Question:

> get him in fly ball for fun then!!!! > maybe they have a seniors version?  *G*

Actually, I’m trying to invent a new job for him:   SADAE –  Search and Destroy Anything Edible:-) Lauren Okay, so it was the unopened can of Crisco, along with the punctured bag of red beans (sampled but not finished) that put me over the edge:-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Allow me to introduce the newest member of the pack: > Ben, aka long snout, artful codger, the old coot.  Ben is most > likely a rough collie mix, but with a traditional b&w border > collie rough coat. > Ben is my first experience with a counter-surfing-cat-food- > eating-kitchen-shelf-emptier-baby-gate-jumping dog.  He knows more > ways around barriers than Houdini.  I haven’t tried the double > baby gate yet, because I’m half-afraid he’ll break his durn > neck trying to jump both.  But, since the only other option is to > keep him in my spare bedroom all day (separated from the other > dogs), installation of the second baby gate will be my next > attempt to keep Ben from his kitchen rounds. > Oh, and did I mention that Ben is 12 years old, with stiff back > legs?  I would have LOVED to have known this guy when he was > an adolescent:-) > Lauren

Response:

get him in fly ball for fun then!!!! maybe they have a seniors version?  *G*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Solo has learned that the baby gate to the kitchen (kitty land) can be > >cleared in a standing hop.  Oh well, the cat has quick reflexes and a > >kitty perch, and Solo knows I really don’t want him to eat the cat. > Some Sibe owners stack two baby gates on top of each > other, since the dogs tend to be able to jump pretty > well (and enjoy doing it). > Allow me to introduce the newest member of the pack: > Ben, aka long snout, artful codger, the old coot.  Ben is most > likely a rough collie mix, but with a traditional b&w border > collie rough coat. > Ben is my first experience with a counter-surfing-cat-food- > eating-kitchen-shelf-emptier-baby-gate-jumping dog.  He knows more > ways around barriers than Houdini.  I haven’t tried the double > baby gate yet, because I’m half-afraid he’ll break his durn > neck trying to jump both.  But, since the only other option is to > keep him in my spare bedroom all day (separated from the other > dogs), installation of the second baby gate will be my next > attempt to keep Ben from his kitchen rounds. > Oh, and did I mention that Ben is 12 years old, with stiff back > legs?  I would have LOVED to have known this guy when he was > an adolescent:-) > Lauren

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> >Solo has learned that the baby gate to the kitchen (kitty land) can be >cleared in a standing hop.  Oh well, the cat has quick reflexes and a >kitty perch, and Solo knows I really don’t want him to eat the cat. > Some Sibe owners stack two baby gates on top of each > other, since the dogs tend to be able to jump pretty > well (and enjoy doing it).

Allow me to introduce the newest member of the pack:   Ben, aka long snout, artful codger, the old coot.  Ben is most likely a rough collie mix, but with a traditional b&w border collie rough coat.   Ben is my first experience with a counter-surfing-cat-food- eating-kitchen-shelf-emptier-baby-gate-jumping dog.  He knows more ways around barriers than Houdini.  I haven’t tried the double baby gate yet, because I’m half-afraid he’ll break his durn neck trying to jump both.  But, since the only other option is to keep him in my spare bedroom all day (separated from the other dogs), installation of the second baby gate will be my next attempt to keep Ben from his kitchen rounds. Oh, and did I mention that Ben is 12 years old, with stiff back legs?  I would have LOVED to have known this guy when he was an adolescent:-) Lauren

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My best freind who had two malamutes also had two cats who loved to perch themselves on TOP of the door itself when it was left open.  the dog never figured out how to get them down.  When Amarok did get a hold of a cat he would put his huge paw right on top of it and lick it till it was sopping wet.  then his job was apparently finished and he let the cat up, totally undignified!  *G*  Anora was blind so she just sniffed after the cats.  (ran into the wall a few times when the cats took a sudden upturn.  I think maybe amarok was just getting even for her! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : Tell my poor frightened cat that Sibes don’t have a prey drive.  Thank goodness > : for the baby gate. > Solo has learned that the baby gate to the kitchen (kitty land) can be > cleared in a standing hop.  Oh well, the cat has quick reflexes and a > kitty perch, and Solo knows I really don’t want him to eat the cat. > — >   Melanie Lee Chang                        |  Border Collies are >   Departments of Anthropology and Biology  |  phylogenetically bizarre. >   University of Pennsylvania               |

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>Solo has learned that the baby gate to the kitchen (kitty land) can be >cleared in a standing hop.  Oh well, the cat has quick reflexes and a >kitty perch, and Solo knows I really don’t want him to eat the cat.

Some Sibe owners stack two baby gates on top of each other, since the dogs tend to be able to jump pretty well (and enjoy doing it). —           If you send me harassing email, I’ll probably post it

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nothing makes sense to you. you’re a fruit.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So the answer is, no matter how much one > worships the breed, it is entirely possible for a Border > Collie, even a trained one, to exhibit the FULL range of the > prey drive incluidng the kill part of it. > IIRC, on the other list the fallback point of the people > disagreeing with you was "there’s no such thing as drive, let > alone prey drive."  Which didn’t (and still doesn’t) make a lot > of sense to me. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

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>I can only guess that they’ve never encountered a greyhound who’s seen a >squirrel!

Or even a Siberian husky, LOL!   Tell my poor frightened cat that Sibes don’t have a prey drive.  Thank goodness for the baby gate.   Laura of NC If you can’t be a good example, then you’ll just have to be a horrible warning.  -Catherine Aird-

Response:

Hello blackman,

> I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding > contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I > realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? > If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? > (That’s what they did in the movie.) > Thanks for any discussion on this subject. > Whooo whee  -

That’s what you said when your pal melanie reported her dog was being beaten in the face like you prefer to do to your dog to "train" them to herd sheep. > I made a comment on another list the *occasionally* a > trained but UNSUPERVISED Border Collie has been known to kill a sheep.

THAT’S BECAUSE YOU BEAT THEM IN THE FACE TO CONTROL YOUR UNTRAINED, ILL PREPARED DOGS FROM MOLESTING SHEEP. That’s the same damned problem we’ve recently acknowledged causes dogs to relieve themselves behind your back inside your home becasue we PUNISH them for HOWESbreaking "mistakes." That’s the same damned problem that causes sibling rivalry and dog/dog aggression and child aggression and most aggresion and jealousy problems, blackman… PUNISHING DOGS CAUSES THESE PROBLEMS, blackman. These little problems are a direct result of the mishandling YOU use to "TEACH" them. That’s why Jerry DON’T HURT DOGS to train them… > The discussion devolved into a flame war including the ridiculous > accusation that such a comment was the same as calling all of the breed > "Sheep killers".

Well, now that WE understand it’s YOUR training methods, the dog mightn’t take the blame noMOORE for your viciousness and ineptitude, right blackman? >  Geez.

GEEZ? Don’t F’n GEEZ me when I discredit you. The cure for that is to have unimpeachable information or get the heel outta here blackman. You only understand inflicting pain and intimidation on dogs, or you wouldn’t recommend choking, beating, shocking and locking dogs in boxes and calling it training… > Anyway,

ANYWAY MY @$$. You’re a dog abusing Thug and your methods kill dogs and molest sheep. Now be off with you and your viciousness and excuses and ineffective methods of forcing control, you miserable cretin. > notwithstanding that the Border Collie is still a dog some people find the > notion that a trained BC would kill a sheep to be highly insulting.

I just EXPLAINED the REASON some sheep dogs will KILL sheep, it’s because THUGS LIKE YOU BEAT THEM to get their untrained, out of control "sheep dogs" to not attack the sheep they’re being turned loose on prematurely… GOT IT, THUG? > Let us just assume

Let’s assume NOTHING. Everything I say can be proven in black and white…blackman. > that the perfectly bred Border Collie just can’t kill a > sheep by its genetic nature.

Stop bloowing smoke up our collective butts, you dog abuser. >  Now let’s consider genetics.

A DOG IS A DOG, blackman. > I don’t think

THAT’S WHY I’M HERE TO EXPOSE YOU. > there is a purebred in existence that doesn’t end up with throwbacks.

YOU are a throw back, neanderthal beast. > That is, actual purebred members that show traits that existed in the > early years of developing the breed.  Dogs kill things.  They are > predators.

That’s why we train dogs, blackman. You’re not familiar with training, all you know is jerking and choking and shocking and beating dogs… > Even if we assume we created a breed in which that quality has > been removed by selection

Like our pit bulls are never human aggressive because of the efforts of our loving dogmen who brought us this lovely dog killing breed? Oh, I’m sorry. I used the wrong semantics… this GAME BRED, BIG HEARTED dog??? BWWAWAHAHAHAHAA!!! > it will be inevitable that the trait will reappear from time to time.

NO. IT’S INEVITABLE THE DOGS SHOULD BE TRAINED AND HANDLED PROPERLY. > So the answer is, no matter how much one worships the breed,

You’ll kill any dog you can’t abuse into control… >  it is entirely possible for a Border Collie, even a trained one, to exhibit > the FULL range of the prey drive incluidng the kill part of it.

Sorry blackman, YOU’RE FULL OF CRAP. This is a TRAINING PROBLEM, something YOU and THUGS LIKE YOU encounter because you’re miserably incompetent as "trainers." > I will, this time, pass on attempting to quantify > whether such is "very rare" or "occasional" as those words lack

precision. BWWWAAHAHAAAAAHAHAHAHAAA!!! GET OUTTA HERE YOU DOUBLETALKER! > As for whether the solution is to kill the dog . . . that depends upon > whether the dog is purely a tool, or whether it has value as a

companion. OF COURSE TRAINING WOULD BE OUT OF THE QUESTION…thusly proving my point once again, blackman. You’re a dog abusing Thug. > If it has value as a companion then the solution is simple – don’t leave > the dog unsupervised with sheep.

Because YOU DON’T HAVE TRAINING SOLUTIONS, blackman, because you’re a THUG. > There are a lot of things that COULD be done short of killing the dog,

Yes blackman, I’m working on that right at this very moment. I’m exposing and discrediting our lying, dog abusing Thugs who teach folks to hurt and kill dogs… like you do. > but where the dog is viewed as a farm implement and not a pet killing it is the > most common solution.

Sorry blackman, that’s not something you’ll find around competent dog trainers and sheep dog owners… You’re talking about your pals who hurt and kill dogs to train them, not responsible folks who really know and care about their livestock, blackman. Thank GOD some folks have intelligence and concern for their critters and would NEVER let a Thug like you bring your out of control, untrained dog to molest their sheep. You’ve got to get the heel outta here, you’re a dog abusing Thug. > It is cheap, quick and 100% effective at preventing the problem from > reoccurring.

So are my methods, blackman. I suggest you learn from your pal dogman. He won’t be coming back to our forum… > Diane Blackman > http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html > One can only attempt to insult, it is not complete until accepted.

Yeah, that’s why I write to our readers… You’re finished here. Here’s a couple quotes from my students:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the > literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make > the dog earn everything it gets."  I tried this once or twice, just by > taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible.  The pup > got scared and just wanted to stay away from me. > That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits’ End Dog > Training > manual — that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: make yourself > the center of your puppy’s world — his personal Lord Jesus.  Never > give him a reason to fear you or think you’re angry.  Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy.  She’ll do anything I want > her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent, > and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship > with me. > Charlie

> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring.  Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days.  The last time, Peach didn’t > come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained.  A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence > and its collars.  If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog.  I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again.  The price was too high:-( > ~misty

> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy  foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Rober Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it.  This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior.  Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names.  Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are.   Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to … read more »

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> I don’t think that I mentioned agility.  Some of the trainers I > was referring to train protection and police service dogs. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Really? And they don’t talk "prey" drive, "Defense drive"? That’s strange but I believe. Just goes to show how different geographical areas can be even in dog lingo. Here the whole thing is about drive, bringing up the drive, etc. Gwen

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>There are some very well known dog people who don’t subscribe to >drive theory.

I can only guess that they’ve never encountered a greyhound who’s seen a squirrel! – ANDREA —   Get PAID for the emails you already send and receive!                   ANDROMEDA – Internet Goddess Bloodaxe’s History Links:   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5055/ The Loony Bin Archive:               http://loonies.net800.co.uk/

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> There are some very well known dog people who don’t subscribe to > drive theory. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Maybe in Agility world, but certainly NOT in Schutzhund world ever. Every other word out of Schutzhund trainers mouths is drive this and drive that and before long you might be thinking they are talking about Porches or something.LOL Gwen

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>> There are some very well known dog people who don’t > subscribe to drive theory. > Maybe in Agility world, but certainly NOT in Schutzhund > world ever.

I don’t think that I mentioned agility.  Some of the trainers I was referring to train protection and police service dogs. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

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> So the answer is, no matter how much one > worships the breed, it is entirely possible for a Border > Collie, even a trained one, to exhibit the FULL range of the > prey drive incluidng the kill part of it.

IIRC, on the other list the fallback point of the people disagreeing with you was "there’s no such thing as drive, let alone prey drive."  Which didn’t (and still doesn’t) make a lot of sense to me. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

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> IIRC, on the other list the fallback point of the people > disagreeing with you was "there’s no such thing as drive, let > alone prey drive."  Which didn’t (and still doesn’t) make a lot > of sense to me. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

No such thing as drive? Prey drive? These people are dog people, claiming no such thing as drive or prey drive? Or am I reading this completely wrong? Gwen Blade says I have all the drive in the world and then some

Response:

> Me either, but I’ve had the same conversation on other email > lists.  Sometimes it seems to boil down to people just not > liking the term "drive" and substituting other words.

It was claimed that the herding traits of BCs were mostly a result of the shepherd breeding the best herding dogs to the best herding dogs.  Over a hundred generations, they became great herders. I’m not saying that this was the majority viewpoint, but it was bought into the discussion. > What list was this disagreement on?

Pro Trainer. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

> No such thing as drive? Prey drive? These people are > dog people, claiming no such thing as drive or prey drive?

There are some very well known dog people who don’t subscribe to drive theory. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

> I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding > contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I > realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? > If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? > (That’s what they did in the movie.) > Thanks for any discussion on this subject.

Whooo whee  - I made a comment on another list the *occasionally* a trained but UNSUPERVISED Border Collie has been known to kill a sheep. The discussion devolved into a flame war including the ridiculous accusation that such a comment was the same as calling all of the breed "Sheep killers". Geez.  Anyway, notwithstanding that the Border Collie is still a dog some people find the notion that a trained BC would kill a sheep to be highly insulting.   Let us just assume that the perfectly bred Border Collie just can’t kill a sheep by its genetic nature.  Now let’s consider genetics.  I don’t think there is a purebred in existence that doesn’t end up with throwbacks. That is, actual purebred members that show traits that existed in the early years of developing the breed.  Dogs kill things.  They are predators.  Even if we assume we created a breed in which that quality has been removed by selection it will be inevitable that the trait will reappear from time to time.  So the answer is, no matter how much one worships the breed, it is entirely possible for a Border Collie, even a trained one, to exhibit the FULL range of the prey drive incluidng the kill part of it.  I will, this time, pass on attempting to quantify whether such is "very rare" or "occasional" as those words lack precision. As for whether the solution is to kill the dog . . . that depends upon whether the dog is purely a tool, or whether it has value as a companion. If it has value as a companion then the solution is simple – don’t leave the dog unsupervised with sheep.  There are a lot of things that COULD be done short of killing the dog, but where the dog is viewed as a farm implement and not a pet killing it is the most common solution.  It is cheap, quick and 100% effective at preventing the problem from reoccurring. Diane Blackman http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html One can only attempt to insult, it is not complete until accepted.

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My uncle had to put a calf down because some of the ‘reserve’ dogs ripped it up and left it.  He then shot several of them on his land.  There is no training with those dogs, it was really sad.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m a BC owner and I own sheep.  I’ve never had my dogs get into the sheep > unless we were working and they were prompted to.  When I say "That’ll do", > that’s it for the day.  I have had herding dogs (not my own) that came in > twos and threes and killed some of my sheep.  These were not trained dogs > but dogs who were left to roam by careless and neglectful owners. > Borzoi Mommy > I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding > contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone. I > realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? > If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog > down? > (That’s what they did in the movie.) > Thanks for any discussion on this subject. > Margaret

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oh, sorry, the crate is in my sons room, and when we were doing the day crating, she was RIGHT beside us all the time.  We put in the ‘comfy’ bed with a pillow and several of her chew toys that she immediately took to, as well we gave her treats and talked to her to sooth her down.  we put her food dish and water dish in there and left it wide open during the day and she eventually became familiar with it enough to eat inside it and grab some water between running around. we are well aware of the isolation factor, and really we can’t have a dominant dog, and so far she has measured up very well to what we need her for.  she looks to my son and I for the food and training, and my husband for the taking out and peeing.  She goes into the bathroom with us instead of crating her when we are showering.  etc… She can see my son on the bed, and the crate is has ‘window grates?’ along all sides and the door, and shes not isolated, ever from us.  thats part of the training, to keep her with us at all times, but we need to get her use to the crate.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> | Luckily we don’t have any neighbours on the attached townhome, (we are at > | the end of the row and on a corner) and the next door is being painted and > | redone this month.  So we have clear sailing for a few weeks and so > Licorice > | can yipe all she wants in her crate til shes quiet…  *yes so far as she > | knows I’m the alpha AND the big ol’ meany* > The crying in her crate, while common and frequently unavoidable, is still > something bad.  Isolation from mother and siblings is unnatural–it would > mean certain death in the wild.  Add to that her adopted human family > pushing her aside, separating her from them, and you can guess how upset she > must be and why she cries.  Those cries are meant to tug at your heart > strings, and they are sincere expressions of unhappiness. > The notion of using isolation to establish hierarchy, to show her you are > "alpha," is alarming.  Not only is it cruel, it reveals a fundamental > misunderstanding of dogs.  This is why I hate the tremendous amount of alpha > theory in books by writers who think that dog behavior is always about > dominance and who advocate a lot of mistreatment in order to establish a > human as "leader." > If your puppy is crying, don’t be proud that her cries fall on deaf ears, or > gloat that you are her "alpha."  Do what you can to make her predicament > better.  Give her a warm, fuzzy blanket or stuffed animal.  Perhaps place > her crate at closer proximity to you or your son.  I read here of someone > who puts a new puppy’s crate on a chair so it is level with her on her bed, > where the puppy can see, hear, smell her, and where she can reach her > fingers through the bars to reassure it. > Still, whatever you do, the puppy is going to cry some.  Just don’t revel in > it, thinking you are subjugating it, that causing it to suffer is a > necessary part of asserting yourself.  I worry about what that line of > thinking could lead to in the future. > Jeff > Jeff Harper > jeff#doplay.com

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I’m a BC owner and I own sheep.  I’ve never had my dogs get into the sheep unless we were working and they were prompted to.  When I say "That’ll do", that’s it for the day.  I have had herding dogs (not my own) that came in twos and threes and killed some of my sheep.  These were not trained dogs but dogs who were left to roam by careless and neglectful owners. Borzoi Mommy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding > contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I > realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? > If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? > (That’s what they did in the movie.) > Thanks for any discussion on this subject. > Margaret

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> | Luckily we don’t have any neighbours on the attached townhome, (we are at > | the end of the row and on a corner) and the next door is being painted and > | redone this month.  So we have clear sailing for a few weeks and so > Licorice > | can yipe all she wants in her crate til shes quiet…  *yes so far as she > | knows I’m the alpha AND the big ol’ meany* > The crying in her crate, while common and frequently unavoidable, is still > something bad.  Isolation from mother and siblings is unnatural–it would > mean certain death in the wild.  Add to that her adopted human family > pushing her aside, separating her from them, and you can guess how upset she > must be and why she cries.  Those cries are meant to tug at your heart > strings, and they are sincere expressions of unhappiness. > The notion of using isolation to establish hierarchy, to show her you are > "alpha," is alarming.  Not only is it cruel, it reveals a fundamental > misunderstanding of dogs.  This is why I hate the tremendous amount of alpha > theory in books by writers who think that dog behavior is always about > dominance and who advocate a lot of mistreatment in order to establish a > human as "leader." > If your puppy is crying, don’t be proud that her cries fall on deaf ears, or > gloat that you are her "alpha."  Do what you can to make her predicament > better.  Give her a warm, fuzzy blanket or stuffed animal.  Perhaps place > her crate at closer proximity to you or your son.  I read here of someone > who puts a new puppy’s crate on a chair so it is level with her on her bed, > where the puppy can see, hear, smell her, and where she can reach her > fingers through the bars to reassure it. > Still, whatever you do, the puppy is going to cry some.  Just don’t revel in > it, thinking you are subjugating it, that causing it to suffer is a > necessary part of asserting yourself.  I worry about what that line of > thinking could lead to in the future. > Jeff > Jeff Harper > jeff#doplay.com

Jeff, I believe this is the woman who is training her puppy to be a seizure alert dog.  Your comments regarding puppy care are important and I hope she will read them carefully. M

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| Luckily we don’t have any neighbours on the attached townhome, (we are at | the end of the row and on a corner) and the next door is being painted and | redone this month.  So we have clear sailing for a few weeks and so Licorice | can yipe all she wants in her crate til shes quiet…  *yes so far as she | knows I’m the alpha AND the big ol’ meany* The crying in her crate, while common and frequently unavoidable, is still something bad.  Isolation from mother and siblings is unnatural–it would mean certain death in the wild.  Add to that her adopted human family pushing her aside, separating her from them, and you can guess how upset she must be and why she cries.  Those cries are meant to tug at your heart strings, and they are sincere expressions of unhappiness. The notion of using isolation to establish hierarchy, to show her you are "alpha," is alarming.  Not only is it cruel, it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of dogs.  This is why I hate the tremendous amount of alpha theory in books by writers who think that dog behavior is always about dominance and who advocate a lot of mistreatment in order to establish a human as "leader." If your puppy is crying, don’t be proud that her cries fall on deaf ears, or gloat that you are her "alpha."  Do what you can to make her predicament better.  Give her a warm, fuzzy blanket or stuffed animal.  Perhaps place her crate at closer proximity to you or your son.  I read here of someone who puts a new puppy’s crate on a chair so it is level with her on her bed, where the puppy can see, hear, smell her, and where she can reach her fingers through the bars to reassure it. Still, whatever you do, the puppy is going to cry some.  Just don’t revel in it, thinking you are subjugating it, that causing it to suffer is a necessary part of asserting yourself.  I worry about what that line of thinking could lead to in the future. Jeff Jeff Harper jeff#doplay.com

Response:

I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? (That’s what they did in the movie.) Thanks for any discussion on this subject. Margaret

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| I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding | contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I | realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? | If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? | (That’s what they did in the movie.) | | Thanks for any discussion on this subject. I’ve read that the shepherding ability derives from prey drive, unlike the protective behavior of dogs bred strictly for the protection of livestock. Wolves, dogs’ ancestors, frequently "herd" their prey. Jeff Jeff Harper jeff#doplay.com

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I beleive the stats on incidents like that are suprisingly high, and not uncommon.  Check out bite stats of breed dogs online, I think I came accross a site that dealt with biteing and the ‘reported’ incidence for breeds and types of dogs, and working dogs as well as various conditions were taken into consideration.  (working, if the dog was in heat or near a dog in heat, around children, age of dog etc… ) I wish I would have bookmarked more sites!  Or at least remembered the organization/group(s) that had those stats. But its now 4:30 in the morning and Licorice just went and did her poo outside, and is now just finished only 5 minutes of whimpering, (the times really been cut back since we put her in her crate off and on all day yesterday) in her crate for the rest of the night!  Oddly, my son doesn’t even flinch when she starts up… so far so good. Luckily we don’t have any neighbours on the attached townhome, (we are at the end of the row and on a corner) and the next door is being painted and redone this month.  So we have clear sailing for a few weeks and so Licorice can yipe all she wants in her crate til shes quiet…  *yes so far as she knows I’m the alpha AND the big ol’ meany*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just finished watching a movie on TV about a well-trained, sheep herding > contest winning Border Collie that killed sheep when it was left alone.  I > realize this was a TV show, but I’m wondering if this can actually occur? > If so, what would cause this behavior?  Is the solution to put the dog down? > (That’s what they did in the movie.) > Thanks for any discussion on this subject. > Margaret

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