Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello sionnach, > That’s correct. And, although I am rude to the vicious pigs that deserve it, I > am a pretty competent dog trainer, and give better advice than the bunch of you > pigs put together, and am not interested in playing your foolish games. You are > interested in backing up a proven liar, who has nothing to contribute, in order > to help "protect" the abusive assholes like yourself that I am embarrassing to > freaking death.

   Thank you, Jerry, for so quickly proving a portion of my point #3- that you are known for making up accusations of abuse. <G> Now, since you’ve accused me of being an "abusive asshole", howsabout finding a post of mine to prove your claim? Happy Hunting! Oh yeah- let me re-extend the invitation I made to you the last time you accused me of being abusive:  If you’re interested in seeing how I deal with my dogs in REAL LIFE, and the results of my style of training, you (and anyone else who’s interested) are more than welcome to attend the NADAC agility trial which will be held next Saturday and Sunday (Nov. 13 & 14) at the Carroll County Indoor Sports Center in Westminster, Maryland. The CCISC is on Old Main Street, just off of I-97, where I-97 crosses I-140. Spectators are always welcome, though it’s better to leave dogs at home (or in the car) unless they are VERY well-behaved- the spectator area’s a bit crowded.  Don’t forget, Jerry, that agility competition requires guiding one’s dog- WITHOUT LEASH OR COLLAR-  over an obstacle course at a high rate of speed, by voice and hand signals only. Consequently, it also requires an extremely high degree of trust and communication in the dog/human partnership….   Cheers Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello sionnach, > That’s correct. And, although I am rude to the vicious pigs that deserve > it, I > am a pretty competent dog trainer, and give better advice than the bunch > of you > pigs put together, and am not interested in playing your foolish games. > You are > interested in backing up a proven liar, who has nothing to contribute, in > order > to help "protect" the abusive assholes like yourself that I am > embarrassing to > freaking death. >    Thank you, Jerry, for so quickly proving a portion of my point #3- that > you are known for making up accusations of abuse.

You don’t consider such handling and training "methods" as pinching ears, pushing thumb tacks into them, twisting toes, choking, jerking, scruff shaking, shocking, and hanging dogs as abusive? I didn’t make that up, it’s taught right here. That’s why I’m here. > <G> Now, since you’ve accused me of being an "abusive asshole", > hows                about finding a post of mine > to prove your claim? Happy Hunting!

I don’t have to hunt for your old posts. You are either part of the solution, or part of the problem. There is no middle ground, unless you just don’t know anything about the subject… If you want to give good, decent, humane dog training advice, I’m not going to criticize you, because there won’t be anything to criticize, huh?. But if you think that your little group of pigs in this filthy freaking pig sty are going to deter me from making the facts known, and prevent me from changing the facts as you have known them to be here, then you got another think coming… I’m not playing games here, dogs lives depend on the INFORMATION that is coming from you shitbirds, and if you can’t provide decent information, then go someplace where that kind of crap is appreciated, because it is not appropriate here. > Oh yeah- let me re-extend the invitation I made to you the last time you > accused me of being abusive:  If you’re interested in seeing how I deal with > my dogs in REAL LIFE, and the results of my style of training,

I’m not interested in the results of your training. I’m interested in Howe you arrived at those results… and improving them. > you (and > anyone else who’s interested) are more than welcome to attend the NADAC > agility trial

No thanks. I wasn’t born yesterday. I’d rather be observing you train a green dog when you don’t think anyone is watching…. That would be far more telling than watching a trained dog do something he’s been doing month, after month. > which will be held next Saturday and Sunday (Nov. 13 & 14) at > the Carroll County Indoor Sports Center in Westminster, Maryland. The CCISC > is on Old Main Street, just off of I-97, where I-97 crosses I-140. > Spectators are always welcome, though it’s better to leave dogs at home (or > in the car) > unless they are VERY well-behaved- the spectator area’s a bit crowded.

Enjoy the event, and good luck. I don’t mean you any ill will. I only mean to stop abuse and ignorance here. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. You’ve accused me of disinformation. I suggest that you and your pals are interested in disinformation to avoid SCRUTINY. We’re talking about ETHICS. If you are not part of the problem, than you shouldn’t have any gripe with me. If you are part of the problem, then that would explain why you are throwing a red herring around. You’ve been defending your chump chums here, and saying that you don’t do those things that I point out about them. If you do not practice those behaviors, then perhaps you’d do well to address your pals here, instead of attacking me, trying to defend them. Since you do not condemn them, but do condemn me, that only can lead to one conclusion. That is, you support their abuse. Therefore, you are no better than them, in fact, you are worse than them, because they could not continue their barbaric practices without your acceptance of it. These are your pals? Then why don’t you speak out, just to help them improve themselves? You say you are a competitor that doesn’t use fear and force to train? Why don’t you speak up, when your pals here say that there are no competitors getting titles that do not use force in training? I smell a stinking rat, if you want to know the truth… >  Don’t forget, Jerry, that agility competition requires guiding one’s > dog- WITHOUT LEASH OR COLLAR-  over an obstacle course at a high > rate of speed, by voice and hand signals only.

I wouldn’t know anything about sports. My protection dogs have to work under real life situations, where points don’t count, and they play for keeps, winner takes all, loser none. No one I’ve ever heard of has ever had a weave pole pull a gun on them, or try to kidnap their kids. > Consequently, it also > requires an extremely high degree of trust and communication in the > dog/human > partnership….

I wouldn’t know about that. My criteria for trust and communication are a lot more stringent. That’s why I’m here. Good luck at your event.  If you are interested in improving your performance, I suggest you read and practice the exercises in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at   http://www.doggdoright.com >   Cheers > Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) > Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From > Hell) > Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament > Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) > we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92

DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

> Hi ya!

  No, Jerry, *I* didn’t say, that, YOU did. But you did say: > > to help "protect" the abusive assholes like yourself that I am > embarrassing to  freaking death.

  To which *I* responded: >    Thank you, Jerry, for so quickly proving a portion of my point #3- that > you are well known for making up accusations of abuse. <G> Now, since you’ve > accused me of being an "abusive asshole", howsabout finding a post of mine > to prove your claim? Happy Hunting!

  You replied: > I don’t have to hunt. You are either part of the solution, or part of the > problem. There is no middle ground, unless you just don’t know anything about > the subject…

     Nice backpedaling and ducking the point, Jerry. You called me an abusive asshole. I’d like to know exactly WHAT you are basing this statement on. If you can’t find anything to prop up this statement, I want an APOLOGY. I’m sick and tired of seeing you accuse ANYONE who disagrees with you in ANY way of abusing dogs. Please either prove your claim, or apologise for slandering me. > Enjoy the event, and good luck. I don’t mean you any ill will.

  Oh really? Well, I’m sorry, but calling someone a "pig" and an "abusive asshole" displays an extraordinary amount of ill will. Especially since I was merely pointing out to a busybody newbie that it’s a not a good idea to try to regulate things in here. > I only mean to  stop abuse and ignorance here.

   Oh really? Then why do you ignorantly abuse people you know NOTHING about? You don’t know me, have never met me, have never seen my dogs, and have apparently never read any of my posts, but you were all too ready to call me names ("pig", remember?)  and accuse me of being abusive- and NOT for the first time!- merely because I stated that you are known for insulting people. That’s a fact. You DO insult people, and claim that they abuse dogs, on a daily basis. >  Don’t forget, Jerry, that agility competition requires controlling one’s > dog WITHOUT LEASH OR COLLAR,  at a high rate of speed, by voice and hand > signals only. Consequently, it also requires an extremely high degree of > trust and communication in the dog/human partnership….

  To which you responded, in a non-sequiter fashion: > Good luck. If you are interested in improving your performance, I suggest you > read and practice the exercises in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual > available for free at  http://www.doggdoright.com

   Jerry, you missed the point. The point is- if I’m such an "pig" and "abusive asshole", how, pray tell, do you suppose I manage to sucessfully do agility? Once again, either support your accusation of abuse, or apologise and retract it.   As to your manual: I read it a LONG time ago- a couple of years ago, when you first showed up on this newsgroup- and I’m sorry, but I’m not impressed. Nothing new in there, and a technique (using the shaker can) that *would* be abusive if used with one of my dogs. Not to mention the related page which wants to sell an electronic device, "made by elves", which allegedly solves all dog-related problems merely by turning it on in the dog’s vicinity… sorry, but that kind of tends to make anyone with common sense disregard *any* information related to it.    Besides, I get all the help I need for improving my performance in agility from my coach, Debi Hutchinson. If you want a reference for *her*- try Karen Pryor’s web site. You DO know who Karen is, don’t you?  Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92

Response:

> > Hi ya! >   No, Jerry, *I* didn’t say, that, YOU did.

Right. Pardon, that was an obvious error. > But you did say: > > > to help "protect" the abusive assholes like yourself that I am > > embarrassing to  freaking death. >   To which *I* responded: > >    Thank you, Jerry, for so quickly proving a portion of my point #3- > that > > you are well known for making up accusations of abuse. <G> Now, since > you’ve > > accused me of being an "abusive asshole", howsabout finding a post of > mine > > to prove your claim? Happy Hunting!

Wait. You condone the abuses talked about here. You condemn me. What makes you think that you are any better than those you defend? >   You replied: > I don’t have to hunt. You are either part of the solution, or part of the > problem. There is no middle ground, unless you just don’t know anything > about > the subject… >      Nice backpedaling and ducking the point, Jerry.

I don’t duck anything. Let’s stay on topic? > You called me an > abusive asshole. I’d like to know exactly WHAT you are basing this statement > on.

The fact that you are arguing with me, instead of arguing with the people that enjoy twisting ears, pushing thumb tacks into them, twisting toes, shocking, choking, jerking, shaking, and hanging dogs, to name JUST a few of the commonly accepted abuses here… You defend that? > If you can’t find anything to prop up this statement, I want an APOLOGY.

I think I just propped up enough. Want more? I don’t think so… > I’m sick and tired of seeing you accuse ANYONE who disagrees with you in ANY > way of abusing dogs.

Only people that give crummy advice and defend abusive assholes get criticism from me. What is your objection? You don’t like the abuse I give people that are intentionally cruel to dogs? Complain to them, and then you won’t have to be disturbed by me. > Please either prove your claim, or apologise for > slandering me.

You mean slandering you for defending those abuses? Not a chance. > Enjoy the event, and good luck. I don’t mean you any ill will. >   Oh really? Well, I’m sorry, but calling someone a "pig" and an "abusive > asshole" displays an extraordinary amount of ill will.

Only towards people that are more interested in protecting their little playmates, instead of getting honest and putting an end to that crap. You are part of the problem, or part of the solution. All you’ve shown here, is that you would rather defend these punks. That leads me to have no choice but to disrespect you in the same manner. Sorry, but it’s your choice. They can only continue to operate like that with your approval. If you want to give good, decent, humane dog training advice, I’m not going to criticize you, because there won’t be anything to criticize, huh?. But if you think that your little group of pigs in this filthy freaking pig sty are going to deter me from making the facts known, and prevent me from changing the facts as you have known them to be here, then you got another think coming… > Especially since I > was merely pointing out to a busybody newbie that it’s a not a good idea to > try to regulate things in here.

If you are talking about Simone, I think he’s proven to himself through his problem dog, that I’ve given only competent information here. Information that was contrary to all the "good" advice he got from your pals. Seems I’ve had several interesting conversations with him about training. I did not see the original post, as it did not show up on my newsreader… Perhaps you would be more effective speaking up when people approve of choking and hanging dogs? Maybe you just don’t want to get involved. But you don’t hesitate to criticize me. That’s weird, coming from such a competent, concerned, individual as yourself. Isn’t it? > I only mean to  stop abuse and ignorance here. >    Oh really? Then why do you ignorantly abuse people you know NOTHING > about?

What is your complaint? There is no logic to your arguments. You are not being truthful with yourself. > You don’t know me, have never met me, have never seen my dogs, and > have apparently never read any of my posts, but you were all too ready to > call me names ("pig", remember?)  and accuse me of being abusive- and NOT > for the first time!- merely because I stated that you are known for > insulting people. That’s a fact. You DO insult people, and claim that they > abuse dogs, on a daily basis.

That’s true. And you defend them. Seems to me, that you are condoning that kind of behavior. Either shit or get off the pot. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >  Don’t forget, Jerry, that agility competition requires controlling > one’s > > dog WITHOUT LEASH OR COLLAR,  at a high rate of speed, by voice and hand > > signals only. Consequently, it also requires an extremely high degree of > > trust and communication in the dog/human partnership…. >   To which you responded, in a non-sequiter fashion: > Good luck. If you are interested in improving your performance, I suggest > you > read and practice the exercises in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method > manual > available for free at  http://www.doggdoright.com >    Jerry, you missed the point. The point is- if I’m such an "pig" and > "abusive asshole", how, pray tell, do you suppose I manage to sucessfully do > agility? Once again, either support your accusation of abuse, or apologise > and retract it.

Howe do you sleep at night knowing that you are defending the abuses of your chump chums here? >   As to your manual: I read it a LONG time ago- a couple of years ago, when > you first showed up on this newsgroup- and I’m sorry, but I’m not impressed.

It’s only been ten months. But it should feel like several years, huh? I guess I’ve hurt some feelings? You probably didn’t read it thoroughly. Most of your pals here only looked for mistakes that they could criticize. All they got was a couple of typos and a lot of mistaken ideas because they didn’t read the content. > Nothing new in there, and a technique (using the shaker can) that *would* be > abusive if used with one of my dogs.

No it wouldn’t. Not if you knew what you are doing.  You say that because you don’t understand enough about how to properly use sound. Or, you are just lying. Why don’t you speak up when your pals here say that there are no competitors that do not use force? That argument has been thrown around by everyone, Fred, Ludwig, Lynn, Dogman, and you sit there saying nothing, because you don’t want to… TAKE SIDES? What does taking sides have to do with common sense and human decency, and knowing Right from Wrong? I think you’ve got some major problems beyond what’s obvious here. > Not to mention the related page which > wants to sell an electronic device, "made by elves", which allegedly solves > all dog-related problems merely by turning it on in the dog’s vicinity…

That it does, and is 100% satisfaction, money back, guaranteed, forever. And, it has a two year repair/replace guarantee. And, it has a 25% discount for shelters and rescue people, regardless of their tax exempt status. It’s hilarious how all you nice guys don’t care about something that helps dogs. It’s remarkable that people that cannot find fault with my training advice, like to criticize my Doggy Do Right device… > sorry, but that kind of tends to make anyone with common sense disregard > *any* information related to it.

Well, it would be extremely well accepted here, if it HURT dogs to accomplish those things. Wouldn’t it? Just like my training advice. Because I don’t HURT dogs, you people won’t believe that my advice TRAINS dogs. >    Besides, I get all the help I need for improving my performance in > agility from my coach, Debi Hutchinson. If you want a reference for *her*- > try Karen Pryor’s web site. You DO know who Karen is, don’t you?

Yes, Karen is a clicker trainer. Her training goals and methods are not at issue here. She ain’t all that hot, and she can’t deal efficiently with problem behavior… >  Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) > Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From > Hell) > Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament > Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) > we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B9

I’m not playing games here, dogs lives depend on the INFORMATION that is coming from you shitbirds, and if you can’t provide decent information, then go someplace where that kind of crap is appreciated, because it is not appropriate here. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training … read more »

Response:

> You don’t consider such handling and training "methods" as pinching ears, > pushing thumb tacks into them, twisting toes, choking, jerking, scruff shaking, > shocking, and hanging dogs as abusive?

   Jerry, that is NOT the point. The point is that you accuse *anyone* who disagrees with you in *any* way of these practices. I stated- truthfully- that you insult people, and that you make unfounded accusations of abuse. You responded by calling me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole", and implying that *I* use these methods. I am asking you to either *support* your claims that I abuse dogs, or retract them.    And yes, I would consider *some* of those methods abusive, and others- depending on context and manner in which they are used- tools for occasional use in the correct hands. > I didn’t make that up

   No, but *do* you exaggerate, take things out of context, and make unfounded accusations of abuse- including calling *me* abusive when you have *no* real life knowlege whatsoever of myself, my dogs, or my methods of training. > Now, since you’ve accused me of being an "abusive asshole", > howsabout finding a post of mine > to prove your claim? Happy Hunting!

   And you replied: > I don’t have to hunt for your old posts.

   Yes, you do, if you want to claim that I’m a "pig" and an "abusive asshole". You need to back up that claim with *facts*. I then invited you to attend a NADAC trial at which I will be competing with my older dog.  You responded: > No thanks. I wasn’t born yesterday. I’d rather be observing you train a green > dog when you don’t think anyone is watching….

   Well, unless your "black box" also has a spy module of some sort, that’s not very realistic, now is it?  OTOH, if you want to watch me working with a "green" dog, I’ve only had my younger dog for four months. (I adopted her from the SPCA after her first family got rid of her for allegedly attacking children.) She started agility training about a month ago- classes are at 4:30 every Thursday night at Kinderpup in Pasadena, Maryland. Visitors are always welcome- anyone interested can e-mail me for directions. >That would be far more telling > than watching a trained dog do something he’s been doing month, after

month.    Heh. You *really* don’t know much about agility, do you? It’s not possible to watch a dog doing something he’s been doing "month after month"- EVERY agility course in EVERY trial is different, and the dog has never seen it before the team walks onto the course. The handlers get 5-10 minutes to learn the course immediately before running it- there’s nothing rote about it, unlike obedience. That’s the beauty of agility, and why it requires such a high level of communication and trust between dog and human. Again, remember that the dog is OFF LEAD, UNCOLLARED, and moving at a high rate of speed. My dogs LOVE doing agility- Brenin literally drags me towards the ring when it’s time for his turn, and sits in the car and howls with jealousy when I do it with Morag.   >You’ve accused me of disinformation.    Yes, I have- in a very specific context: when you posted slanderous information about a specific individual, which I KNEW to be false. I’m not going to rehash the whole thing- I will merely reiterate that I live in the same city as the person in question (whereas you live hundreds of miles away), know a number of her students, adopted my companions-in-fur from the shelter where she volunteers,  and have mutual aquaintences who have seen her in action (she does flyball, I do agility, and some of our friends do both). I will ALWAYS speak up when I see claims that I KNOW to be false, whether or not I like or know the person accused. It’s a matter of personal morality, a la Martin Neimoller. (If you don’t know who Martin Neimoller was, shame on you.)  >  I suggest that you and your > pals are interested in disinformation to avoid SCRUTINY.

    Jerry, what ARE you smoking? And how come you’re not sharing it? <G> I’ve given you specific invitations to come and watch me compete, and now I’ve given you specifics as to where I train, and invited you to come and watch. How, pray tell, is that "avoiding scrutiny"? And who do you mean by "my pals"? The people I do agility with? They don’t even know you exist.   Besides which, that’s pretty funny coming from someone who won’t even tell anyone the names of his dogs, and has declined numerous requests to allow others to see even a picture of any of his dogs- let alone watch him working with dogs, or see any of the dogs he’s trained. >We’re talking about  ETHICS.

  Yes, we are. *I* am talking about the ethics of someone calling me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole", and refusing to show any facts that back up these claims. > If you are not part of the problem, than you shouldn’t have any gripe with me. > If you are part of the problem, then that would explain why you are throwing a > red herring around. > You’ve been defending your chump chums here, and saying that you don’t do those > things that I point out about them. If you do not practice those behaviors, then > perhaps you’d do well to address your pals here, instead of attacking me, trying > to defend them.

  Jerry, m’dear, I did NOT attack you. I wasn’t even *talking* to you originally  - I was merely discouraging a newbie from trying to be a "hall monitor". The poster was "correcting" Lois for insulting you… if it had been the other way around (ie the poster correcting you for insulting Lois) I still would have posted in response. You and Lois can insult each other all you like- I find both sets of posts pretty funny, to tell you the truth- I merely pointed out to the newbie that you’re not exactly innocent when it comes to the matter of posting insulting things.   > > Since you do not condemn them, but do condemn me, that only can lead to one > conclusion.

   Sigh. Jerry, I repeat- I did not "condemn" you. You’re projecting. I stated- truthfully, and there’s plenty of evidence to support the statement- that you are well known for insulting people. I also stated that you have been known to make unsupported accusations of abuse. You have made them about me, and you have made them about someone else whom I KNOW is not abusive. I have ONLY responded to claims that I KNOW to be untrue- I’m pretty sure you’re wrong about some other people in here, but I don’t have REAL LIFE evidence in those cases.  > > You say you are a competitor that doesn’t use fear and force to train? Why don’t > you speak up, when your pals here say that there are no competitors getting > titles that do not use force in training?

   Jerry, don’t be silly. You know perfectly well that those statements are in regards to training retrievers for field trials by using "force fetch" methods, NOT to training for agility, and that you’re comparing apples and oranges.  I don’t usually comment on those threads, because I know very little about training field-trial retrievers. > I smell a stinking rat, if you want to know the truth…

  Bwahahahaha!!!! What on *earth* is THAT supposed to mean? That there’s some sort of conspiracy, because I don’t comment on matters I have no experience of? > I wouldn’t know anything about sports. My protection dogs have to work under > real life situations, where points don’t count, and they play for keeps, winner > takes all, loser none.

  Sigh. Jerry, once again- until you can give SOME kind of verification of these claims, I don’t accept this as truth. I’m not saying it’s false, mind you- just that you keep saying stuff like this and refusing to give *anything* to allow people to believe you. Almost *everyone* in this group is more than willing to display pictures of themselves and their dogs, and/or has been verifed in one way or another.  Ie by other group members, by unrelated web sites, by book dedications, etc.   As to using dogs for protection- I, personally, would be ASHAMED to expect my dogs to fight human beings. >No one I’ve ever heard of has ever had a weave pole pull > a gun on them, or try to kidnap their kids.

  Snort. Um, Jerry- the dogs don’t FIGHT with the weave poles, y’know. Do you actually know what they DO do with weave poles? And again- I’d be ASHAMED to expect my dogs to go up against a human with a gun. Then again, maybe I have a different perspective due to fourteen years of martial arts training…. > I wouldn’t know about that. My criteria for trust and communication are a lot > more stringent.

  More stringent than WHAT?

Response:

<> > > But you did say: > Wait. You condone the abuses talked about here.

 Oh, bullhockey. >You condemn me.

  See my other post for my response to this… What makes you > think that you are any better than those you defend?

     Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. I’m not "defending" anyone. As I have said in two other places, I merely pointed out to a wannabe "hall monitor" that people are allowed to insult each other in here, and that you insult people just as much as Lois was insulting you.  Again, see my other post for a more complete response to this. >      Nice backpedaling and ducking the point, Jerry. > I don’t duck anything. Let’s stay on topic?

     Snort. Snicker. Can you say, the pot is calling the kettle black? I was discussing ONE topic- the fact that you called me names without anything to back your claim up. YOU went off on a rant about other people in the NG. > You called me an > abusive asshole. I’d like to know exactly WHAT you are basing this statement > on. > The fact that you are arguing with me,

   No, Jerry, I *wasn’t* arguing with you at the point when you called me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole". I wasn’t even TALKING to you. I was (repeating for the umpteenth time, who knows? maybe it will sink in this time!) pointing out to a newbie that we don’t need "hall monitors" in here. The newbie happened to "correct" Lois for insulting you. I would have responded in much the same way if the person in question had "corrected" you for insulting Lois. > instead of arguing with the people that > enjoy twisting ears, pushing thumb tacks into them, twisting toes, shocking, > choking, jerking, shaking, and hanging dogs, to name JUST a few of the commonly > accepted abuses here… You defend that?

   Jerry, m’dear, you see this stuff where nobody else does. Kinda like the person who sees a parent give a kid one mild pop on the rear, and screams "ABUSE!!" Is it the best method of dealing with a child? Probably not. Is it abusive? No, it’s not. There’s a major difference between a swat on the rear, and abusively beating a child. The same applies to methods of dealing with dogs…   In any case, ABUSING in return (whether verbally as in here, or physically in real life) does not solve the problem or change the behaviour. EDUCATING people, persuasive argument, demonstrating by example, and so forth, are effective methods. Ranting, raving, accusing, and insulting people is counterproductive. If you really do want to change people, you’re shooting yourself in the foot with your methods. > If you can’t find anything to prop up this statement, I want an APOLOGY. > I think I just propped up enough. Want more? I don’t think so..

HUH? No, I don’t think you supported it at all. Talk about red herrings!  Once again, if you can’t find anything *I* have said that supports your accusation that I abuse my dogs, I suggest that you retract it. I actually could not care less- anybody who counts knows I’m not abusive- but you’re damaging *yourself* by making unfounded accusations. > You mean slandering you for defending those abuses? Not a chance.

    La la la… let me repeat AGAIN: Please show evidence that I have "defended abuses". > . All you’ve shown here, is that you  would rather defend these punks.

    Whee! I think we’re up to the sixth repetition here!! Please show where and how, in pointing out to someone that we don’t need "hall monitors", I was "defending punks".  For that matter, please find evidence that I’ve "defended punks" anywhere on this NG. >But if you  think that your little group of pigs in this filthy freaking pig sty are going > to deter me from making the facts known, and prevent me from changing the facts > as you have known them to be here, then you got another think coming…

  Er, well, I have yet to see much in the way of verifiable *facts* from you. Sorry, Jerry, but I haven’t. OTOH, I have indeed noticed your talent for "changing facts" – such as transmogrifying my dislike of "hall monitors" into "condemning you", "defending punks", and "supporting dog abusers". > Perhaps you would be more effective speaking up when people approve of choking > and hanging dogs? Maybe you just don’t want to get involved.

  Jerry, I have NOT seen people "approving" of this in here. I have only seen people describe using it in very rare instances to prevent injury to themselves. As far as "getting involved"- I do that in REAL LIFE, not on USENET. >But you don’t  hesitate to criticize me.

   Nor do I hesitate to criticise anyone else, up to and including Dogman- why should you be exempt? BUT- (slap, bang, here we go again, all on a Monday evening), this whole thing started because YOU decided to call me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole" because I stated, quite truthfully,  that you’re well known for posting insults. C’mon, Jerry- you REVEL in insulting people! And you instantly proved my point by insulting me. <G> > That’s weird, coming from such a competent, concerned, > individual as yourself. Isn’t it?

  Well, gee, Jerry, thanks for the compliments! And no, it’s not weird for me to criticise anyone. OTOH…..drumroll here, I’m about to repeat myself again; has it sunk in yet, Jerry? I did NOT "criticise" you. I criticised someone else for being a "hall monitor’. This person happened to "correct" Lois for insulting you. I would have responded in similar fashion if Simone had "corrected" you for insulting Lois.  You responded by calling me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole". I took exception to this and asked you to support your claim that I’m abusive. > What is your complaint? There is no logic to your arguments. You are not being > truthful with yourself.

  Um, Jerry, I think you stole one of *my* lines…. > You don’t know me, have never met me, have never seen my dogs, and > have apparently never read any of my posts, but you were all too ready to > call me names ("pig", remember?)  and accuse me of being abusive- and NOT > for the first time!- merely because I stated that you are known for > insulting people. That’s a fact. You DO insult people, and claim that they > abuse dogs, on a daily basis.

    And you responded: > That’s true. And you defend them.

  Dum dum dum dum de dum dum de dum… Once again: Please show evidence that I "defend" people who abuse dogs. While you’re at it, find that evidence that *I* abuse dogs. And once again- I’ve repeatedly invited you to attend either an agility trial in which I am competing, and/or to observe training classes that I attend, for evidence to back up your claims in regards to myself. >   As to your manual: I read it a LONG time ago- a couple of years ago, when > you first showed up on this newsgroup- and I’m sorry, but I’m not

impressed.   To which you responded: > It’s only been ten months. But it should feel like several years, huh? I guess > I’ve hurt some feelings?

   Not mine, dearie- it’s rare for people to hurt my feelings even in REAL LIFE, let alone in here. As to the time frame- I have better things to do with my time than go search Deja News just to check this, but I’m reasonably sure it’s been longer than that. Not that it really matters- point is that I’m familiar with the content of your posts from the very beginning, since I’ve been participating in the NG for several years. > Nothing new in there, and a technique (using the shaker can) that *would* be > abusive if used with one of my dogs. > No it wouldn’t.

    Yes, it would. You don’t know my dog, so you can’t say this.  >Not if you knew what you are doing.  You say that because you > don’t understand enough about how to properly use sound.

   Snort. Actually, it’s my primary method of communicating with my dogs- that, and body language. I don’t need an artificial aid such as a shake can.   And, since you’ve never met me, never seen me working with my dogs, nor ever talked to anyone who has ever done so, you’re not qualified to make a statement like that. Again, please see my other posts for times and directions if you’d like to actually meet me and my dogs in REAL LIFE, and make a REAL judgement of my ability to deal with them. >Or, you are just lying.

  Nope. Got better things to do with my time than make things up… and I read very well at a high rate of speed (I read at least three books a week, sometimes as many as eight) so yes, I did read the whole thing. > Why don’t you speak up when your pals here say that there are no competitors > that do not use force? That argument has been thrown around by everyone, Fred, > Ludwig, Lynn, Dogman, and you sit there saying nothing, because you don’t want > to… TAKE SIDES?

    Come off it, Jerry.  You know as well as I do that they are VERY SPECIFICALLY talking about using "force fetching" to train for retriever field trials. They are *not* talking about agility competition. And I HAVE spoken up, when the discussions have gotten general enough for me to feel qualifed to comment. And you also know darn well that "force" does not necessarily equal "abuse", and that I have stated before that you seem to define the term differently from others in the discussion. > What does taking sides have to do with common sense and human > decency, and knowing Right from Wrong?

    I dunno, Jerry… all I know is that I strive to use common sense and human decency in dealing with both dogs and humans. And your common sense ought to tell you that attacking people the way you do is counterproductive, and undermines you when you try to argue "human decency". And yeah, I’m QUITE qualified to comment on that- I make my LIVING resolving problems for people who are upset, angry, and combative, and have done martial arts for nearly 15 years. Meeting force with force is not effective… redirecting force is.  That goes for others in here too, y’know…  I understand why people get ticked off and start insulting each … read more »

Response:

>  Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) >  Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From >  Hell) >  Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament >  Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) >  we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B9

  Whoops, typo there: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92

Response:

Hello sionnach, > <> > > > But you did say: > Wait. You condone the abuses talked about here. >  Oh, bullhockey.

Sure you are, or you wouldn’t be arguing with me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You condemn me. >   See my other post for my response to this… > What makes you > think that you are any better than those you defend? >      Jerry, Jerry, Jerry. I’m not "defending" anyone. As I have said in two > other places, I merely pointed out to a wannabe "hall monitor" that people > are allowed to insult each other in here, and that you insult people just as > much as Lois was insulting you. >  Again, see my other post for a more complete response to this.

This is rpdb, not insult school. Lois is a liar. She contributes little here, except animosity. You are not defending some "hall monitor," you were criticizing a knowledgeable poster stating factual comments to Lois about the INFORMATION I post here. > >      Nice backpedaling and ducking the point, Jerry. > I don’t duck anything. Let’s stay on topic? >      Snort. Snicker. Can you say, the pot is calling the kettle black? I was > discussing ONE topic- the fact that you called me names without anything to > back your claim up. YOU went off on a rant about other people in the NG.

So you think that people that defend brutalizing dogs should be treated respectfully? > > You called me an > > abusive asshole. I’d like to know exactly WHAT you are basing this > statement > > on. > The fact that you are arguing with me, >    No, Jerry, I *wasn’t* arguing with you at the point when you called me a > "pig" and an "abusive asshole".

This goes back six months, where you were trying to tell Crim that he should ignore me because I was rude to some people that are rude to dogs. I think your value judgments are a bit confused. > I wasn’t even TALKING to you. I was > (repeating for the umpteenth time, who knows? maybe it will sink in this > time!) pointing out to a newbie that we don’t need "hall monitors" in here.

No, you are stomping on people that are interested in good information, not playing circle jerk. > The newbie happened to "correct" Lois for insulting you.

With good reason. He found the INFORMATION I gave him about his problem dog to be accurate, effective, and gentle. Lois was trying to diminish my effectiveness. And you are trying to do the same. > I would have > responded in much the same way if the person in question had "corrected" you > for insulting Lois.

Where you been all my life? I need help like that. Who’s being a hall monitor? > instead of arguing with the people that > enjoy twisting ears, pushing thumb tacks into them, twisting toes, > shocking, > choking, jerking, shaking, and hanging dogs, to name JUST a few of the > commonly > accepted abuses here… You defend that? >    Jerry, m’dear, you see this stuff where nobody else does.

Well, read the posts. I’m not making things up. It’s all here in black and white. And all you do is bitch at me because I’m not willing to let people get away with recommending these things to people that come here for help, and get told howe to hang and choke their dogs. > Kinda like the > person who sees a parent give a kid one mild pop on the rear, and screams > "ABUSE!!" Is it the best method of dealing with a child? Probably not. Is it > abusive? No, it’s not. There’s a major difference between a swat on the > rear, and abusively beating a child. The same applies to methods of dealing > with dogs…

We’re talking dogs here. I know dogs, that’s my profession, and there is no occasion that I have used any such sort of behavior for training dogs. Most people encounter dog behavior problems from trying to raise dogs like children, giving them "swats" on the ass. You got fifteen years of swatting your kids in the ass, before they’re big enough to knock you out. You got four months with a puppy. And, when the pup turns on you because of your inappropriate human parenting skills backfire, the pup DIES. >   In any case, ABUSING in return (whether verbally as in here, or physically > in real life) does not solve the problem or change the behaviour. EDUCATING > people, persuasive argument, demonstrating by example, and so forth, are > effective methods.

It hasn’t worked here for others competent trainers, because the chumps that you are defending chase them away. Things change. Get used to it. People that give crummy information here are going to be embarrassed and humiliated till it stops. > Ranting, raving, accusing, and insulting people is > counterproductive. If you really do want to change people, you’re shooting > yourself in the foot with your methods.

Nice guys finish last. I came in here to kill or cure. > > If you can’t find anything to prop up this statement, I want an APOLOGY. > I think I just propped up enough. Want more? I don’t think so.. > HUH? No, I don’t think you supported it at all. Talk about red herrings! >  Once again, if you can’t find anything *I* have said that supports your > accusation that I abuse my dogs, I suggest that you retract it. I actually > could not care less- > anybody who counts knows I’m not abusive- but you’re damaging *yourself* by > making > unfounded accusations.

Figure it out. I’m not interested in condemning you for your behavior with your dog. You come into the category of people that allow these things to continue. Therefore, you are as guilty as them. It’s a tough break for you, but you are either part of the problem, or part of the solution. The situation can only continue with your silence and approval. > You mean slandering you for defending those abuses? Not a chance. >     La la la… let me repeat AGAIN: Please show evidence that I have > "defended abuses".

Don’t la la la me while people are kneeing, and choking, and hanging dogs. > . All you’ve shown here, is that you  would rather defend these punks. >     Whee! I think we’re up to the sixth repetition here!! Please show where > and how, in pointing out to someone that we don’t need "hall monitors", I > was "defending punks".

You say nothing when people recommend abominable practices for dog behavior. >  For that matter, please find evidence that I’ve "defended punks" anywhere > on this NG.

Every silence is a statement. >But if you  think that your little group of pigs in this filthy freaking > pig sty are going > to deter me from making the facts known, and prevent me from changing the > facts > as you have known them to be here, then you got another think coming… >   Er, well, I have yet to see much in the way of verifiable *facts* from > you. Sorry, Jerry, but I haven’t. OTOH, I have indeed noticed your talent > for "changing facts" – such as transmogrifying my dislike of "hall monitors" > into "condemning you", "defending punks", and "supporting dog abusers".

Sometimes we just need to think a little deeper. Start now… > Perhaps you would be more effective speaking up when people approve of > choking > and hanging dogs? Maybe you just don’t want to get involved. >   Jerry, I have NOT seen people "approving" of this in here. I have only > seen people describe using it in very rare instances to prevent injury to > themselves. As far as "getting involved"- I do that in REAL LIFE, not on > USENET.

You got some problems with honesty? >But you don’t  hesitate to criticize me. >    Nor do I hesitate to criticise anyone else, up to and including Dogman- > why should you be exempt? BUT- (slap, bang, here we go again, all on a > Monday evening), this whole thing started because YOU decided to call me a > "pig" and an "abusive asshole" because I stated, quite truthfully,  that > you’re well known for posting insults. C’mon, Jerry- you REVEL in insulting > people! And you instantly proved my point by insulting me. <G>

Then I’m sorry you are so sensitive. If you had been sensitive enough to recognize abusive advice given here and spoke up about it, I may never have needed to come in here and straighten these bums out. > That’s weird, coming from such a competent, concerned, > individual as yourself. Isn’t it? >   Well, gee, Jerry, thanks for the compliments! And no, it’s not weird for > me to criticise anyone. OTOH…..drumroll here, I’m about to repeat myself > again; has it sunk in yet, Jerry? I did NOT "criticise" you. I criticised > someone else for being a "hall monitor’.

They were talking about INFORMATION, not criticism. > This person happened to "correct" > Lois for insulting you.

No, he corrected her for criticizing my competent information and advice. > I would have responded in similar fashion if Simone > had "corrected" you for insulting Lois.

Thanks. Who’s the hall monitor? Why don’t you put your efforts to good use, and speak up when dogman tells people to hang dogs, or when cindy tells people that twisting toes and pinching ears is appropriate for "enhancing the bond between handler and dog?" >  You responded by calling me a "pig" and an "abusive asshole". I took > exception to this and asked you to support your claim that I’m abusive.

I think I’ll take the opportunity to reiterate that statement. Done. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What is your complaint? There is no logic to your arguments. You are not > being > truthful with yourself. >   Um, Jerry, I think you stole one of *my* lines…. > > You don’t know me, have never met me, have never seen my dogs, and > > have apparently never read any of my posts, but you were all too ready > to > > call me names ("pig", remember?)  and accuse me of being abusive- and > NOT > > for the first time!- merely because I stated that you are known for > > insulting people. That’s a fact. You DO insult people, and claim that > they > > abuse dogs, on a daily basis. >     And you responded: > That’s true. And you

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Response:

> >    No, Jerry, I *wasn’t* arguing with you at the point when you called me a > "pig" and an "abusive asshole". > This goes back six months, where you were trying to tell Crim that he should > ignore me because I was rude to some people that are rude to dogs. I think your > value judgments are a bit confused.

Jerry, I repeat: WHAT are you smoking, and why aren’t you sharing it? You called me those names TWO days ago, not six months ago. I also repeat: Until you accept my repeated invitations, and actually SEE me dealing with my dogs in real life, you are simply blowing smoke- and undermining your "arguments" and your credibility- by calling me abusive. FYI- I don’t care at all what you think of me. My only motive in responding to your last two posts was to give you room to demonstrate to others (i.e. newbies who are unfamiliar with you) how far you will go in trying to twist facts, and to have fun watching you rant, rave, be rude, and call names in response to CIVIL intellectual arguement. Thanks for playing! You did a good job of revealing your true colors.

Response:

> > >    No, Jerry, I *wasn’t* arguing with you at the point when you called > me a > > "pig" and an "abusive asshole". > This goes back six months, where you were trying to tell Crim that he > should > ignore me because I was rude to some people that are rude to dogs. I think > your > value judgments are a bit confused. > Jerry, I repeat: WHAT are you smoking, and why aren’t you sharing it? You > called me those names TWO days ago, not six months ago.

Pay attention to the date on the following. Read the text too, maybe refresh your memory a bit…. I wouldn’t have had occasion to call you any names, had you not chosen to  defend a proven liar and her ridiculous accusations against me. You got your priorities all F’d up, don’t you? X-Mozilla-Status:                        0001          X-Mozilla-Status2:                        00000000                Reply-To:             Organization:                        BIOSOUND Scientific                 X-Mailer:                        Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win98; U)        X-Accept-Language:                        en            MIME-Version:                        1.0             Newsgroups:                        rec.pets.dogs.behavior                        Re: To Robert Crim              References:            Content-Type:                        text/plain; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding:                        7bit

Hello, sionnach, Listen up a moment. You’ve got all kinds of wild accusations here that I won’t waste much time on, but I’ll get to a couple of points. >    For an example of this, please take a look at some of his recent posts to > Janet Boss- sure, she’s been a bit testy with him recently (frankly, in > light of the way he’s been insulting her, she’s been admirably restrained), > but NOTHING she has ever said to him has deserved the kind of personal > slander he’s been posting.

Janet is a rank amateur, giving ridiculous advice. She is not asking questions in the interest of obtaining information, only to contradict. She’s a risk, as a trainer. >     Furthermore, when I posted some verifiable *facts* about her, in counter > to his fabrications (not that she needs my help, but out of an intrinsic > love for justice and fair play), Jerry immediately found a post of mine in > an unrelated thread, and posted a response designed to make those who don’t > know me think that I’m abusive towards my dogs and train using "sharp > corrections". As he had always ignored my posts before, I could only > conclude that he was retaliating against me.

Might have been the luck of the draw, maybe it was your turn. I don’t ordinarily follow posters around, except for a couple of big shots that take their respective turns being discredited by me. You know if you are one of them. You aren’t. That’s why I haven’t dogged you. Yet. >   He also repeatedly "changes his story", which makes even the most > charitable observer loath to believe *anything* that he says.

I don’t have stories that are subject to change. I’ve got lots of different experiences, I’ve done lots of unusual things. > For a concrete > example: several months ago (I believe this was right before you acquired > Rollei and came back to the NG, and BEFORE he started giving actual advice) > he claimed not only that he did not own any dogs, but that he did not LIKE > dogs.

That was a sarcastic remark made to Dogman or some equally ignorant dirt bag. > About six weeks ago, he claimed that he works with Great Danes.

Grew up in a huge Great Dane facility. A professional breeding, boarding, grooming and training establishment. > This > week, he claimed to own/have owned a Doberman.

Have three, had fifteen a couple years back, and four Eng. Mastiffs. And I’ve got some other dogs underfoot, a G.S.D. included. I often own and keep as many as five to fifteen dogs at home. And then have to go out to work to find more to train. > If you watch carefully over a > period of time, you will find a disturbing number of things like this in his > posts; he changes what he says according to the reaction he’s trying to get, > and often in direct contradiction to what he’s said elsewhere and at other > times. (These inconsistencies INCLUDE the training advice he gives, BTW.)

If you find contradictions that are not obvious typos or jokes, choke me with them. I dare you. You won’t because when we’re talking training information, the method is my guide, and I don’t have lots of leeway, except to use it creatively. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    I have not cared for the tone of many posts in here, by several longtime > regulars, but have still had respect for their obvious love of dogs and > their knowledge and experience in dealing with them.  I have also been able > to tell that they are *real* people, whose posts over a period of time have > had coherency with each other; for example, no matter how much I have > disliked the tone and language of some of Dogman’s posts, I have never > doubted that he did have long-time experience in training retrievers. To > continue using Dogman as an example, his identity and experience were also > verifiable through other sources. The same holds true for the rest of the > "regulars", including yourself- over a period of time, one gets to "know" > the person; I CANNOT say this for Jerry, no matter how hard I try to be > Devil’s Advocate.

Verify this… But that’s not the issue. Let’s use the information to verify my credibility. You won’t find any inconsistencies that are not obvious typos. You and your dirt bag friends like to take everything I say, and try to turn it around to criticize me. That’s O.K., people are getting hip, and they are going to realize which is the dirty end of the stick. I’m a stickler for cleanliness, so take your shot. >   Please bear in mind that though you can find instances where I’ve engaged > in heated argument, you have *never* seen any post of mine flame or > personally insult anyone- I’m here to *discuss* dogs, and share my love of > them, not to fight.

I’m thrilled. There are some passionate issues we’re talking about here. Some of us have good motives. Some others are unknowledgeable, and pure as the driven snow. Others here have ulterior motives. Why are you here? >   The strongest language you will find in any post I’ve ever made was to > refer to Jerry as a "ninnyhammer" when informing him that contrary to his > assumptions, I do not give "sharp corrections" to my dogs, and that I train > using flat nylon martingale collars and verbal signals. (I do *agility*, for > crying out loud- the dogs don’t even WEAR collars, let alone leashes!) Oh, > and if you’re wondering why I never "spoke up" during any of the > mud-slinging matches between you and Dogman- I figured you were two grown > men and your personal disagreements were your own business.

Perhaps, as was the case with Ruth Hoffman, I’d painted you with the same broad brush as everyone else. She proved her competence and sincerity, although I don’t really believe she challenged my information just based on her own interest in benefiting from what I may have had to offer. I recognize that she was a superior, competent trainer, and apologized. She knows I’m on the level, as do many other posters here. It’s not a matter of buddies or friendships or what’s cool and what’s not so cool. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ETHICS. Got any? >   Robert, your posts about Rollei show that you are capable of excellent > writing and of logical thought, and that you genuinely care for and love > dogs; I would like to request that you use your ability for critical > thinking to *unemotionally* examine the pattern and content of Jerry’s > posts.  Please bear in mind that he spent *months* responding to every > newbie’s asking-for-help posts with canned advertisements for his "black > box’; it’s only in the last eight weeks or so that he started actually > giving advice.

That was because there was not enough common ground to discuss training about. The experts needed to be provoked into reading my manual to crucify me with it. They couldn’t. You can’t. And now, there is opportunity to turn this forum into something that will benefit dogs and their families. With out the constant corrections, and constant reinforcement, and the quick jerks, and the force and abuse that is abhorrent and rampant here. > It’s possible that you are unaware of this, since you were > away from the NG for quite awhile; however, for those of us who endured it > for all that time, it absolutely colors our perception of his posts. > Sincerely > Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) > Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, OAC, NGC, 2/3 AD (formerly the Puppy From Hell) > Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extraordinaire > Morag, the Lovely Leaping Lurcher Lass

If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, shock, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.

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Response:

 had > you not chosen to  defend a proven liar and her ridiculous accusations against > me. You got your priorities all F’d up, don’t you?

No you syphilitic, maggot riddled piece of fly shit…..the only person to whom you "proved" I was lying, was simply your own delusional  mind Keep poking at me and I’ll take it up a notch

Response:

. > > >    No, Jerry, I *wasn’t* arguing with you at the point when you called > me a > > > "pig" and an "abusive asshole". > > This goes back six months, where you were trying to tell Crim that he > should > > ignore me because I was rude to some people that are rude to dogs.

   No, I didn’t tell Robert to ignore you; I merely pointed out to him- as I did to the current poster- that it’s pretty silly to complain about someone insulting YOU, when you yourself go out of your way to insult people yourself. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and all that…. And I wasn’t arguing with *you* then, either- as in the current situation, I wasn’t even talking to you. About you, yes- to you, no.   Your record on the matter of insulting people stands for itself- all anyone has to do, as matter of fact, is read the posts you’ve made to me in the last two days! S’far as I can remember, the closest I’ve ever gotten to insulting you was to call you a "ninnyhammer"- in a joking fashion-  when you tried to imply that I give my dogs "sharp corrections".  It was contained in a sentence reminding you that I use flat nylon martingale collars, when I use collars at all.  In case you’re not familiar with the word, it’s on the order of "goofball"…. not in the same league as "abusive asshole" and "stinking pig". > I think your value judgments are a bit confused.

    From you, Jerry me luv, that’s a compliment. Sorry, but it is. <G> > Pay attention to the date on the following. Read the text too, maybe refresh > your memory a bit…. I wouldn’t have had occasion to call you any names, had > you not chosen to  defend a proven liar and her ridiculous accusations against > me. You got your priorities all F’d up, don’t you?

     Jerry, what on *earth* are you talking about? And precisely *who* is supposed to be the "proven liar"? Do you mean Lois? I’ve already explained, ad infinitum ad nausem, that I was neither defending Lois nor attacking you in the post you responded to- I was merely explaining the facts of USENET to a wannabe "hall monitor".  Whether or not I LIKE posts which insult people, the fact of the matter is that people are ALLOWED to do it. As I’ve already said at least six times, I would have responded in similar fashion if the shoe had been on the other foot, and the person had "corrected" YOU for posting insulting material.    I stated- truthfully- that you frequently insult people, and accuse them of abuse without any proof or evidence. You immediately proceeded to prove my statement true, by responding and calling me a "pig"- there’s the insult- and an "abusive asshole"- there’s the accusation of abuse. I then attempted to engage you in a dialog, asking you to support your claim that I abuse dogs, and trying to explain to you why I feel your methods are counterproductive to what you claim to be trying to accomplish.   In regards to your assertion that I deal with my dogs abusively,  I invited you- not for the first time- to come and watch me work with my dogs. You refuse- it seems that you’d RATHER make yourself appear foolish by attacking me without proof and calling me names in a grade-school manner. You also heaped more abuse and insults on my head, and along the way made the astonishing claim that an internationally known writer and teacher is "lousy", but refuse to give any reasons or arguments to support *that* position except that you say so.   You also make the ludicrous claim that YOU are better qualified than *I* am to know what will and will not work with MY OWN DOGS- the dogs that I live with and adore; the dogs that you have never seen and refuse to meet. Likewise, you appear to prefer to lose credibility by refusing to allow anyone to see so much as a photo on a website to show that you actually own and train dogs.   Jerry, you’re only hurting your own case by behaving this way… it astounds me that you can’t see this.    Or is it that you mean *Janet* is the "proven liar"? Jerry, the ONLY statements I’ve ever seen on this newsgroup that I KNOW to be false- aside from the lies you’ve posted about myself-  are some of the things you have said about Janet. I’ve seen plenty of other posts in here that I’ve *suspected* were false, and some that I’d be willing to bet large sums of money were false- but I don’t have REAL WORLD knowledge of the facts behind those statements.    In the case of Janet, you have no real world knowledge of her- you live in Florida, and we live in Maryland. I *do* have real world knowledge of her- as I said in my last post, I’ve met a lot of her students, adopted my dogs and cat from the shelter she volunteers at, and have mutual friends via agility and flyball. Therefore, I KNEW that what you said about her was false.   For the third or fourth time:  if I *KNOW* that accusations about someone else- anyone, Jerry, even you!- are false, my personal code of ethics *compels* me to speak out. (And you still haven’t answered the question of whether or not you know who Martin Neimoller was….) Let me break a little fact to you, Jerry- THIS AIN’T THE REAL WORLD. THIS IS CYBERSPACE. Just because you say something is so, doesn’t make it real… and if you REALLY want to change the way people deal with dogs, you’d get a lot more accomplished if you’d stop being nasty to people. Educating people works. Abusing people doesn’t. Too bad for you- and for the dogs and people you might be able to help- that you waste your time in here screaming at people in cyberspace.. your choice. As to me and my dogs? The people who count know the truth….. I’m only sorry for you that you don’t seem to experience the joy that the rest of us have in our dogs. Pity you won’t come see Brenin run this weekend- you’d see sheer beauty, exuberance, poetry in motion, and JOY….  and people, including myself, having FUN with their dogs, regardless of whether they earn any points or ribbons. Betcha you can’t name who I’m paraphrasing here, either….    Mr. Howe, our game is done, sir. Thank you for a lot of fun, sir! (Nowe is your tongue numb?) Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, O-NGC, OAC, OJC, AD (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass (ADIT- Agility Dog In Training) we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92

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You GO girlfriend !! <EG> MB

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>  had > you not chosen to  defend a proven liar and her ridiculous accusations > against > me. You got your priorities all F’d up, don’t you? > No you syphilitic, maggot riddled piece of fly shit…..the only person to > whom you "proved" I was lying, was simply your own delusional  mind > Keep poking at me and I’ll take it up a notch

ROTFL!!!! What? You forgot crapweasel and pig vomit?! BG! Terri

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Hello sionnach, > No, I didn’t tell Robert to ignore you; I merely pointed out to him- as I did > to the current poster- that it’s pretty silly to complain about someone > insulting YOU, when you yourself go out of your way to insult people > yourself.

Who do I insult? Ignorant people that take out their aggression on dogs, and call it training? Seems you are upset with me, for being rude to people who defend those callous morons? Take your lumps, sister. > What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and all > that…. And I wasn’t arguing with *you* then, either- as in the current > situation, I wasn’t even talking to you. About you, yes- to you, no.

You should be more interested in improving the state of the art of dog training, rather than trying to support the inappropriate methods and ideologies that are killing millions of dogs because of abuse disguised as training. >   Your record on the matter of insulting people stands for itself- all > anyone has to do, as matter of fact, is read the posts you’ve made to me in > the last two days!

Wonder why? > S’far as I can remember, the closest I’ve ever gotten to > insulting you was to call you a "ninnyhammer"- in a joking fashion-  when > you tried to imply that I give my dogs "sharp corrections".  It was > contained in a sentence reminding you that I use flat nylon martingale > collars, when I use collars at all.  In case you’re not familiar with the > word, it’s on the order of "goofball"…. not in the same league as "abusive > asshole" and "stinking pig".

That’s mild compared to what I really would like to say about people that jerk and choke dogs, and call it training… or those that defend them. Perhaps that’s what I find most objectionable about you? You got no complaints about mistreating dogs, you only complain about me pointing these things out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I think your value judgments are a bit confused. >     From you, Jerry me luv, that’s a compliment. Sorry, but it is. <G> > Pay attention to the date on the following. Read the text too, maybe > refresh > your memory a bit…. I wouldn’t have had occasion to call you any names, > had > you not chosen to  defend a proven liar and her ridiculous accusations > against > me. You got your priorities all F’d up, don’t you? >      Jerry, what on *earth* are you talking about? > And precisely *who* is supposed to be the "proven liar"? Do you mean Lois?

In this instance, yes. > I’ve already explained, ad infinitum ad nausem, that I was neither defending > Lois nor attacking you in the post you responded to- I was merely explaining > the facts of USENET to a wannabe "hall monitor".

You mean "hall monitor" being someone that benefited from my advice? Someone that was telling a lying psycho that her malicious postings are not helping people get the information they need? You are a curious one… > Whether or not I LIKE > posts which insult people, the fact of the matter is that people are ALLOWED > to do it.

Good. Lets try to stay on topic, and lets only insult people that abuse dogs. > As I’ve already said at least six times, I would have responded in > similar fashion if the shoe had been on the other foot, and the person had > "corrected" YOU for posting insulting material.

Lois is a psychotic liar. She’s posted no information, even in her criticism of me. Let the stupid bitch attack my training advice, if she’s got some gripe with me. But she’s just as useless as her pal BOBO. Give some information to kill me with, or shove off. >    I stated- truthfully- that you frequently insult people, and accuse them > of abuse without any proof or evidence.

Let’s not get into that, or I’ll have to start pulling up posts with information that will turn your stomach. > You immediately proceeded to prove > my statement true, by responding and calling me a "pig"- there’s the insult- > and an "abusive asshole"- there’s the accusation of abuse.

That’s a good place to start when people defend choking, hanging, and shocking dogs. Tell me howe you really feel about that? Tell me howe you make an effective correction? > I then attempted to engage you in a dialog, asking you to support your claim > that I abuse dogs, and trying to explain to you why I feel your methods are > counterproductive to what you claim to be trying to accomplish.

That’s another thread. >   In regards to your assertion that I deal with my dogs abusively,  I > invited you- not for the first time- to come and watch me work with my dogs. > You refuse- it seems that you’d RATHER make yourself appear foolish by > attacking me without proof and calling me names in a grade-school manner. > You also heaped more abuse and insults on my head, and along the way made > the astonishing claim that an internationally known writer and teacher is > "lousy", but refuse to give any reasons or arguments to support *that* > position except that you say so.

I probably insulted some "internationally know writer and teacher" based on their lack of competent information. That’s about the extent of my kind of criticism, it’s based on facts and information, and not personalities and alleged merit. >   You also make the ludicrous claim that YOU are better qualified than *I* > am to know what will and will not work with MY OWN DOGS- the dogs that I > live with and adore; the dogs that you have never seen and refuse to meet. > Likewise, you appear to prefer to lose credibility by refusing to allow > anyone to see so much as a photo on a website to show that you actually own > and train dogs.

That’s silly. I don’t look as pretty on camera as I am in cuddly real life. That is a stupid argument. And, improving the performance of dogs is something I’m pretty good at, it’s my job. >   Jerry, you’re only hurting your own case by behaving this way… it > astounds me that you can’t see this.

You win some, you lose some. I’m taking a calculated risk, that I’ll lose some good people along with running off a lot more crummy people, therefore, we all got to suffer till the quality of the posting here comes up to some level of decency. That’s my only concern. And, it isn’t going to happen as long as ignoramuses like you run off at the mouth criticizing me, instead of taking issue with the way dogs are handled and trained. Let’s try and get focused on the important issues about dog training, not whether Lois is having a tough time going through menopause. >    Or is it that you mean *Janet* is the "proven liar"?

I’ve never called Janet a liar. She is an incompetent trainer, but I haven’t found her to lie. On the other hand, I’ve got your punk pal lynn k. as a proven liar, and your punk pal dm as a proven liar. I only peg someone a liar, after they have been proven in writing, beyond a doubt, that they are lying. You don’t seem to have any problem with defending your pals here that are proven liars. You should keep better company. > Jerry, the ONLY > statements I’ve ever seen on this newsgroup that I KNOW to be false- aside > from the lies you’ve posted about myself-  are some of the things you have > said about Janet.

I haven’t said any untruths about Janet. She is an incompetent trainer, and should not be in a position of responsibility with dogs, because of her lack of knowledge. > I’ve seen plenty of other posts in here that I’ve > *suspected* were false, and some that I’d be willing to bet large sums of > money were false- but I don’t have REAL WORLD knowledge of the facts behind > those statements. >    In the case of Janet, you have no real world knowledge of her- you live > in Florida, and we live in Maryland.

It’s a small world. > I *do* have real world knowledge of > her- as I said in my last post, I’ve met a lot of her students, adopted my > dogs and cat from the shelter she volunteers at, and have mutual friends via > agility and flyball. Therefore, I KNEW that what you said about her was > false.

No, you know what you thought you know. I know what I do know, based on information  from Janet’s posts about dogs. She’s a crummy trainer. Pull up her old posts, and you’ll see. >   For the third or fourth time:  if I *KNOW* that accusations about someone > else- anyone, Jerry, even you!- are false, my personal code of ethics > *compels* me to speak out.

Howe do you feel about twisting toes and pinching ears to enhance the bond between handler and dog? Howe about jerking and choking dogs to rehabilitate them, and then when they’re pushed over the edge, hanging them for their own good? You seem to mistake what is important to address here, in favor of some petty gripe you have about me addressing people that see nothing wrong with the abuses committed against dogs by the "experts" here. Howe come you don’t speak up when fraud die was saying that nobody that trains using positive methods, never competes and wins? Perhaps you weren’t really sure that you have winning competition dogs? Perhaps you weren’t really sure that you train without force? Perhaps you’re just running a scam on me, like so many of your pals, when they claim that they aren’t doing rotten things to dogs? > (And you still haven’t answered the question of whether or not you know who > Martin Neimoller was….)

Doesn’t ring a bell. > Let me break a little fact to you, Jerry- THIS AIN’T THE REAL WORLD. THIS IS > CYBERSPACE.

I’m giving her all she’s got, Cap’tn… > Just because you say something is so, doesn’t make it real…

Damnit, I’m only a man, not a machine. But wrong about dog training? > and if you > REALLY want to change the way people deal with dogs, you’d get a lot more > accomplished if you’d stop being nasty to people.

You might be correct. But about being nasty, what’s unkind about pointing out mistaken and commonly used, cruel, ineffective, methods that cost dogs their lives, that are recommended here? If you had been doing that, I’d have never come along. I’m not here because I enjoy … read more »

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