Question:

>Hello lyingdoc,

Another excellent post but forged. Jerry

Response:

Hello lyingdoc dermer,

> Hi Anne, > I’m not a dog expert but an academic behavioral psychologist.

AND, a proven liar. And you approve of the koehler method of hanging dogs to rehabiliate them. BUT, you’re a better man than me, Gunga Din. You know HOWE to punish dog’s behavior, and NOT the dog. Too bad you lost your title, Master Of Deception, when you went and lied about my Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual not being a viable, complete approach… > I would try to do to things: (1) desensitze the dog to the troublesome > stimuli and (2) reinforce alternative constructive behavior. > For example with your dog somewhat food deprived and on a sit > and stay, program a skater to roll by your dog.

Did you grow up poor and hungry? Food seems to preoccupy your thinking. I break my dogs of being food motivated, it’s slovenly and unsightly. >  First have the skater roll by so slowly that the movement does not > evoke the "crazy" behavior. As long as your dog keeps his sit and > stay say "good dog" every few seconds and once the skater has well > passed offer a reinforcer.

THAT’S what called my attention to this post, lying doc. You’re supposed to be some sort a prufessor? Seems to me, you should stick to erasing blackboards and helping kids with their homework, instead of giving people bum steers here… Any dog trainer will tell you, that if you’re giving the food AFTER the stimulus has gone by, you are rewarding the dog for sitting there WHEN NOTHING IS HAPPENING. You’ve MISSED the pregnant moment… TIMING IS EVERYTHING, lying doc. I’d say it’s time for you to pack up and go back to pushing around school kids, and burning rats on hot plates to see if that modifies their appetite… HOWE’S that dog of your’s doin these days? Is he still masturbating on the sofa pillows? I think it’s an anxiety relief mechanism, a result of being punished. HOWE do you spose he learned that? Allelomimetic behavior??? > Then have the skater approach from the other direction and > repeat. Subsequently have the skater speed up and repeat the > procedure. If your guy breaks the "sit and stay" discontinue saying > "good dog" and the delivery of the reinforcer and program the skater > to roll by at a slower rate or at some greater distance from you and > the dog. The idea here, of course, is to eventually get your dog to sit > and stay (constructive behavior) in the presence of the once > evocative stimuli (skaters) by reinforcing appropriate behavior in the > presence of stimuli that are increasingly like the stimuli that provoke > him.

Right. You lost me a while back. > Now, once this works in one place for one skater you will have to > replicate the procedure in another place with another skater. In > this way you can program for the generalization of the behavior. > Once this works for one skater passing then try two. > Once this works for sit and stay, repeat the procedure with > your dog walking on a heel.

Yes, even though it will probably work better while moving. > Once this works for passing skaters, you can introduce a > skater rolling along with a dog.

Oh yeah? You gonna hire a skater, and rent a dog for him? What’s the point? Of course there is ANOTHER APPROACH, that could EASILY WORK in just a couple of miutes WITH DOING NUTHIN… If the poster had a couple of skaters willing to help, or a couple of friends with dogs who are trustworthy, she could just walk towards them and RELEASE THE DOG to make his greeting, she said HE LICKS them, and then catch up to them, put the dog on lead, and THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED. I didn’t recomend that to the original poster, because she needs to learn appropriate handling methods. But, sometimes being too smart is stupid, huh doc? Here’s MORE STUPIDITY from our lying doc ”professor” dermer:

> Yep! Of course, the truth of the advice is not whether I > or others agree, but whether the advice works!

You mean like the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com ? Interesting HOWE you deleted Marilyn from your list of posters you’ve learned from. She’s about the best trainer I’ve spoken to. She trains probably one thousand dogs a year. The way she teaches the come command is impeccable. Wise move killfiling her information… Tell us HOWE you feel about the following: Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article, there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears.  I would never slap a dog. I would never advise anyone to slap a dog. I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog," Wouldn’t you think that was despicable enough even just writing that, let alone risk suffering the embarrassment of not only having that attributed to yourself, but in fact denying your best work and PROVING YOURSELF A SHAMELESS LIAR AND ADVOCATE OF DOG ABUSE??? > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html > > http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html

Then tell me all about it.  Jerry. >  –Marshall > http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer > I have read rpdb for over two years.

Yes, you’ve led some of the arguments defending force, punishment, hurting dogs, and deriding non force methods. You criticize my methods without reading any further than my condemnation of the universities for the sorry state of the art of behaviorism as it exists today in dog training. You’ve recently endorsed the koehler method. In order to endorse the koehler method, you must be prepared to hang dogs who object to the incrementally increasing force, violence, and intimidation. Koehler justifies hurting dogs for willfully disobeying commands as a direct affront to the trainers AUTHORITY. Isn’t aggression a predictable response to jerking and choking and shocking and twisting and pinching ears, toes, and testicles, and beating dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE THEM? Don’cha thaink? > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational > posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much.

This is going to hurt a little bit, doc. Brace yourself. It’ll be all over in about two minutes. Just relax. > They include: Amy Dahl,

Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods, weren’t we… She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to motivate them to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears, not twists them, NO mention of twisting and pinching of toes or testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS, retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve… NICE stuff, huh? > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, … read more »

Response:

AMEN…I have the most obvious offender killfiled for a reason.   Why can’t everyone just IGNORE HIM???  I don’t get it…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and diverse > experience on dog behavior.  It is there but deeply buried amid a load of > silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill behavior,  pettiness and > pure, unadulterated garbage. > I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, thinking > that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so many posts > actually contain copies of the posts of the people I placed on my kill-file > that I am forced to read their inane comments anyhow. > I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally > ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead of > feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting their drivel > for others to read over and over. It really ruins the group > Has anyone considered a moderated list? > In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far stroinger > stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST! > Don Andrews

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >AMEN…I have the most obvious offender killfiled for a reason.   Why can’t >everyone just IGNORE HIM???  I don’t get it… > I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and >diverse > experience on dog behavior.  It is there but deeply buried amid a load of > silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill behavior,  pettiness >and > pure, unadulterated garbage. > I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, >thinking > that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so many posts > actually contain copies of the posts of the people I placed on my >kill-file > that I am forced to read their inane comments anyhow. > I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally > ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead of > feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting their >drivel > for others to read over and over. It really ruins the group > Has anyone considered a moderated list? > In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far >stroinger > stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST! > Don Andrews

Response:

> I know what you mean. I have to wonder why the Jerry Howe stuff is not blocked > out.

Because this is a completely unregulated group.  There are a lot of moderated regulated groups for discussing just about every issue on dogs you could wish.  These groups are just not newsgroups. Instead they are either webbased or email based discussion lists (or a combination of the two) see http://www.egroups.com  Complete List of Dog-Related Email Lists  http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/lists/email-list.html Diane Blackman Play is necessary to the fullest development of any intelligent being. http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html

Response:

Because they are AFRAID of what I am SAYING… IT’S THE TRUTH. THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR REPUTATIONS AND CAREERS, WHATEVER’S LEFT OF IT. Jerry. j;~} – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> AMEN…I have the most obvious offender killfiled for a reason. Why can’t > everyone just IGNORE HIM???  I don’t get it… > I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and > diverse > experience on dog behavior.  It is there but deeply buried amid a load of > silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill behavior, pettiness > and > pure, unadulterated garbage. > I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, > thinking > that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so many posts > actually contain copies of the posts of the people I placed on my > kill-file > that I am forced to read their inane comments anyhow. > I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally > ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead of > feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting their > drivel > for others to read over and over. It really ruins the group > Has anyone considered a moderated list? > In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far > stroinger > stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST! > Don Andrews

Response:

Hello lyingdoc,

>  So called "separation anxiety" (SA) is likely to have different > causes  than the distructive behavior you alluded to above.

Does phd mean piled high and deep? HOWE do I pronounce it, pfht? What do you mean causes? The destructive behavior is not a cause, anxiety is the cause. Is that a typo? Or did you make that error intentionally to confuse the reader? You’ve got some way with words doc, and I know you wouldn’t misspeak. I think what you were saying is that the example cited may not be separation anxiety. That wasn’t part of the equation. You’re throwing that in to bolster your ulterior motive… You are the Master Of Deception… > In the case of SA the owner may be unwittingly shaping up > the anxious behavior by discontinuing his or her departure > routine to comfort the dog after it wimpers, scratches the floor, > etc.  Gradually the dog come to peform more and more of > these behaviors.

As I said in the other post, that may well be the case in some instances, but not when it comes to experienced dog people. >  Distructive behavior can have many causes. For example, > the dog has not  received sufficient exercise,

I’ve got no basis or observation by which to believe that this is in any way whatsoever correct. Even your pal steve boyer agrees with me on that point. YOU and the Gang Of Thugs use exercise to PREVENT behaivor problems, instead of dealing with the behaivor. THAT’S what causes the dog to need X amount of daily exercise or they get antsey, like a jogger will experience. >  there are all kinds of good smelling things in the cabinets,

Temptation like that is a training problem, not an anxiety problem. You are mixing apples and oranges, and I suspect the reason you do so, is to be able to justify punishment for destructive behavior. >  the owner attends to the dog when it misbehaves,

You mean like when we punish the dog for messing on the floor or chewing while we were out? HOWE does our doc dermer address those behavors? Hmm? You got a twelve hour kong toy? Or are you going to take the dog out for a two hour bike ride before going to work? >  the owner throws the dog a treat when it misbehaves (Look, > the treat momentarily distracts the dog from the nuisance > behavior!

That would probably stop the behaivor. Then we could work on breaking the behavior. But don’t forget, food treats are bribery, and I don’t roll over that easy…I’m not paying off my dog to not screw me over. I’m going to work with him properly so that everything I do is a payoff for him, and he’s always going to do as I ask, the first time. That’s the way it works when we don’t punish and confront behaivor problems. > Nixon allegedly did this with his dog!)

I’m not familiar with the particulars of his dog’s behavior problems, but I think her name was Molly, do you happen to recall her name? > isolation has been correlated with punishment, etc.

I don’t punish behavior, but isolation as a punishment might be a good idea, if punishment were a good idea to begin with. I seriously doubt that a dog punished by isolation would look at being left alone at home as similar to being punished… I’d like to be able to say I’ll give it a try and let you know what I think of it as a training technique, but I don’t punish, and I’m not going to start now to find out if it works well using isolation. What am I going to do, issue jail sentences to the dog for misdemeanors? > I’m  sure, Ludwig Smith, Diane Blackman, Avrama Gingold, > and other regulars could list even more putative causes than > have I.

Probably they could give us lots of misinformation and really muck things up. They are all koehler trainers, and they are willing to HANG dogs to train them…Maybe one of our Gang Of Thugs will submit the koehler technique for destructive behavior when we are out???  I think we need a belt for that correction…Because we wouldn’t EVER want to hit the dog with his leash, RIGHT doc? >  Sorry for not being able to really answer your original > question Marilyn.

That’s O.K., we’re used to that from you, doc, when you’re not ducking questions like the one I asked you about webweave shoving an article the pup has chewed soaked with bitter apple into the pups mouth. REMEMBER YOU DIDN’T ANSWER? I do. You wouldn’t answer because you approve of it…and you’re too cowardly to admit it because you KNOW it will sound vicious to ANY DECENT HUMAN BEING. >  –Marshall >  http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer

"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and diverse experience on dog behavior. It is there but deeply buried amid a load of silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill behavior, pettiness and pure, unadulterated garbage. I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, thinking that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so many posts actually contain copies of the posts of the people I placed on my kill-file that I am forced to read their inane comments anyhow. I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead of feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting their drivel for others to read over and over. It really ruins the group Has anyone considered a moderated list? In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far stroinger stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST! I can see youve picked up the art of abuse on here.  Just look at the generalisations.  Nick My love shall hear the music of my hounds. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

Hello Professor Dermer, Very interesting post.

> How do dogs learn which behavior is right and which is wrong in > dogs way of life?

Doc dermer likes to rely on food bribes and punishment. >  The right ways are followed by effective behavior and the wrong >  ways either fail or produce punishment.

Let’s look at dog trainer’s from that perspective. You could take that to mean good training methods produce results, and incorrect methods fail, or cause the dog trainer to punish the dog… Let’s examine the methods of the posters you have learned so much from whom you’ve listed below… >  –Marshall > http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer > I have read rpdb for over two years.

Yes, you’ve led some of the arguments defending force, punishment, hurting dogs, and deriding non force methods. You criticize my methods without reading any further than my condemnation of the universities for the sorry state of the art of behaviorism as it exists today in dog training. You’ve recently endorsed the koehler method. In order to endorse the koehler method, you must be prepared to hang dogs who object to the incrementally increasing force, violence, and intimidation. Koehler justifies hurting dogs for willfully disobeying commands as a direct affront to the trainers AUTHORITY. Isn’t aggression a predictable response to jerking and choking and shocking and twisting and pinching ears, toes, and testicles, and beating dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE THEM? Don’cha thaink? > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational > posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much.

This is going to hurt a little bit, doc. Brace yourself. It’ll be all over in about two minutes. Just relax. > They include: Amy Dahl,

Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods, weren’t we… She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to motivate them to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears, not twists them, NO mention of twisting and pinching of toes or testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS, retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve… NICE stuff, huh? > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n fagarty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. > Cindy Tittle Moore,

A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron? Here’s the deal… We get her to force fetch train three dogs in front of a childs playground, and I’ll train three protection dogs in the same site, and we’ll see who the children are disturbed by, and who the parents are going to call the cops on… And then I’ll show ups as expert witness for the prosecution, and we’ll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a criminal judge and jury… HOWE’S that for a FAIR TEST??? > Denna Pace,

Says she sees a lot of value in koehler… She’s got PLENTY of problems with her own dogs running away and being disobedient. > Marily Rammell,

what the hell is she doing in this lineup of Thugs? > John Richardson,

He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle. He’s as abusive and immature as they come. He’s a clone of dogman. The dogs he can’t hurt into being friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike yourself, he’s too stupid to be evil. He’s just doing what koehler taught him. > Ludwig Smith,

Another koehler trainer. He’s too cowardly to come out and say what he believes. He throws around lots of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help in koehler’s books. He’s got a link to cindymoron’s page on his sig file… > and Terri Willis.

The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because she is compensating for her inferiority complex. She WANTS TO HURT DOGS. NEXT POST, we’ll talk about YOU, lyindoc dermer. Let’s figure out why your dog masturbates on the pillows. Could it be allelomimetic behavior? Bye! Your pal, Jerry. >        Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of >                      http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer

"Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Don, I’m sorry to read your post about leaving. My killfile serves me well (see below). –Marshall I have read rpdb for over three years. Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much. They include: Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, Cindy Tittle Moore, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, and Terri Willis. Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of                http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer "Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation, and is thus a source of civilized delight."–William Safire My current killfile: /Jerry Howe/h:j /Ninnyboy/h:j /Anonymous/h:j /Ed Williams/h:j /BIGDOGBITE/h:j

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I know what you mean. I have to wonder why the Jerry Howe stuff is not blocked out.

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> I know what you mean. I have to wonder why the Jerry Howe stuff is not blocked > out.

Because you haven’t put him in your killfile? I’m not sure who or what you mean as being responsible for the blocking out.  This is an unmoderated usenet newsgroup;  I don’t know of any mechanism for blocking some content to that.  There are spamcancels and bincancels, though we hardly ever see those here;  there’s complaining to an individual’s ISP which may take them off the ‘net for a while;  and there’s individual kill files, in which we each tell our computers "don’t bother me with this Jerry Howe stuff anymore, okay?".  Nothing that I know of for preventing offensive posts in the first place though.

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Hello Don,

> I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and > diverse experience on dog behavior.  It is there but deeply buried > amid a load of silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill > behavior,  pettiness and pure, unadulterated garbage. > I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, > thinking that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so > many posts actually contain copies of the posts of the people I > placed on my kill-file that I am forced to read their inane comments > anyhow.

Good for you! You’ve shown a great deal of intelligence. > I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally > ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead > of feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting > their drivel for others to read over and over. It really ruins the

group INDEED. Apathy, or just plain guilt, causes lots of people to IGNORE the abuses our Gang Of Thugs accepts as NORMAL. BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them, and HANGING DOGS to REHABILITATE them, is CRIMINALLY INSANE BEHAVIOR. > Has anyone considered a moderated list?

EVEN BETTER. The abusive ”trainers” here will be forced by public opinion, to find someplace else to be. The Conga line is forming now, you’d better hurry and get in line, or you’ll be left here with the folks who are interested in rehabilitating dog behavior problems without jerking, choking, shocking, twisting and pinching ears, toes, and testicles, BEATING DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them, and HANGING DOGS to REHABILIATE them… Don’t want to have anybody saying NOT to HURT DOGS in our little group…BECAUSE DOGS NEED PUNISHMENT and DISCIPLINE disguised as training, not all the time, BUT WHEN IT FEELS GOOD TO HURT THEM. Like those times we run out of IDEAS and INFORMATION about dog behavior… or when we get frustrated. > In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far > stroinger stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST!

 > Don Andrews Of course, HURTING DOGS to train them DOES NOT TURN YOUR STOMACH. Only people COMPLAINING about people abusing dogs, disturbs you. WANT TO KNOW WHY? Most people who have difficulty with ME, seem to IDENTIFY with the abusive cretins I’ve EXPOSED here. The following will give YOU some NEW OPTIONS: "Hello Soup, Sounds like BUNK to me… What evidence do you have to support your proposition the brain is really capable of recognizing and discriminating good from bad information??? There is NO EVIDENCE whatsoever supporting what you suggest here, and I think you are just trying to SCAM good people out of their minds, by making them use them all up… PEOPLE!!! Don’t listen to this scam artist who only wants you to THINK, so he can scam you out of you mind while it is being preoccupied with his distraction technique… Don’t be fooled! Thinking can be dangerous! Reading information will give you ideas. CAVEAT EMPTOR. Jerry."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> HOW TO FILTER POSTS ON NEWSGROUPS WITHOUT KILLFILES > A SUPERDOG STATION EXCLUSIVE > I’ve found this incredible way to filter posts which I want > to share with you all, actually, I’ve been using it for a > few years now and you won’t believe it when I tell you how > powerful it is…I know this sounds complicated, but all you > have to do is look at posts/threads, decide which you think > you might want to read, and then read them.  The ones you > don’t want to read, (listen carefully now…you don’t > read). > You see, you actually use something called your "BraIN" and > believe it or not, your eyes cooperate and if your "BraIN" > tells them not to read something, they won’t.  Of course, > your hand has to cooperate with your brain by not clicking > unless it is told to. > Sexual predators, Heads of State, mimes, and people with > Parkinson’s Disease often have trouble controlling their > hands, but most everyone else should be okay. > Scientists have proven the filtering ability of the brain > with double blind experiments in Rhesus Monkeys.  Of course, > many critics argue that doubly blinded monkeys are rendered > poor subjects for experiments involving sight and/or > perception, but what do these yahyahhing critics know > anyway? > Anyway, this "BraIN" thing is really cool.  Many of you > people should try it sometime.  It’s good for other things > besides newsgroups too!  You can impress all your friends > and neighbors with it, and you can even use it to seduce > older teenagers like Britney Spears, middle-aged teenagers > like Christina Aguilera or even brand spankin new teenagers > like Mandy Moore, if they live close by. > DISCLAIMER: > (please do not trespass on private property to seduce > teenagers, regardless of age, unless you get written > permission from their parents or guardians). > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN NETSCAPE > Instead of filtering people, I filter threads and posts.  I > typically read about 10-20% of the posts here, because I > don’t have time to read them all….in Netscape, I just read > the ones I want to read, then I hit SHIFT-C (which marks all > messages read) > Or…the long way by clicking up top > Messages—> > Mark—-> > all read > Then I just close the window and I’m done.  Then next time I > open it, only new messages appear.  If I find an interesting > thread, where I want to go back and read the whole thing, I > can go back and mark the whole thread unread and read it. > View—> > Messages—> > all > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN OUTLOOK > read the help > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN AGENT > read the help > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN AOL > obviously, if you use AOL for newsgroups you can’t > JUST KIDDING!  I was just yah yahhing you there. > read the help > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN EUDORA > read the help > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN IN XNEWS > read the help > HOW TO USE YOUR BRAIN in other programs, > see above and extrapolate (a fancy way of using your brain) > Yours for dogs, law and order, the American Way, and the > keeping of the ruffians, the ya yahhers, the troublemakers, > the cat callers, and the "up to no good" at bay… > This is Michael > Reporting Live… > http://dogtv.com

Response:

I just recently joined this group hoping to gain some collective and diverse experience on dog behavior.  It is there but deeply buried amid a load of silliness, immaturity, grossly psychologically ill behavior,  pettiness and pure, unadulterated garbage. I saw immediately that I’d have to set up a kill-file which I did, thinking that might eliminate some of the garbage. Nevertheless so many posts actually contain copies of the posts of the people I placed on my kill-file that I am forced to read their inane comments anyhow. I’d think that people on the list by now would have learned to totally ignore these sick people who so desperately seek attention instead of feeding their sick needs by actually responding to and quoting their drivel for others to read over and over. It really ruins the group Has anyone considered a moderated list? In any event, lotsa luck to all of you in the future. You have far stroinger stomachs than I have. I am outta here FAST! Don Andrews

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