Question:

>I disagree somewhat.  Isolation is a damned big gun to use on minor >problems, though.  I’ve crated dogs for "timeouts" and it doesn’t >seem to affect their willingness to use their crate at other times. >But I do it rarely, and as almost the last resort ("last resort" is >reserved for permanant i.e.lethal "corrections").

Why are you giving them time out? What did they do?? Bob Maida

Response:

>>I disagree somewhat.  Isolation is a damned big gun to use on minor >problems, though.  I’ve crated dogs for "timeouts" and it doesn’t >seem to affect their willingness to use their crate at other times. >But I do it rarely, and as almost the last resort ("last resort" is >reserved for permanant i.e.lethal "corrections"). >Why are you giving them time out? What did they do??

Scrapping, usually.  I prefer to use a down-stay, but for a pup that doesn’t HAVE a down-stay, I’ll shove ‘em in the crate for 5 minutes or so.  We don’t have many serious scraps (lots of wrestling, though), and often the dogs head to their crates on their own after being separated. I "timed out" the new pup a few days ago for excessive barking.  He barks for attention, likes being sprayed with water, and considers *any* response (like looking at him or saying "NO!") to be encouraging.  In retrospect, I probably should have just ignored him – he *does* give up when it doesn’t get the desired results.  Then again, I ignored him last night and he jumped in my lap.  Twice.  Hard to ignore a 45 lb dog that has just thumped onto one’s thighs.  He was much subdued after 5 minutes (a SILENT 5 minutes, I might add).  He originally fought being crated quite vigorously, but the regular application of cheesy Kongs has overcome that aversion. He isn’t quite to the point where he’ll run into the crate on his own, but he goes in willingly enough when I point or lob the Kong in there.  Being given a time-out didn’t affect his willingness to be crated as far as I can tell. I have also encouraged the dogs to head for their crates when they’ve done something infuriatingly destructive or messy – yelling tends to send ‘em to their "home free" zone, and I’m a yeller by nature.  Getting better with practice, but it still happens sometimes.  That isn’t a "timeout" per se, they just prefer to avoid me when I’m "that way" (and I don’t blame them for that, *I* would avoid me when I’m yelling). Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:  Raise a Fund; ANZ Sam-I-Am; ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good;  ANZ Babylon Ranger; kitties from h*ll;

Response:

>>Crate should NEVER be used for punishment. >I disagree somewhat.  Isolation is a damned big gun to use on minor >problems, though.  I’ve crated dogs for "timeouts" and it doesn’t >seem to affect their willingness to use their crate at other times. >But I do it rarely, and as almost the last resort ("last resort" is >reserved for permanant i.e.lethal "corrections").

Crating for time-outs is much different than using a crate as punishment for a particular act of disobedience. Moreover, crating for punishment should never be used on puppies or young dogs (especially during that same period you are using the crate to HOUSEBREAK your puppy or young dog.)  It sends too many mixed-messages to young minds.  You should want your puppy to only see the crate as a safe haven during this important period.  Not as a punishment or bannishment device. >Withdrawing attention (isolation, shunning) is a powerful correction >for most dogs, to be used for the briefest of effective times.

You bet.  But you really don’t want to use the crate to do this with, especially for puppies and very young dogs.  AFTER a dog is already well-housbroken and has fully matured, using the crate for simple time outs isn’t a problem.   — Dogman E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam Joey "Dogs" Vaffanculo Contract Locating and Communication Company http://www.i1.net/~dogman Remember the Pierce collies! http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm On retriever field trials http://www.i1.net/~dogman/ontrials.htm

Response:

>Crate should NEVER be used for punishment.

I disagree somewhat.  Isolation is a damned big gun to use on minor problems, though.  I’ve crated dogs for "timeouts" and it doesn’t seem to affect their willingness to use their crate at other times. But I do it rarely, and as almost the last resort ("last resort" is reserved for permanant i.e.lethal "corrections"). Withdrawing attention (isolation, shunning) is a powerful correction for most dogs, to be used for the briefest of effective times. Other than "because they start to hate the crate", is there some other reason to "never" use a crate for punishment, Bob?  My experience is quite limited, but none of my 3 "hate" their crates and I’ve isolated each of them at least once.  As I said, it’s a BIG gun and I don’t do it often – but seldom is more than "never". Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:  Raise a Fund; ANZ Sam-I-Am; ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good;  ANZ Babylon Ranger; kitties from h*ll;

Response:

>I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every >now and then is a bad thing. >snip

The thing about puppy biting is that this is the time you have to teach your puppy to control its biting so that it doesn’t hurt others. A muzzle will not teach your puppy bite inhibition. If you have a problem that is getting worse, please get professional help with it immediately. A couple of sessions with a good behaviorist now could save your dog’s life later! It should be possible to turn this around right now, but you need the information to do it properly. Be sure that you are *not* doing an alpha roll with the puppy. Treating your puppy roughly should not be necessary to teach it not to bite, there are better methods available. The alpha roll has been found to teach the dog roughness as a dominance trait, which then might be used on humans (or other dogs) that the dog will later see as subordinate. Some dogs resent this and get angry rather than submissive. If you feel you need an alpha roll to dominate your dog, working with a qualified trainer should help you find better, less rough ways to teach what you want to teach him. It is difficult (and even dangerous) to try to give advice on the matter of biting without observing your interactions with your dog, so I will not try. The wrong advice would be worse than useless, it could cause a disaster… To find a good trainer, ask at your local animal shelter and veterinarian. Talk to people with well behaved dogs and to people in dog clubs. You will start to hear the same name(s) come up in different situations – this is where you look for your help. It shouldn’t be too expensive and you will be much happier when your puppy is on the right track! Carol — Patchwork English Setters and Carwyn Silky Terriers http://www.prodogs.com/dbn/carwyn/index.htm

Response:

>> My question is…..what kind of meds is JoeBobSteve on? If they could > only send some to ChipNicKen maybe CHipNicKen would give some sensible > advice.  I have only been lurkin here for a few weeks but from what I > have read so far I’m sure anyone with any kind of a clue would see > that Joe….Bob….and Steve have given sound advice….whereas > Chip…Nick…Ken have all been somewhat (if not way) out there. >Since ken hasn’t *given* any advice I’d say your posting is pretty >much moot. You’d better search for some meds, dear. >(Ken)

My intention was to put some levity in these posts…..lighten up !!!! LOLOLOLOL MaryBeth

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Do not use a muzzle unless you tell him that he is a bad dog while >>you are putting it on him.  I would recommend that you buy a cage >>and when he gets too rough tell him that he is a bad dog and cage >>him up for a while. > Bad advice. Merely a copout and can be quite confusing to the dog. > Crate should NEVER be used for punishment. A muzzle is needed ONLY > for dangerous dogs that are beyond all hope. >Just another warning to the NEWBIES out there:  Pay this cretin no >mind.  He’s a CLUELESS TROLL (aka NicKenChip) who is here merely to >agitate and provoke.  His day of reckoning is coming. > In the meantime, it behooves you to pretty much IGNORE whatever >"advice" this clown offers anyone regarding DOGS. > I’ll second Joe on that one. >  In the interim: > 1. Avoid all games or behaviors on your part that trigger the nipping > 2. Find a trainer that can work with you an pup. An inperson trainer >  AFTER OBSERVING all parties can come up with what is humane, > effective and best for all.Seek out a trainer via your vet(be sure you >  describe behaviors so they referr you to whoever is best for this >  specific problem) or breed rescue. The latter may be your best >  source for a credible referral. > Bob Maida > Dog Training/ Problem Counseling > Manassas,Va

You cannot believe JoeBobSteve, they are one in the same.  They do give occasional good advice. The crate should only be used if the dog is not living in it.  It does work very very well. Chip

Response:

> You cannot believe JoeBobSteve, they are one in the same.  They do > give occasional good advice. The crate should only be used if the > dog is not living in it.  It does work very very well. > Chip

I can’t wait to hear what (Ken) has to say about this, you pathetic dipshit.         Steve Barnard

Response:

Chip wrote- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Do not use a muzzle unless you tell him that he is a bad dog while > >>you are putting it on him.  I would recommend that you buy a cage > >>and when he gets too rough tell him that he is a bad dog and cage > >>him up for a while. Joe wrote- > Bad advice. Merely a copout and can be quite confusing to the dog. > Crate should NEVER be used for punishment. A muzzle is needed ONLY > for dangerous dogs that are beyond all hope. > I’ll second Joe on that one. <snip> > Bob Maida >You cannot believe JoeBobSteve, they are one in the same.  They do >give occasional good advice. The crate should only be used if the >dog is not living in it.  It does work very very well. >Chip

My question is…..what kind of meds is JoeBobSteve on? If they could only send some to ChipNicKen maybe CHipNicKen would give some sensible advice.  I have only been lurkin here for a few weeks but from what I have read so far I’m sure anyone with any kind of a clue would see that Joe….Bob….and Steve have given sound advice….whereas Chip…Nick…Ken have all been somewhat (if not way) out there.I would imagine if Joe Bob and Steve are one person ….therefore a split personality as I would suppose the others are then maybe they can share the meds and we wouldn’t have so much whacko advice. However even tho it has given me many a chuckle, I hope no newbies will pay much attention to ppl that advocate using a crate to ‘punish’ a dog.  Sheesh. MaryBeth

Response:

> My question is…..what kind of meds is JoeBobSteve on? If they could > only send some to ChipNicKen maybe CHipNicKen would give some sensible > advice.  I have only been lurkin here for a few weeks but from what I > have read so far I’m sure anyone with any kind of a clue would see > that Joe….Bob….and Steve have given sound advice….whereas > Chip…Nick…Ken have all been somewhat (if not way) out there.

Since ken hasn’t *given* any advice I’d say your posting is pretty much moot. You’d better search for some meds, dear. (Ken)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You MUST cut the Q out of ‘carolq’ in the apparent return address > or your message will bounce! This is anti-spam protection. > I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every > now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he > Yes.  It’s completely inappropriate to muzzle a young puppy.  You’ll > just make him worse.  He’ll be upset and confused, and won’t learn a > thing, and his development, in all senses, will be badly affected. > seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ > way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a > Puppies play hard. > dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at > six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to > Puppies usually learn bite inhibition from ages 5 weeks through 7 > weeks.  You got your puppy too young; no help for it now, but for > you to provide the training he missed.  Don’t worry about the > dominance angle, but DO put him on an anti-dominance training > program – a gentle one – and train him in bite inhibition.  This > will be a slow process, and take many months, but the payoff will be > giant. > enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has > had all his shots. > Right; don’t expose him until his immunity is reasonable.  (My > personal opinion; some people do it; it’s a mite risky; sometimes > the benefits of a really good puppy class outweigh the risks [till > the dog catches parvo or something].) > Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? > Thanks for any suggestions you may have. > A quick summary:  Use a pen, a crate, or a room, to confine the dog > when you’re not supervising or playing with him.  (A recent thread > talked about a cocker who jumps a baby gate – I didn’t get around to > replying – just dismantle one of those wire exercise pens, and use a > few panels as a gate – I use screw-eyes and gate hooks, in walls (so > it’s my house, I can do what I want <g>).  Your pup should be on a > 24-hour training program, reasonably scheduled for his age.  His > confinement area should be with the family, nearby, but where he > won’t get stepped on when he’s sleeping, or roused out of a sound > sleep.  Train him that you’re the pack leader by going through doors > before he does (hold him back, then let him through after you’ve > gone through), bumping into him if he’s in your way (GENTLY) – "walk > through him), keeping him off the furniture (use the command OFF), > and so forth – there are lots of things.  Check books by Kilcommons, > Benjamin, Pryor, for additional suggestions.  Train bite inhibition > by feeding him kibbles, one at a time, for several minutes before > putting his kibbles down for him to eat at his mealtime.  Hold a > kibble between your fingers, put your fingers right in his mouth; if > he grabs or tries to bite hard, yelp, and remove the kibble.  He’ll > catch on quickly to that one.  Make him sit before he gets his full > bowl, and hold him back, then release him with a release word, such > as "Okay!".  ALWAYS praise when he’s good!  Say nothing when he’s > bad.  When he bites in play, yelp, turn your back, give him a toy to > hold and chew.  When he’s wild, confine him in his crate and let him > sleep ("time-out.").  Make sure he gets enough puppy-play exercise > each 24 hours. > As I’m rushed this morning, I’ll let others fill in details. > — >  * RoseReader 2.52B P001545 Entered at [BB&C]

I am glad to see that there is someong else who agrees with the standard and accepted training methods in use today. Chip

Response:

You MUST cut the Q out of ‘carolq’ in the apparent return address or your message will bounce! This is anti-spam protection. > If dominant correction of puppy biting behavior makes the behavior worse I > suggest you try explaining to your dog that the action is *hurting* you. > This can be easily accomplished by making a high pitched *yipe* when a > tooth even grazes you and cease *all* play for a bit. Now some pups will > come back at you and touch you again with teeth but you can tell by their > manner that they are checking to see if this is what got the *bad* reaction > from you. Some will get a demon look and come back harder than ever – > *these* are the pups that need alpha type correction like an adult dog > would do.

Some would do well with alpha correction – some do not.  Lots depends on where their communication abilities lie; many other factors enter as well.  A correction (or prevention) that works well with dogs who only get more aggressive with an alpha roll, or a scruff-scold (I prefer a scruff-HOLD to a scruff-SHAKE, especially for small dogs) is the timeout.  Crate the dog and walk away.  The more apparently alpha the dog, the more the timeout works better than the alpha roll or scruff-shake.  It’s essential to include complete 24-hour training with this kind of dog; Kilcommons’s Grounding, Carol Lea Benjamin’s Nothing In Life Is Free, something like that.  There’s always that variable element between dogs, though, that can never be fully described online – so which methods are used depend very much on the individual situation, which is where the good trainers come in <g>. > The reason the ‘explanation’ is needed first is that pups escalate their > play to be rougher and more aggressively noisy as they grow but *normally* > in the litter they are also learning bite inhibition at the same time so > they get louder and rougher but bite more gently with more control. Your

This also continues over quite a period, with slow-maturing dogs like my Australian Terriers.  (I now have my fourth and fifth, all have followed similar patterns, but some of my breeder’s dogs are more laid-back than mine, which are about as feisty as dogs of good breeding and temperament get in this breed – I’m up on it because I’m still going through it <g>.) > loudness and roughness may be signaling your dog for more and harder bite > behavior instead of a reduction in bite behavior. I do not think a muzzle

Exactly, which is why a defusing approach is needed.  The one-time alpha roll correction is a myth, until the dog has developed a complex and fairly complete communication with humans, which is greatly aided by training standard and household obedience commands, from 7 weeks on:  Come, Sit, Down, Off, Leave It, eventually, Take It, Bring, Stay, Quiet, and a lot of others.  My three-book doggie bible works well in combination: Pryor, Kilcommons, Benjamin.  There are other excellent books also, on dog behavior, with training suggestions. > would *teach* your pup much but your feeling there is already a need for > one concerns me. I think your dog at this point is more at risk of dying > from inappropriate bite behavior than poor immunization and you should get > yourself to a trainer for help pronto.

Exactly.  This dog-owner needs to train himself first, with the help of a really good trainer.  And study, as well; reading really does help.  It takes careful thinking and planning to make the right routine for a feisty puppy, and bring him through his stages – discipline thyself first, then thy dog, with knowledge and respect for what the animal is, and for what he can be, and will become, with appropriate, fair, and consistent training. —  * RoseReader 2.52B P001545 Entered at [BB&C]

Response:

>>Do not use a muzzle unless you tell him that he is a bad dog while >you are putting it on him.  I would recommend that you buy a cage >and when he gets too rough tell him that he is a bad dog and cage >him up for a while.

Bad advice. Merely a copout and can be quite confusing to the dog. Crate should NEVER be used for punishment. A muzzle is needed ONLY for dangerous dogs that are beyond all hope. >Just another warning to the NEWBIES out there:  Pay this cretin no >mind.  He’s a CLUELESS TROLL (aka NicKenChip) who is here merely to >agitate and provoke.  His day of reckoning is coming. > In the meantime, it behooves you to pretty much IGNORE whatever >"advice" this clown offers anyone regarding DOGS.

I’ll second Joe on that one.  In the interim: 1. Avoid all games or behaviors on your part that trigger the nipping 2. Find a trainer that can work with you an pup. An inperson trainer  AFTER OBSERVING all parties can come up with what is humane, effective and best for all.Seek out a trainer via your vet(be sure you  describe behaviors so they referr you to whoever is best for this  specific problem) or breed rescue. The latter may be your best  source for a credible referral. Bob Maida Dog Training/ Problem Counseling Manassas,Va

Response:

> I have found the best way to break a younger dog of biting is to >  stick my hand way back into his mouth when he tries to bite, at the > same time saying "No bite."  They seem to hate the choking sensation.

Then This is a good and affective (effective?) idea.  You can also try holding his muzzle closed.  Holding a dogs muzzle is an instinctive form of canine discipline.  It is used in wolf packs as a form of ‘correction’ for a member that is ‘asking for it’.  As for your original question, I think a muzzle is much too extreme.  If you think you need a muzzle now then just wait.  Muzzles are NOT a correction.  Putting a muzzle on a dog might keep them from biting, but it doesn’t TEACH them not to bite.  If you can’t correct him through other means he will always have to wear a muzzle. Throw the muzzle away.  Either you must succeed in changing his behavior or he will need a larger, permanent muzzle.  Also, your dog seems pretty young to be terribly concerned with biting.  It should be discouraged, but at 11 weeks it is natural.

Response:

You MUST cut the Q out of ‘carolq’ in the apparent return address or your message will bounce! This is anti-spam protection. > I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every > now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he

Yes.  It’s completely inappropriate to muzzle a young puppy.  You’ll just make him worse.  He’ll be upset and confused, and won’t learn a thing, and his development, in all senses, will be badly affected. > seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ > way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a

Puppies play hard. > dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at > six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to

Puppies usually learn bite inhibition from ages 5 weeks through 7 weeks.  You got your puppy too young; no help for it now, but for you to provide the training he missed.  Don’t worry about the dominance angle, but DO put him on an anti-dominance training program – a gentle one – and train him in bite inhibition.  This will be a slow process, and take many months, but the payoff will be giant. > enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has > had all his shots.

Right; don’t expose him until his immunity is reasonable.  (My personal opinion; some people do it; it’s a mite risky; sometimes the benefits of a really good puppy class outweigh the risks [till the dog catches parvo or something].) > Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? > Thanks for any suggestions you may have.

A quick summary:  Use a pen, a crate, or a room, to confine the dog when you’re not supervising or playing with him.  (A recent thread talked about a cocker who jumps a baby gate – I didn’t get around to replying – just dismantle one of those wire exercise pens, and use a few panels as a gate – I use screw-eyes and gate hooks, in walls (so it’s my house, I can do what I want <g>).  Your pup should be on a 24-hour training program, reasonably scheduled for his age.  His confinement area should be with the family, nearby, but where he won’t get stepped on when he’s sleeping, or roused out of a sound sleep.  Train him that you’re the pack leader by going through doors before he does (hold him back, then let him through after you’ve gone through), bumping into him if he’s in your way (GENTLY) – "walk through him), keeping him off the furniture (use the command OFF), and so forth – there are lots of things.  Check books by Kilcommons, Benjamin, Pryor, for additional suggestions.  Train bite inhibition by feeding him kibbles, one at a time, for several minutes before putting his kibbles down for him to eat at his mealtime.  Hold a kibble between your fingers, put your fingers right in his mouth; if he grabs or tries to bite hard, yelp, and remove the kibble.  He’ll catch on quickly to that one.  Make him sit before he gets his full bowl, and hold him back, then release him with a release word, such as "Okay!".  ALWAYS praise when he’s good!  Say nothing when he’s bad.  When he bites in play, yelp, turn your back, give him a toy to hold and chew.  When he’s wild, confine him in his crate and let him sleep ("time-out.").  Make sure he gets enough puppy-play exercise each 24 hours. As I’m rushed this morning, I’ll let others fill in details. —  * RoseReader 2.52B P001545 Entered at [BB&C]

Response:

[...] >Do not use a muzzle unless you tell him that he is a bad dog while >you are putting it on him.  I would recommend that you buy a cage >and when he gets too rough tell him that he is a bad dog and cage >him up for a while.  You should also never smack him about the face as >many people do.  This makes dogs mean.  Your dog is probably just >teathing.  Get him some rawhide bones to chew on. >Chip

Just another warning to the NEWBIES out there:  Pay this cretin no mind.  He’s a CLUELESS TROLL (aka NicKenChip) who is here merely to agitate and provoke.  His day of reckoning is coming.  In the meantime, it behooves you to pretty much IGNORE whatever "advice" this clown offers anyone regarding DOGS. — Dogman E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam Joey "Dogs" Vaffanculo Contract Locating and Communication Company http://www.i1.net/~dogman Remember the Pierce collies! http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm

Response:

Promise Halters are really good for this.  You can leave the halter on him in the house (with the long line attached) and when you’re taking him for a walk.  When he does this, give him a tug on the leash to let him know it’s not appropriate.  The halter goes over the mouth and nose, but doesn’t restrict them unless you pull on the halter (the dog can still eat, drink, pant, etc.).  The halter will tightly encircle the dog’s muzzle just as a leader dog in a dog pack would do to discipline a younger member.  This is very effective, and I swear by the Promise Halter.  The halter also comes with a good book explaining how to use it to correct specific behavior problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every > now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he > seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ > way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a > dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at > six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to > enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has > had all his shots. > Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? > Thanks for any suggestions you may have. > b.c.

Response:

If dominant correction of puppy biting behavior makes the behavior worse I suggest you try explaining to your dog that the action is *hurting* you. This can be easily accomplished by making a high pitched *yipe* when a tooth even grazes you and cease *all* play for a bit. Now some pups will come back at you and touch you again with teeth but you can tell by their manner that they are checking to see if this is what got the *bad* reaction from you. Some will get a demon look and come back harder than ever – *these* are the pups that need alpha type correction like an adult dog would do. The reason the ‘explanation’ is needed first is that pups escalate their play to be rougher and more aggressively noisy as they grow but *normally* in the litter they are also learning bite inhibition at the same time so they get louder and rougher but bite more gently with more control. Your loudness and roughness may be signaling your dog for more and harder bite behavior instead of a reduction in bite behavior. I do not think a muzzle would *teach* your pup much but your feeling there is already a need for one concerns me. I think your dog at this point is more at risk of dying from inappropriate bite behavior than poor immunization and you should get yourself to a trainer for help pronto. Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every > now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he > seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ > way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a > dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at > six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to > enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has > had all his shots. > Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? > Thanks for any suggestions you may have. > b.c.

Response:

I have found the best way to break a younger dog of biting is to  stick my hand way back into his mouth when he tries to bite, at the same time saying "No bite."  They seem to hate the choking sensation. Then when he quits use lavish praise and a possible treat.  After a few times of this I am sure you will see a difference.   I feel that a muzzle should be used for an older dog, if even used at all. A pup is probably just playing.  Good luck.  Becky

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I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has had all his shots. Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? Thanks for any suggestions you may have. b.c.

Response:

> I was wondering if using them to control excessive puppy biting every > now and then is a bad thing.  I have an 11 week old male dobe and he > seems to have an obsession with biting not only in a playful ‘mouthy’ > way, but in a hard snappy way as well.  I’ve been told that it’s a > dominance thing and tried several methods in fixing this (I got him at > six weeks old) but it seems to actually be getting worse.  I intend to > enroll in obedience classes eventually, but want to wait until he has > had all his shots. > Is it wrong to use a muzzle on him when he gets too out of control? > Thanks for any suggestions you may have. > b.c.

Do not use a muzzle unless you tell him that he is a bad dog while you are putting it on him.  I would recommend that you buy a cage and when he gets too rough tell him that he is a bad dog and cage him up for a while.  You should also never smack him about the face as many people do.  This makes dogs mean.  Your dog is probably just teathing.  Get him some rawhide bones to chew on. Chip

Response:

I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what kind to use? So far I am leaning towards the vinyl basket type seen in NE Serum Catalog as it permits breathing as in open mouthed panting and drinking (both critical for a dog in a nerve wracking situation IMO). Any suggestions for one that will stay on a very smart agile little dog? I know the Velcro closure ones that hold the mouth shut would not stay on her for a moment as even my friend’s sharpei can whip those off! Nancy

Response:

I saw a vet column in Citizen Murdoch’s www.the-times.co.uk in which the vet preferred the basket style although I haven’t seen them around San Francisco recently. (In S.F., you can take a dog on a bus, except around rush hour, with a fare and a muzzle, so it’s a useful thing to have especially during the rainy season when a walk can be interrupted by a sudden storm.) ======= No honest business is promoted by spam with the possible exception of Hormel.

Response:

> (In S.F., you can take a dog on a bus, except around rush hour, with a > fare and a muzzle, so it’s a useful thing to have especially during > the rainy season when a walk can be interrupted by a sudden storm.)

Do head collars (such as Halti or Gentle Leader) qualify as ‘muzzles’ on the SF buses?  They do on Community Transit (north Seattle suburbs). Paul

Response:

: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what : kind to use? Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Actually the dog is small 16lbs but a real fast terrier type and totally terrier in attitude! The cheap nylon ones restrict breathing and are easy to remove – I have ordered a nice breathable basket style vinyl one as I do not want to restrict her breathing or her cooling system while we work her. We’ll see. As for more aggression pulling a 16lb dog off of a 100lb giant schnauzer should not IMO take two people to accomplish. My Giant is SO GOOD he stood as told while we removed her from his body and did not kill her as he wished to! Gee can’t I kill her even a little mom – NO! okay Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other > : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of > : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used > : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what > : kind to use? > Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog > will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind > of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on > one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho > land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it > goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Nancy, have you tried using a Halti?  True, a Halti does not stop the dog from opening its mouth wide, but it does permit a great deal of fingertip control.  At least on-lead interactions can be directed. NN> I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other NN> pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of NN> interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used NN> a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what NN> kind to use? NN> So far I am leaning towards the vinyl basket type seen in NE Serum Catalog NN> as it permits breathing as in open mouthed panting and drinking (both NN> critical for a dog in a nerve wracking situation IMO). Any suggestions for NN> one that will stay on a very smart agile little dog? I know the Velcro NN> closure ones that hold the mouth shut would not stay on her for a moment as NN> even my friend’s sharpei can whip those off! NN> Nancy NN>                                                                             .. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Our dogs–may we deserve them!                          

Response:

>: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other >: pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of >: interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used >: a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what >: kind to use? >Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog >will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind >of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on >one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho >land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it >goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Hi.  Nancy is going to use a behavior modification process that specifically requires a muzzle.  You can read about it in Ian Dunbar’s books (not sure which one…)  But the main reason I wanted to write is to say that if *anybody* is going to muzzle for good reasons or bad, at least use a muzzle that will work, since to some extent you’ll be relying on it working… And the nylon muzzles do not work.  Most dogs I’ve read about can get out of them in no time (my own former aggressive dog included) and most dogs can also bite you or another animal with the muzzle on. The bite probably won’t cause as much damage as it would have with no muzzle whatsoever, but still, the whole point is to not let them bite anybody.   take care, Daisy

Response:

JR> I saw a vet column in Citizen Murdoch’s www.the-times.co.uk in which JR> the vet preferred the basket style although I haven’t seen them around JR> San Francisco recently. JR> JR> (In S.F., you can take a dog on a bus, except around rush hour, with a JR> fare and a muzzle, so it’s a useful thing to have especially during JR> the rainy season when a walk can be interrupted by a sudden storm.) How great!  Is there any size limit on the dog?                                                  avrama & shomer JR> JR> JR> ======= JR> No honest business is promoted by spam JR> with the possible exception of Hormel. JR>                                   .. nfx v2.7 [C0000] If I’ve one life to lead, let my lead be on a Dobe.    

Response:

>: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other >: pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of >: interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used >: a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what >: kind to use? >Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog >will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind >of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on >one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho >land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it >goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Hi.  Nancy is going to use a behavior modification process that specifically requires a muzzle.  You can read about it in Ian Dunbar’s books (not sure which one…)  But the main reason I wanted to write is to say that if *anybody* is going to muzzle for good reasons or bad, at least use a muzzle that will work, since to some extent you’ll be relying on it working… And the nylon muzzles do not work.  Most dogs I’ve read about can get out of them in no time (my own former aggressive dog included) and most dogs can also bite you or another animal with the muzzle on. The bite probably won’t cause as much damage as it would have with no muzzle whatsoever, but still, the whole point is to not let them bite anybody.   take care, Daisy

Response:

: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what : kind to use? Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Actually the dog is small 16lbs but a real fast terrier type and totally terrier in attitude! The cheap nylon ones restrict breathing and are easy to remove – I have ordered a nice breathable basket style vinyl one as I do not want to restrict her breathing or her cooling system while we work her. We’ll see. As for more aggression pulling a 16lb dog off of a 100lb giant schnauzer should not IMO take two people to accomplish. My Giant is SO GOOD he stood as told while we removed her from his body and did not kill her as he wished to! Gee can’t I kill her even a little mom – NO! okay Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other > : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of > : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used > : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what > : kind to use? > Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog > will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind > of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on > one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho > land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it > goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Like I said this is for an attempt at training out the old responses and training in some new ones without risk to the sample friendly dog <g> not permanent wear nor for unsupervised interactions but thanks anyway Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      Ray Allen has some Police K9 Training muzzles. 1-800-444-0404 >      One word of caution. Muzzles often can build more aggression, by building > frustration and aggitation level. I’m not saying don’t do it based on this, > just watch for it. >      And the obvious, the muzzled dog can’t protect himself either, so a little > caution. >      A Web-site; www.doggear.com >      K9 GSD >      Semper Fido Pronto! >      Carpe Couchem!

Response:

I saw a vet column in Citizen Murdoch’s www.the-times.co.uk in which the vet preferred the basket style although I haven’t seen them around San Francisco recently. (In S.F., you can take a dog on a bus, except around rush hour, with a fare and a muzzle, so it’s a useful thing to have especially during the rainy season when a walk can be interrupted by a sudden storm.) ======= No honest business is promoted by spam with the possible exception of Hormel.

Response:

     Ray Allen has some Police K9 Training muzzles. 1-800-444-0404      One word of caution. Muzzles often can build more aggression, by building frustration and aggitation level. I’m not saying don’t do it based on this, just watch for it.      And the obvious, the muzzled dog can’t protect himself either, so a little caution.      A Web-site; www.doggear.com      K9 GSD      Semper Fido Pronto!      Carpe Couchem!

Response:

I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what kind to use? So far I am leaning towards the vinyl basket type seen in NE Serum Catalog as it permits breathing as in open mouthed panting and drinking (both critical for a dog in a nerve wracking situation IMO). Any suggestions for one that will stay on a very smart agile little dog? I know the Velcro closure ones that hold the mouth shut would not stay on her for a moment as even my friend’s sharpei can whip those off! Nancy

Response:

>: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other >: pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of >: interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used >: a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what >: kind to use? >Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog >will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind >of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on >one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho >land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it >goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Hi.  Nancy is going to use a behavior modification process that specifically requires a muzzle.  You can read about it in Ian Dunbar’s books (not sure which one…)  But the main reason I wanted to write is to say that if *anybody* is going to muzzle for good reasons or bad, at least use a muzzle that will work, since to some extent you’ll be relying on it working… And the nylon muzzles do not work.  Most dogs I’ve read about can get out of them in no time (my own former aggressive dog included) and most dogs can also bite you or another animal with the muzzle on. The bite probably won’t cause as much damage as it would have with no muzzle whatsoever, but still, the whole point is to not let them bite anybody.   take care, Daisy

Response:

: I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what : kind to use? Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Actually the dog is small 16lbs but a real fast terrier type and totally terrier in attitude! The cheap nylon ones restrict breathing and are easy to remove – I have ordered a nice breathable basket style vinyl one as I do not want to restrict her breathing or her cooling system while we work her. We’ll see. As for more aggression pulling a 16lb dog off of a 100lb giant schnauzer should not IMO take two people to accomplish. My Giant is SO GOOD he stood as told while we removed her from his body and did not kill her as he wished to! Gee can’t I kill her even a little mom – NO! okay Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other > : pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of > : interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used > : a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what > : kind to use? > Be careful when you try this.  There’s a real good chance your dog > will be more aggressive with the muzzle than without.  What kind > of muzzle depends on your budget.  Its easy to spent $200 bucks on > one.  Unless your dog is super big, super strong or a totally psycho > land shark, I’d get one of those $10 nylon cheapies and see how it > goes before spending real $$.  –J.B.

Response:

Like I said this is for an attempt at training out the old responses and training in some new ones without risk to the sample friendly dog <g> not permanent wear nor for unsupervised interactions but thanks anyway Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->      Ray Allen has some Police K9 Training muzzles. 1-800-444-0404 >      One word of caution. Muzzles often can build more aggression, by building > frustration and aggitation level. I’m not saying don’t do it based on this, > just watch for it. >      And the obvious, the muzzled dog can’t protect himself either, so a little > caution. >      A Web-site; www.doggear.com >      K9 GSD >      Semper Fido Pronto! >      Carpe Couchem!

Response:

I saw a vet column in Citizen Murdoch’s www.the-times.co.uk in which the vet preferred the basket style although I haven’t seen them around San Francisco recently. (In S.F., you can take a dog on a bus, except around rush hour, with a fare and a muzzle, so it’s a useful thing to have especially during the rainy season when a walk can be interrupted by a sudden storm.) ======= No honest business is promoted by spam with the possible exception of Hormel.

Response:

     Ray Allen has some Police K9 Training muzzles. 1-800-444-0404      One word of caution. Muzzles often can build more aggression, by building frustration and aggitation level. I’m not saying don’t do it based on this, just watch for it.      And the obvious, the muzzled dog can’t protect himself either, so a little caution.      A Web-site; www.doggear.com      K9 GSD      Semper Fido Pronto!      Carpe Couchem!

Response:

I have an animal aggressive dog that I would like to work with my other pets (as outlined by Ian Dunbar) to attempt changing her mode of interaction with them while wearing a safe muzzle. BUT as I have never used a muzzle on a dog before I was wondering if anyone had opinions on what kind to use? So far I am leaning towards the vinyl basket type seen in NE Serum Catalog as it permits breathing as in open mouthed panting and drinking (both critical for a dog in a nerve wracking situation IMO). Any suggestions for one that will stay on a very smart agile little dog? I know the Velcro closure ones that hold the mouth shut would not stay on her for a moment as even my friend’s sharpei can whip those off! Nancy

Response: