Dog Behavior Information » Dog Behavior Problem » Need Suggestions

Need Suggestions

Question:

Hello everyone! I just discovered this newsgroup, and am hoping I can learn and get some good ideas as well as share whatever info I can. I have a small pond along the back edge of my backyard. This pond was put in by the previous owners, and it has just a natural bottom, no plastic bottomcover. The pond keeps naturally full when there is plenty of rain, as it gets runoff from the higher properties above me, but dries out in the summer, and I have to add water to it constantly to keep it full. As long as the pond is full, there is lot’s of wildlife which visit it, and it is full of tadpoles and the frogs hang around it. Toads come lay their eggs there, and the croaking of all the frogs is a soothing sound at night. What I am wondering is whether I should put a bottom in this pond to keep the water in, and what effect this would have. The pond area is about 10 feet by 6 feet, by 4 feet deep. The previous owner had some fish in there, but when the pond started drying up, I added water from the hose, and it killed all the fish. I don’t know if it was the water temperature or adding too much water at one time, or what could have killed them? There is no pump in the pond, could it be a lack of oxygen? — Chris Peterson

Response:

If you live inthe city call and find out what additives are in the water that could be what killed the fish, The easiest is to put a liner in the pond. buy a lot of plant underwater and marginal and buy a pump to get some oxygen in the water.Find some pond links, the best source The Internet Pond Society. Good Luck! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello everyone! I just discovered this newsgroup, and am > hoping I can learn and get some good ideas as well as > share whatever info I can. > I have a small pond along the back edge of my backyard. > This pond was put in by the previous owners, and it has > just a natural bottom, no plastic bottomcover. The pond > keeps naturally full when there is plenty of rain, as it > gets runoff from the higher properties above me, but > dries out in the summer, and I have to add water to it > constantly to keep it full. > As long as the pond is full, there is lot’s of wildlife > which visit it, and it is full of tadpoles and the frogs > hang around it. Toads come lay their eggs there, and the > croaking of all the frogs is a soothing sound at night. > What I am wondering is whether I should put a bottom in > this pond to keep the water in, and what effect this would > have. The pond area is about 10 feet by 6 feet, by 4 feet > deep. > The previous owner had some fish in there, but when the > pond started drying up, I added water from the hose, and > it killed all the fish. I don’t know if it was the water > temperature or adding too much water at one time, or > what could have killed them? There is no pump in the pond, > could it be a lack of oxygen? > — > Chris Peterson

Response:

Hello krishur, Fasten your seat belt, this is going to be unpleasant for you. Monday, March 26, 2001 11:39 AM Hello KrisHur,

> patronizing message

You got complaints about my information? Perhaps that’s because my information is beyond your ability to understand? No problem, just ask and I’ll spit it out another way. Maybe I’ll use baby talk for your edification??? > > How do you turn and not pull if he has broken his heel and is > > ahead of you? > You can’t. That’s called a learning plateau. It’s expected. It’s > covered in the manual. > I see, you are not here to give advice, just sell your stuff.

Would you like to learn about training your dog? I’m telling you what you need to learn. If you want to buy my Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too), I suggest you order on my secure order page at http://www.doggydoright.com. You’ll have to fight your way past the hard sell FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. Just ignore those links… Thursday, April 19, 2001 10:08 PM krishur writes: "kids who wander into your yard aren’t likely to be anything but licked to death by a lab and fences are expensive permanent structures, you may want to try the IF first." You’re telling people to shock their dogs and not to worry about the dog becoming vicious from getting shocked. Get ready for a little BUMP. Wednesday, April 25, 2001 7:20 PM Re: [FLAME] Re: Almost lost Casey today – Garbage Proofing: SOUND DISTRACTION AND PRAISE TECHNIQUE

> Nancy, it’s clear to everyone that he’s the world’s biggest lying,

Nope. Don’t have no quotes, do you? I’ve got plenty of quotes when I call a liar a liar. Ought you not should oughta quote my lies? > scamming

Scamming? I’ve got FREE INFORMATION that YOU don’t know because you don’t like NOT hurting dogs to train them. > A-hole.

Don’t mince words with me. > You are going to give yourself a heart attack by letting him get > you so worked up.

Maybe he’ll smarten up someHOWE in the interim. > He’s a troll,

I’m a dog trainer. > that’s what he wants.

I want you bums to learn to train dogs without hurting them. > Do yourself a favor and killfile him.

Funny you don’t want to talk dog training… > Silence is how you hurt and eventually kill a troll.

That’s good for trolls. You got me. Better get used to it, because you’re going to learn to love me, like it or not.

> It was clear that I would be doing this MYSELF!

Amazing, truly amazing! When I train little kids they sometimes need some help from mommy. And once in a while I have someone who’s got a reading disability, or just has trouble undestanding the concept. Well, that’s why I’m always available right here for extra help. I’ve even got a toll free Wits’ End Dog Training phone line for my FREE training students. > The whole point of our conversation was me training my friends dog > to stay out of my planters when she comes over

Right. > (w/out the friend realizing what’s going on) b/c the friend > is not interested in training her dog.

Yes, we discussed that. > Your long winded replies are disgusting and boring so I scanned > them,

Good for you. You scanned the INSTRUCTIONS. That’s what I tell all of my students to do. I usually tell them to print it out or copy it to a floppy and put it under their pillow and sleep on it. Then when they wake up, start with the shock collar corrections and proceed to calling me a liar. > but I realized you would bury an out for yourself,

Oh, you mean just in case you don’t bother to read the instructions I’ve generously provided and referred you to no less than fifteen times in direct response to you on the forum? > so I asked you outright if the below was the way it’s done. > Remember this:

I’ve got a pretty good memory when it comes to dog behavior problems… What I remember mostly about you is your refusal to read the instructions: "I responded to one of his posts asking a question regarding heeling. He gave me a half answer" I probably told you all you could understand about the problem without any more background of training to be able to continue. "and everytime I asked for the rest of the answer he referred me to his training product- not the "free" pamphlet or whatever he’s using as a lure." Oh, I think you’re a bit of a liar. Care to show me the alleged posts? Hmm? You threw them out, didn’t you. > I doubt that he knows anything about dog training as evidenced by > our exchange; I never did get an answer to how do you change > direction when a dog breaks Heel w/out pulling on the leash–

That’s because you’d need to learn a little about proper handling and training first. Otherwise, it’d be like talking to a gorilla for me to attempt to discuss training with you. > "As she goes to step in I’ll whistle (before she gets a paw in) to > distract her, then praise her for a long time. (fart/belch/crap your > pants/use a handi-wipe for your butt is gross…that’s the language > I’m talking about…no one wants to hear that). After 4x we’ll see if > she still does it." > You NEVER replied that I was mistaken and needed someone’s > help.

Oh. That’s cause you don’t need nobody else’s help if you read the instructions for the sound distraction and praise technique I’ve offered you about fifteen times. > Here’s some other things you said, to tell me I could do this myself: > >Skip the chit chat and just train the dog not to jump on you.

That’s EZ. But you got to understand the techniques. Don’t blame me for YOU not reading the instructions. > So friend and their dog come over and you just start training the > dog. > Yeah, kind of instead of moaning about it. Just make a click and > say "GOOD BOY! NICE DOG! THAT’S A GOOD FELLA!," and wait > for the dog to makeanother mistake and repeat the process

++++ > using another brief sound distraction Got it? Another. Not the same. That’s key to this method. You must not use the same brief distraction twice in succession, because the distraction is NOT a distraction if we EXPECT it. Is it? > followed by prolonged, non physical praise. You could even > use it on an aggressive dog. I’ve staked my life on it. > In this very message you contradict yourself:

No. YOU contradict ME, cause YOU got a axe to grind. You’re a Thug. And you’re trying to blame ME, for YOU not reading my disgusting, boring posts or my poorly written instructions in my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual cause you’re too busy BITCHING that I’ve got something to SELL that cures most dog behavior problems and is money back satisfaction guaranteed forever, including paid return shipping. What’s wrong with you? > > He told me I could use his methods, myself, > Right. I’ve told you dozens of times directly, and many dozens of > times in my reprints of the …..blah, blah blah.

Oh, the blah blah blah part? THAT was the INSTRUCTIONS. > You don’t say anything to the owner, > What’s to say if they’re not going to participate? Just make a brief > sound, perhaps something like kind of a moderate flatuate might > work, and follow it with prolonged praise. Then for the next mistake, > you cold BELCH, mildy, politely, so as not to offend, and follow that > with prolonged, non physical praise. So, to review. Eat beans and > beer, and belch and fart alternately, followed by prolonged, non > physical praise.

THAT, was for JUMPING on you, NOT for stepping in the garden… For doing something at a DISTANCE, you’d not be able to use the Beans & Beer techinque. But you could use it for jumpin on you… because the PERSPECTIVE of the origination of the distraction, would change each time you used it, at least till you had too much beer to remember the point of origin of the last distraction. The problem is, you like to hurt your dogs, and you want to prove hurting dogs is necessary in order to justify being a Thug, to expiate your negative karma… And to do so, you’ve got to lie about me because I’ve proven you to be a lying, dog abusing Thug. "feedback on invisible fencing" Hello kris,

> Lots of people in my area use it and I have never seen their dogs > in the street

Right. Because when a dog wearing a shock collar makes a break for it, they don’t stop running till the batteries are dead. > or heard of the dogs developing any bad behaviors from it–

Yeah? You don’t read our dog forums much, do you? You didn’t notice janet boss’s thread "interested in hearing" where the little dog was made hand shy and aggressive towards strangers because of the shock devices used. > when professionally installed they will train the dog.

Oh, by an expert who knows HOWE to properly HURT your dog? > A neighbor’s golden that my labby has regular playdates with (who > never had any training either and chases the deer, geese and > squirrels to the edge of her territory) has one > and her neck isn’t raw or anything,

Wonderful. > in fact her collar is so loose I could > almost take it off over her head.

I’ll bet she’d like that. > Some dogs (esp. Alaskan types) have a strong urge to wander and > the IF won’t keep them in–

No. It’s not the "if" keeping or not keeping them in, it’s TRAINING that keeps them in. I do the same thing without shocking or choking my dogs. > they would rather shock themselves and the only solution > (which is really unacceptable) is to keep upping the charge until > it’s more pain than an irritation.

Why is that unacceptable? The OBJECTIVE of the shock collar is to INFLICT PAIN, isn’t it? … read more »

Response:

It was clear that I would be doing this MYSELF! The whole point of our conversation was me training my friends dog to stay out of my planters when she comes over (w/out the friend realizing what’s going on) b/c the friend is not interested in training her dog. Your long winded replies are disgusting and boring so I scanned them, but I realized you would bury an out for yourself, so I asked you outright if the below was the way it’s done. Remember this: "As she goes to step in I’ll whistle (before she gets a paw in) to distract her, then praise her for a long time. (fart/belch/crap your pants/use a handi-wipe for your butt is gross…that’s the language I’m talking about…no one wants to hear that). After 4x we’ll see if she still does it." You NEVER replied that I was mistaken and needed someone’s help. Here’s some other things you said, to tell me I could do this myself: >Skip the chit chat and just train the dog not to jump on you. > So friend and their dog come over and you just start training the > dog.

Yeah, kind of instead of moaning about it. Just make a click and say "GOOD BOY! NICE DOG! THAT’S A GOOD FELLA!," and wait for the dog to make another mistake and repeat the process using another brief sound distraction followed by prolonged, non physical praise. You could even use it on an aggressive dog. I’ve staked my life on it. In this very message you contradict yourself: > He told me I could use his methods, myself, > Right. I’ve told you dozens of times directly, and many dozens of times > in my reprints of the …..blah, blah blah. > You don’t say anything to the owner,

What’s to say if they’re not going to participate? Just make a brief sound, perhaps something like kind of a moderate flatuate might work, and follow it with prolonged praise. Then for the next mistake, you cold BELCH, mildy, politely, so as not to offend, and follow that with prolonged, non physical praise. So, to review. Eat beans and beer, and belch and fart alternately, followed by prolonged, non physical praise.

Response:

Hello krishur, Do you remember this: You can impress her with the new methods you’ve learned. Try breaking her into it with something subtle yet impressive, like teaching the dog to beg from several feet away from you. You can do it with just snapping your fingers and praising, if you do it according to the instructions in the FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. >> If you know so much, how would you suggest I keep her dog >> out of my flowerbeds? >That’s EZ. Variable brief sound distraction and prolonged, non > physical praise. It’s all in the manual. > Unless you there’s a section named, "keeping dogs out of flower > beds" I need you to explain further, when the dog steps into the > flower bed what should I do? Whistle and say good girl?

You could. But you’d need to present the next sound distraction from a different direction. If you could get your friend or husband stationed at the right spot to make the alternate sound, you’d break her of stepping on the flowerbed in four interruptions at each enterance to the flowers. NOW, DOES THAT EXPLAIN WHY YOU BLEW IT? What explains why you are now calling me a liar? The following will explain. It’ll expose you as a lying, dog abusing Thug:

> I know, usually I trim,

Yes indeedy. Most of our Gang Of Thugs snips relevant portions of the text to confuse readers unfamiliar with the details and to avoid the facts of the matters. It’s expected here on rpdb. They’ve used every sort of excuse from it’s expensive for folks overseas to download messages to it’s taking up too much server space. > but I wanted to show the boards he cross- posts too that he is a > liar….

As you’ve been trying to do since day one here? Wednesday, April 25, 2001 7:20 PM Hello kris,

> Nancy, it’s clear to everyone that he’s the world’s biggest lying,

Nope. Don’t have no quotes, do you? I’ve got plenty of quotes when I call a liar a liar. Ought you not should oughta quote my lies? > scamming

Scamming? I’ve got FREE INFORMATION that YOU don’t know because you don’t like NOT hurting dogs to train them. > A-hole.

Don’t mince words with me. > You are going to give yourself a heart attack by letting him get > you so worked up.

Maybe he’ll smarten up someHOWE in the interim. > He’s a troll,

I’m a dog trainer. > that’s what he wants.

I want you bums to learn to train dogs without hurting them. > Do yourself a favor and killfile him.

Funny you don’t want to talk dog training… > Silence is how you hurt and eventually kill a troll.

That’s good for trolls. You got me. Better get used to it, because you’re going to learn to love me, like it or not. Your pal, Jerry "The PHONY," Howe. j;~} > his methods don’t work and when they

Of course my methods work or I wouldn’t be in this business successfully for thirty eight years and I wouldn’t have been able to invent a machine that cures dog and kat and birdie and horsey and bunny behavior problems like car sickness and fear of thunder, gunshyness, hyperactivity and aggression and shyness and digging and chewing and even self mutilation, side sucking, paw licking, etc. And moore. > don’t he tells you that you are doing them wrong.

Well, considering the fact that my methods are scientific, doing them WRONG is the ONLY reason they won’t work, as the scientific method requires the results be repeatable by anyone following the TECHNIQUE. > He told me I could use his methods, myself,

Right. I’ve told you dozens of times directly, and many dozens of times in my reprints of the Sound Distraction And Praise Techniques. It’s in the FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual, which I’ve recommended twenty or thirty or forty or fifty times a day, in almost every post. > now he’s telling me I need to teleport all over to make sure the > "sound" doesn’t come from the same place.

No, I’m telling you what I’ve always told everyone, that you’ve got to follow the INSTRUCTIONS. Is that too much to ask? I mean you’d have to read at least one long page to understand just this one technique. > Where in the manual would I find this information?

You start at the begining of page one. And the answer is on the last page, but only if you read everyting in between. It’s a GESTALT. That’s HOWE come I guarantee it. > Or are you suggesting I have to start at the beginning and train her > dog?

That’s what I recommend, but that’s not applicable in this case, unless you asked permission and did the work and they’d probably be bright enough to follow through only enough to use praise properly, and that will be a big help. > I’d have to get permission first,

Right. If you wanted to do a first class job of working with her. That would take about four fifteen minute sessions doing the Family Leadership Exercise, and if all things were equal, you could move right into the more advanced work and really have some fun with her. > and after the long uncomfortable silence I may lose my girl’s only > hiking buddy….

Well, to meet your needs for her dog’s appropriate behavior, I really don’t think you’ll have any difficulty working with the sound distraction and praise techniques to control her in your yard. > though as I said earlier, I’m going to print it out and give it to the > owner…I bet she doesn’t even read it; though she might, I think she > doesn’t believe in correcting too and only recently gave in to the > pinch collar (she didn’t want to) to prevent her girl from ripping > her arm out of her socket.

Ahh. So, there’s another reason for her out of control behavior. > There is a market (a big one I bet) for your > training style….remember honey, not vinegar.

You’ve got to realize there’s been a long history on these groups of intentionally repressing every non force trainer who’s ever visited. It’s a conspiracy of koehler trainers defending their alleged right to hurt dogs to train them. That’s why I came in here. I saw what was going on and set out to set the record straight. I’m sure HOWEver, that some of the problem in the past has been that there have not been a lot of expert non force trainers available, so naturally our "experts" wouldn’t have known there’s any other way to train a dog, than choking and shocking them. >> Sorry to disappoint but she is. >Why do you use the pronged spiked pinch choke collar? > First prong collars are not spiked.

Oh. They pinch, not spike? No, I haven’t tried one on for myself. > The word "spiked" connotes sharp points,

Sharp is relative. Spikes are those 3/4" protrusions all around the inside of the choking part of the collar. > prongs couldn’t be duller.

Pinching with dull or sharp prongs is pinching, anyHOWE you twist it. > B/c I never worked on her heel (didn’t care) and it gently reminds > her not to pull as she leads, just the lightest amount of > tension on the leash reminds her not to pull–prongs are > uncomfortable not painful.

And that’s what causes anxiety and mistrust. > However, now that I’m going for her CGC and therapy training, I’m > working on getting her off it, AAMOF, we’ve been working on her > heel and I’ll be starting advanced classes next month w/out it.

Do my manual and forget about your advanced class. Get rid of the pronged collar as soon as you finish the manual and do the work. You’ll have her acting like a new dog in about four days. > "Maybe she just hasn’t seen you work with your dogs? Could that > be why she doesn’t want to train her dog like yours?" >> That makes no sense. If she hasn’t seen me train my dog why >> would she not want to train hers like mine? She agrees that my >> dog is very well behaved and that hers is not. >Then she’s seen you handle your own dogs. Perhaps that’s why > she’d prefer her dog to be out of control? > I haven’t given my dog a correction in years. When we are together > the dogs are off-leash anyway–hiking out in the woods or > swimming in my fenced yard.

Good. > > This dog jumps all over my truck when I come over to pick them > > up and once inside will scratch at the windows clawing up the > > "window sill", > "Well, that sounds like an anxious dog, not a misbehaved dog." >> Agreed, but that’s only the tip of the iceberg. She jumps on >> people, pulls on the lead, etc. >That’s all the same problem caused by the same erroneous efforts > to control her. > I definitely agree w/you there. She doesn’t know what’s expected of > her, she just hears "NO!" or her name being yelled all the time.

Well, just ceasing that kind of interaction will have a noticable beneficial effect. > > solution, I don’t take my truck over to their house anymore– >Well, you could easily learn to control her in your truck. > I have enough scratches on it from pulling into her driveway, we > have a deal now, she drives. The one time I had to drive (friend’s > car in the garage) she actually got mad at me for asking her to > keep the dog in the house at the time I was expected to come over.

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. >> First, I’ve never done anything mean to her dog.

I never expected you did. >> Tell me "howe" to keep her dog out of my planters. >EZ. The sound distraction and praise techniques taught in my > FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > That’s not an answer,

Sure it is. That’s what I tell all my students. Honest. > how do I keep her dog out of my planter?

Distraction and praise techniques. It’s all in the manual. Everything you need to know to bring any dog to any level of work you want, is in there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> First tell the owner her dog needs training, (if we are still friends > after that) then tell her I can do it (implying she can and should > but won’t, if we are still friends after that) start at the beginning of > the manual and train

Response:

>He told me I could use his methods, myself, >now he’s telling me I need to teleport all over to make sure the "sound" >doesn’t come from the same place.

Not to defend him, but the idea is that you move to a different spot (no need to teleport, just walk) and use the sound distraction. . . Throw him on killfile and you don’t have to worry about his mumbo jumbo Take care, Maggie

Response:

I didn’t see any reply except for a long subject line that said something about corrections, knowing your stance on that, I wasn’t sure what you were talking about, but it seemed aimed at me. I did exactly what you told me to do, distract w/sound at the moment the dog is thinking about doing the bad behavior and the praise for an extended period of time. You never said anything about sound coming from several places. How one person can train a dog and have the sound come from many places? Wouldn’t that require several people to be "stationed" all over? You told me I could do this myself, now you tell me I cannot…I thought I would give you a chance. You are definitely a liar (should’ve known when you wouldn’t give me a straight answer about heeling several months ago) and back to the kill-file you go.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello krishur, > Not sure I understand your reply…. > My reply was that you didn’t fully read, understand, or follow the > INSTRUCTIONS. > are you telling me to correct her > when she ignores the sound distraction? > Where do you find that in my instructions? There’s no such thing as > "effective corrections" in a physical sense. You failed to follow the > TECHNIQUE. > The techniques clearly states the sound distraction must not come from > the same source twice in a row. Go back and read the instructions, and > if you have any questions, just ask. Most of what you need to do can be > done in just a few minutes, but you got to know HOWE. It’s not MAGICK. > j;~}

Response:

I know, usually I trim, but I wanted to show the boards he cross-posts too that he is a liar….his methods don’t work and when they don’t he tells you that you are doing them wrong. He told me I could use his methods, myself, now he’s telling me I need to teleport all over to make sure the "sound" doesn’t come from the same place.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The preceding post has been crossposted across the following newsgroups: > rec.pets.dogs.behavior > alt.med.veterinary > rec.pets.dogs.rescue > rec.pets.dogs.health > alt.pets.dogs.labrador > This is often the result of a troll attempting to provoke a > flamewar. If you respond, please trim your Newsgroups line or set > appropriate Followups. > — > I’m the automated welcomer for rec.pets.dogs.behavior, moonlighting. > If you don’t wish to see my posts, killfile my email address or the > subject tag "ninnyboy" (a rpdb convention)

Response:

Hello krishur,

> Not sure I understand your reply….

My reply was that you didn’t fully read, understand, or follow the INSTRUCTIONS. > are you telling me to correct her > when she ignores the sound distraction?

Where do you find that in my instructions? There’s no such thing as "effective corrections" in a physical sense. You failed to follow the TECHNIQUE. The techniques clearly states the sound distraction must not come from the same source twice in a row. Go back and read the instructions, and if you have any questions, just ask. Most of what you need to do can be done in just a few minutes, but you got to know HOWE. It’s not MAGICK. j;~}

> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn’t > come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence and > its collars. If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-( > ~misty

> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Rober Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.

I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!

I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT. Margaret Hoffman Message 1 of 19 Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work – at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn’t dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won’t bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.) P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won’t sell you my DDR! Hi Jerry, I received email from Mark Shaw on 10/6 which I just read today. Sorry I didn’t have time to get to it sooner. We have had a lot going on in our area concerning animals. We formed a new Task Force to address spay/neuter, pet overpopulation and animal abuse. I needed to do a lot of research before the first meeting and time was just not available for anything else. Anyway the letter went on to say that we are in collusion, I tried to defraud him, and have sent none of the materials that he has asked for although he has yet to furnish the P.O. Box number that he wanted them sent to in the first place. He goes on to state that I am no longer eligible for the "fictions reward." All of this is in answer to postings that prove I was "sharing" his email with you which in his opinion was a breach of good manners. His email only had terms and conditions of the reward which I would consider "public information." Be that as it may, I would like to state that you had my permission to post any email I have sent you regarding DDR including this email. I’m very sorry that you have to put up with this type of situation from someone that obviously never intended to make good on his reward offer in the first place. I had a call from a friend of mine with a very aggressive cat. I have loaned her my DDR for a few weeks to see if it will calm JR down. I will let you know the results. She goes to the same holistic vet that I go to and he is also interested. In case Mark does post to the list again I would like to say that I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it has helped my dogs and cats. I have entirely too much to do, to worry about his opinions or reward. The only reason I was willing to apply for the reward was on your behalf as I do think your product is a valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior problems. I am in Feral Cat Network (we spay and neuter approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.). I listed these not to be on an ego trip but to let Mark know that I am involved with animals and have very little time to play games with him also I would not recommend your product if I did not believe in it. Please feel free to post this email as it has no copyright on it as did Mark Shaw’s last email to me. Take care Jerry and don’t let the Mark’s of the world get you down. Elaine Thank you, Elaine. I have been trying to educate the mark’s of this world, with some occasional successes. I guess that’s variable reinforcement? Yours, Jerry. Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue writes: Sep 9, 2000 "I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful and the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right does indeed exist. I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback, but our cats and even us. She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl. It is not just my opinion that all this aggression existed before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by three vets to euthanize her. I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior problems. I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.). Thanks, Elaine, … read more »

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Not sure I understand your reply….are you telling me to correct her when she ignores the sound distraction?

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Hi, My Aunt had a Bassett Hound that had adult HW. She was instructed to give the preventative and the dog lived for 2 years with adult HW and was just fine. No telling how long it would have lived but the grandkid let it out and it was run over. Amanda and Sophie the AmStaff Princess – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > So what you seem to be saying is that stress can be just as > > bad, if not worse, for a HW+ dog, than exercise. > > Interesting. Very interesting, and not surprising at all, > > which could mean that I was right all along, despite the > > fact that I knew virtually nothing about HW up until a few > > days ago. > If I get what your original post was, it said something to the effect of > "doctor’s advocating strict rest for serious diseases are all full of it" > (if I can paraphrase ). > Often they are, but not always. You have to look at each > individual and each situation differently. > So I definitely don’t think that you could be > said to be right all along. > That’s okay, I’ll take care of saying that… > There are extremely valid reasons for strict > restriction of exercise in dogs who have been treated for heartworms, and > that strict restriction often does include a period of cage rest. > It would appear though, that many people who have treated > hw+ dogs do not adhere to this rigid cage rest policy. > That’s what I’m doing here, bringing together the people who > give the advice, and the people who treat the dogs and live > with them. We have one named Leah here who just pretty much > ignored this cage rest advice (or followed it for about a > day) and her dog seems to be doing fine. She also got bit by > her dog twice, which never would have happened if she had a > copy of my imminent dog safety video BITE THIS! but that’s > not important right now… > There are > also, of course, exceptions to the rule — dogs whose stress level would > likely be much worse if confinement were attempted than if left unconfined. > Which is *not* to say that exercise would be beneficial or good for those > dogs! > But it would be more beneficial than stress? And how do you > define exercise? Is going for a walk, exercise? Is walking > around the house, exercise? Is anything but laying in a > cramped crate exercise? > Just because it’d be difficult to restrict activity doesn’t mean it > isn’t warranted. > > btw, interesting perspective….most people say it is > > dangerous to give preventative to HW+ dogs, but you appear > > to be saying that it can be an effective, conservative > > course in some situations? > The American Heartworm Society came out with information a few years ago > stating that putting low grade, asymptomatic, heartworm positive dogs on > monthly Heartgard preventative was in fact a viable option for dogs who > would not otherwise be treated. Any microfilaria positive dogs need to be > watched very closely when starting monthly preventative, and I always warn > owners of the potential side effects (never had a reaction though). Even if > you treat the dog with an adulticide, the arsenic doesn’t kill the > microfilaria so you have to do something to kill them anyway! > Interesting. You see, what I’m trying to do is uncover the > myths and the fears which often leave people feeling > helpless and confused like deer in the headlights. I’m not > like that, but a lot of my fans here are, so bear with > them. We’re starting to get somewhere here. Okay, so what > you, CPT Deborah, DVM seem to be saying is, in fact, that > it’s not dangerous to treat HW+ dogs with preventative, in > fact, it has to be done anyway, at some point? > Interesting. > Merial has > done research which indicates that Heartgard Plus (ivermectin plus pyrantel) > has some effects on speeding up the lifecycle of the adult heartworm. > Research is still being done to determine exactly how this happens. But > while the "normal" worm life cycle is about 4-6 years, often dogs treated > with heartgard will test negative after even as short a time as 6-8 months, > and the worm’s life cycle seems to be considerably shortened. But of course > as long as there are adult worms, they *will* be causing damage. > Would you consider this to be a better and more safe and > conservative course than taking a bony, emaciated, recently > spayed ~3yo boxer bitch, filling her full of arsenic and > putting her in a cage she doesn’t like in a strange house > for the better part of a month? Because that’s what one > poster was led to believe before she showed up here asking > for advice trying to rescue a dog? She said she "knew" > that’s what she had to do. > And when I spoke up and questioned her and told her I knew > she didn’t have to do that, despite the fact that I knew > little about her or her dog, is when all this started, and > it’s starting to look that I was right all along, even > though I didn’t know much about Heartworm or Heartworm > treatment before all this began. > Am I ever wrong? I’m getting tired of being right all the > time! > > And the fact is, CPT Deborah, that Heartworm, although not > > anything anyone wants their dog to have (certainly not me), > > isn’t really that serious of a health issue for the vast > > majority of dogs who have it, and that the immediate risk of > > death in treatment of the disease, is much greater than the > > immediate risk of death by not treating the disease? > I’d have to COMPLETELY disagree with this statement!!! > So what you, Deborah CPT appear to be saying is that > Heartworm infestation poses an immediate and direct threat > to a dog’s life, much greater than any immediate and direct > effect stemming from any iatrogenically induced arsenic > toxicity and/or pulmonary embolisms. Well, I hate to have to > do this, but despite the fact that I’m not a vet, nor an > expert on Heartworms, I’m going to have to tell you that I > don’t agree with you and I’m also going to have to inform > you that I’m right about it. > Again, I submit that the majority of HW+ dogs, are in no > immediate/imminent danger of dying, and that by > automatically treating them with adulticide/arsenic, you are > automatically drastically increasing any immediate dangers > to their health. Particularly recently spayed, stressed out > and emaciated bitches who are supposed to be being > "rescued". > And as you have laid out above, it seems that a conservative > course can work very well, particularly in the type of dog > we are talking about above. > Heartworm disease is > a very very serious disease and should never be taken lightly. If left > untreated, it *will* kill the dog in most cases (especially if the dog is > not put on preventative in order to prevent further infection with worms). > Looking at the life cycle of Dirofilaria immitis, it would > be unwise to kill its host quickly, and that is, not what > heartworm does. So, while heartworm may be a serious > disease, it is no reason to panic, and no reason to rush > into treatment which may or may not be wise, or prudent. > Isn’t that right, CPT Deborah? > There are certainly dogs for whom the risk of death from treatment is higher > than the risk of immediate death from the disease, but those dogs are much > more in the minority than dogs for whom the risks of treating are far far > less than the risks of not treating. > Well, of course, if you NEVER treat the HW+ dog, it’s > eventually going to die, but that’s not the point. The point > is that HW does not equal emergency like, say stomach bloat > or parvovirus, etc… > Unfortunately I often deal with a > clientele for whom money is a concern. Treating a heartworm positive dog > costs anywhere from $200-800 depending on where you live. Heartgard runs > $26-60 per year. I’d rather have a dog who’s not going to be treated with > Immiticide be on Heartgard, than not be on any preventative at all. > So once again, Deborah DVM, I want to get this straight for > my fans out there, among whom it is very popular to say > things like "it’s dangerous to treat HW+ dogs with > preventative!" that, in fact, what you are saying, with the > blessing of your DVM community, is that treating HW+ dogs > with preventative is not only not dangerous, but sometimes > wise and effective treatment. > — > this is michael > reporting live… > http://dogtv.com > That is > definitely the lesser of two evils. > Deborah, DVM

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Since you didn’t reply to the board I posted I thought I would try you here. Jerry, I took your advice tried to use this method while we were out on our hike, but it didn’t work. My girl’s friend catches a scent and runs off trail, so I thought I would try it there. Her owner said sure, fine when I asked her if I could try this method on her dog, with a little distain–like MYOB already kind of attitude (ok a little strain on the relationship but if sound distraction worked that would go away, and you seemed so sure that it would work–100%). The first time the dog looked as if she was about to run off trail I whistled and she didn’t go [yea!] I gave lots of praise for an extended period of time and she forgot about running off, the second, third and fourth time it was like she didn’t even hear me–a little pause then off into the woods. The whole time her owner looking at me w/that "I told you so" smirk. I don’t think it was the whistle, whistling is a sound she doesn’t normally hear–her owner can’t whistle. And it did work to get her attention, she just ignored it. What do you do when the dog hears the sound distraction, then ignores it? I can’t mention training again b/c "she told me so" and to further get into her business will really, really strain our relationship. I’m going to take my DH’s advice now, and mind my own business. But for future reference, what do you do when the dog ignores the sound distraction?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Soup, > > > So what you seem to be saying is that stress can be just as > > > bad, if not worse, for a HW+ dog, than exercise. > I’d go one step further, and lay the blame for many physical and most > temperament and behavior problems directly as result of stress caused by > corrections and crating and inappropriate or forced control. > > > Interesting. Very interesting, and not surprising at all, > Probably not. > > > which could mean that I was right all along, despite the > > > fact that I knew virtually nothing about HW up until a few > > > days ago. > Common sense isn’t so common anyMOORE, so it seems. I mean, who really > believes that shocking and twisting and pinching ears and beating dogs > with sticks is MOTIVATION? That’s HOWE our "experts" cindymooreon of our > illustrious "faqs" pages at k9 web (yeah, let’s hold THEIR feet to the > fire, the miserables s.o.b.’s) and lying frosty dahl in her stick fetch > think. Both articles will be reposted below for your edification and > embarrassment and hopefully you’ll be disgusted enough to get off your > fat lazy arses and speak out to put a stop to our dog abusing "experts" > or stick your head up so I can rip it off for you publicly and identify > you as perpetuating the problem. > Take your pick, pet professionals… You’re either part of the problem > or the solution. I’m gonna turn you over and everybody’s gonna have a > look. We’ll figure it out with or without your cooperation. > > If I get what your original post was, it said something to the > effect > > of "doctor’s advocating strict rest for serious diseases are all > full > > of it" (if I can paraphrase ). > Seems we tend to react out of fear, rather than to rational thinking. > Often they are, but not always. You have to look at each > individual and each situation differently. > Within limits, yes. > > So I definitely don’t think that you could be > > said to be right all along. > That’s okay, I’ll take care of saying that… > When the smoke clears we’ll be forgotten and our "experts" will lay > claim to breakthrough ideas all on their own. > That’s fine by me, as long as they get a clue from somewhere. Who gets > credit for it is only of concern to the guys with the sheepskins on > their walls and their expert dog trainers like boob maida, uncle matty, > cap’n haggarty, and our Gang Of Thugs. > > There are extremely valid reasons for strict restriction of exercise > > in dogs who have been treated for heartworms, and > > that strict restriction often does include a period of cage rest. > No doubt. But just as we try to force control of behavior probelms, they > try to force control of the physical body, sometimes killing it, just as > we do when we correct dogs and make them dangerous and untrustworthy and > kill them, as janet boss does and you can read all about it in the > thread "interested in hearing." > It would appear though, that many people who have treated > hw+ dogs do not adhere to this rigid cage rest policy. > That’s because that rigid cage rest is only appropriate for some > multiple dog households and kennels where dogs are outside in runs and > lots of commotion at feeding time, etc. > That’s what I’m doing here, bringing together the people who > give the advice, and the people who treat the dogs and live > with them. We have one named Leah here who just pretty much > ignored this cage rest advice (or followed it for about a > day) and her dog seems to be doing fine. > That’s an interesting case. A dog lover, wanting to get involved with > training, takes a couple puppy classes and is taught to bribe and jerk > and choke her dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar and then has > months and months of behavior problems and private training to learn to > HURT her dog MOORE, learned to be sneaky, trying to make the dog think > every time she feels pain and fear, that she’s done it to herself, as > our professora "chin cuff don’t mean slap" gingold did to teach her dog > to bash her teeth down her throat on a recall, and made HER think it was > an accident, as she’d taught him by jerking and choking him and trying > to make him think it was his fault for not paying attention. > Allelomimetic behavior at it’s very best, People. That’s the result of > all of our little "accidental" pains we cause our dog in our infantile > attempts to force control like stepping on toes and "leash pops" and > kneeing dogs in the chest as cindymooreon teaches to defend us from > attempts at BONDING and communication from our dogs, not realizing dogs > don’t do these behaviors by accident or coincidence…People. > She also got bit by her dog twice, > That was predictable, but she dismisses the evidence of the error of her > ways and believes these attacks were justified and attributable to > causes other than disrespect and fear due to her HURTING Madigan from > the git go. > which never would have happened if she had a > copy of my imminent dog safety video BITE THIS! but that’s > not important right now… > It never would have happened if she hadn’t been taught to force and hurt > and intimidate her dog. This has been brewing since day one. It was only > a couple weeks ago leah determined that she was going to take out > another link from her pronged spiked pinch choke collar and was going to > hurt Madigan the entire time they’re on lead, if she can’t learn not to > pull. > Ever heard of positive thigmotaxis, folksies??? Figure it out, damnit. > > There are also, of course, exceptions to the rule — > That’s right. There’s ALWAYS exceptions to every rule, EXCEPT ONE. > That rule is, don’t freaking hurt, confront, or intmidate dogs unless > you want to teach them to return the favor IN SPADES. > That means NO confrontation. NO negative interaction. NO fear. NO force. > NO intimidation. NO excuses NO HOWE. > > dogs whose stress level would likely be much worse if > > confinement were attempted than if left unconfined. > Absolutely. But here we’ve got another Catch22 situation. Our "expert" > dog trainers and advisors teach people to crate dogs to force control of > behaviors because they are not experts and they do not have effective > training methods which is WHY their dogs are out of control in the first > place, which is why they’re crating them, which makes untrained dogs > even MOORE out of control and the wheels of out of control behaviors are > greased for a long time, with out of control behaviors being replaced by > more varied and often worse out of control behaviors as anxiety relief > mechanisms. > That’s why our "experts" have that little "adolescent rebellious stage" > they all expect around eight to eighteen months of age. The dog is > rebelling to inappropriate forced control. The physical domination of > puppy hood is NATURALLY challenged by the pups to force them from the > the pack to form their own. > That’s why I don’t force or physically dominate dogs. That’s why our > "experts" find they occasionally have to kill perhaps their top 10% of > their stock, because they’re challenging authority, as NATURE INTENDED > to protect the gene pool, folksies… It’s PREDICTABLE that the pup is > going to challenge your "authority," because your authority doesn’t > exist under Natural Law. Your "authority" only extends to the limits of > your leash and choke collar or the range of your shocking devices. > > Which is *not* to say that exercise would be beneficial or good for > >those dogs! > What you consider exercise may vary greatly from what I consider > exercise. Stress is exercise, in much the same ways as a physical > workout, except without the RELEASE of the physical burn. Weigh the > effects in a lab and you’ll see. > But it would be more beneficial than stress? > I think getting scolded for putting a mouth on a chair leg is likely to > be more stressful than a reasonable casual walk, don’t you agree? > And how do you define exercise? > All depends on HOWE you want to develop. I prefer internal > exercises and a small amount of stretching and daily > aerobics…, performed mostly

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> And then disgorged this gem…

Oh, I like that (just so long as its not used in reference to my posts lol). — Tara O. Amie & Summer: http://www.geocities.com/tara29401/index.html alt.tv.gilmore-girls FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/tara29401/alt.tv.gilmore-girls_faq.htm

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> This dud of a person…aka "Michael"…has no fans. He has no job and relies > on silly posts here to justify his pathetic life. Ask any shrink: if a > person needs to constantly make claims about how great he is, he’s far from > great. > This Michael character is simply insane.

Your call is very important to us and we value you as a loyal viewer. We are always looking to improve community relations here at dogtv.com networks, and we’ll be sure to forward your memo to the appropriate department so we can adequately address your concerns in a timely and expeditious manner. — the management responding live… http://dogtv.com

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This dud of a person…aka "Michael"…has no fans. He has no job and relies on silly posts here to justify his pathetic life. Ask any shrink: if a person needs to constantly make claims about how great he is, he’s far from great. This Michael character is simply insane.

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> > Am I ever wrong? I’m getting tired of being right all the > time! > And then disgorged this gem… > I want to get this straight for my fans out there, > I doubt you have ANY fans out there at all, with the possible > exception of a certain pharisaical cretin whose profuse posting of > hyperbole, is completely unubstantiated.

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> Am I ever wrong? I’m getting tired of being right all the > time! > And then disgorged this gem… > I want to get this straight for my fans out there, > I doubt you have ANY fans out there at all, with the possible > exception of a certain pharisaical cretin whose profuse posting of > hyperbole, is completely unubstantiated.

Hello bud, Let’s talk dog training. You miserable s.o.b. can’t justify ANYTHING in the following QUOTES from our lying, dog abusing Thug "experts:" Here. This is the state of the art of dog training around here: Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit. "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." lyingfrosty dahl’s stick fetch: "By now the dog is lunging for the dummy. Stick fetch accomplishes two things: it teaches the dog that distractions are no excuse to ignore a "fetch" command and it transfers much of the momentum- producing power of the ear pinch to the stick, thus providing a basis for force-on-back. Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Don’t make the stick any more obvious than it has to be. With the dog at heel, toss the dummy about three feet in front of the dog. With your hand on the collar and ear, say, "fetch." Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog, sometimes not hitting it. Again, you want to make the dog think that by going fast it can avoid the stick. As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. Usually not many sessions are needed (maybe 3-6). When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished–you have successfully force-fetched your retriever. Many trainers follow force-fetching with a "walking fetch" drill where several dummies are lying on the ground, ten feet or more apart. Trainer approaches dummies with dog at heel and says, "fetch" as dog’s attention focuses on the first dummy. Any refusals are corrected with the ear pinch. After the dog sits to deliver, the trainer can drop the dummy behind the dog for a later circuit. When performance is smooth, the stick can be added just as in the fetch from a sitting position. If the previous steps have been carefully done, the dog will soon be lunging eagerly for each dummy as soon as it sees it. We then work on getting the dog to wait until it is commanded to "fetch," using repeated "heel" commands and jerks on the lead. Generally we don’t pursue this to the point where it is absolute–the dog’s getting the idea is enough. Not all youngsters can take heavy drilling on contradictory ideas such as "go" and "don’t go." "Happy bumpers" can also be good for the dog’s attitude. The walking fetch drill makes the transition to picking up a dummy the dog finds on the ground, not only one which has just been thrown or placed by the trainer. Now the dog can be sent to a pile, the foundation for forcing on "back" and for blind retrieves. It can be sent, with appropriate hand signals, to side and back piles, making an introduction to casting. And of course, the dog should deliver perfectly and you, as trainer, have the tools to enforce this: command "hold" as the dog emerges from water and considers putting the bird down to shake, and pinch its ear if a dummy or bird is ever dropped. While force-fetching is now complete, training has become more varied and interesting and we are sure you will want to continue. http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html Cindymooreon’s forced fetch: What is Force Fetching All About? by Cindy Tittle Moore Copyright 1997,1998 by the author; all rights reserved. THE FORCE FETCH Alright! Now you are (finally) ready to force fetch your dog. I repeat, you want to have an experienced person help you out, someone who has already force fetched her own dogs whether for obedience or field. This step in the training entails what is termed avoidance behavior. In a nutshell, the dog is taught how to "turn off" a negative stimulus. He is carefully taught that he has complete control over it. This is a very effective way of teaching, but does require a more astute sense of timing than some other training methods and is very difficult for some people to do, for a variety of reasons. However, if the dog properly knows HOLD at this point, it’s easily done with a minimum of fuss. Return to your quiet starting place, with the dog on a collar and leash in front of you, sitting quietly. Instead of opening his mouth as you have been for the HOLD, put your hand through the dog’s collar (to hold him steady) and with your thumb and forefinger pinch the tip of his ears and say TAKE IT (or FETCH, or whatever you want) Watch his mouth closely — the moment he opens his mouth, pop that dumbbell in, let go of his ear but not the collar, and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. Do this three or four times per session. When he is opening his mouth in anticipation of the dumbbell, the next step is to hold the dumbbell just past his lips. This next step is for him to move his head forward that inch (or half inch) necessary to get the dumbbell. At this point, he has a pretty good notion that getting that darned thing into his mouth is the way to turn off the ear pinch. Most dogs will lean forward and get it. That’s his second milestone! Praise, praise, praise and repeat three or four times this session. Remember, I said these sessions were no more than 5 minutes or so each. That’s still true. Gradually extend the distance so he has to reach further to get it. Now here is where a few subtleties come into play. It’s not enough for him to merely reach out and grab it. You want him to commit to getting it. You want him to be intent on getting it. If he sort of limply reaches over and gets it, that’s not what you want. If you pinch him but have to drag him toward the dumbbell, that’s not what you want either. We’re back to the visualization. What do you want him to do? You want him to, if necessary, bust through just about anything to get that dumbbell. So hold on to that collar until you feel him pulling out of it to get that. That’s his committment. You want to say TAKE IT and have him just about explode out to get the dumbbell. As you get further along in this, you will release him when he’s made a good committment — this will help shape a speedy response nicely. I think you can see why it helps to have an experienced person around when you are doing this! It can be difficult to keep all these things in mind when you are actually sitting there with a dog in your hands. About the ear pinch: You must keep the pressure up until the instant he has the dumbbell securely in his mouth. Many people have problems getting the pinch right, either they do not pinch enough, or they have a very stoic dog in which case case a collar may be needed to help make the pinch more effective. Also some dogs are screamers, and if they find that they can stop the pinching by screaming, they’ve learned the avoidance technique just fine — but not with the behavior you had in mind! Don’t let your dog scream. Use your hand to hold his muzzle closed and tell him to quit moaning. Some dogs will collapse into a heap. Don’t let them do that, that’s why your hand is in the collar. Hold them up and get them back into a sitting position. What your dog is doing is trying to find other ways of avoiding the ear pinch. You need to be firm and consistent and demonstrate that getting the dumbbell is the only means of avoidance. Remember to keep him under control. When he gets that dumbbell in his mouth, pull him gently around back to you and sit him back down. You may in fact want to sit him at your side in the heel position (whether or not he actually knows the heel position), hold the dumbbell in front of him, command him to take it and then pull him back to a front or finish position as you wish. The pattern will do him good later. The next major milestone is putting the dumbbell on the ground for him to pick up. For many dogs this can be a big deal and may be difficult. Set the dumbbell on the ground just in front of them, with your hand on the dumbbell. He may not reach for it, he may refuse — keep up the ear pressure until he finally picks it up. If he really doesn’t seem to understand this, then break this down into an intermediate step where you hold the dumbbell, but about 1/2 way between the ground and his mouth. Once he’s picked the dumbbell off the ground, that’s a major milestone and you are just about home free. As before slowly place the dumbbell further away on the ground in front of him. Make sure he is pulling out of your hold on the collar before you let him pick the dumbbell up. If he drops the dumbbell … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So what you seem to be saying is that stress can be just as > bad, if not worse, for a HW+ dog, than exercise. > Interesting. Very interesting, and not surprising at all, > which could mean that I was right all along, despite the > fact that I knew virtually nothing about HW up until a few > days ago. > If I get what your original post was, it said something to the effect of > "doctor’s advocating strict rest for serious diseases are all full of it" > (if I can paraphrase ).

Often they are, but not always. You have to look at each individual and each situation differently. > So I definitely don’t think that you could be > said to be right all along.

That’s okay, I’ll take care of saying that… > There are extremely valid reasons for strict > restriction of exercise in dogs who have been treated for heartworms, and > that strict restriction often does include a period of cage rest.

It would appear though, that many people who have treated hw+ dogs do not adhere to this rigid cage rest policy. That’s what I’m doing here, bringing together the people who give the advice, and the people who treat the dogs and live with them. We have one named Leah here who just pretty much ignored this cage rest advice (or followed it for about a day) and her dog seems to be doing fine. She also got bit by her dog twice, which never would have happened if she had a copy of my imminent dog safety video BITE THIS! but that’s not important right now… > There are > also, of course, exceptions to the rule — dogs whose stress level would > likely be much worse if confinement were attempted than if left unconfined. > Which is *not* to say that exercise would be beneficial or good for those > dogs!

But it would be more beneficial than stress? And how do you define exercise? Is going for a walk, exercise? Is walking around the house, exercise? Is anything but laying in a cramped crate exercise? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just because it’d be difficult to restrict activity doesn’t mean it > isn’t warranted. > btw, interesting perspective….most people say it is > dangerous to give preventative to HW+ dogs, but you appear > to be saying that it can be an effective, conservative > course in some situations? > The American Heartworm Society came out with information a few years ago > stating that putting low grade, asymptomatic, heartworm positive dogs on > monthly Heartgard preventative was in fact a viable option for dogs who > would not otherwise be treated. Any microfilaria positive dogs need to be > watched very closely when starting monthly preventative, and I always warn > owners of the potential side effects (never had a reaction though). Even if > you treat the dog with an adulticide, the arsenic doesn’t kill the > microfilaria so you have to do something to kill them anyway!

Interesting. You see, what I’m trying to do is uncover the myths and the fears which often leave people feeling helpless and confused like deer in the headlights. I’m not like that, but a lot of my fans here are, so bear with them. We’re starting to get somewhere here. Okay, so what you, CPT Deborah, DVM seem to be saying is, in fact, that it’s not dangerous to treat HW+ dogs with preventative, in fact, it has to be done anyway, at some point? Interesting. > Merial has > done research which indicates that Heartgard Plus (ivermectin plus pyrantel) > has some effects on speeding up the lifecycle of the adult heartworm. > Research is still being done to determine exactly how this happens. But > while the "normal" worm life cycle is about 4-6 years, often dogs treated > with heartgard will test negative after even as short a time as 6-8 months, > and the worm’s life cycle seems to be considerably shortened. But of course > as long as there are adult worms, they *will* be causing damage.

Would you consider this to be a better and more safe and conservative course than taking a bony, emaciated, recently spayed ~3yo boxer bitch, filling her full of arsenic and putting her in a cage she doesn’t like in a strange house for the better part of a month? Because that’s what one poster was led to believe before she showed up here asking for advice trying to rescue a dog? She said she "knew" that’s what she had to do. And when I spoke up and questioned her and told her I knew she didn’t have to do that, despite the fact that I knew little about her or her dog, is when all this started, and it’s starting to look that I was right all along, even though I didn’t know much about Heartworm or Heartworm treatment before all this began. Am I ever wrong? I’m getting tired of being right all the time! > And the fact is, CPT Deborah, that Heartworm, although not > anything anyone wants their dog to have (certainly not me), > isn’t really that serious of a health issue for the vast > majority of dogs who have it, and that the immediate risk of > death in treatment of the disease, is much greater than the > immediate risk of death by not treating the disease? > I’d have to COMPLETELY disagree with this statement!!!

So what you, Deborah CPT appear to be saying is that Heartworm infestation poses an immediate and direct threat to a dog’s life, much greater than any immediate and direct effect stemming from any iatrogenically induced arsenic toxicity and/or pulmonary embolisms. Well, I hate to have to do this, but despite the fact that I’m not a vet, nor an expert on Heartworms, I’m going to have to tell you that I don’t agree with you and I’m also going to have to inform you that I’m right about it. Again, I submit that the majority of HW+ dogs, are in no immediate/imminent danger of dying, and that by automatically treating them with adulticide/arsenic, you are automatically drastically increasing any immediate dangers to their health. Particularly recently spayed, stressed out and emaciated bitches who are supposed to be being "rescued". And as you have laid out above, it seems that a conservative course can work very well, particularly in the type of dog we are talking about above. > Heartworm disease is > a very very serious disease and should never be taken lightly. If left > untreated, it *will* kill the dog in most cases (especially if the dog is > not put on preventative in order to prevent further infection with worms).

Looking at the life cycle of Dirofilaria immitis, it would be unwise to kill its host quickly, and that is, not what heartworm does. So, while heartworm may be a serious disease, it is no reason to panic, and no reason to rush into treatment which may or may not be wise, or prudent. Isn’t that right, CPT Deborah? > There are certainly dogs for whom the risk of death from treatment is higher > than the risk of immediate death from the disease, but those dogs are much > more in the minority than dogs for whom the risks of treating are far far > less than the risks of not treating.

Well, of course, if you NEVER treat the HW+ dog, it’s eventually going to die, but that’s not the point. The point is that HW does not equal emergency like, say stomach bloat or parvovirus, etc… > Unfortunately I often deal with a > clientele for whom money is a concern. Treating a heartworm positive dog > costs anywhere from $200-800 depending on where you live. Heartgard runs > $26-60 per year. I’d rather have a dog who’s not going to be treated with > Immiticide be on Heartgard, than not be on any preventative at all.

So once again, Deborah DVM, I want to get this straight for my fans out there, among whom it is very popular to say things like "it’s dangerous to treat HW+ dogs with preventative!" that, in fact, what you are saying, with the blessing of your DVM community, is that treating HW+ dogs with preventative is not only not dangerous, but sometimes wise and effective treatment. — this is michael reporting live… http://dogtv.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> That is > definitely the lesser of two evils. > Deborah, DVM

Response:

> Am I ever wrong? I’m getting tired of being right all the > time!

And then disgorged this gem… > I want to get this straight for my fans out there,

I doubt you have ANY fans out there at all, with the possible exception of a certain pharisaical cretin whose profuse posting of hyperbole, is completely unubstantiated.

Response:

Hello Soup,

> > So what you seem to be saying is that stress can be just as > > bad, if not worse, for a HW+ dog, than exercise.

I’d go one step further, and lay the blame for many physical and most temperament and behavior problems directly as result of stress caused by corrections and crating and inappropriate or forced control. > > Interesting. Very interesting, and not surprising at all,

Probably not. > > which could mean that I was right all along, despite the > > fact that I knew virtually nothing about HW up until a few > > days ago.

Common sense isn’t so common anyMOORE, so it seems. I mean, who really believes that shocking and twisting and pinching ears and beating dogs with sticks is MOTIVATION? That’s HOWE our "experts" cindymooreon of our illustrious "faqs" pages at k9 web (yeah, let’s hold THEIR feet to the fire, the miserables s.o.b.’s) and lying frosty dahl in her stick fetch think. Both articles will be reposted below for your edification and embarrassment and hopefully you’ll be disgusted enough to get off your fat lazy arses and speak out to put a stop to our dog abusing "experts" or stick your head up so I can rip it off for you publicly and identify you as perpetuating the problem. Take your pick, pet professionals… You’re either part of the problem or the solution. I’m gonna turn you over and everybody’s gonna have a look. We’ll figure it out with or without your cooperation. > If I get what your original post was, it said something to the effect > of "doctor’s advocating strict rest for serious diseases are all full > of it" (if I can paraphrase ).

Seems we tend to react out of fear, rather than to rational thinking. > Often they are, but not always. You have to look at each > individual and each situation differently.

Within limits, yes. > So I definitely don’t think that you could be > said to be right all along. > That’s okay, I’ll take care of saying that…

When the smoke clears we’ll be forgotten and our "experts" will lay claim to breakthrough ideas all on their own. That’s fine by me, as long as they get a clue from somewhere. Who gets credit for it is only of concern to the guys with the sheepskins on their walls and their expert dog trainers like boob maida, uncle matty, cap’n haggarty, and our Gang Of Thugs. > There are extremely valid reasons for strict restriction of exercise > in dogs who have been treated for heartworms, and > that strict restriction often does include a period of cage rest.

No doubt. But just as we try to force control of behavior probelms, they try to force control of the physical body, sometimes killing it, just as we do when we correct dogs and make them dangerous and untrustworthy and kill them, as janet boss does and you can read all about it in the thread "interested in hearing." > It would appear though, that many people who have treated > hw+ dogs do not adhere to this rigid cage rest policy.

That’s because that rigid cage rest is only appropriate for some multiple dog households and kennels where dogs are outside in runs and lots of commotion at feeding time, etc. > That’s what I’m doing here, bringing together the people who > give the advice, and the people who treat the dogs and live > with them. We have one named Leah here who just pretty much > ignored this cage rest advice (or followed it for about a > day) and her dog seems to be doing fine.

That’s an interesting case. A dog lover, wanting to get involved with training, takes a couple puppy classes and is taught to bribe and jerk and choke her dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke collar and then has months and months of behavior problems and private training to learn to HURT her dog MOORE, learned to be sneaky, trying to make the dog think every time she feels pain and fear, that she’s done it to herself, as our professora "chin cuff don’t mean slap" gingold did to teach her dog to bash her teeth down her throat on a recall, and made HER think it was an accident, as she’d taught him by jerking and choking him and trying to make him think it was his fault for not paying attention. Allelomimetic behavior at it’s very best, People. That’s the result of all of our little "accidental" pains we cause our dog in our infantile attempts to force control like stepping on toes and "leash pops" and kneeing dogs in the chest as cindymooreon teaches to defend us from attempts at BONDING and communication from our dogs, not realizing dogs don’t do these behaviors by accident or coincidence…People. > She also got bit by her dog twice,

That was predictable, but she dismisses the evidence of the error of her ways and believes these attacks were justified and attributable to causes other than disrespect and fear due to her HURTING Madigan from the git go. > which never would have happened if she had a > copy of my imminent dog safety video BITE THIS! but that’s > not important right now…

It never would have happened if she hadn’t been taught to force and hurt and intimidate her dog. This has been brewing since day one. It was only a couple weeks ago leah determined that she was going to take out another link from her pronged spiked pinch choke collar and was going to hurt Madigan the entire time they’re on lead, if she can’t learn not to pull. Ever heard of positive thigmotaxis, folksies??? Figure it out, damnit. > There are also, of course, exceptions to the rule —

That’s right. There’s ALWAYS exceptions to every rule, EXCEPT ONE. That rule is, don’t freaking hurt, confront, or intmidate dogs unless you want to teach them to return the favor IN SPADES. That means NO confrontation. NO negative interaction. NO fear. NO force. NO intimidation. NO excuses NO HOWE. > dogs whose stress level would likely be much worse if > confinement were attempted than if left unconfined.

Absolutely. But here we’ve got another Catch22 situation. Our "expert" dog trainers and advisors teach people to crate dogs to force control of behaviors because they are not experts and they do not have effective training methods which is WHY their dogs are out of control in the first place, which is why they’re crating them, which makes untrained dogs even MOORE out of control and the wheels of out of control behaviors are greased for a long time, with out of control behaviors being replaced by more varied and often worse out of control behaviors as anxiety relief mechanisms. That’s why our "experts" have that little "adolescent rebellious stage" they all expect around eight to eighteen months of age. The dog is rebelling to inappropriate forced control. The physical domination of puppy hood is NATURALLY challenged by the pups to force them from the the pack to form their own. That’s why I don’t force or physically dominate dogs. That’s why our "experts" find they occasionally have to kill perhaps their top 10% of their stock, because they’re challenging authority, as NATURE INTENDED to protect the gene pool, folksies… It’s PREDICTABLE that the pup is going to challenge your "authority," because your authority doesn’t exist under Natural Law. Your "authority" only extends to the limits of your leash and choke collar or the range of your shocking devices. > Which is *not* to say that exercise would be beneficial or good for >those dogs!

What you consider exercise may vary greatly from what I consider exercise. Stress is exercise, in much the same ways as a physical workout, except without the RELEASE of the physical burn. Weigh the effects in a lab and you’ll see. > But it would be more beneficial than stress?

I think getting scolded for putting a mouth on a chair leg is likely to be more stressful than a reasonable casual walk, don’t you agree? > And how do you define exercise?

All depends on HOWE you want to develop. I prefer internal exercises and a small amount of stretching and daily aerobics…, performed mostly in bed. > Is going for a walk, exercise?

Today, for me, yeah. That’s all I should be taking in, because I’ve not been keeping in top shape like when I was diving every day. I think I’d probably buy the farm if I dove into 4′ surf without reconditioning myself with a few weeks of reasonable, incrementally increasing, strenuous exercise first. > Is walking around the house, exercise?

Today for me it is, but not when I was diving every day. > Is anything but laying in a cramped crate exercise?

Yes. And we need an amount of daily exercise, even if it’s just to stand up and walk around the house a couple times a day. > Just because it’d be difficult to restrict activity doesn’t mean it > isn’t warranted.

It might be unwarranted if the dog is objecting to confinement. You can’t take an untrained out of control dog and lock them in a crate and expect them not to be HYPER when you take them out. Just think about it… Every Yin has its Yang. > > btw, interesting perspective….most people say it is > > dangerous to give preventative to HW+ dogs, but you appear > > to be saying that it can be an effective, conservative > > course in some situations?

Sometimes things aren’t always as they appear… <snip HW details> > Interesting. You see, what I’m trying to do is uncover the > myths and the fears which often leave people feeling > helpless and confused like deer in the headlights.

We’re talking about the same fear based POV that confounds our "experts" when they talk about behavior problems as well. > I’m not like that, but a lot of my fans here are,

They react from their lowest gut level of fear and self concern, like fearful furry little woodslands creatures. > so bear with them.

No. We can’t expect our "experts" running on empty to use the functional reserve capacities they’ve never exercised; they’ve never conditioned … read more »