people or dogs. I > have spent over 30 yrs off and on working with people and for the last 20 yrs > with dogs > I have heard many times trainers and other so called experts talking about a > dog’s behavior being "stubborn", > "vengeful", "get even", and many other "emotional" type of responses. I love > dogs, but they are not people. (lucky for us) They rarely have our "faults". > .As long as we think these are the supposed causes of the behavior we rarely > get around to looking for the actual causes and are less then sucessful with > dealing with the various behavior problems we see and experience. > Hope this helps. > Roger

Response:

I for one when I refer to a ‘behaviorist’ rather than a trainer usually mean it as short hand for a veterinary behaviorist or as a person known in the field of behavior modification rather than a ’simple’ dog trainer. Local to me dog trainer means someone who uses one training method on all dogs brought to them to ‘cure’ all the problems and quite frequently that one method still is pure force sometimes applied abusively. I’ve met lots of trainers and only a few behaviorists with the ‘gift’ or the education to see and shape behaviors of dogs and their people. Nancy

Response:

Just out of curiosity, do you own any dogs yourself?? Or breed???

Response:

HI: Many people, novice and expert alike, can train dogs. To me a behaviorist, whether it be one that deals with people or dogs, is at least somewhat familar with BF Skinner and his experiments and research and his discoveries. of how behavior really happens. and therefore, what may be needed to change it. A behaviorist recognizes that the vast majority of a dog’s behavior, or for that matter, peoples behavior, is a function of reinforcement, positive or negative, regardless, when dealing with dogs, as to the name of the particular training procedure. And, when one changes the reinforcement contingencies one will get different behavior. I agree, there are very few actual behaviorists around for people or dogs. I have spent over 30 yrs off and on working with people and for the last 20 yrs with dogs I have heard many times trainers and other so called experts talking about a dog’s behavior being "stubborn", "vengeful", "get even", and many other "emotional" type of responses. I love dogs, but they are not people. (lucky for us) They rarely have our "faults". .As long as we think these are the supposed causes of the behavior we rarely get around to looking for the actual causes and are less then sucessful with dealing with the various behavior problems we see and experience. Hope this helps. Roger

Response:

Dog Behaviorist?

admin — Sat, 23 Dec 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Yeah. Ask them about shocking your dog. They’ll tell you it’s approved…by veterinarians and behaviorists… BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In the US your vet and the closest veterinary college would be my choices > for starting seeking a behaviorist. > Nancy > No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog > behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region. Is > there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog > behaviorists in the USA/States? If not, how does one go about locating a > behaviorist? Thanks

Response:

Is that the best you can do? No double talk? I feel gyped. Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – words: > No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog > behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region. Is > there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog > behaviorists in the USA/States? If not, how does one go about locating a > behaviorist? Thanks > The organiztion in the UK the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, is > in the UK but also lists people in the USA > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/guide.html > See also Animal Behavior Society > http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/abspamplet.html > Diane Blackman > Play is necessary to the fullest development of any intelligent being. > http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html

Response:

> No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog > behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region. Is > there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog > behaviorists in the USA/States? If not, how does one go about locating a > behaviorist? Thanks

The organiztion in the UK the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors, is in the UK but also lists people in the USA http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/guide.html See also Animal Behavior Society http://www.animalbehavior.org/Applied/abspamplet.html Diane Blackman Play is necessary to the fullest development of any intelligent being. http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html

Response:

In the US your vet and the closest veterinary college would be my choices for starting seeking a behaviorist. Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog > behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region. Is > there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog > behaviorists in the USA/States? If not, how does one go about locating a > behaviorist? Thanks

Response:

No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region. Is there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog behaviorists in the USA/States? If not, how does one go about locating a behaviorist? Thanks

Response:

Hello RTN, > No doubt there is a difference between a dog trainer and a dog > behaviorist, the latter being hard to locate within any given region.

I dunno. The only thing for sure I can tell you is, there’s MOORE bunk and double talk thrown around by our dog fanciers than any other group of "sportsmen." Behaviorists alledgedly go to universities and pay bums like lyindoc dermer or that other chump at the U of Wisc dr. p., to sell them a sheepskin for doing the same things they’ve learned from others, who sold them their sheepskins, so they could in turn, sell sheepskins. Mostly what they know is "why it happens," not "HOWE to FIX it." HOWE’S THAT FOR A RACKET??? Trainers differ in many ways, some work with only certain types of dogs or situations, some are trained through schools for dog training run by "master trainers" like our pal cap’n haggarty, and they then go on to double talk and fleece people based on what the traffic might bear like his superb protege unkle matty… Sometimes that backfires and the folks opt out to kill the dog instead of spending thousands of hard earned bucks, but a trainer who is an excellent salesman and judge of character, especially if he employ’s a little GUILT, can extort almost as much bread as he wants from concerned, loving, dog owners. Much of this is a racket. > Is there an organization other than the one in UK that lists the dog > behaviorists in the USA/States?

Oh yeah. We got ‘em. The only problem is, who’s making the "rules"??? > If not, how does one go about locating a behaviorist?

Well, we had one here for a while, who allegedly taught at the U of FL or something, and she’s got a web site called "miracle dogs" or something like that. Her job I guess is to teach vet students HOWE to handle and control dogs in the veterinary or clinic or lab settings. Stuff like picking up rats someHOWE so you don’t get bit and handlng gooey things without getting it on your fingers and stuff like that. The kind of dog training your vet gets is ZERO. The "behaviorists" who teach them are only "clinicians" and haven’t got the foggiest notion of what’s appropriate or reasonable to do to or expect from, a domestic, family, or working, dog. They’re the bums who tell us to alpha roll and scruff shake dogs because that’s the way wolves treat their own kin… Is THAT the kind of LESSON you’d like to DEMONSTRATE to your kid’s dog??? Then, we’ve got the kind of behaviorst who will come to your home and LOOK at you for a few hours and charge you a few hundred bucks to tell you your dog is 90% good, and 10% bad, and should probably be put down, unless you want to make a firm stand with him, or you might get one who’s gonna give you the jolly routine and tell you to give the dog lots of cookies. Well, I don’t go for nun of that. > Thanks

Most dog trainers and behaviorists will tell you they’ve got to see a behavior happening before they can tell you anything about dealing with it. That’s bunk. If they knew their subject, they’d be able to give answers and suggestions for training the problems right over the phone or net. They’ll tell you that they’ve got to determine what kind of personality or character the dog has, and BECAUSE every dog is DIFFERENT, they’ll have to asses him to figure out an approach. Well, every dog may be different, but every behavior problem is the same. That’s why these bums here can’t understand that one method will work on all dogs, because the INDIVIDUAL dog is IRRELEVANT, compared to the CORRECT methods of training and handling them. Since scientific and psychological methods of working with dogs are SCIENTIFIC, that means, we don’t have to TAILOR the METHOD, we TAILOR the DOG. See? It’s easy to answer all the tough questions. You just gotta know HOWE. Your pal Jerry "The Phony," Howe. P.S. You can get all the INFORMATION you need to learn to train your dog to do anything you want, from the FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual at http://www.doggydoright.com Oh. And you don’t have to buy my Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too), that’s O.K. I’ll still teach you HOWE to train your dog without HURTING or INTIMIDATING him. j;~}

Response:

rtm, Beware of Jerry Howe. Jerry Howe is only here to sell you his dubious $100 electronic training device. That is where the link he posts takes you. His "free training manual" offer is the bait for his underhanded "bait & switch" scam. (An unhappy purchaser of Jerry’s $100 training device has posted a review at: If Jerry were an honest person he would post a genuine link to the "free training manual" & not try to scam every new person on the newsgroup. Unfortunately he refuses to do so and, as you can see by his posts, viciously attacks, slanders, and lies about anyone who disagrees with him in any way. As recently as 12/7, Jerry Howe encouraged a poster in this very newsgroup to: , & I quote, " P.S. Take a couple of Tylenol with cyaninde. " EdW http://Petloss.com

Response:

Hello ed. You’re a lying, dog abusing, coward. You recommend the koehler book. You’ve provided about twenty book review endorsements from koehler method "trainers." Here’s a few QUOTES from YOUR PAL koehler AND a few from some of his supporters here: Try the quiz???

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG" HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider. "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? See what I mean? You can’t justify that. "Read koehler for content" marquis de shaw, IDIOT, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, IDIOT, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. Koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? That’s the ONLY question ANYONE of you CAN answer. The answer is OBVIOUS. koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS HOWE MUCH brains does it take to beat a dog every twenty minutes for the same mistake you’ve tied it next to??? But I might like shooting them with a sling shot or BB gun better, you know, to teach the dog to WANT to stay at home. IT’S IN THE BOOK. Ask PROFESSOR DERMER to tell us HOWE the dog understands koehler coming back every twenty minutes to punish him again for the same mistake he’s tied him up next to, to housetrain him??? Go ahead and ASK HIM. The dirty COWARD won’t talk to me about it. He won’t talk to Marilyn about it, and he can’t say SHE’S been INCIVIL WITH HIM. We know HOWE SENSITIVE our koehler trainers are… > lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis. "Read for koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Idiot, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, IDIOT, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) "Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "Don’t let him do that, read cindymooreon’s web page," boob maida. And the prongs sticking and pinching into the dog’s throat is NOT DURESS. That’s why the dogs get "excited" when they see their "training" collars come out. They are BEGGING not to hurt them some moore. It’s the same way lyingfrosty dahl and freaky frantik fraud die get that animated look in their dogs when they work. The dog is TERRIFIED. The wiggling and happy look is ANXIETY, FEAR, and SUBMISSION. The dog is BEGGING not to hurt him some more. Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe.

Response:

Dobermann pup/dominace issue?

admin — Mon, 11 Dec 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

No, Canis (this is actually canis55) is way too polite to be Jerry Howe. And unlike Jerry, I think he actually means well, and probably even likes dogs. However, he has a lot of strange ideas that he can’t really back up, and he can get rather defensive about that. > Yes, I’ve known of young puppies who have quite early had dominance > issues. I’ve known of male puppies who lift their legs and mark > territory at 12 weeks of age. And dogs to understand rank. Maybe not > in the way we do, as in, "I know I’m number two on the totem pole." > But their entire social system is based on rank and how they fit into > it.

Yes, I think ranking in dogs has been very well documented. To replace the concept of rank would require some big-time evidence that I don’t think anyone is ever going to come up with. I think Canis for some reason is just uncomfortable with the concept of rank (perhaps because it is unegalitarian, maybe?), and that colors a lot of his thinking. –Terri & Harlan — What Would Robot Frank Do?

Response:

>and erm I did post my question over a day ago not 5hrs ago …

yes, but a lot of people only read rpd* during business hours. you posted right before 5:00, so for those people, they didn’t have a whole lotta time to reply before you started stomping your feets . and, to be precise, it was not *quite* a day ago. that said… >Seriously I get the feeling that if a poster to this ng isnt a regular

there is no Cabal, Cult, or Secret Society. there is no Initiation Ceremony (well, some individuals *do* enjoy a bit of hazing on the side, but can you blame them?). there is no secret to getting your posts answered. well, you could donate to the Save the Shelly Fund, but it’s not really a prerequisite. re negative replies: if you’re referring to Mr. Howe and his Band o’ Merry Idiots, then i would suggest kill filing them. trust me, it’ll make you *much* happier. re no replies: sometimes people just plain do not *have* an answer for you. i didn’t, so i didn’t reply. or maybe they’re busy with other things and don’t answer. or people may not have seen your post. or they’re mulling it over and will eventually post some advice when they sort it out. or (and this really *is* sad) they look at the thread, see Jar-Jar and his Band o’ Merry Idiots, and decide that the thread is best left ignored. >Perhaps I was a bit impatient in my outburst but I feel that its >serious stuff when a puppy takes bites at humans and the situation needs >addressing right away…

it *is* a serious problem. my best advice for you is to seek out a good behaviorist in your area. i think this is a situation where you need in-the-flesh help. >Could someone please repost the reply by D. Childe >news server not getting your answers to me then I apologise in advance for >my dissing of the regulars

sure, but remember that www.deja.com is your friend . [requested re-post is included below] shelly and elliott & harriet http://members.home.net/scouvrette/index/ — I recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe should be ignored as a monumental pain in the arse Path: uni-berlin.de!fu-berlin.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online .de!newsfeed.hanau.net!fr.clara.net!NiOuZphide.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews. com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1 .deja.com!not-for-mail Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior Organization: Deja.com – Before you buy. Lines: 102 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.165.4.253 X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 216.165.4.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdemonchild666 Xref: uni-berlin.de rec.pets.dogs.behavior:290267 hi richy, I realize you are well intentioned in what you’ve been doing so far, but I should tell you you’ve been sadly misled by some of the more popular ideas regarding dogs and their behaviors. First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance. Second, and this is very important, dogs are not capable of the kind of abstract or representational thinking that would allow them to have any kind of concept of rank or status. At best, they are aware of relative strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other–and not the others. I understand that you have raised several dogs of this same breed and that the ideas you hold regarding dogs have so far served you to your satisfaction, but obviously you’ve run into a snag with this one. I can solve the problem for you, but it will require a completely different approach from the one that has worked so well with your other dogs. Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior. Either way, I wish you good luck with this.

Response:

> anyway thanks a bunch for nothing, this isnt the first question i’ve > posted > and as usual I have the usual zilch response > Wow, and you waited all of… what, 5 hours, 10 minutes? You might try > waiting at least one working day, or better yet through a weekend. > Leslie

Leslie, if my aggresive post gets some answers then it was worth the outburst and erm I did post my question over a day ago not 5hrs ago … Seriously I get the feeling that if a poster to this ng isnt a regular (like me) then s/he’s likely to get either ignored or ridiculed or even have the thread hijacked with petty arguments and backbiting, sometimes tho there are a few good answers to the original question so it makes the negative replys worthwile . Perhaps I was a bit impatient in my outburst but I feel that its serious stuff when a puppy takes bites at humans and the situation needs addressing right away… Could someone please repost the reply by D. Childe news server not getting your answers to me then I apologise in advance for my dissing of the regulars

Response:

> hi richy, > I realize you are well intentioned in what you’ve been doing so far, > but I should tell you you’ve been sadly misled by some of the more > popular ideas regarding dogs and their behaviors. > First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly > related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually > immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance.

Do you have any proof for this statement? Because I do not believe that this is correct. > Second, and this is very important, dogs are not capable of the kind > of abstract or representational thinking that would allow them to > have any kind of concept of rank or status.

Do you have any proof for this statement? Because I think this is also incorrect. My experience is that dogs are _very_ conscious of rank. And how would you know that dogs are not capable of abstract or representational thinking? I think the jury is still out on that one. I suspect they can, at least to some degree, if only because I don’t think it seems very likely that humans are the only animals that can do this. Besides, why does a concept of rank require abstract or representational thinking? I’m not convinced that it does. I think it more likely that you have been misled into thinking that it does, if only because to communicate these ideas in this forum requires using our abstract and representational language to discuss them. Either way, a concept of rank is very useful for any group of beings that need to work together. If the group can not work together as a single unit at least part of the time, you lose a lot of the benefit of being in a group. For that unit to function, a hierarchy works well. For the hierarchy to work, rank must be recognized in some fashion. So it is not surprising that animals that live in groups (packs, herds, flocks) would have some sense of rank. It would be a survival benefit. I think ranking has been well demonstrated in all sorts of animals, from dogs, to cows and chickens (as in "pecking order"). You’ve made a lot of pronouncements here, but I don’t think you can back them up. > At best, they are aware of relative strengths and weaknesses in > relation to the other–and not the others.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, especially "the other– and not the others" part. > I understand that you have raised several dogs of this same breed and > that the ideas you hold regarding dogs have so far served you to your > satisfaction, but obviously you’ve run into a snag with this one. > I can solve the problem for you, but it will require a completely > different approach from the one that has worked so well with your > other dogs.

This seems very unlikely, as I don’t think you really seem to understand dogs very well. > Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the > information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior.

I find this suspicious. I think you know that your ideas would be questioned if you posted them here, and you are not very comfortable with that. > Either way, I wish you good luck with this.

I think you mean well, Canis, but I don’t think that meaning well is enough. I think the original poster would be better off listening to someone with a little more dog experience, especially Doberman experience. –Terri & Harlan — What Would Robot Frank Do?

Response:

> From that point on, everything dogs do is related to dominance.

While I agree that dogs have a concept of rank, I do not agree with this statement. Not everything dogs do is related to dominance. Sometimes they do things for fun. Sometimes they do things because they are afraid. Sometimes they do things because they are hungry. And so on. Just as humans (and robots) have many different motivations governing the things they do, so do dogs, and probably most animals. > Even territoriality is an offshoot of dominance aggression.

I’d need to see some evidence for this statement before accepting it. Territoriality could also be the result of simple self-preservation. Probably other stuff, too. I think your model of dog behavior is way too simplified to be useful. –Terri & Harlan — What Would Robot Frank Do?

Response:

>First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly >related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually >immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance.

Then why was my Australian Shepherd displaying dominant behaviors from the moment I brought him home at 8 weeks of age? Why does he hump my other dogs even though he’s neutered? Why does my spayed bitch, Fudge, hump other dogs? I’m afraid I don’t agree with you here. While dominance does play a role in reproduction in dogs, I don’t think it’s *strictly* a sexual behavior. Denna "Simple questions are for simple minds. Life is not two dimensional." -Loco

Response:

There are many drawbacks to newsgroups. The user will sometimes have to wade through a lot of mud to find a few usable items. That’s just how things are. You have to be determined enough to work for useful answers.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > anyway thanks a bunch for nothing, this isnt the first question i’ve > posted > > and as usual I have the usual zilch response > Wow, and you waited all of… what, 5 hours, 10 minutes? You might try > waiting at least one working day, or better yet through a weekend. > Leslie > Leslie, if my aggresive post gets some answers then it was worth the > outburst and erm I did post my question over a day ago not 5hrs ago … > Seriously I get the feeling that if a poster to this ng isnt a regular (like > me) then s/he’s likely to get either ignored or ridiculed or even have the > thread hijacked with petty arguments and backbiting, sometimes tho there are > a few good answers to the original question so it makes the negative replys > worthwile . Perhaps I was a bit impatient in my outburst but I feel that its > serious stuff when a puppy takes bites at humans and the situation needs > addressing right away… > Could someone please repost the reply by D. Childe > news server not getting your answers to me then I apologise in advance for > my dissing of the regulars

Response:

>Yes, I think ranking in dogs has been very well documented. To replace >the concept of rank would require some big-time evidence that I don’t >think anyone is ever going to come up with.

Actually, I think it might be reasonably well documented, but not well understood. We (the human race) tend to interpret what we see through a big ol’ anthropomorphic lens. Dogs undoubtedly have a ranking system, but it’s far more complex and flexible than the usual "me Tarzan you Jane" paradigm people generally think it is. –Cindy

Response:

Excuse me???? Where would you GET an idea like that? About everything a dog does from the moment of birth is related to status and dominance. Puppies will fight each other for access to good teats a few days after birth. From that point on, everything dogs do is related to dominance. Even territoriality is an offshoot of dominance aggression. > so there is no way your sexually > immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance.

In many cases even sexuality is more about dominance than it is about sex. This is even true in human culture in cases of rape. Rape is recognized as being a lot more about dominance than sex.

Response:

Well put, Leslie.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> anyway thanks a bunch for nothing, this isnt the first question i’ve > posted > and as usual I have the usual zilch response > Wow, and you waited all of… what, 5 hours, 10 minutes? You might try > waiting at least one working day, or better yet through a weekend. > Leslie

Response:

Dogs naturally run in packs. Pack structure is hierarchical. Dogs are born with the desire to improve their rank. If that were not true, the pack would fall apart if the leader died.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the > information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior > What, and leave the rest of us out in the cold? Why not post to the > group? I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say. > I don’t agree that dominance is sexually related and that dogs have no > concept of hierarchy…. could just be semantics though — replace the word > "dominance" with "leadership" and maybe we’d be on the same wavelength. At > any rate, I find it NEVER hurts to listen to someone else’s opinions and > experiences, then implement what works for me, my dog, and my situation. > Here’s a story of experience (I’m just a novice dog owner, not a pro): > My almost-6-month-old pup growled at my youngest (8 years) when she tried to > take something from him while he was chewing on it. My 8 year old does take > toys from him while he’s chewing them, throws them or tosses them, and he > usually happily runs to get them, then brings them back for another round. > This time it was a particularly wonderful soup bone, and he growled. > My husband immediately took the bone from the dog (no growls, no protests) > and put it away for about 24 hours. Those of us who were in the room > ignored the pup for several minutes (he hates this). My husband concocted a > plan which I thought made a lot of sense… > The next day, with my husband sitting close to the dog (brushing him, or > petting him), the 8 year old got the soup bone, walked around looking at it > and "playing" with it. She spit on it to be sure it smelled very strongly > of her. The pup wanted to snag the bone but was restrained (physically, by > big "hugs" around his body) from rushing toward the 8 year old. When the 8 > year old was through playing with the bone and "became bored" with it, she > tossed it down and went on to something else. We allowed the pup to have > her "leftovers" (with her smell all over it) and that seemed to straighten > things out, at least for that particular soup bone. > We also got the 8 year old to feed the pup (with a sit, and stay until > released) for several meals after that, to reinforce the idea that she is a > member of Those In Control of All Things Good, and to reinforce the pup’s > self control around her. > We have a new soup bone in the freezer. It will be interesting to see if > the pup is less possessive of this one. > Bottom line: we’re trying to teach the pup that he is NOT allowed to growl > if we remove something from his mouth. He’s only growled once, but the > reaction was swift: he lost his "toy" and was ignored. Then someone else > was given ownership of the "toy." We try to reinforce the idea that the > people are the (benevolent) leaders, and the pup should restrain his > agressive behavior toward us. > Leslie > PS – I’ve been told in this newsgroup that alpha-rolling an aggressive dog > is an invitation to fight, and may actually encourage more aggressive > behavior. It’s as if the human is challenging the dog. I don’t know if > that’s true. I’ve not seen it in any books, but I don’t yet consider myself > well read where dogs are concerned. Working on that…

Response:

[...] >I think Canis for some reason is just uncomfortable with the concept of >rank (perhaps because it is unegalitarian, maybe?), and that colors a >lot of his thinking.

I just think he’s a FLAKE. See: Ockham’s Razor. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman For everything you’ve ever wanted to know about our newsgroup’s many TROLLS: http://www.i1.net/~dogman/trolls.html

Response:

> >Yes, I think ranking in dogs has been very well documented. To >replace the concept of rank would require some big-time evidence >that I don’t think anyone is ever going to come up with. > Actually, I think it might be reasonably well documented, but not well > understood. We (the human race) tend to interpret what we see through > a big ol’ anthropomorphic lens. Dogs undoubtedly have a ranking > system, but it’s far more complex and flexible than the usual "me > Tarzan you Jane" paradigm people generally think it is.

I agree. Well documented enough that to claim dogs don’t have a concept of rank is silly. But to claim that we understand dog’s concept of rank is equally silly, so I shouldn’t imply that it’s completely understood (and I think I _was_ implying that). I think sometimes people can see differences in status as a "better than" or "worse than" thing, which I do not think is accurate. –Terri & Harlan — What Would Robot Frank Do?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s also important to restrict his access to off limits stuff. Don’t > dangle > dish towels, expensive belts, shoes, sofa pillows etc. in front of him. > Cut > off his desire to aquire YOUR stuff before he has a chance to think about > it. > Keep stuff picked up, close bedroom and bathroom doors, don’t let the pup > in > there. Get him used to having rules inside the house. > Elaine, the question I asked is how do I train my kids to respond to his > agresiveness.

Now don’t get ahead of yourself. I responded to the first paragraph because you provided enough information to work with. This is just a pup. Give him a chance, things could come together. >Your advice is common sense, something I can work out for > myself

Excuse me, it’s NOT something you have worked out yet. If he is still snagging prizes and teasing people with his booty, you have not worked it out. >, Its all well and good following your above advice but puppys *will* > find *something* to chew on that they should’nt at some time, then what?

Then he needs a more controlled area to park where he is both restrained and gets no access to your stuff. > oooh hes broken my rule I need to take it off him right now but I cant hes > gona growl at me and maybe bite.

Get the leash on his collar and control his head. You’re still bigger and stronger than he is. Don’t play his game. Make him stop, and take your item back. >… nobody has said anything about what to > do when hes taken something…

Your job is to see to it that he doesn’t get free access to your stuff. Work with your kids on how to control your pup when he gets too hyped. You are right, he can’t keep winning the encounters. When the kids back down to his growling, he has won.

Response:

Hello leslie, Our Gang Of Thugs doesn’t have any advice EXCEPT to HURT the dog. Jerry.

Response:

Excellent post, Canis. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hi richy, > I realize you are well intentioned in what you’ve been doing so far, > but I should tell you you’ve been sadly misled by some of the more > popular ideas regarding dogs and their behaviors. > First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly > related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually > immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance. > Second, and this is very important, dogs are not capable of the kind of > abstract or representational thinking that would allow them to have any > kind of concept of rank or status. At best, they are aware of relative > strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other–and not the others. > I understand that you have raised several dogs of this same breed and > that the ideas you hold regarding dogs have so far served you to your > satisfaction, but obviously you’ve run into a snag with this one. > I can solve the problem for you, but it will require a completely > different approach from the one that has worked so well with your other > dogs. > Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the > information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior. > Either way, I wish you good luck with this. > Ok ppl I need some advice. > The Problem: I have posted before about this pup and how > aggresive/dominant > he can be at times. His problem is if someone takes away something hes > grabbed or stops him doing something he shouldnt, sometimes he growls > and > finally tonight he bit… > I have the idea from talking to various ppl that when he was in the > litter > he was top pup and when he came into my home he still regarded > himself as > top dog and has acted acccordingly. > What I have done and the rest of my family is to some dominance work > on him, > ie, ocasionally rolling him on his back and then releasing him only > after he > has stopped flailing, growling, trying to bite etc. When he has > grabbed > something he shouldnt and growls when trying to take it away from him > we > persist in our actions of getting the object away from him along with > loads > of verbal NO’s and even some shaking of the loose skin on the back of > his > neck, eventually we get it away from him. > Most of above happened in the first few weeks of him joining our > family. > Atm, we have managed to get him down to third top dog in the family. > With me > and my wife he doesnt growl and bite but unfortunatly its with my > kids that > the dominance issue lies. Today my wife tells me he has bitten my 12 > year > old son on the hand when he tried to take something out of the pups > mouth, > the wound was slight and I cant tell you all the details of what > happened > cos i’m still at work writing this and havent been home yet. > The way I see it is that its a dominace problem not viciousnous. Hes > ok with > me and my wife but I think he sees himself as being 3rd top dog in my > family > after my 2 kids. I need advice on how to train my kids to handle this > pup > and get him down to where he should be in the family, my kids back > off when > he growls so basically my dog sees himself as winning the situation. > I am > concerned as I wouldnt want this dog biting my kids more seriously > than he > has already. My kids come first, this pup is 16 weeks and weighs in at > nearly 50lb, when hes fully grown hes going to be really big for a > Dobermann > so I need to get this problem sorted right now… > Sorry for the long post > Look forward to hearing your advice….. > Before you buy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > hi richy, > I realize you are well intentioned in what you’ve been doing so far, > but I should tell you you’ve been sadly misled by some of the more > popular ideas regarding dogs and their behaviors. > First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly > related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually > immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance. > Second, and this is very important, dogs are not capable of the kind of > abstract or representational thinking that would allow them to have any > kind of concept of rank or status. At best, they are aware of relative > strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other–and not the others.

Uh. Huh. And who are you? And what are your dog training credentials? Is this yet another reincarnation of Jerry Howe? Yes, I’ve known of young puppies who have quite early had dominance issues. I’ve known of male puppies who lift their legs and mark territory at 12 weeks of age. And dogs to understand rank. Maybe not in the way we do, as in, "I know I’m number two on the totem pole." But their entire social system is based on rank and how they fit into it.

Response:

> anyway thanks a bunch for nothing, this isnt the first question i’ve posted > and as usual I have the usual zilch response

Wow, and you waited all of… what, 5 hours, 10 minutes? You might try waiting at least one working day, or better yet through a weekend. Leslie

Response:

> Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the > information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior

What, and leave the rest of us out in the cold? Why not post to the group? I’d be interested in hearing what you have to say. I don’t agree that dominance is sexually related and that dogs have no concept of hierarchy…. could just be semantics though — replace the word "dominance" with "leadership" and maybe we’d be on the same wavelength. At any rate, I find it NEVER hurts to listen to someone else’s opinions and experiences, then implement what works for me, my dog, and my situation. Here’s a story of experience (I’m just a novice dog owner, not a pro): My almost-6-month-old pup growled at my youngest (8 years) when she tried to take something from him while he was chewing on it. My 8 year old does take toys from him while he’s chewing them, throws them or tosses them, and he usually happily runs to get them, then brings them back for another round. This time it was a particularly wonderful soup bone, and he growled. My husband immediately took the bone from the dog (no growls, no protests) and put it away for about 24 hours. Those of us who were in the room ignored the pup for several minutes (he hates this). My husband concocted a plan which I thought made a lot of sense… The next day, with my husband sitting close to the dog (brushing him, or petting him), the 8 year old got the soup bone, walked around looking at it and "playing" with it. She spit on it to be sure it smelled very strongly of her. The pup wanted to snag the bone but was restrained (physically, by big "hugs" around his body) from rushing toward the 8 year old. When the 8 year old was through playing with the bone and "became bored" with it, she tossed it down and went on to something else. We allowed the pup to have her "leftovers" (with her smell all over it) and that seemed to straighten things out, at least for that particular soup bone. We also got the 8 year old to feed the pup (with a sit, and stay until released) for several meals after that, to reinforce the idea that she is a member of Those In Control of All Things Good, and to reinforce the pup’s self control around her. We have a new soup bone in the freezer. It will be interesting to see if the pup is less possessive of this one. Bottom line: we’re trying to teach the pup that he is NOT allowed to growl if we remove something from his mouth. He’s only growled once, but the reaction was swift: he lost his "toy" and was ignored. Then someone else was given ownership of the "toy." We try to reinforce the idea that the people are the (benevolent) leaders, and the pup should restrain his agressive behavior toward us. Leslie PS – I’ve been told in this newsgroup that alpha-rolling an aggressive dog is an invitation to fight, and may actually encourage more aggressive behavior. It’s as if the human is challenging the dog. I don’t know if that’s true. I’ve not seen it in any books, but I don’t yet consider myself well read where dogs are concerned. Working on that…

Response:

> It’s also important to restrict his access to off limits stuff. Don’t dangle > dish towels, expensive belts, shoes, sofa pillows etc. in front of him. Cut > off his desire to aquire YOUR stuff before he has a chance to think about > it. > Keep stuff picked up, close bedroom and bathroom doors, don’t let the pup in > there. Get him used to having rules inside the house.

Elaine, the question I asked is how do I train my kids to respond to his agresiveness. Your advice is common sense, something I can work out for myself, Its all well and good following your above advice but puppys *will* find *something* to chew on that they should’nt at some time, then what? oooh hes broken my rule I need to take it off him right now but I cant hes gona growl at me and maybe bite…. nobody has said anything about what to do when hes taken something… And to all the regulars in this ng who took time to read and not answer my question… Thanks for nothing. This ng is petty, full of backbitting and stupid arguments, i’m outa here.. If most of the regular contributors to this ng where dogs, then they should be put down.. anyway thanks a bunch for nothing, this isnt the first question i’ve posted and as usual I have the usual zilch response….. gone

Response:

> You’ve been around here before. You should KNOW you ain’t gonna get any > decent advice from

Jerry Howe……http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.

Response:

hi richy, I realize you are well intentioned in what you’ve been doing so far, but I should tell you you’ve been sadly misled by some of the more popular ideas regarding dogs and their behaviors. First, I’d like you to understand that, in dogs, dominance is strictly related to reproductive instincts, so there is no way your sexually immature puppy could be experiencing impulses towards dominance. Second, and this is very important, dogs are not capable of the kind of abstract or representational thinking that would allow them to have any kind of concept of rank or status. At best, they are aware of relative strengths and weaknesses in relation to the other–and not the others. I understand that you have raised several dogs of this same breed and that the ideas you hold regarding dogs have so far served you to your satisfaction, but obviously you’ve run into a snag with this one. I can solve the problem for you, but it will require a completely different approach from the one that has worked so well with your other dogs. Should you be interested, contact me by email and I’ll email the information you will need to eliminate this food guarding behavior. Either way, I wish you good luck with this. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok ppl I need some advice. > The Problem: I have posted before about this pup and how aggresive/dominant > he can be at times. His problem is if someone takes away something hes > grabbed or stops him doing something he shouldnt, sometimes he growls and > finally tonight he bit… > I have the idea from talking to various ppl that when he was in the litter > he was top pup and when he came into my home he still regarded himself as > top dog and has acted acccordingly. > What I have done and the rest of my family is to some dominance work on him, > ie, ocasionally rolling him on his back and then releasing him only after he > has stopped flailing, growling, trying to bite etc. When he has grabbed > something he shouldnt and growls when trying to take it away from him we > persist in our actions of getting the object away from him along with loads > of verbal NO’s and even some shaking of the loose skin on the back of his > neck, eventually we get it away from him. > Most of above happened in the first few weeks of him joining our family. > Atm, we have managed to get him down to third top dog in the family. With me > and my wife he doesnt growl and bite but unfortunatly its with my kids that > the dominance issue lies. Today my wife tells me he has bitten my 12 year > old son on the hand when he tried to take something out of the pups mouth, > the wound was slight and I cant tell you all the details of what happened > cos i’m still at work writing this and havent been home yet. > The way I see it is that its a dominace problem not viciousnous. Hes ok with > me and my wife but I think he sees himself as being 3rd top dog in my family > after my 2 kids. I need advice on how to train my kids to handle this pup > and get him down to where he should be in the family, my kids back off when > he growls so basically my dog sees himself as winning the situation. I am > concerned as I wouldnt want this dog biting my kids more seriously than he > has already. My kids come first, this pup is 16 weeks and weighs in at > nearly 50lb, when hes fully grown hes going to be really big for a Dobermann > so I need to get this problem sorted right now… > Sorry for the long post > Look forward to hearing your advice…..

Before you buy.

Response:

It’s also important to restrict his access to off limits stuff. Don’t dangle dish towels, expensive belts, shoes, sofa pillows etc. in front of him. Cut off his desire to aquire YOUR stuff before he has a chance to think about it. Keep stuff picked up, close bedroom and bathroom doors, don’t let the pup in there. Get him used to having rules inside the house.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok ppl I need some advice. > The Problem: I have posted before about this pup and how aggresive/dominant > he can be at times. His problem is if someone takes away something hes > grabbed or stops him doing something he shouldnt, sometimes he growls and > finally tonight he bit… > I have the idea from talking to various ppl that when he was in the litter > he was top pup and when he came into my home he still regarded himself as > top dog and has acted acccordingly. > What I have done and the rest of my family is to some dominance work on him, > ie, ocasionally rolling him on his back and then releasing him only after he > has stopped flailing, growling, trying to bite etc. When he has grabbed > something he shouldnt and growls when trying to take it away from him we > persist in our actions of getting the object away from him along with loads > of verbal NO’s and even some shaking of the loose skin on the back of his > neck, eventually we get it away from him. > Most of above happened in the first few weeks of him joining our family. > Atm, we have managed to get him down to third top dog in the family. With me > and my wife he doesnt growl and bite but unfortunatly its with my kids that > the dominance issue lies. Today my wife tells me he has bitten my 12 year > old son on the hand when he tried to take something out of the pups mouth, > the wound was slight and I cant tell you all the details of what happened > cos i’m still at work writing this and havent been home yet. > The way I see it is that its a dominace problem not viciousnous. Hes ok with > me and my wife but I think he sees himself as being 3rd top dog in my family > after my 2 kids. I need advice on how to train my kids to handle this pup > and get him down to where he should be in the family, my kids back off when > he growls so basically my dog sees himself as winning the situation. I am > concerned as I wouldnt want this dog biting my kids more seriously than he > has already. My kids come first, this pup is 16 weeks and weighs in at > nearly 50lb, when hes fully grown hes going to be really big for a Dobermann > so I need to get this problem sorted right now… > Sorry for the long post > Look forward to hearing your advice…..

Response:

Hello Richy,

> Ok ppl I need some advice.

You’ve been around here before. You should KNOW you ain’t gonna get any decent advice from our Gang Of Thugs, they HURT dogs to train them because they’re afraid of dogs and don’t know any better than to act like animals towards their pets. > weeks old, male..

Yup. That’s just the right age to start jerking and choking your pup, according to lyingfrosty dahl. That is, unless his teeth are bothering him, and then it wouldn’t be FAIR to just hurt him because you wouldn’t know if he was out of sorts because of his teeth, or because he’s CHALLENGING your godlike authority… heh, heh, heh. > The Problem:

Problem? > I have posted before about this pup > and how aggresive/dominant he can > be at times.

Oh yes, ye olde dominance problem. You’ll get plenty of advice here to confront and punish the dog. They’ll tell you to get him into obedience training and jerk and choke him every week in a group, and then to jerk and choke him at home daily, till you KILL the dog at about nine months,and then they’ll tell you HOWE much you did for your dog, and HOWE MUCH you cared, and STILL couldn’t do anything with him… They’ll blame it on BAD BREEDING, like they did with Samson and Fritz. But they’ll say you dun your best… > His problem is if someone takes > away something hes grabbed or > stops him doing something he > shouldnt, sometimes he growls and > finally tonight he bit…

Well, you should snubb him up on a hitch to the ceiling or rafters, take his front feet right off the ground, and beat the living crap out of him with a heavy man’s leather belt or a nice hickory switch. That’s RIGHT OUT OF the koehler book that our pals lyindocdermer, lyingdogDUMMY, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER," lynn, lyingfrosty dahl, cindymooreon, ludwig smith, and MANY, MANY, MOORE of our top "experts" recommend… > I have the idea from talking to > various ppl that when he was in the > litter he was top pup

No doubt. He was probably a General or something. At least a commander, and leader of the HOODLUM puppy brigade. A dog like that NEEDS to be shown WHO’S BOSS. > and when he came into my home he > still regarded himself as top dog and > has acted acccordingly.

Amazing. TRULY AMAZING. That hoodlum dog is bamboozeling you! Don’t let him get the upper hand. You’ll lose. You’ve got to be SUPERIOR to the puppy, or you’ll end up KILLING him. > What I have done and the rest of my > family is to some dominance work > on him, ie, ocasionally rolling him on > his back and then releasing him only > after he has stopped flailing, > growling, trying to bite etc.

Well, well, well. If THAT didn’t work, do MOORE of the SAME, harder and faster. Then give him the whupping of his life. And I’d come back every twenty minutes and beat him again, just to make sure. OR ELSE, you’re gonna hafta HANG It. That’s the last resort before doing something more severe… according to koehler. It’s for his own good, so don’t spare the rod. REALLY LAY IT ON HIM. That’s what it says in the koehler book. > When he has grabbed something he > shouldnt and growls when trying to > take it away from him we persist in > our actions of getting the object > away from him along with loads > of verbal NO’s and even some > shaking of the loose skin on the > back of his neck, eventually we get > it away from him.

Yeah. You’re doing just fine. Those instructions are on cindymooreon’s FAQ’S page at k9web. Give him hell, you’re doing everything just exactly as it says in the book. If you’re not having success, it’s on account of you’re a lightweight. What’s the matter, are you a panzie??? You’ve REALLY got to lay it on him. It’s in the book. > Most of above happened in the first > few weeks of him joining our family.

That dog was no good from the day he was just a gleam in his father’s eye… Get him to the pound and kill it before you become attached. > Atm, we have managed to get him > down to third top dog in the family.

Yeah. They’re tricky. REMEMBER, he was probably a general or something in the litterbox. You’ve got to defend yourself. > With me and my wife he doesnt > growl and bite but unfortunatly its > with my kids that the dominance > issue lies.

Yeah. He’s DEAD MEAT. > Today my wife tells me he has bitten > my 12 year old son on the hand > when he tried to take something out > of the pups mouth,

GEE??? Can u magin dat? > the wound was slight and I cant tell > you all the details of what happened

Don’t worry, you ALREADY DID. > cos i’m still at work writing this and > havent been home yet.

KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR. You don’t stand a chinaman’s chance of getting him straightened out. You’ve been doing THE BEST YOU COULD. IT JUST DIDN’T WORK ON THIS CRITTER. Kill him now and get it over with. > The way I see it is that its a > dominace problem not viciousnous.

No. The way IT IS, this is YOUR STUPIDITY ISSUE. You’ve been following the wrong advice, and now you’re gonna pay. You’re graduating FOOL SCHOOL today. CONGRATS! > Hes ok with me and my wife

HA! Don’t bet on it. > but I think he sees himself as being > 3rd top dog in my family after my 2 > kids.

No. YOU see him as top dog over the two kids. YOU MADE him react like that, based on what YOU TAUGHT HIM. > I need advice on how to train my > kids to handle this pup

You’re gonna hafta teach the kids to HANG the dog. > and get him down to where he > should be in the family,

Yup. It’s gonna hafta HURT, but it’ll be worth it IF you can stomach what you’ve got to do next… > my kids back off when he growls

Make your snubbing hitch to the ceiling, and let the boys HANG the pup a few times… THAT’S the koehler CURE. And it wouldn’t be in the book UNLESS IT WORKED for millions and millions of others. > so basically my dog sees himself as > winning the situation.

Psst! Basically, your pup thinks he’s in HELL. Basically, EVERYTHING you’ve done is WRONG. But I told you that before, so it’s nothing new. You’ll just KILL this dog and get another one and PRAY he’ll put up with your abuse and DUMINANCE. > I am concerned

You should have been this concerned BEFORE you started attacking the pup. > as I wouldnt want this dog biting my > kids more seriously than he has > already.

Forget about it. HE’S GOT THE TASTE OF BLOOD. > My kids come first,

Yeah. That’s probably why you started right off DUMINATING the pup, cause some MOOREON told you to. > this pup is 16 weeks and weighs in > at nearly 50lb,

Well, start shopping for a new dog. > when hes fully grown hes going to

…GET EVEN for his lousy puppyhood. > be really big for a Dobermann

GEE!!! THAT’S WHY I DON’T HURT DOGS TO TRAIN THEM! I figured THAT out almost thirty years ago. And I’ve been trying to teach the bums here for two wonderful years. AND YOU’RE HELPING me prove my point. You’re simply a pawn in a war on people like yourself that I’m waging to STOP IDIOCY AND DOG ABUSE. > so I need to get this problem sorted > right now…

You’ve got two choices, as I see it. > Sorry for the long post Look forward > to hearing your advice…..

You can get rid of the dog today, or you can start TRAINING him today, using the FOOLPROOF, NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, methods in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com We can EVEN undo the harm you’ve already done, and I’ll be available to give you extra help if you need it. But you’ve got to forget EVERYTHING you’ve learned. Your only pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe.

Response:

Ok ppl I need some advice. The Problem: I have posted before about this pup and how aggresive/dominant he can be at times. His problem is if someone takes away something hes grabbed or stops him doing something he shouldnt, sometimes he growls and finally tonight he bit… I have the idea from talking to various ppl that when he was in the litter he was top pup and when he came into my home he still regarded himself as top dog and has acted acccordingly. What I have done and the rest of my family is to some dominance work on him, ie, ocasionally rolling him on his back and then releasing him only after he has stopped flailing, growling, trying to bite etc. When he has grabbed something he shouldnt and growls when trying to take it away from him we persist in our actions of getting the object away from him along with loads of verbal NO’s and even some shaking of the loose skin on the back of his neck, eventually we get it away from him. Most of above happened in the first few weeks of him joining our family. Atm, we have managed to get him down to third top dog in the family. With me and my wife he doesnt growl and bite but unfortunatly its with my kids that the dominance issue lies. Today my wife tells me he has bitten my 12 year old son on the hand when he tried to take something out of the pups mouth, the wound was slight and I cant tell you all the details of what happened cos i’m still at work writing this and havent been home yet. The way I see it is that its a dominace problem not viciousnous. Hes ok with me and my wife but I think he sees himself as being 3rd top dog in my family after my 2 kids. I need advice on how to train my kids to handle this pup and get him down to where he should be in the family, my kids back off when he growls so basically my dog sees himself as winning the situation. I am concerned as I wouldnt want this dog biting my kids more seriously than he has already. My kids come first, this pup is 16 weeks and weighs in at nearly 50lb, when hes fully grown hes going to be really big for a Dobermann so I need to get this problem sorted right now… Sorry for the long post Look forward to hearing your advice…..

Response:

Kitty litter mess???

admin — Tue, 07 Nov 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> Hello NotBob, > I’ll bet you can teach the cat to

http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.

Response:

>So how bout a response then Bossman… >Bob

You DID get a response. BTW – JANET is a "girl" name. BossLADY to you. Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate" see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/

Response:

Hello NotBob, I’ll bet you can teach the cat to be TIDY if you use my sound distraction and praise techniques when she starts getting too playful in the litter box. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My cat likes to fling her litter onto the floor after she poops and pees. > You know this is a DOG behavior group, right? Nonetheless, many of us have cat > experience as well. > So how bout a response then Bossman… > Bob

Response:

>My cat likes to fling her litter onto the floor after she poops and pees.

You know this is a DOG behavior group, right? Nonetheless, many of us have cat experience as well. So how bout a response then Bossman… Bob

Response:

>My cat likes to fling her litter onto the floor after she poops and pees.

You know this is a DOG behavior group, right? Nonetheless, many of us have cat experience as well. >She >also likes to track it on the floor for an average distance of 2-3 feet. Are >there any recommendations on where to get a bigger litter box, perhaps one >with >higher walls??? >Bob

A covered box should do the trick just fine, but don’t expect tracking to end because of a different box. There are a ton of mats for in front of litter boxes, to minimize tracking. A simple trip to the local pet supply store makes these products pretty obvious. Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate" see Lucy at: http://www.flyball.com/nsl/

Response:

My cat likes to fling her litter onto the floor after she poops and pees. She also likes to track it on the floor for an average distance of 2-3 feet. Are there any recommendations on where to get a bigger litter box, perhaps one with higher walls??? Bob

Response:

bad table manners

admin — Mon, 16 Oct 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

One thing that slowed down our dogs was to give them a heavy ceramic dish with straight sides, not too big in diameter either. We actually found out by chance as we changed there food bowls due to Roz getting a mouth infection that the vet said may have been caused by the plastic bowls we were using. The plastic bowls were just that "bowl" shaped whereas the new ceramic dishes are straight sided and flat bottomed. Paul. — http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paul_bousie/index.html Updated 11 October 2000!!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Put the food down and take it up, and > give it back after a moment. She may > get the idea. If it seems to stress her, > discontinue trying it. Jerry. > Thought about this but couldn’ do it, so tried a variation. > Last night, I divided her dinner into thirds. After she finished the > first part, I asked if she wanted more. She thought this was a good > idea, so gave her another third, etc. She seemed more satisfied > afterwards. Don’t know yet if it will slow her down after she gets used > to it.

Response:

>That "normal vacuum" behavior is > insecurity and anxiety, in MOST > instances… > Thought about this and think there’s a good deal in what you say. > That’s why it bothers me: it’s as if Granny doesn’t trust me to have > food when she needs it — "Better eat all I can now; I may never eat > again." > However, if it’s anxiety, it’s the only symptom she has. Eating is > about the only time she’s animated. She’s comin’ up on 16. What can I > do about it now?

Age doesn’t matter. You might try just offering her food alone, before anyone else, and try to slow her down but not through holding her back, showing her you’re guarding the dish for her. I’ve got one who likes to eat slowly, and comes to tell me to watch her plate so the others won’t take it if she wants to go outside or to the water dish. Put the food down and take it up, and give it back after a moment. She may get the idea. If it seems to stress her, discontinue trying it. Jerry.

Response:

>Put the food down and take it up, and > give it back after a moment. She may > get the idea. If it seems to stress her, > discontinue trying it. Jerry.

Thought about this but couldn’ do it, so tried a variation. Last night, I divided her dinner into thirds. After she finished the first part, I asked if she wanted more. She thought this was a good idea, so gave her another third, etc. She seemed more satisfied afterwards. Don’t know yet if it will slow her down after she gets used to it.

Response:

>Put the food down and take it up, and > give it back after a moment. She may > get the idea. If it seems to stress her, > discontinue trying it. Jerry. > Thought about this but couldn’ do it, so tried a variation. > Last night, I divided her dinner into thirds. After she finished the > first part, I asked if she wanted more. She thought this was a good > idea, so gave her another third, etc. She seemed more satisfied > afterwards. Don’t know yet if it will slow her down after she gets used > to it.

Good. That should do it. Talk calmly as she eats, and reassure here there’s plenty more where that came from… Jerry.

Response:

> Most maladjusted dogs are. Mine aren’t. That’s one of the first things > I look for in a dog I’m working with. I need to get them to relax and > TRUST. That’s why dogs wolf down their food. They’re nervous, > insecure, and mistrustful. It shows me they don’t have confidence in > their owner to provide adequately, and that they don’t trust his > leadership. I’ve seen the same behavior in people who have been > deprived of food. It’s natural, but NOT NORMAL behavior.

More stupidity from the king of idiots Before you buy.

Response:

>That "normal vacuum" behavior is > insecurity and anxiety, in MOST > instances…

Thought about this and think there’s a good deal in what you say. That’s why it bothers me: it’s as if Granny doesn’t trust me to have food when she needs it — "Better eat all I can now; I may never eat again." However, if it’s anxiety, it’s the only symptom she has. Eating is about the only time she’s animated. She’s comin’ up on 16. What can I do about it now?

Response:

Hello lyingdogDUMMY,

>please could you help me to modify my pups behaviour. She is a labrador who >is 5 months old. She has an appropriate diet but always seems to be hungry, >literally wolfing down her food without even tasting it. My vet says she is >fine but I would really like to modify her greed as it is rather embarassing >and I’m sure not good for her digestion.

It’s more important than that. > Neil, listen to your vet.

The vet isn’t a trainer. The vet is only considering the physical harmlessness of this behavior. > Labs are notorious gluttons, many dogs are, in fact.

Most maladjusted dogs are. Mine aren’t. That’s one of the first things I look for in a dog I’m working with. I need to get them to relax and TRUST. That’s why dogs wolf down their food. They’re nervous, insecure, and mistrustful. It shows me they don’t have confidence in their owner to provide adequately, and that they don’t trust his leadership. I’ve seen the same behavior in people who have been deprived of food. It’s natural, but NOT NORMAL behavior. > This behavior probably stems from some inherent need for the wolf to > devour their food quickly before a predator or another wolf in their > pack takes it away from them.

See the relationship? > Don’t worry about it.

j;~} > The dog’s digestive system works much differently than our own (dogs have a very short > intestine, for example).

It figures you’d think of your gut. That’s not my concern with the behavior. Eating like a pig is a sign of insecurity. > And your dog will probably slow down a bit as she gets older.

Wonder why??? > My own Labs would probably each eat an entire 40 pound bag of dog feed > each day, if I let them.

No doubt. Dogs eat because of STRESS, like people sometimes do. There’s not much differences in mamalian reflexive behavior, especially of the same ilk, like predators. You’re a predator. But you are intellectual enough to delude yourself. You couldn’t outwit a puppy dog, or else you wouldn’t have to jerk and choke and if you didn’t fear dogs, you wouldn’t have to hang the dogs you provoke to try to hurt you back. > But I don’t.

Yes. Good for you. > Just be sure your puppy is getting the right amount of food (listen to > your vet again) and don’t worry about her "manners."

Naturally you wouldn’t be concerned. It’s not going to matter to your way of thinking. You’re going to pound a square peg into a round hole anyway.. Don’t matter if it’s the right size to make a dowl. > Good luck with your Lab puppy, Neil!

Yes, he’d like to have more than LUCK going for him. > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman > Howie "Dogman" Lipschitz > Jumping Jack Ranch > Defiance, MO > Visitors welcome.

You’re an anonymous dog abuser. You’re petrified someone will find out your address. You don’t have any problem posting other people’s addresses and phone numbers and encourage people to harass them, do you, lyingdogSTALKER? Yours for freedom of information, Jerry "Freedom Of Information Act, Box10210 Pueblo, Colorado," Howe. lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE this new foster dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? Most of our rpdb regulars are devout koehler trainers. Here are koehler’s "solutions" for barking and housetraining, and ENDORSEMENTS of koehler’s methods by our Gang Members. Here’s some good training tips from the same source cindy moore uses.

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." Koehler on correcting the Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." Koehler on correcting the housebreaking backslider. "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him." (MORE good KOEHLER training below, AFTER lyingfrosty dahl) Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis. Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog’s behavior, NOT the dog." You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???) ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) "Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "Don’t let him do that, read cindymooreon’s web page," boob maida. "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn, lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them. And now for a little MOORE good koehler training: BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING We’ll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his mouth. But you won’t make the permanent impression unless you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don’t always come at the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the dog’s value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it. The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you’re gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you’ll have to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand. Attach a line to your dog’s collar, so your … read more »

Response:

please could you help me to modify my pups behaviour. She is a labrador who is 5 months old. She has an appropriate diet but always seems to be hungry, literally wolfing down her food without even tasting it. My vet says she is fine but I would really like to modify her greed as it is rather embarassing and I’m sure not good for her digestion.

Response:

Normal dog behavior. Your 5 month old pup is in a growing spurt. She will eat like that until she approaches her full size. If she were mine, I’d give her lots of raw meat and bones, like raw chicken. Also would add animal fat to the diet.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> please could you help me to modify my pups behaviour. She is a labrador who > is 5 months old. She has an appropriate diet but always seems to be hungry, > literally wolfing down her food without even tasting it. My vet says she is > fine but I would really like to modify her greed as it is rather embarassing > and I’m sure not good for her digestion.

Response:

Neil, listen to your vet. Labs are notorious gluttons, many dogs are, in fact. This behavior probably stems from some inherent need for the wolf to devour their food quickly before a predator or another wolf in their pack takes it away from them. Don’t worry about it. The dog’s digestive system works much differently than our own (dogs have a very short intestine, for example). And your dog will probably slow down a bit as she gets older. My own Labs would probably each eat an entire 40 pound bag of dog feed each day, if I let them. But I don’t. Just be sure your puppy is getting the right amount of food (listen to your vet again) and don’t worry about her "manners." Good luck with your Lab puppy, Neil! — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman Howie "Dogman" Lipschitz Jumping Jack Ranch Defiance, MO Visitors welcome.

Response:

My Lab is soon to be 12 yrs.old. If you find the answer to that one, let me know. I’m not much interested in changing that behavior, but if there’s a way to do it it would be worth adding to my tool box. I have a Labrador cat, too. I think she learned from the dog that most everything is edible and should be downed as quick as possible. Between the two of them my kitchen floor is completely protected from stray molecules of food. Deb* http://www.k9deb.com Cats and women will do as they please, dogs and men need to relax and get used to the idea. (R. Heinlein)

Response:

The previous posters are quite right, Neil — normal "vacuum Lab" behavior, but it bothers me, too. For ol’ Granny, I break a carrot into 3 chunks and subsitute a couple of large biscuits for a portion of her kibble. She takes a bit of time out to chomp on them. Don’t suppose she needs it, but I feel better seeing her catch her breath.

Response:

linen: > She has an appropriate diet but always seems to be hungry, >literally wolfing down her food without even tasting it.

Perfectly normal Lab behavior. Hint: don’t try free-feeding; most labs will eat all the food at once, no matter how much there is. I know one who ate 25 POUNDS of Easter candy while the family was at church…. Boy, was he sick afterwards, but even that did not cure him of his gluttony! Thank goodness he never figured out how to open the fridge…. — Ruth Mays Beautiful Downtown Cinnaminson It’s important to keep an open mind, But not so open that your brains fall out.

Response:

Hello Chris, That "normal vacuum" behavior is insecurity and anxiety, in MOST instances… and that’s one of the FIRST things I address when I observe it. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The previous posters are quite right, Neil — normal "vacuum Lab" > behavior, but it bothers me, too. For ol’ Granny, I break a carrot into > 3 chunks and subsitute a couple of large biscuits for a portion of her > kibble. She takes a bit of time out to chomp on them. Don’t suppose > she needs it, but I feel better seeing her catch her breath.

Response:

> That "normal vacuum" behavior is insecurity and anxiety

More stupidity from the mental case Before you buy.

Response:

Perfectly normal dog behavior. Humans have digestive additives in their saliva that helps break down the food we eat. Dogs instead have stronger digestive juices to break up the food. In general animals that eat plants do a lot of chewing to help break down the food to digestible components. Animals that eat meats in general don’t have to do that. Nancy

Response:

How do I make 2 dogs friends?

admin — Mon, 07 Aug 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hey you animal lovers! Here is my problem: I just moved and I have a Jack Russell Terrier. If you are familiar with this Terrier, you know that this dog WILL NOT back down to ANYTHING! Anyway, there is a neighborhood dog, which is a chow mixed with some other breed??? They hate each other, it has been 2 mos. since I have had him, we are building a fence. Just in case something would happen that this chow would get into our yard, I want to make them friends! The chow is a really sweet dog, but he HATES my little Cheyenne!! HELP!! HOW DO I DO THIS????? Thank ya’ll for the advise, I will try everything that I can! ) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Ummm, chows are notorious for not being very friendly. (Sorry to anybody who might have a chow.) I would suggest that you not try to get these two dogs to be friends. Build that fence, and do it in a hurry. Some dogs are just not friendly to other dogs. I wouldn’t take the chance if it were me. JMHO. Then you can leave it up to them if they can make friends through the fence. Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hey you animal lovers! > Here is my problem: > I just moved and I have a Jack Russell Terrier. If you are familiar > with this Terrier, you know that this dog WILL NOT back down to > ANYTHING! Anyway, there is a neighborhood dog, which is a chow mixed > with some other breed??? They hate each other, it has been 2 mos. > since I have had him, we are building a fence. Just in case something > would happen that this chow would get into our yard, I want to make > them friends! The chow is a really sweet dog, but he HATES my little > Cheyenne!! HELP!! > HOW DO I DO THIS????? > Thank ya’ll for the advise, I will try everything that I can! > ) > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi Julie, Have you asked this question in the dog behavior group too? (Just wondering). — ~Just Me~ Please (removeyourshoes) before replying. "If you want the best seat in the house, you gotta move the cat"! in message . > Hey you animal lovers! > Here is my problem: > I just moved and I have a Jack Russell Terrier. If you are familiar > with this Terrier, you know that this dog WILL NOT back down to > ANYTHING! Anyway, there is a neighborhood dog,

which is a chow mixed > with some other breed??? They hate each other, it has been 2 mos. > since I have had him, we are building a fence.

Just in case something > would happen that this chow would get into our

yard, I want to make > them friends! The chow is a really sweet dog,

but he HATES my little > Cheyenne!! HELP!! > HOW DO I DO THIS????? > Thank ya’ll for the advise, I will try

everything that I can! > ) > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The

Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and

participate in Usenet – Free! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

which is a chow mixed > with some other breed??? They hate each other, it has been 2 mos. > since I have had him, we are building a fence.

Just in case something > would happen that this chow would get into our

yard, I want to make > them friends! The chow is a really sweet dog,

but he HATES my little > Cheyenne!! HELP!! > HOW DO I DO THIS????? > Thank ya’ll for the advise, I will try

everything that I can! > ) > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The

Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and

participate in Usenet – Free! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

which is a chow mixed > with some other breed??? They hate each other, it has been 2 mos. > since I have had him, we are building a fence.

Just in case something > would happen that this chow would get into our

yard, I want to make > them friends! The chow is a really sweet dog,

but he HATES my little > Cheyenne!! HELP!! > HOW DO I DO THIS????? > Thank ya’ll for the advise, I will try

everything that I can! > ) > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The

Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and

participate in Usenet – Free! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –