Question:

(Tricia9999) writes: >Anyone ever hear of mail fraud? Prison terms and all….

Yes indeedee. She needs to contact the Attorney General in the jurisdiction the business operates in and get the ball rolling. FTC may also be interested Bob Maida Dog Training/Problem Counseling since 1969 Herndon, Virginia    Do make your visit here pleasant. Filter out the Trolls, Troublemakers, and Malcontents. If you are not one of the above, that line should not have offended you.

Response:

>To see for myself the reality of a device for which >near-fantastic claims are made, whose function as claimed >inconsistent with the laws of physics.

Amy, Trip and I are so disappointed, but not surprised, that the Doggy do squat hasn’t arrived.  And we even have a cat that might be suitable for you too. That is if I don’t make her one of mine.   I do believe I’m on my way to being "crazy old cat lady" as well as "mean old German shepherd lady." Beth

Response:

amy must by my only customer, as I haven’t been busted yet… j;~}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone ever hear of mail fraud? Prison terms and all….

Response:

Hello karibear,

> But babycakes, if it works,

Doggy Do Right (and KITTY WILL TOO) http://ww.doggydoright.com works as I say it does, and I expect bye and bye, almost everyone is going to buy one. It’s a good thing to have. It makes dogs COMFORTABLE and HAPPY. It cures their temperment and behavior problems. It stops neighborhood cats from fighting and spraying. > and I’m sure Amy will tell us all if it does,

Sure she will. I know I wasn’t born yesterday. Your pal amy has a bad record of LYING. That’s HOWE she’s EARNED the lying title in front of her name. REMEMBER? She’s ALREADY stuck her neck out and "PROVED" that Doggy Do Right (and KITTY WILL TOO) cannot be heard by dogs at any distance at all. She’s going to look pretty stupid coming out and saying it does anything at all beneficial. And I’ll be happy to refund her money at any time in the future, so long as she does not tamper with the box. > I might buy one, doncha know.

No doubt you will. If you can borrow the money from someone. > Prospective customer, and all that.

I’ll be eternally grateful… I mean it. I already am! > The way you _treat_ your one and only customer, though, > I dunno. I’m not really a masochist.

Right. Masochist’s enjoy getting beat with sticks. Sadists enjoy beating them with sticks and twisting body parts to inflict pain to satisfy their demented psyche’s. What’s our excuse for HURTING DOGS? Hmm? > And did you inform those ‘other’ customers who had to wait > that delivery would be delayed?

Nope. > You know, comply with the law?

Call the attorney general. > Or were you speaking generically, as in people often have to > wait for an item that is backordered?

Sometimes I’m backordered. Sometimes there are other reasons why delivery may take time. Sometimes both at once. > Happens all the time,

I’m glad you’re so understanding. > but  those real companies are careful to inform their > ustomers promptly and usually give them the option of > cancelling if they don’t want to wait.

If she don’t want to wait, she’s out of luck. She can NOT find one elsewhere. There has been no charges or payment made. There is no charge for cancelling. I presume she wants her order. It’s being handled by the Elves.

Response:

> says… >> In my experience with these types of scams is that the >> next step will be an excuse or made up reason while he >> won’t sell it to this person.

Why would I not sell to ANY person? >> It’s just about to happen watch!

If I was not going to sell to her I would have said so from the begining. >> dw >Hello dw, >You run your yap about the WRONG ISSUES: > [snip snip] > …or the ever popular "yell about something else and they’ll > forget the question" > Mike

Hello mike, There has been no question that we have been backordered and that there is a usually a waiting period of about one month. Her order is being processed, and she has not been charged. Besides, the status of her order is none of your business and has no bearing on issues here. This is SUPPOSED TO BE dog behavior. Furthermore, in case you are interested in placing an order, I do not charge anybody until their order has been shipped. And, there is a 25% discount for shelter and rescue people. And Doggy Do Right (and KITTY WILL TOO) http://www.doggydoright.com is 100% money back satisfaction guaranteed FOREVER, and has a two year  FREE repair/replacement warranty. And BIOSOUND Scientific pays for return shipping. So, what’s the gripe, mikey? Other people have had to wait longer. Good things are worth waiting for. Aren’t they, mikey?

Response:

Anyone ever hear of mail fraud? Prison terms and all….

Response:

Amy Dahl writes: >Two months have now passed since my order >for Jerry Howe’s "Doggy Do Right" device was >placed and acknowledged.

this very first "Doggy Do Right" ever ordered. FRED HASSEN (702) 877-4581 (www.fredhassen.com) "SIT  MEANS SIT" Internet obedience talkshow can be found at: http://www.fredhassen.com Trainer/Owner–1999 N.A.P.D.(Open) National Champion "Obedience" 1999 N.A.P.D. (Open) National Champion "Protection" All-time high obedience score record holder for N.A.P.D. competitions Monthly articles appear in Dog Sports Magazine www.dogsports.com Monthly column appears at www.tritronics.com/pvo/p_ia_01.html For Discussion board see: www.tritronics.com/pvo/p_dg_01.html  

Response:

says… > In my experience with these types of scams is that the next step >will be an > excuse or made up reason while he won’t sell it to this person. > It’s just about to happen watch! > dw >Hello dw, >You run your yap about the WRONG ISSUES:

[snip snip] …or the ever popular "yell about something else and they’ll forget the question" Mike

Response:

But babycakes, if it works, and I’m sure Amy will tell us all if it does, I might buy one, doncha know. Prospective customer, and all that. The way you _treat_ your one and only customer, though, I dunno. I’m not really a masochist. And did you inform those ‘other’ customers who had to wait that delivery would be delayed? You know, comply with the law? Or were you speaking generically, as in people often have to wait for an item that is backordered? Happens all the time, but those real companies are careful to inform their customers promptly and usually give them the option of cancelling if they don’t want to wait. >What business is it of YOURS? >She’s not the first person to have to wait for their order to be >filled. j;~}

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

> In my experience with these types of scams is that the next step will be an > excuse or made up reason while he won’t sell it to this person. > It’s just about to happen watch! > dw

Hello dw, You run your yap about the WRONG ISSUES: > You’re right.  I never noticed before that you inserted the > word "slap" into the article,

I took it out to be FAIR. It was an oversight not initialing the parenthesis. > inside supposedly quoted material, without indicating that it > was your addition.

I suppose you’ve got a different definition. Let’s hear it… This ought to be excellent… > You are even sleazier than I thought.

You BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to make them retrieve, and YOU call ME sleazy? Me? I don’t HURT DOGS and LIE. YOU do. You ABUSE DOGS. And you LIE. Here’s PROOF. > I would never advise anyone to slap a dog.

YOU DO. You LIE. Here’s PROOF. ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> >  I would never slap a dog.

YOU DO, YOU LIE, HERE’S PROOF. >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less

dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply,>>>" > I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, > where slapping a dog is anything but destructive.

YOU LIE. HERE’S PROOF. >> If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say

"No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>> >> and pinch its ear if a dummy or bird is ever dropped. While

force-fetching is now complete, training has become more varied and interesting and we are sure you will want to continue.>>> HOWE does varying HOWE you are HURTING the dog make it more INTERESTING? >> Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >> Pinehurst, NC 28370    (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Here’s the full text. Got Milk? http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Aren’t those AMY DAHL’S OWN WORDS??? But SHE don’t DO THAT??? Is EVERYBODY going to ignore the character of these people who lie and cover up for each other? Here’s HOWE they get that happy excited to work look on the dogs… >> Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When

performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> ANY QUESTIONS? Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe

Response:

In my experience with these types of scams is that the next step will be an excuse or made up reason while he won’t sell it to this person. It’s just about to happen watch! dw – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > And all this ranting and frothing at the mouth has what to do > with the fact that you have failed utterly to provide your > product as advertised? Do you think if you screech lound enough > and long enough no one will notice you have not fulfilled your > contract to provide a paying customer with the product? No more > sense than a turnip. > Baloney, anyone? > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

> Why did you order anything?  

To see for myself the reality of a device for which near-fantastic claims are made, whose function as claimed inconsistent with the laws of physics. Why don’t you just go beat on your dog for awhile like your web pages > says to do.

Read for comprehension.  No, never mind, you’re probably not capable of comprehending the great enjoyment a hunting retriever gets out of its work, after overcoming the little hurdle of force fetching. — Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

> What business is it of YOURS?

It’s a topic of discussion in this newsgroup, silly boy. Just because you don’t want us to talk about something, doesn’t mean you can stop of from talking about it. > She’s not the first person to have to wait for their order to be > filled. j;~}

So, did you illegally neglect to notify them (in accordance with the law) as well? –Terri & Harlan — At least, I have integrity, and admission of my insanity, is proof of my credibility. –Jerry "Two Minutes of Abuse" Howe 11/4/99   http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/concerns.html Before you buy.

Response:

The ‘issue’ is that you’ve been trying to peddle the DDR for eons on this newsgroup, and now you finally have _one_ customer. A _paying_ customer, no less. And YOU can’t deliver. Period. _Your_ issue is that you are trying to _evade_ reality, and you are failing miserably. >It’s NOT YOUR BUSINESS… You are only trying to obscure the >issues…

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

So what’s your real excuse for not providing the DDR in a timely manner in accordance with your own advertising? There isn’t one, is there. It’s just a black box that plugs in and does nothing whatsoever. Face it, babycakes. You are an incompetent nincompoop. >ANY QUESTIONS?

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

What business is it of YOURS? She’s not the first person to have to wait for their order to be filled. j;~}

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> And all this ranting and frothing at the mouth has what to do > with the fact that you have failed utterly to provide your > product as advertised? Do you think if you screech lound enough > and long enough no one will notice you have not fulfilled your > contract to provide a paying customer with the product? No more > sense than a turnip. > Baloney, anyone? > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

> So what’s your real excuse for not providing the DDR in a timely > manner in accordance with your own advertising? There isn’t one, > is there. It’s just a black box that plugs in and does nothing > whatsoever. > Face it, babycakes. You are an incompetent nincompoop.

It’s NOT YOUR BUSINESS… You are only trying to obscure the issues… But THIS IS what you are trying to obscure:

> You’re right.  I never noticed before that you inserted the > word "slap" into the article,

I took it out to be FAIR. It was an oversight not initialing the parenthesis. > inside supposedly quoted material, without indicating that it > was your addition.

I suppose you’ve got a different definition. Let’s hear it… This ought to be excellent… > You are even sleazier than I thought.

You BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to make them retrieve, and YOU call ME sleazy? Me? I don’t HURT DOGS and LIE. YOU do. You ABUSE DOGS. And you LIE. Here’s PROOF. > I would never advise anyone to slap a dog.

YOU DO. You LIE. Here’s PROOF. ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> >  I would never slap a dog.

YOU DO, YOU LIE, HERE’S PROOF. >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less

dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply,>>>" > I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, > where slapping a dog is anything but destructive.

YOU LIE. HERE’S PROOF. >> If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say

"No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>> >> and pinch its ear if a dummy or bird is ever dropped. While

force-fetching is now complete, training has become more varied and interesting and we are sure you will want to continue.>>> HOWE does varying HOWE you are HURTING the dog make it more INTERESTING? >> Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >> Pinehurst, NC 28370    (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Here’s the full text. Got Milk? http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Aren’t those AMY DAHL’S OWN WORDS??? But SHE don’t DO THAT??? Is EVERYBODY going to ignore the character of these people who lie and cover up for each other? Here’s HOWE they get that happy excited to work look on the dogs… >> Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When

performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> ANY QUESTIONS? Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe

Response:

And all this ranting and frothing at the mouth has what to do with the fact that you have failed utterly to provide your product as advertised? Do you think if you screech lound enough and long enough no one will notice you have not fulfilled your contract to provide a paying customer with the product? No more sense than a turnip. Baloney, anyone? * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Why did you order anything?  Why don’t you just go beat on your dog for awhile like your web pages says to do. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Two months have now passed since my order for Jerry > Howe’s "Doggy Do Right" device was placed and acknowledged. > The website indicates a 30-day delivery time, and, as > discussed here a month ago, Federal law prescribes that > vendors ship within 30 days, indicate a longer ship time > in their advertising, or notify the customer with the > reasons for failure or delay in shipping, giving the > customer the opportunity to wait or to withdraw the > order. > None of these things has happened.  In particular, I have > received no communication whatsoever from the vendor. > Unprofessional at best. > I do not know whether my credit card has been charged. > Usually by this time of the month my statement has arrived, > but this month it has not. > If it arrives, I’ll post here with the information, and of > course, with the findings of my tests on it. > — > Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

Hello CB, I’ve been trying to educate these good people for over one year, that it is NOT NECESSARY to HURT DOGS to train them… COMPETENT DOG TRAINERS do not hurt dogs. Our group chases competent trainers away, so that they will be able to carry on without comparison, criticism, or embarrassment… TEACH THEM that WE DO NOT NEED trainers who TELL US TO HURT DOGS. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Jerry, > For those of us that believe you what can be done about this aweful > behaviour? > Does anybody know HOWE a dog sounds when he’s > SQUEALING because his ears or toes are being pinched and > twisted? > Cindy moore does, amy dahl does. Lots of our rpdb regulars do. Ask > them. > The’ll tell you she doesn’t twist? > She’ll tell you it doesn’t hurt? Why do it then? It HURTS. They don’t > care. > The’ll tell you that FEAR, FORCE, AND PUNISHMENT is > necessary for ALL "ADVANCED TRAINING", to enhance the > bond between "trainer" and dog and achieve the higher aspects > of obedience through TWISTING and PINCHING EARS and > TOES, and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS… > Let’s hear cindy moore and amy dahl and pals SQUEAL for a change. > Ask them why they HURT dogs and call that training? Ask cindy moore > why she WON’T answer these questions like her pal > lyingfrostydahly did below, when she EARNED HER LYING > TITLE??? > Here’s what our respected friend and rpdb contributor amy dahl > has to say about ear and toe pinching and twisting and > BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS. > TELL US YOU DON’T DO THE SAME THINGS, cindymoron…: > Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: > >>> I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. > >>> I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. > >>> I would never slap a dog. > >>> I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where > slapping a dog is anything but destructive. > ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper > wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> > >>>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less > tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more > sharply,>>>" > >>> If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say > "No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear > chuck the dog under the chin > with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>>" > What’s THAT? > >> > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html > >> > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? > Aren’t those YOUR OWN WORDS??? But YOU don’t DO THAT??? > People, this is HOWE consistency works, and most particularly > well with dogs, because here, the same methods are being used > to INFLUENCE YOU, and YOU certainly are more intellectually > capable of solving problems and have greater critical thinking > skills than your dogs…, and these methods work on YOU> > >>> That article, reprinted from The Retriever Journal, is > >>> the words of my husband John and myself. > Meaning "We’ll share the credit, making it more credible??? Or > we’ll share the blame, to mitigate our own individual > responsibility and guilt…" YOU decide, it’s not my business > where the blame falls. > >>> For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses > >>> not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting > >>> ears," > From the text">>>" > ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of > as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> > >>>"but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to > escaping the ear pinch>>> > >>>You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your > thumb;>>> > >>> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against > that>>> > >>> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that > resisting your will fades in importance.>>> > >>>Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching > its ear.>>> > >>> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. > Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, > even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will > give in>>>" > Right… Didn’t lyingfrostydahly just deny all of that? There’s > more… That was just a little about ear pinching, and no there > was NO MENTION of twisting ears… cindy moore has all that > information for you… > Does it really matter? The semantics of whether we’re twisting > or pinching or slapping or hitting or correcting or nicking instead > of BURNING??? > The only terminology that doesn’t have any NEAT euphemisms > to take the CURSE off what our respected "trainers" actually > MEAN (see definitions of punishment thread), is HANGING to > REHABILITATE the dog, as ALL of our Koehler fans MUST > endorse. Also notice the use of "it" for dog and "the" for him or > YOUR DOG. > That’s not coincidental, it’s all part of the psychologically and > very cleverly designed DESENSITIZATION and > MISINFORMATION necessary to REDUCE a good person > to ACCEPT and DO HORRIBLE THINGS to dogs and TRYING > to call ABUSE training. > These are the subtle differences between being an expert dog > trainer and some morally bankrupt vicious rotten abusive cretin > that goes to jail for abusing dogs…  But don’t lose interest now > folks, there’s more… > >>> NO mention whatsoever of dogs’ toes in any context, > >>> and NO mention of "beating" dogs. > RIGHT… > Perhaps cindymoron would be good enough to teach us more > about the toe twist? We’ll ask her to address the toe pinch. > lyingfrostydahly: ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. > You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, > less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them > more sharply.>>> > >>> With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." > Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the > stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. > >>>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,>>>" > Wouldn’t you think that was despicable enough even just writing > that, let alone risk suffering the embarrassment of not only > having that attributed to yourself, but in fact denying your best > work and PROVING YOURSELF A SHAMELESS LIAR AND > ADVOCATE OF DOG ABUSE??? But it goes on… > >>> chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand > while saying "No!">>> > >>>If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say > "No! Hold!"  use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear > and place the dummy in its mouth.>>> > >>> If it doesn’t make rapid progress, you can increase the > pressure by requiring it to pick up the dropped dummy (stay on > the ear until it does).>>> > >>>(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has > decided it isn’t worth it).>>> pinch its ear and say, "fetch,">>> > Here we have consistency and a plea for reason, directly in > contradiction to the blackman and white facts signed and > published by our expert trainer…  Accordingly, the consistency > of constant repetitions of your requests for understanding and > compliance from your dogs, dictates that YOU WILL GET IT. > So long as you are consistent and keep repeating the exact > same scenario, no matter what… Including and especially when > you calculatedly and intentionally deny the truth and make your > requests seem reasonable, THEY EXPECT YOU TO BELIEVE > that such behavior is NORMAL. > > In our training we do not do any of these things, nor do we > > advocate them to others. > See what I mean? Character, morals, ethics, integrity, human > decency? 0.000%. Not a shred. She might have scored 0.001 > had she NOT LIED ABOUT IT. > >>>"Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When > performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the > fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been > carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each > dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> > This is HOWE they get that happy excited working attitude that > they all talk about… That’s their criteria for making their dogs > happy, willing team mates…They BEAT IT INTO THE DOG. > > Jerry Howe has once again demonstrated his lack of > > reading comprehension. > Right. Perhaps that’s because I get a little disturbed with all of > the abuse, and I begin reading more into it than what the author > intended???… > >>>"Slip an empty shotshell into your pocket before the next > session. As always, begin with some review. Then sit the dog. > Take hold of its buckle collar and ear as follows. Slide the last > three fingers of your left hand towards the dog’s head under the > collar, and curl them over the collar to grasp it firmly. With your > thumb and index finger, pull the dog’s left ear back over the > collar (inside up) and hold it there gently. The "ear pinch" is > administered by pressing with your thumbnail at the boundary > between hair and bare skin (don’t pinch yet). Depending on the > size and strength of your hands, you may want to press against > the collar or against your index finger.>>> > >>>You want it to get the idea that the ear-pinch means,>>> If > the dog clenches its mouth shut, you may be in for another > extended session. Keep pinching and press the dummy harder > against the dog’s lips.>>> > >>>Repeat "fetch." Again, keep your voice calm. If several > minutes pass and>>> You don’t want the dog to think that it is > "beating the pinch" Any time it is slow, pinch!>>>

… read more »

Response:

Hi Jerry, For those of us that believe you what can be done about this aweful behaviour? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Does anybody know HOWE a dog sounds when he’s > SQUEALING because his ears or toes are being pinched and > twisted? > Cindy moore does, amy dahl does. Lots of our rpdb regulars do. Ask > them. > The’ll tell you she doesn’t twist? > She’ll tell you it doesn’t hurt? Why do it then? It HURTS. They don’t > care. > The’ll tell you that FEAR, FORCE, AND PUNISHMENT is > necessary for ALL "ADVANCED TRAINING", to enhance the > bond between "trainer" and dog and achieve the higher aspects > of obedience through TWISTING and PINCHING EARS and > TOES, and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS… > Let’s hear cindy moore and amy dahl and pals SQUEAL for a change. > Ask them why they HURT dogs and call that training? Ask cindy moore > why she WON’T answer these questions like her pal > lyingfrostydahly did below, when she EARNED HER LYING > TITLE??? > Here’s what our respected friend and rpdb contributor amy dahl > has to say about ear and toe pinching and twisting and > BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS. > TELL US YOU DON’T DO THE SAME THINGS, cindymoron…: > Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: >>> I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. >>> I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. >>> I would never slap a dog. >>> I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where >>> > slapping a dog is anything but destructive. > ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper > wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> >>>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less > tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more > sharply,>>>" >>> If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say > "No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear > chuck the dog under the chin > with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>>" > What’s THAT? >> > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html >> > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? > Aren’t those YOUR OWN WORDS??? But YOU don’t DO THAT??? > People, this is HOWE consistency works, and most particularly > well with dogs, because here, the same methods are being used > to INFLUENCE YOU, and YOU certainly are more intellectually > capable of solving problems and have greater critical thinking > skills than your dogs…, and these methods work on YOU> >>> That article, reprinted from The Retriever Journal, is >>> the words of my husband John and myself. > Meaning "We’ll share the credit, making it more credible??? Or > we’ll share the blame, to mitigate our own individual > responsibility and guilt…" YOU decide, it’s not my business > where the blame falls. >>> For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses >>> not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting >>> ears," > From the text">>>" > ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of > as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> >>>"but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to > escaping the ear pinch>>> >>>You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your > thumb;>>> >>> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against > that>>> >>> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that > resisting your will fades in importance.>>> >>>Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching > its ear.>>> >>> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. > Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, > even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will > give in>>>" > Right… Didn’t lyingfrostydahly just deny all of that? There’s > more… That was just a little about ear pinching, and no there > was NO MENTION of twisting ears… cindy moore has all that > information for you… > Does it really matter? The semantics of whether we’re twisting > or pinching or slapping or hitting or correcting or nicking instead > of BURNING??? > The only terminology that doesn’t have any NEAT euphemisms > to take the CURSE off what our respected "trainers" actually > MEAN (see definitions of punishment thread), is HANGING to > REHABILITATE the dog, as ALL of our Koehler fans MUST > endorse. Also notice the use of "it" for dog and "the" for him or > YOUR DOG. > That’s not coincidental, it’s all part of the psychologically and > very cleverly designed DESENSITIZATION and > MISINFORMATION necessary to REDUCE a good person > to ACCEPT and DO HORRIBLE THINGS to dogs and TRYING > to call ABUSE training. > These are the subtle differences between being an expert dog > trainer and some morally bankrupt vicious rotten abusive cretin > that goes to jail for abusing dogs…  But don’t lose interest now > folks, there’s more… >>> NO mention whatsoever of dogs’ toes in any context, >>> and NO mention of "beating" dogs. > RIGHT… > Perhaps cindymoron would be good enough to teach us more > about the toe twist? We’ll ask her to address the toe pinch. > lyingfrostydahly: ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. > You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, > less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them > more sharply.>>> >>> With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." > Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the > stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. >>>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,>>>" > Wouldn’t you think that was despicable enough even just writing > that, let alone risk suffering the embarrassment of not only > having that attributed to yourself, but in fact denying your best > work and PROVING YOURSELF A SHAMELESS LIAR AND > ADVOCATE OF DOG ABUSE??? But it goes on… >>> chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand > while saying "No!">>> >>>If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say > "No! Hold!"  use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear > and place the dummy in its mouth.>>> >>> If it doesn’t make rapid progress, you can increase the > pressure by requiring it to pick up the dropped dummy (stay on > the ear until it does).>>> >>>(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has > decided it isn’t worth it).>>> pinch its ear and say, "fetch,">>> > Here we have consistency and a plea for reason, directly in > contradiction to the blackman and white facts signed and > published by our expert trainer…  Accordingly, the consistency > of constant repetitions of your requests for understanding and > compliance from your dogs, dictates that YOU WILL GET IT. > So long as you are consistent and keep repeating the exact > same scenario, no matter what… Including and especially when > you calculatedly and intentionally deny the truth and make your > requests seem reasonable, THEY EXPECT YOU TO BELIEVE > that such behavior is NORMAL. > In our training we do not do any of these things, nor do we > advocate them to others. > See what I mean? Character, morals, ethics, integrity, human > decency? 0.000%. Not a shred. She might have scored 0.001 > had she NOT LIED ABOUT IT. >>>"Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When > performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the > fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been > carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each > dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> > This is HOWE they get that happy excited working attitude that > they all talk about… That’s their criteria for making their dogs > happy, willing team mates…They BEAT IT INTO THE DOG. > Jerry Howe has once again demonstrated his lack of > reading comprehension. > Right. Perhaps that’s because I get a little disturbed with all of > the abuse, and I begin reading more into it than what the author > intended???… >>>"Slip an empty shotshell into your pocket before the next > session. As always, begin with some review. Then sit the dog. > Take hold of its buckle collar and ear as follows. Slide the last > three fingers of your left hand towards the dog’s head under the > collar, and curl them over the collar to grasp it firmly. With your > thumb and index finger, pull the dog’s left ear back over the > collar (inside up) and hold it there gently. The "ear pinch" is > administered by pressing with your thumbnail at the boundary > between hair and bare skin (don’t pinch yet). Depending on the > size and strength of your hands, you may want to press against > the collar or against your index finger.>>> >>>You want it to get the idea that the ear-pinch means,>>> If > the dog clenches its mouth shut, you may be in for another > extended session. Keep pinching and press the dummy harder > against the dog’s lips.>>> >>>Repeat "fetch." Again, keep your voice calm. If several > minutes pass and>>> You don’t want the dog to think that it is > "beating the pinch" Any time it is slow, pinch!>>> As mentioned > previously, it is important not to establish a pattern of struggling > with the dog physically. If you cannot physically restrain the dog, > increasing the pressure may do the trick.>>> Be sure you are in > position with your hold on collar and ear every time you give the > command,">>> > Here’s a couple MORE quotes from the links above, from our > own respected Amy Dahl’s published text: >>>"it transfers much of the momentum-producing power of the > ear pinch to the stick, thus providing a basis for force-on-back. > you want to make the dog think that by going fast it can avoid > the stick. >>> >>> As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. > When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally > reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished>>> > No, YOU’RE FINISHED. You AND YOUR PALS. >>> This is continued resistance to your increasing

… read more »

Response:

Does anybody know HOWE a dog sounds when he’s SQUEALING because his ears or toes are being pinched and twisted? Cindy moore does, amy dahl does. Lots of our rpdb regulars do. Ask them. The’ll tell you she doesn’t twist? She’ll tell you it doesn’t hurt? Why do it then? It HURTS. They don’t care. The’ll tell you that FEAR, FORCE, AND PUNISHMENT is necessary for ALL "ADVANCED TRAINING", to enhance the bond between "trainer" and dog and achieve the higher aspects of obedience through TWISTING and PINCHING EARS and TOES, and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS… Let’s hear cindy moore and amy dahl and pals SQUEAL for a change. Ask them why they HURT dogs and call that training? Ask cindy moore why she WON’T answer these questions like her pal lyingfrostydahly did below, when she EARNED HER LYING TITLE??? Here’s what our respected friend and rpdb contributor amy dahl has to say about ear and toe pinching and twisting and BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS. TELL US YOU DON’T DO THE SAME THINGS, cindymoron…: Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: >> I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. >> I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. >> I would never slap a dog. >> I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where >>>

slapping a dog is anything but destructive. ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less

tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply,>>>" >> If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say

"No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>>" What’s THAT? > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html???

Aren’t those YOUR OWN WORDS??? But YOU don’t DO THAT??? People, this is HOWE consistency works, and most particularly well with dogs, because here, the same methods are being used to INFLUENCE YOU, and YOU certainly are more intellectually capable of solving problems and have greater critical thinking skills than your dogs…, and these methods work on YOU> >> That article, reprinted from The Retriever Journal, is >> the words of my husband John and myself.

Meaning "We’ll share the credit, making it more credible??? Or we’ll share the blame, to mitigate our own individual responsibility and guilt…" YOU decide, it’s not my business where the blame falls. >> For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses >> not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting >> ears,"

From the text">>>" ">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> >>"but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to

escaping the ear pinch>>> >>You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your

thumb;>>> >> even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against

that>>> >> Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that

resisting your will fades in importance.>>> >>Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching

its ear.>>> >> if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in>>>" Right… Didn’t lyingfrostydahly just deny all of that? There’s more… That was just a little about ear pinching, and no there was NO MENTION of twisting ears… cindy moore has all that information for you… Does it really matter? The semantics of whether we’re twisting or pinching or slapping or hitting or correcting or nicking instead of BURNING??? The only terminology that doesn’t have any NEAT euphemisms to take the CURSE off what our respected "trainers" actually MEAN (see definitions of punishment thread), is HANGING to REHABILITATE the dog, as ALL of our Koehler fans MUST endorse. Also notice the use of "it" for dog and "the" for him or YOUR DOG. That’s not coincidental, it’s all part of the psychologically and very cleverly designed DESENSITIZATION and MISINFORMATION necessary to REDUCE a good person to ACCEPT and DO HORRIBLE THINGS to dogs and TRYING to call ABUSE training. These are the subtle differences between being an expert dog trainer and some morally bankrupt vicious rotten abusive cretin that goes to jail for abusing dogs…  But don’t lose interest now folks, there’s more… >> NO mention whatsoever of dogs’ toes in any context, >> and NO mention of "beating" dogs.

RIGHT… Perhaps cindymoron would be good enough to teach us more about the toe twist? We’ll ask her to address the toe pinch. lyingfrostydahly: ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply.>>> >> With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch."

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,>>>"

Wouldn’t you think that was despicable enough even just writing that, let alone risk suffering the embarrassment of not only having that attributed to yourself, but in fact denying your best work and PROVING YOURSELF A SHAMELESS LIAR AND ADVOCATE OF DOG ABUSE??? But it goes on… >> chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand

while saying "No!">>> >>If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say

"No! Hold!"  use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear and place the dummy in its mouth.>>> >> If it doesn’t make rapid progress, you can increase the

pressure by requiring it to pick up the dropped dummy (stay on the ear until it does).>>> >>(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has

decided it isn’t worth it).>>> pinch its ear and say, "fetch,">>> Here we have consistency and a plea for reason, directly in contradiction to the blackman and white facts signed and published by our expert trainer…  Accordingly, the consistency of constant repetitions of your requests for understanding and compliance from your dogs, dictates that YOU WILL GET IT. So long as you are consistent and keep repeating the exact same scenario, no matter what… Including and especially when you calculatedly and intentionally deny the truth and make your requests seem reasonable, THEY EXPECT YOU TO BELIEVE that such behavior is NORMAL. > In our training we do not do any of these things, nor do we > advocate them to others.

See what I mean? Character, morals, ethics, integrity, human decency? 0.000%. Not a shred. She might have scored 0.001 had she NOT LIED ABOUT IT. >>"Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When

performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> This is HOWE they get that happy excited working attitude that they all talk about… That’s their criteria for making their dogs happy, willing team mates…They BEAT IT INTO THE DOG. > Jerry Howe has once again demonstrated his lack of > reading comprehension.

Right. Perhaps that’s because I get a little disturbed with all of the abuse, and I begin reading more into it than what the author intended???… >>"Slip an empty shotshell into your pocket before the next

session. As always, begin with some review. Then sit the dog. Take hold of its buckle collar and ear as follows. Slide the last three fingers of your left hand towards the dog’s head under the collar, and curl them over the collar to grasp it firmly. With your thumb and index finger, pull the dog’s left ear back over the collar (inside up) and hold it there gently. The "ear pinch" is administered by pressing with your thumbnail at the boundary between hair and bare skin (don’t pinch yet). Depending on the size and strength of your hands, you may want to press against the collar or against your index finger.>>> >>You want it to get the idea that the ear-pinch means,>>> If

the dog clenches its mouth shut, you may be in for another extended session. Keep pinching and press the dummy harder against the dog’s lips.>>> >>Repeat "fetch." Again, keep your voice calm. If several

minutes pass and>>> You don’t want the dog to think that it is "beating the pinch" Any time it is slow, pinch!>>> As mentioned previously, it is important not to establish a pattern of struggling with the dog physically. If you cannot physically restrain the dog, increasing the pressure may do the trick.>>> Be sure you are in position with your hold on collar and ear every time you give the command,">>> Here’s a couple MORE quotes from the links above, from our own respected Amy Dahl’s published text: >>"it transfers much of the momentum-producing power of the

ear pinch to the stick, thus providing a basis for force-on-back. you want to make the dog think that by going fast it can avoid the stick. >>> >> As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished>>> No, YOU’RE FINISHED. You AND YOUR PALS. >> This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,

and the job is not done until it is overcome. we do not recommend that inexperienced trainers use this heavy-handed approach.>>> >> Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >> Pinehurst, NC 28370

Lets move on, and get this past us. This should be totally ignored, and everyone can forget all about it, like it doesn’t happen… That’s what these people are trying to get you to believe, and that’s what all the commotion is about… Please do not quote … read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two months have now passed since my order for Jerry > Howe’s "Doggy Do Right" device was placed and acknowledged. > The website indicates a 30-day delivery time, and, as > discussed here a month ago, Federal law prescribes that > vendors ship within 30 days, indicate a longer ship time > in their advertising, or notify the customer with the > reasons for failure or delay in shipping, giving the > customer the opportunity to wait or to withdraw the > order. > None of these things has happened.  In particular, I have > received no communication whatsoever from the vendor. > Unprofessional at best. > Why are none of us surprised? > — > Toni > www.irish-wolfhounds.com > I/we recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe > should be ignored as a crank and waste of time > Killfile the jerk!

Why are none of us NOT surprised at your LIES about HURTING DOGS to train them? I recommend that all rpdb readers who have a disclaimer about Jerry Howe, BE WATCHED. Jerry Howe does NOT HURT dogs to train them. Those I accuse of ABUSING DOGS, tell you I hurt them. Why are they so FREAKED OUT? Because I am EXPOSING them. WHERE THERE’S SMOKE, THERE’S FIRE…  j;~}

> You’re right.  I never noticed before that you inserted the > word "slap" into the article, inside supposedly quoted > material, without indicating that it was your addition. > You are even sleazier than I thought.

Me? I don’t HURT DOGS and LIE. YOU do. You ABUSE DOGS. And you LIE. Here’s PROOF. > I would never advise anyone to slap a dog.

YOU DO. You LIE. Here’s PROOF. ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.>>> >  I would never slap a dog.

YOU DO, YOU LIE, HERE’S PROOF. >>Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog Tougher, less

dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply,>>>" > I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, > where slapping a dog is anything but destructive.

YOU LIE. HERE’S PROOF. If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear chuck the dog under the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>> >> Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 >> Pinehurst, NC 28370    (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Here’s the full text. Got Milk? http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html??? Aren’t those AMY DAHL’S OWN WORDS??? But SHE don’t DO THAT??? Is EVERYBODY going to ignore the character of these people who lie and cover up for each other? Here’s HOWE they get that happy excited to work look on the dogs… >> Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. When

performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it.>>> ANY QUESTIONS?

Response:

> Two months have now passed since my order for Jerry > Howe’s "Doggy Do Right" device was placed and acknowledged. > The website indicates a 30-day delivery time, and, as > discussed here a month ago, Federal law prescribes that > vendors ship within 30 days, indicate a longer ship time > in their advertising, or notify the customer with the > reasons for failure or delay in shipping, giving the > customer the opportunity to wait or to withdraw the > order. > None of these things has happened.  In particular, I have > received no communication whatsoever from the vendor. > Unprofessional at best.

Why are none of us surprised? — Toni www.irish-wolfhounds.com I/we recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe should be ignored as a crank and waste of time Killfile the jerk!

Response:

Two months have now passed since my order for Jerry Howe’s "Doggy Do Right" device was placed and acknowledged. The website indicates a 30-day delivery time, and, as discussed here a month ago, Federal law prescribes that vendors ship within 30 days, indicate a longer ship time in their advertising, or notify the customer with the reasons for failure or delay in shipping, giving the customer the opportunity to wait or to withdraw the order. None of these things has happened.  In particular, I have received no communication whatsoever from the vendor. Unprofessional at best. I do not know whether my credit card has been charged. Usually by this time of the month my statement has arrived, but this month it has not. If it arrives, I’ll post here with the information, and of course, with the findings of my tests on it. — Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response: