Question:

Nancy: I find it curious that someone who claims to be so set against unkindness is as agressive as you are. You neither know what I have read nor with whom I have had conversation.  Furthermore you could not possibly know when I was in Cambridge NY unless you are psychic. And that is obviously not the case otherwise you would know that I believe animals are far more decent, fair and deserving of kindness than many ‘humans’ as your unkind post has so keenly illustrated. Your posts to me have not been informative but rather they have been attacking and rudely challenging in nature.  I do not enjoy arguing with someone I don’t even know neither do I find sport in defending my point of view to someone for whom I have no interest in knowing.  I do not find this entertaining.  I am sorry for you if you do.  In future will you be so kind as not to respond to any of my posts, particularly since they have been addresed specifically to someone other than yourself. I am thankful that we are all free to have our varying points of view and I shall not criticise you for having one which may differ from mine.  Neither shall I demand that you explain yourself nor the basis for the reasons that you opine as you do. You don’t know the least little bit about me; what I have done for so many stray animals; the time and money that I have given so generously to them.  You are not qualified to accuse me of either being deceitful or subscribing to ANY unkind treatment of ANY animal.  Please do not respond to any further posts of mine in yur rude, attacking manner.  I simply will neither read them nor respond to them. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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BY THE WAY NANCY:  If you had elected to show up at this ‘conversation’ without your armour perhaps you and I could have had some meaningful interaction.  Perhaps even; we could have enlightened eachother to some information not known by the other.  I believe and am very saddened that this is the basis for our inferiority to the beasts. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Ginger this  is usenet its not a ‘private conversation’  and  people have other opinions than yours – get used to it. The Monks books should IMO be *banned* from book shelves. In particular the one called How to be Your Dog’s Best Friend and also The Art of Raising a Puppy – which highlight how to dominate an animal into submission through various force methods. There are TONS of better trainers out there and better books not to mention video tapes that more thoroughly and kindly explain how to raise a puppy and train a dog to be a good companion without using any of the force techniques outlined in their books. Essentially the monks IMO mill dogs for sale to the credulous public and also abusively train people’s pets for them – not what I would call kind in any way shape or form. You are not the first person to post about visiting the monks on usenet – and few that have had any reaction to them similar to yours. You apparently subscribe to the mystique of the monk and not to the gentle methods of training dogs – fine its your opinion and you are welcome to it. I’d rather see Ian Dunbar, John Rogerson, Karen Pryor and *many* others being lauded instead as they IMO know how to motivate dogs and people and modify behaviors without needing the force techniques preferred by others. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> BY THE WAY NANCY:  If you had elected to show up at this ‘conversation’ > without your armour perhaps you and I could have had some meaningful > interaction.  Perhaps even; we could have enlightened eachother to some > information not known by the other.  I believe and am very saddened > that this is the basis for our inferiority to the beasts. > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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> Check out some of the Monk’s work yourself. Let me know what you think.

I have their "How to Be Your Dog’s Best Friend", and consider their recommended "physical discipline" to be _highly_ inappropriate. The book offers barbaric advice such as "How hard do you hit a dog? A good general rule is that if you did not get a response, a yelp or other sign, after the first hit, it was not hard enough." This 1978 book is a relic of the "bad old days", before the popularization of more humane, and more effective, training techniques.

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chris –if you want one of the best books out get the MERK  VETERINARY MANUAL.  it covers everything.

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 sorry chris that is MERCK VETERINARY MANUAL______NOT MERK —- SAW   IT AS I SENT IT  OUT!

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>chris –if you want one of the best books out get the MERK  VETERINARY >MANUAL.  it covers everything.

That’s Merck.  Not being critical, but it might make it easier for people to find it if it’s spelled correctly. Sally Hennessey

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Hello Chris: Yes there are beautiful hiking spots there.  I do not know to which ‘brutal’ techniques that person refers; I can only relay to you which I has been my own personal one to one interactions with numerous of the monks/authors during the many, MANY hours and days I spent with them. I not only spoke at length with them but had the great experience of watching MUCH of the training at various stages first hand.  The strongest feeling I had coming away from New Skete was one of kindness. I assure you I, a person who puts my dogs safety, health and happiness before that of my own (hey, I even keep the Mr. in the kennel, remember?) absolutely do not, WOULD NOT, WILL NOT stand by idly while witnessing ANY form of unkind treatment to dogs or any other creature. One thing one must watch out for though,Chris, while hiking in that area would be the deer tick and the dreaded Lyme disease.  Take that, too, from one who knows first hand.  Keep in touch, G * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Chris:  Just a P.S.: As always – neither my word nor another’s.  Check out some of the Monk’s work yourself. Let me know what you think. What kind of dog(s) have you, by the way?  Are you on the East Coast? G * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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>One thing one must watch out for > though,Chris, while hiking in that area > would be the deer tick and the dreaded > Lyme disease. Take that, too, from one > who knows first hand.

  I often feel guilty, Ginger, at not moving my dogs to a wilderness area; we live with our backs to the ocean in Southern California, with development encroaching all around us.   However, we have fleas but no ticks; rattlesnakes and coyotes are nearby, but none here, doesn’t get too hot or too cold. Maybe we’d better count our blessings.

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Chris: I, too have moved my dogs to Southern California.  I do sometimes feel guilty about having taken them from the country.  I myself miss it terribly at times.  I do my best to make up for it by giving them a lot of love and attention.  I am not at the ocean, we’re further inland (I work in Pasadena).  So as you can see the mister has been their little portable ocean breeze.  I did live in Marina Del Mar prior to moving back east.  I love the ocean.  I wish I could afford to live there again.  Lately I have been considering a ‘westward’ move. My best girlfriend lives on the west side and we have been thinking out loud about how nice it would be to live nearer oneanother.  She works in Beverly Hills and I’ve been thinking that would be a wise move finanically for me.  I’m a legal assistant at a law firm in Pasadena and I’m sure the money would be better in BH or surrounding.  What kind of dog(s) do you have?  I have two.  They are brothers.  They are from Pennsylvania (Amish dogs) their father a German terrier (huge) and the mother show in their lab build.  Their faces look like little foo-foo terriers, very deceiving. They are both nearly hundred pounders. School for us was not an option, it was a necessity so that I could physically handle the little giants.  They are beutiful in the flesh and spirit. G * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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If you don’t know the ‘brutal’ techniques then you did not read the books. As the original book had pretty much one single author and that author is no longer among the living and also left the monks years ago I find it interesting that you had lots of conversation time with him. Several people have posted to the board over time about their negative experiences with the Monks – its interesting that at least one person had a positive one. OTOH few quality dog trainers IMO have any desire to emulate the force training techniques advocated in their books. One particular ‘training method’ advocated is the alpha roll which has resulted in severe facial injuries to people attempting to brutally overwhelm their dominant dog by force. GSD’s are IMO a breed extraordinarily tolerant of force training – not all breeds are. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Chris: > Yes there are beautiful hiking spots there.  I do not know to which > ‘brutal’ techniques that person refers; I can only relay to you which I > has been my own personal one to one interactions with numerous of the > monks/authors during the many, MANY hours and days I spent with them. > I not only spoke at length with them but had the great experience of > watching MUCH of the training at various stages first hand.  The > strongest feeling I had coming away from New Skete was one of kindness. > I assure you I, a person who puts my dogs safety, health and happiness > before that of my own (hey, I even keep the Mr. in the kennel, > remember?) absolutely do not, WOULD NOT, WILL NOT stand by idly while > witnessing ANY form of unkind treatment to dogs or any other creature. > One thing one must watch out for though,Chris, while hiking in that > area would be the deer tick and the dreaded Lyme disease.  Take that, > too, from one who knows first hand.  Keep in touch, > G > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I dont need treatment books because i know it all! seriously though, i find the best "book" to be the internet, especially the newsgroups and message boards. Mark. Got questions?  Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

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Unfortunately the monks popularized brutal training methods which have resulted in serious injuries to owners and trainers who attempted the techniques with the wrong dog. There are LOTS of better ways to train than the brutal and unfeeling methods used by the monks. Indeed the person who wrote most of their first book for them (Job Michael Evans) changed his training methods quite a bit when he got back in the real world with real people and their pets and recanted on many of the methods used. He still was IMO a bit of a cold fish about dogs with little emotional response to them as living beings at all – at least in the lectures I saw him give. Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Chris: > I have pretty much discarded all medical reference materials. I kept > finding myself reading and subsquently ‘reading into’ whatever I was > reading about.  I do, however have a good relationship with my pets > doctor and am very comfortable calling to ask his opinion.  Perhaps I > call a bit more than the average client but my vet assures me that my > inquiries are welcome.  Actually that’s one of the reasons I feel so > good about our vet.  I do, however, have all of the books written by > The Monks of New Skete.  Are you familiar?  They are a group of Monks > in upstate New York (Cambridge) who breed German Shepherds.  They raise > them from puppyhood, each monk assigned to no more than one pup each > for quite an extended period of time.  They then sell them to various > organizations such as The Seeing Eye, etc.  They only breed shepherds; > however, they will train (at a hefty fee I might add)any breed.  Their > training techniques are the finest I have ever experienced. They take > the position of Alpha character and actually mimic the pack leader in > the training of the pups.  It is a joy to watch the monks and their > dogs.  They have very loving and sucessful relationship with one > another. I had the pleasure when I lived on the East Coast to take my > dogs there for a very beautiful visit. > By the way, re my obsession with my dogs – I put the mister, not the > G > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Ginger re. Monks of New Skete >I had the pleasure when I lived on the > East Coast to take my dogs there for a > very beautiful visit.

  That must have been wonderful. The pictures in the books look as if they have some great hiking trails.   Perhaps you can answer a question. I keep hearing there is a new book out, or coming out, from the Monks in which they have softened their methods.  Have they discovered clicker-training?

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Chris: I have pretty much discarded all medical reference materials. I kept finding myself reading and subsquently ‘reading into’ whatever I was reading about.  I do, however have a good relationship with my pets doctor and am very comfortable calling to ask his opinion.  Perhaps I call a bit more than the average client but my vet assures me that my inquiries are welcome.  Actually that’s one of the reasons I feel so good about our vet.  I do, however, have all of the books written by The Monks of New Skete.  Are you familiar?  They are a group of Monks in upstate New York (Cambridge) who breed German Shepherds.  They raise them from puppyhood, each monk assigned to no more than one pup each for quite an extended period of time.  They then sell them to various organizations such as The Seeing Eye, etc.  They only breed shepherds; however, they will train (at a hefty fee I might add)any breed.  Their training techniques are the finest I have ever experienced. They take the position of Alpha character and actually mimic the pack leader in the training of the pups.  It is a joy to watch the monks and their dogs.  They have very loving and sucessful relationship with one another. I had the pleasure when I lived on the East Coast to take my dogs there for a very beautiful visit. By the way, re my obsession with my dogs – I put the mister, not the G * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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I had found: Breeding your own show dog by Anne Sereen(sp) and Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook TO be great reference books for dog owner/breeders.

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The Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook by Carlsen and Giffen honestly anything this book doesn’t cover (and much of what it does) I would be at the vet’s office anyway …. The Merck Veterinary Manual behavior stuff The Dog Who Loved Too Much  by Dodman The Dog Who Would be King  by Wright People Pooches and Problems  by Evans Understanding your Dog  Fox Dog Behavior by Dunbar (and his videos and booklets too) UC Davis book is around somewhere Dog Problems – Benjamin Super Puppy – Vollmer (and his other books too) Several books and videos by John Rogerson Don’t Shoot the Dog by Pryor Actually about every behavior book nutty or not that I can find (though I skipped the second Donaldson book having found the first pretty IMO dumb and way too AR oriented to interest me) Genetics books from Coat Color Inheritance to others Guides to canine nutrition Guides to all kinds of dog breeds by all kinds of authors Harper’s Illustrated Handbook of Dogs by Caras Mini Atlas to the giant Atlas books on dogs AKC standards from then to now (I even have one of the really old ones on just ‘working dogs’) Guides to all kinds of training – from specialty training like hunting and protection work to standard obedience training and trick training I’m a serious bookaholic <G> www.bookcloseouts.com www.abebooks.com www.alibris.com www.bibliofind.com etc often have the books at better deals than ebay does <G> Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   My home-treatment books are useless — either outdated, or bad to > begin with. >   What books do you find most informative and useful?

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  My home-treatment books are useless — either outdated, or bad to begin with.   What books do you find most informative and useful?

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>   My home-treatment books are useless — either outdated, or bad to > begin with. >   What books do you find most informative and useful?

In order of importance… Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook is priceless. The UC Davis book is great on body systems, but doesn’t include treatments. A Merck Veterinary manual is a nice luxury… needn’t be the current edition. A current AKC book for standards. World Atlas of dog Breeds for foreign breeds. Culture Clash for understanding dogs, and The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs for understanding our reactions to them. A good breed book or 10. I’ve got a variety of training books representing the different phases I have dabbled in…… Koehler through Evans through Pryor. Several veterinary textbooks in areas I find interesting (skin, coat, behavior). Anatomy and movement books. A visible dog model. The Billinghurst BARF books, and a few Volhard, Pitcairn, etc. Odd breed books from my past. Breed magazine collections. Collections of the Whole Dog Journal, Dogwatch, Your Dog, etc. Show catalogs for addresses. Wanna hear about the videos?? I wholeheartedly recommend sniping on eBay to obtain the textbooks, and older editions of breed books. You can get such great deals, and as far as I’m concerned, you can never have enough books…. this is a real sore spot in my home. I wish my husband would get rid of all his "boring" books so I would have more room for my "interesting" ones. And vice versa! — Toni www.irish-wolfhounds.com Click the "Update on Steve"

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