Question:

: Elaine, : If I lived in proximity to ‘a couple of big dogs going ape-shit behind a : fence’ my neighbors would hear me complain.  OTOH, a good : protective-trained dog will not behave in that manor.    You’re mistaken, mister. What would you know about protective dogs? Your dog ran away to save it’s skin in the moment of truth. (weee, the nice man opened the door so I can have a walk now)  My dog is my partner. When she starts barking, you stop what you are doing, and go check out the problem. She never barks senselessly. If she went off like this at night, you get up, put your pants on, and get the gun. You wouldn’t know that, of course, not having ever had a good, dependable dog.  One night with the porch light out, I stood on my deck and watched Maya roust a wetback out of our yard. He jumped the fence, and was quite surprised to find a 90lb Shepherd attached to his butt. I busted up watching him aie-yai-yai-ing across the big back yard, up and over the other fence out of the yard. — Elaine Gallegos

Response:

Terri, No offense taken, I just wanted to clarify.  It actually takes a lot to piss me off and in years of using newsgroups only one person has come even close. — Garrison St.Clair LTC, USA (Ret.) "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak briefs." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Terri, > If you’d like to quote me, do so accurately. >  My apologies, Garrison, I was responding to Elaine. I don’t think you > need worry too much, though, Elaine is as well known for her views > as I am for mine. I doubt anyone really thought I was responding to you, > and that it was a legitimate error. But, for any imagined offense, I > do apologise, twas not my intend to misquote you. > Cheers, > Terri

Response:

> Terri, > If you’d like to quote me, do so accurately.

 My apologies, Garrison, I was responding to Elaine. I don’t think you need worry too much, though, Elaine is as well known for her views as I am for mine. I doubt anyone really thought I was responding to you, and that it was a legitimate error. But, for any imagined offense, I do apologise, twas not my intend to misquote you. Cheers, Terri – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  First, it’s Petaluma. Secondly, if the Klass family had had a dog, it > would > have barked, not attacked. Family pets are *alerters*, only a few are > trained > attacked dogs. > Third, the creep entered the home at night, during the child’s slumber > party. The intent was to harm. And he did. All a family dog would have > done would have done was to alert the family of an intruder. > (At which point, *I* would have shot the SOB, and then given my > dog a nice big juicy steak, medium rare.) > Terri

Response:

> > : >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little > girl > : who > : > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child > : > molester. > : >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in > : > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained > access > : to > : > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind

 First, it’s Petaluma. Secondly, if the Klass family had had a dog, it would have barked, not attacked. Family pets are *alerters*, only a few are trained attacked dogs. Third, the creep entered the home at night, during the child’s slumber party. The intent was to harm. And he did. All a family dog would have done would have done was to alert the family of an intruder. (At which point, *I* would have shot the SOB, and then given my dog a nice big juicy steak, medium rare.) Terri

Response:

Terri, If you’d like to quote me, do so accurately. The quote below is about third hand.  I responded to Elaine Gallegos and the software automatically repeated the quote below which was hers. Please if yiu let your software requote a previous message, let it do so in full. If you’ve read my posts carefully you’ll see that I don’t believe a dog would have, or should have even tried, to help in the below situation. Unless it was a protective trained dog being worked by a trained handler. — Garrison St.Clair LTC, USA (Ret.) "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak briefs." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > : >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little > girl > > : who > > : > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child > > : > molester. > > : >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in > > : > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained > access > > : to > > : > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind >  First, it’s Petaluma. Secondly, if the Klass family had had a dog, it > would > have barked, not attacked. Family pets are *alerters*, only a few are > trained > attacked dogs. > Third, the creep entered the home at night, during the child’s slumber > party. The intent was to harm. And he did. All a family dog would have > done would have done was to alert the family of an intruder. > (At which point, *I* would have shot the SOB, and then given my > dog a nice big juicy steak, medium rare.) > Terri

Response:

Elaine, If I lived in proximity to ‘a couple of big dogs going ape-shit behind a fence’ my neighbors would hear me complain.  OTOH, a good protective-trained dog will not behave in that manor.   — Garrison St.Clair LTC, USA (Ret.) "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak briefs." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  Midnight intruders tend to keep walking if they pass a house with a > couple of big dogs going ape-shit behind a fence. >  It costs the same whether I keep a useless putz of a dog, or an alert > dog that sounds like 90lbs of trouble to a thug. Feel free to do as you > like. Me? I’ll go with the dependable guard. > : Elaine, > : It seems you did not read my post very well.  But if you insist, I’ll > : clarify further. > : In my house the most important life is that of my girlfriend, closely > : followed by the lives of any invited visitors.  The dogs life is next, then > : comes mine.  There is nothing else in the house that money cannot replace. > : Neither my girlfriend nor the dog (Max) has the temperament or training to > : deal with intruders.  My girlfriend understands that her safest course of > : action is to grab a cellphone and remove herself from the premises via an > : exit as far from the intruders as possible.  I’ve stressed that she is not > : even to look for the dog.  Max on the other hand is unlikely to be harmed > : because he will be licking and rolling over for the intruders.  And dogs > : generally are not raped.   BTW, I do not have children though if I did they > : would have the same instructions as my girlfriend – get out and away. > : OTOH, if I were at home – after making sure my girlfriend was safely off > : the premises – the intruders would be contained or dead.  Then again I have > : 20 years of training as a combat soldier;  my girlfriend, the dog , and > : most people reading this newsgroup do not. > : A professional burglar or robber or rapist will not be deterred by a > : non-protective trained dog.  The dog will simply be shot or bludgeoned to > : death, or at least badly injured.  An amateur may do the same to the dog, > : though not as the result of prior planning. > : And while you may not want to hear this, most people reading this newsgroup > : who aren’t trained in combat or security – even with a protective-trained > : dog – would be wise to follow the plan that is in effect at my house. You > : won’t know how many intruders there are, or how well armed they are, until > : you confront them…and that might be too late. > : BTW, if you substitute ‘gun’ for ‘dog’ this is a very common debate both on > : the Internet and in actual gatherings of people.  There are many > : professionals like myself who support the right of any law abiding citizen > : to own a weapon for self-defense…and MOST OF US CONCUR that the typical > : citizen does not have the ability nor will TO USE IT EFFECTIVELY.  Same > : goes for the dogs. > : — > : Garrison St.Clair > : LTC, USA (Ret.) > : "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak > : briefs." > : > : I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than > : > : anything in my house. > : > > : >  So that would be including your life, and the lives of your family? Even > : > a medium sized dog can put up enough of a fuss with an intruder to make > : > him try another house. > : >  The original poster had the exceedingly good luck of not being home at > : > the time of the break in. Some home intruders are far more interested in > : > the residents than the silverware. 70% of rapes occur in the residence of > : > the victim. > : >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little girl > : who > : > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child > : > molester. > : >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in > : > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained access > : to > : > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind it. > : > > : > > : > — > : > > :

> : — > : > Elaine Gallegos > : > > :

> : — > : > > —

— > Elaine Gallegos

— – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Elaine, It seems you did not read my post very well.  But if you insist, I’ll clarify further. In my house the most important life is that of my girlfriend, closely followed by the lives of any invited visitors.  The dogs life is next, then comes mine.  There is nothing else in the house that money cannot replace. Neither my girlfriend nor the dog (Max) has the temperament or training to deal with intruders.  My girlfriend understands that her safest course of action is to grab a cellphone and remove herself from the premises via an exit as far from the intruders as possible.  I’ve stressed that she is not even to look for the dog.  Max on the other hand is unlikely to be harmed because he will be licking and rolling over for the intruders.  And dogs generally are not raped.   BTW, I do not have children though if I did they would have the same instructions as my girlfriend – get out and away. OTOH, if I were at home – after making sure my girlfriend was safely off the premises – the intruders would be contained or dead.  Then again I have 20 years of training as a combat soldier;  my girlfriend, the dog , and most people reading this newsgroup do not. A professional burglar or robber or rapist will not be deterred by a non-protective trained dog.  The dog will simply be shot or bludgeoned to death, or at least badly injured.  An amateur may do the same to the dog, though not as the result of prior planning. And while you may not want to hear this, most people reading this newsgroup who aren’t trained in combat or security – even with a protective-trained dog – would be wise to follow the plan that is in effect at my house.  You won’t know how many intruders there are, or how well armed they are, until you confront them…and that might be too late. BTW, if you substitute ‘gun’ for ‘dog’ this is a very common debate both on the Internet and in actual gatherings of people.  There are many professionals like myself who support the right of any law abiding citizen to own a weapon for self-defense…and MOST OF US CONCUR that the typical citizen does not have the ability nor will TO USE IT EFFECTIVELY.  Same goes for the dogs. — Garrison St.Clair LTC, USA (Ret.) "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak briefs." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than > : anything in my house. >  So that would be including your life, and the lives of your family? Even > a medium sized dog can put up enough of a fuss with an intruder to make > him try another house. >  The original poster had the exceedingly good luck of not being home at > the time of the break in. Some home intruders are far more interested in > the residents than the silverware. 70% of rapes occur in the residence of > the victim. >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little girl who > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child > molester. >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained access to > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind it. > —

— > Elaine Gallegos

— – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

 Midnight intruders tend to keep walking if they pass a house with a couple of big dogs going ape-shit behind a fence.  It costs the same whether I keep a useless putz of a dog, or an alert dog that sounds like 90lbs of trouble to a thug. Feel free to do as you like. Me? I’ll go with the dependable guard.

: Elaine, : It seems you did not read my post very well.  But if you insist, I’ll : clarify further. : In my house the most important life is that of my girlfriend, closely : followed by the lives of any invited visitors.  The dogs life is next, then : comes mine.  There is nothing else in the house that money cannot replace. : Neither my girlfriend nor the dog (Max) has the temperament or training to : deal with intruders.  My girlfriend understands that her safest course of : action is to grab a cellphone and remove herself from the premises via an : exit as far from the intruders as possible.  I’ve stressed that she is not : even to look for the dog.  Max on the other hand is unlikely to be harmed : because he will be licking and rolling over for the intruders.  And dogs : generally are not raped.   BTW, I do not have children though if I did they : would have the same instructions as my girlfriend – get out and away. : OTOH, if I were at home – after making sure my girlfriend was safely off : the premises – the intruders would be contained or dead.  Then again I have : 20 years of training as a combat soldier;  my girlfriend, the dog , and : most people reading this newsgroup do not. : A professional burglar or robber or rapist will not be deterred by a : non-protective trained dog.  The dog will simply be shot or bludgeoned to : death, or at least badly injured.  An amateur may do the same to the dog, : though not as the result of prior planning. : And while you may not want to hear this, most people reading this newsgroup : who aren’t trained in combat or security – even with a protective-trained : dog – would be wise to follow the plan that is in effect at my house.  You : won’t know how many intruders there are, or how well armed they are, until : you confront them…and that might be too late. : BTW, if you substitute ‘gun’ for ‘dog’ this is a very common debate both on : the Internet and in actual gatherings of people.  There are many : professionals like myself who support the right of any law abiding citizen : to own a weapon for self-defense…and MOST OF US CONCUR that the typical : citizen does not have the ability nor will TO USE IT EFFECTIVELY.  Same : goes for the dogs. : — : Garrison St.Clair : LTC, USA (Ret.) : "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak : briefs." : > : I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than : > : anything in my house. : > : >  So that would be including your life, and the lives of your family? Even : > a medium sized dog can put up enough of a fuss with an intruder to make : > him try another house. : >  The original poster had the exceedingly good luck of not being home at : > the time of the break in. Some home intruders are far more interested in : > the residents than the silverware. 70% of rapes occur in the residence of : > the victim. : >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little girl : who : > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child : > molester. : >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in : > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained access : to : > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind it. : > : > : > — : > : — : > Elaine Gallegos : > : — : > — Elaine Gallegos

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than > : anything in my house. >  So that would be including your life, and the lives of your family? Even > a medium sized dog can put up enough of a fuss with an intruder to make > him try another house. >  The original poster had the exceedingly good luck of not being home at > the time of the break in. Some home intruders are far more interested in > the residents than the silverware. 70% of rapes occur in the residence of > the victim. >  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little girl who > was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child > molester. >  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in > Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained access to > the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind it. > — > Elaine Gallegos

To me, it is not a question of whether the lives of my dogs are more important than my own life or the life of my other family members.  I don’t want *any* of us (dogs included) to be hurt or killed.  We did not get either of our dogs (a doberman and a border collie / lab cross) for protection of either ourselves or our property.  We got them as companions and that’s it.  I think that they *do* give us an additional element of security, in that they both bark loudly if people they don’t know are around the house / yard or knock on the door, and the dobe particularly is probably reasonably intimidating in appearance (at least to someone who does not know dobes).  But if they never barked again at anyone, I would still feel exactly the same about them and they would still have the same place in our family, as loved companions. Furthermore, even though I think they add to the security of our home and to my own security when I am out walking, I do not rely on that. They are not trained guard dogs.  If I would not walk into an area at night without the dogs because I felt it was unsafe, I will not go there just because I had the dogs with me.  We still take reasonable precautions like locking the doors when we go out, having a security system installed etc.  This is just not our dogs’ job.  Not that they could not do it if they were trained for it, but if you are going to expect a certain reaction out of a dog to an intruder, it is up to you to teach your dog what you expect of it (not to mention take that into account when you select your dog to start with). As far as people breaking into the house with intent to harm myself or my family goes, I feel that if the mere presence of the dogs is not enough to deter them, then they are obviously quite determined to get to us and are probably equipped to deal with a couple of dogs.  If security is your main concern in getting a dog, I would suggest there are probably other, more efficient ways to increase your security, like getting a monitered security system and taking precautions in your day to day living. Roxanne

Response:

I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than anything in my house. Max who is part Rott part Retriever definitly has more Rott looks and much more Retriever personality would gladly shoe the intruders around.  They wouldn’t even have to bribe him with food.  And hopefully they would leave him alone and behind.  I can’t imagine why anyone would expect, or even want, any but a fully trained protection dog to defend their property.  Any other dog may scare off a rank amateur but will not deter a pro and might only cause the local ‘rock monsters’ to do the dog harm. As a weapons professional you might think I’ve trained my girlfriend to use a handgun or shotgun to defend herself when I’m away.  No, because she doesn’t have the drive nor willingness to do another person harm.  I’ve taught her instead to grab the cellphone and go out a window and head to a neighbors. When I come home I’ll file an insurance claim and check into a hotel…with my girlfriend and dog. — Garrison St.Clair LTC, USA (Ret.) "The acquisition of a flak vest only serves to increase the desire for flak briefs."

Response:

>  To call this particular dog "chicken-shit" is an insult to chickens.

To call you a human being is an insult to humans. >  Evidently, it’s a good enough dog for YOU, Mary. I hope you never have a > better dog than this. You wouldn’t value it.

That’s just the point, isn’t it e-lame? I *value* my dog above my material possesions.

Response:

: I’m with those of you who feel that my dog is far more valuable than : anything in my house.  So that would be including your life, and the lives of your family? Even a medium sized dog can put up enough of a fuss with an intruder to make him try another house.  The original poster had the exceedingly good luck of not being home at the time of the break in. Some home intruders are far more interested in the residents than the silverware. 70% of rapes occur in the residence of the victim.  Does the name Polly Klaas mean anything to you? She’s the little girl who was kidnapped, raped, and finally murdered by the convicted child molester.  Her daddy moved out, and figured that nothing bad ever happens in Pentaluma Calif. It is unlikely that the felon could have gained access to the house if he had to jump a fence with a couple of big dogs behind it. — Elaine Gallegos

Response:

> Greetings! > I would like to address some dog behavior questions to group.  My dog, > ‘Gates’(3.5 yr Female Lab/Hound(?)/Shepherd(?) mix) has some undesirable > behaviors which I would like to correct if possible.

[snip] How old was Gates when you brought her home?         Steve Barnard

Response:

<SNIP SNIP> >and we have a security system for the house > (when we are not around, we turn it on to protect the dogs – to me they > are the most valuable things there). > Roxanne

Me Too!!   I know for a fact that my Lab would let anyone in my house.  Our alarm DID go off and State Troopers came to check it out — a door blew open and triggered the alarm.  And she had two brand new friends!!  If they HAD been burglars, she prolly woulda helped ‘em cart stuff out if they gave her scratchies!!   But if someone would threaten me, forget it — I think she’d go for the juglar in a New York minute.  Mom’s a lot different than the stereo.  IMO, Labs are not very "territory protective".   OTOH, my GSD mix is VERY "territory protective".  He did NOT like the State Troopers in his house and made his opinions very well known.  Fortunately for us, he did not bite the Troopers (who in our rather rural area are trained to deal with dogs).  I venture to guess that your *average* burglar does not have this type of training and he would be hard pressed to get past Jake.  Jake is also people protective.  Again, I think it’s part of the nature of a GSD to be more protective. Michelle, Cassie the Lab (aka LittleOne) and JakeyBuddy the GSDx

Response:

Blah, blah, blah!  Same old crap.   S – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: > >: > If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for >: > a new residence. >: I’m surprised all of your dogs aren’t looking for new residences, tget >: away from you and your idiocy. > To call this particular dog "chicken-shit" is an insult to chickens. >Even a chicken will peck to protect it’s chicks. > It’s normal behavior for any amimal to protect it’s home and family. It’s >revolting that someone would give aid and shelter to this traitor. > Evidently, it’s a good enough dog for YOU, Mary. I hope you never have a >better dog than this. You wouldn’t value it. >– >Elaine Gallegos

Response:

Gollee, Rob, back to Obedience Classes!  For your dog’s sake and everybody else’s peace of mind! I’ll add 2 or 3 cents though…. >I would like to address some dog behavior questions to group.  My dog, >’Gates’(3.5 yr Female Lab/Hound(?)/Shepherd(?) mix) has some undesirable >behaviors which I would like to correct if possible. >First of all, I am aware that I am probably the cause (enabler) of some >of these behaviors, but nonetheless I would like to either eliminate >some of them or make them less pronounced.  She went through training >when she was about 5 months old (Patricia Cook, Companion Dog Training).

I think you forgot some basics.  Go back to sits and downs, get them implanted in Gates mind, so that EVERYTIME that you say "sit" or "down", the dog does. >Car behaviors: Gates travels well when on freeways and otherwise moving >quickly, staying down most of the time and remaining quiet.  But, when >in stop and go traffic, slow curvy roads, or near some place she (thinks >she) is familiar with, she refuses to stay down and makes alot of >high-pitched squeally whining sounds–sometimes shreiking in people’s >ears (ouch!).

Gates recognizes that a pleasant change is about to happen.  My GSDs go nuts when they get close to favorite exercise areas.  I tell them "sit" or "down", and they stop BECAUSE when it first became a problem, I would stop the car and insist that they "down". Dogs, being the smart creatures that they are, learn that in order to get the car closer to where they want to go, they gotta do My thing, first.  Or Crate Gates in a car, if you don’t want to self discipline yourself. Because that’s what it takes.;-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Predator behaviors: We have a cat (Brittanie) which we got within a week >of getting Gates.  She and the cat get along fine.  The cat is very >passive and takes a fair amount of abuse, but none of the play is too >rough.  When she was a kitten (and Gates a puppy), Gates would sometimes >grab her and drag her around the backyard. >But, with other cats, she wants to chase/attack.  We later rescued a >male cat (Norman) as a companion for Brittanie.  The cat apparently was >semi-wild, and though fixed wants to attack Brittanie and apparently is >very territorial with other cats in the neighborhood.  We have to keep >Norman separated from both Gates and Brittanie as he is justifiably >afraid of Gates and is aggressive towards Brittanie.  He’s wonderful >with people–very loving. >Is there any way to curb this aggression towards other cats?   >This aggression is also towards other animals, possums in particular >since they come into our backyard at night.  Gates has killed a baby >possum and has attacked adult(s) several times.  She barks at it >incessantly and I have to lock her in the house for the remainder of the >night.  Any ideas?

Ooops, sorry, no ideas here.  Basic obedience would help a lot with any out of control behavior, though.   >I visit Pt. Isabel about every other week with Gates.  She enjoys it a >great deal, but is generally not interested in playing with other dogs. >She seems intimidated by larger dogs (she’s 60 lbs).  If another dog is >just slightly insistent about wanting to play she growls, barks or >squeals.  She likes smaller dogs better and has shown some interest in >playing with some Beagles and a Brittany.  I would just like to see her >run around more and play.  She seems to bonded to me in that she stays >close to me if she’s afraid of other dogs.  She’ll go up and sniff any >dog, but just shows no further interest. >Another example:  If I throw a ball she’ll chase it, but if another dog >also chases it, she’ll back off and give up.

Every other week is not enough doggie socialization for a dog that is dog-shy.  If Gates gives up her ball to another, it seems to me that she is telling that dog, o.k., you’re boss.  She needs a lot of socialization before she will feel comfortable with them.  Right now, you and your wife are her "pack", so like a kid, she would rather hang with you and watch the more boisterous kids play.   >Gates gets VERY excited when certain people come over to visit.  She >jumps up on them and barks alot and is in their face.  (This is an >example of one behavior which I’m probably guilty of permitting).  Two >of these people are not ‘dog people.’  They’re not AFRAID of dogs, but >you can tell they don’t know how to deal with them so well.

Even I, who love every dog in the world, get annoyed when I visit and dogs are jumping up in my face.  Use "Off", then "Down".  Keep her on a lead when the doorbell rings, and put her in a sit for a polite hello.  If she can’t do that, have her in a down (I put my foot on the lead so that I won’t forget what I am doing and the excited dog jumps back up) until she does settle down.  Then praise her.  Praise her for all good things, ignore or correct all unwanted behavior. >She also jumps up when I get her leash.  She won’t keep still and I have >to almost physically restrain her to get her leash on.  She loves walks >and knows the word(s). As above >She barks at the mailman every day.  She would not attack him but she’s >alarm barking I guess (?).  I am GLAD she barks at strangers coming to >the door–it’s very helpful when a stranger comes to the door and wants >money or something.  Though we were recently burglarized and she didn’t >scare the perpetrators.  They let her out front and she sat in the >middle of the street and barked.  I guess that’s a good thing–had she >been more aggressive, she might’ve been hurt.

This is fun.  My Moxie girl absolutely love scaring the mailman away.(she thought), so I taught her to bring me some of the mail.  Now she waits happily by the mail slot for the mail to drop, she brings it, gets her pet and her treat, and I don’t have to shout at her to "enough" (My words for barking are: Thank you, That’s enough.  ENOUGH!  Good Girls >She doesn’t seem to desire petting.  She’ll hang around to have her butt >scratched but she’s ambivalent about the rest.  She’s antsy alot (she >has flea allergy which is mostly under control), at least her coat and >skin have looked great for a year or so.  She had more bald spots when >she was younger. (Thank you Advantage).

Massage her.  Put her in a down and massage her whole body.  Brush her. Make sure you brush under her belly and under her chin.  Pretty soon the feeling of being touched in a loving gentle way will be something she looks forward to. They also absolutely love gentle scratching on their forehead and above their mouths.  If your Gates had real skin problems, she probably associates touching with feelings of irritation and itching. Need to get her to forget that. >If I had to use a single word to describe her, I’d say ‘manic.’  I had a >friend house/dog sit for us.  He told me that Gates was much more calm >when he was there alone with her than she is when I and/or my wife are >present.

Manic is a good word for an untrained, overexitable dog.  Gates needs, IMHO, exercise, training (consistent) and loving touching.  You’ll see a big difference and enjoy her lots more.  Good luck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->That’s about it for now.  I’d appreciate any feedback, thoughts, ideas, >etc.  Thank you.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > > : > If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for > : > a new residence. > : I’m surprised all of your dogs aren’t looking for new residences, tget > : away from you and your idiocy. >  To call this particular dog "chicken-shit" is an insult to chickens. > Even a chicken will peck to protect it’s chicks. >  It’s normal behavior for any amimal to protect it’s home and family. It’s > revolting that someone would give aid and shelter to this traitor. >  Evidently, it’s a good enough dog for YOU, Mary. I hope you never have a > better dog than this. You wouldn’t value it. > — > Elaine Gallegos

What on earth have chickens got to do with this?   Many breeds of dogs have not been developed to act as property or personal guard dogs, they were developed for different purposes entirely and may have been bred over many generations *away* from having particularly protective dispositions.  Furthermore, even with dogs that would by nature be protective, I would expect that many people deliberately try to raise the dog to believe that people are good and to be trusted, that the dog is to permit strangers (such as vets, strangers met in the park, kids etc.) to touch and handle it, and generally that reacting aggressively to people is not acceptable behaviour.  I also believe, even with a dog that has a protective nature, there is potentially a difference in the way at least some dogs would react to someone breaking into the house when no one is at home and taking the stereo, and how the dog might react if they were present when someone was actually assaulting a member of their family.  In the second case I can see a couple of factors that may result in a different reaction from the dog – first of all the dog has an attachment to the members of its family, but probably really doesn’t care how much it is going to cost you to replace that stereo, and also in the second situation the owner’s reaction to the threat may influence the dog’s reaction.  But in either case, I don’t think you can really count on exactly what your dog’s reaction might be unless you have trained it to react in the manner you want it to react in those types of situations.   I personally would rather have a dog that erred on the side of being too friendly to strangers than one that goes too far the other way, and that is how I have tried to raise and train my dogs.  They might (especially the doberman) protect me if I was threatened or they might not, I don’t know.  I tend to believe as the doberman would protect me from some of his behaviour but I sure don’t count on it.  I am not sure if he would protect the *house* if I was gone (I tend to believe he probably would not, at least not right now (he is only a year old, still a baby) – as fond as he is of our couch, I really don’t think that he would care if some one came in and took it).  But either way, I don’t know for certain.  I have never had anyone try to attack me to find out what he would do; and he has never faced getting shot at, hit over the head or kicked in the ribs like a serious attacker might do to defend himself or deter the dog, to see if he would keep going in the face of that.  I hope I never have to find out what he would do, and for that reason, I still use my common sense when out walking, the same as I would do if I did not have a dog with me, and we have a security system for the house (when we are not around, we turn it on to protect the dogs – to me they are the most valuable things there). Roxanne

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> Car behaviors: Gates travels well when on freeways and otherwise moving > quickly, staying down most of the time and remaining quiet.  But, when > in stop and go traffic, slow curvy roads, or near some place she (thinks > she) is familiar with, she refuses to stay down and makes alot of > high-pitched squeally whining sounds–sometimes shreiking in people’s > ears (ouch!).

OK, she’s hyped about stuff….(prey drive). > Predator behaviors: We have a cat (Brittanie) which we got within a week > of getting Gates.  She and the cat get along fine.  The cat is very > passive and takes a fair amount of abuse, but none of the play is too > rough.  When she was a kitten (and Gates a puppy), Gates would sometimes > grab her and drag her around the backyard. > But, with other cats, she wants to chase/attack.  We later rescued a > male cat (Norman) as a companion for Brittanie.  The cat apparently was > semi-wild, and though fixed wants to attack Brittanie and apparently is > very territorial with other cats in the neighborhood.  We have to keep > Norman separated from both Gates and Brittanie as he is justifiably > afraid of Gates and is aggressive towards Brittanie.  He’s wonderful > with people–very loving.

Uh huh…chases cats….(prey drive) > This aggression is also towards other animals, possums in particular > since they come into our backyard at night.  Gates has killed a baby > possum and has attacked adult(s) several times.  She barks at it > incessantly and I have to lock her in the house for the remainder of the > night.  

Gets possums too….(prey drive) > I visit Pt. Isabel about every other week with Gates.  She enjoys it a > great deal, but is generally not interested in playing with other dogs. > She seems intimidated by larger dogs (she’s 60 lbs).  If another dog is > just slightly insistent about wanting to play she growls, barks or > squeals.  She likes smaller dogs better and has shown some interest in > playing with some Beagles and a Brittany.  I would just like to see her > run around more and play.  She seems to bonded to me in that she stays > close to me if she’s afraid of other dogs.  She’ll go up and sniff any > dog, but just shows no further interest.

Not particularly interested in playing with other dogs…(prey drive stronger than pack drive) > Another example:  If I throw a ball she’ll chase it, but if another dog > also chases it, she’ll back off and give up.

Gives up toy to another dog……(chasing the ball would mean switching into defense drive, in her eyes, if there’s another dog after it.) > She barks at the mailman every day.  She would not attack him but she’s > alarm barking I guess (?).  I am GLAD she barks at strangers coming to > the door–it’s very helpful when a stranger comes to the door and wants > money or something.  Though we were recently burglarized and she didn’t > scare the perpetrators.  They let her out front and she sat in the > middle of the street and barked.  I guess that’s a good thing–had she > been more aggressive, she might’ve been hurt.

Sounds like she did what she could.  She sounds a lot higher in prey drive than protection drive. > She doesn’t seem to desire petting.  She’ll hang around to have her butt > scratched but she’s ambivalent about the rest.  She’s antsy alot (she > has flea allergy which is mostly under control), at least her coat and > skin have looked great for a year or so.  She had more bald spots when > she was younger. (Thank you Advantage). > If I had to use a single word to describe her, I’d say ‘manic.’  I had a > friend house/dog sit for us.  He told me that Gates was much more calm > when he was there alone with her than she is when I and/or my wife are > present.

Hi Rob, I think you’re simply describing a dog with a very high prey drive, and all this means is that the key to her happiness is to offer her some prey, in the the form of play.  If  you’ve got the time, find an activity suited to her temperment and give her a job.  She’ll always be this way, but you can make life a little more relaxed for yourself if she can work for a while to burn off some of that energy.  The behaviors you described aren’t easily eliminated, but can be directed toward something positive, something that allows her to live in her prey drive for a while.  If she has this outlet, the off work times will be less hectic. -Colin — Montoya-Lewis Woodworks Albuquerque, New Mexico http:/www.rt66.com/~colinml/index.htm

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>  Oh, gosh!  Honest???  Your dog ran away when your home was invaded and > woofed ineffectually from the > middle of the street? If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for > a new residence. >  "SHE" might have gotten hurt? If the intruders had any worse impluses, > your whole family could have been savaged. ( yeah, our daughter > was kidnapped, raped for days, and was finally murdered….but the DOG is > fine). > —

Sigh, I guess it was just a matter of time. And you were doing so well! Elaine, did it ever occur to you that this break in occured when the family was GONE? As in, the middle of the day???? What chance does a non- attack trained dog have against this but a bark? Id be thankful my dog survived!!! Personally, Id must rather have my dog safe and sacrifice the personal posessions. NO dog who is not trained to attack is going to stand a chance against someone determined to rob you during the day! Unless, of course, you think the loss of the dog is worth the measly cost of personal possesions! IMO, personal items are*much *less important that people or living, breathing animals.

You are on your own, once again, on this one.

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> If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for > a new residence.

I’m surprised all of your dogs aren’t looking for new residences, tget away from you and your idiocy.

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: > : > If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for : > a new residence. : I’m surprised all of your dogs aren’t looking for new residences, tget : away from you and your idiocy.  To call this particular dog "chicken-shit" is an insult to chickens. Even a chicken will peck to protect it’s chicks.  It’s normal behavior for any amimal to protect it’s home and family. It’s revolting that someone would give aid and shelter to this traitor.  Evidently, it’s a good enough dog for YOU, Mary. I hope you never have a better dog than this. You wouldn’t value it. — Elaine Gallegos

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: : Pat is an excellent obedience instructor and has a great reputation in : the Bay Area. She’s recently gone to work for Guide Dogs as a behavior : consultant for puppy raisers – but I understand someone very competent : has taken over Companion Dogs. Sadly true – Pat Cook moved to Oregon last month (I also trained with her and she imported my GSD’s grandfather).  I observed a class taught by the woman who has taken over Companion Dog Training, and she’s pretty good. They have also added some new training locations and times, but it is worth mentioning that there are a number of very qualified trainers in the Oakland area that Rob could go to.  The Oakland Dog Training Club comes to mind. Lynn K. —

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 Rob- first of all, congratulations on your insight in this matter. I agree with you that your responses are instrumental in the results you get with your dog. : in stop and go traffic, slow curvy roads, or near some place she (thinks : she) is familiar with, she refuses to stay down and makes alot of : high-pitched squeally whining sounds–sometimes shreiking in people’s : ears (ouch!).  Ok, you’d deal with this exactly as you would a kid who misbehaves in the car. You have to train them Both to listen to you. They quickly become "deaf" to authority if there is no followthrough. Say, NO, and SIT. Say it just one time. If she doesn’t listen, stop the car immediately in the very first safe place. No one goes anywhere until your dog is seated and quiet.  I’ll let someone else field predator behaviors, as it can be rather envolved, and deserves some separate space. : Gates gets VERY excited when certain people come over to visit.  She : jumps up on them and barks alot and is in their face.  (This is an : example of one behavior which I’m probably guilty of permitting).  Two : of these people are not ‘dog people.’  They’re not AFRAID of dogs, but : you can tell they don’t know how to deal with them so well.  Don’t let her DO that. You can work with this problem behaviorally. Enlist someone to come over, specifically for the purpose of working with Gates. Keep your dog on leash, and show her how you want her to behave. Again, tell her ONCE. All other activity stops until you get your desired response. : She also jumps up when I get her leash.  She won’t keep still and I have : to almost physically restrain her to get her leash on.  She loves walks : and knows the word(s). *smirk*  don’t they all do this? : She barks at the mailman every day.  She would not attack him but she’s : alarm barking I guess (?).  I am GLAD she barks at strangers coming to : the door–it’s very helpful when a stranger comes to the door and wants : money or something.  Though we were recently burglarized and she didn’t : scare the perpetrators.  They let her out front and she sat in the : middle of the street and barked.  Oh, gosh!  Honest???  Your dog ran away when your home was invaded and woofed ineffectually from the middle of the street? If she were my dog, old "Gates" would be looking for a new residence.  "SHE" might have gotten hurt? If the intruders had any worse impluses, your whole family could have been savaged. ( yeah, our daughter was kidnapped, raped for days, and was finally murdered….but the DOG is fine). — Elaine Gallegos

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: First of all, I am aware that I am probably the cause (enabler) of some : of these behaviors, but nonetheless I would like to either eliminate : some of them or make them less pronounced.  She went through training : when she was about 5 months old (Patricia Cook, Companion Dog Training). Pat is an excellent obedience instructor and has a great reputation in the Bay Area. She’s recently gone to work for Guide Dogs as a behavior consultant for puppy raisers – but I understand someone very competent has taken over Companion Dogs. The problem is with obedience is that it’s not something you can just take one class in and expect your dog to be, forevermore, obedience trained. You have to work on it throughout the dog’s life. : Car behaviors: Gates travels well when on freeways and otherwise moving : quickly, staying down most of the time and remaining quiet.  But, when : in stop and go traffic, slow curvy roads, or near some place she (thinks : she) is familiar with, she refuses to stay down and makes alot of : high-pitched squeally whining sounds–sometimes shreiking in people’s : ears (ouch!). She needs to learn that "refusing to stay down" isn’t an option. This is a matter of working on her obedience training in this specific situation. Or you can crate her (which I prefer anyway, especially since my mother’s dog was thrown out of her car recently in a car accident). : Predator behaviors: We have a cat (Brittanie) which we got within a week : of getting Gates.  She and the cat get along fine.  The cat is very : passive and takes a fair amount of abuse, but none of the play is too : rough.  When she was a kitten (and Gates a puppy), Gates would sometimes : grab her and drag her around the backyard. : But, with other cats, she wants to chase/attack.  We later rescued a : male cat (Norman) as a companion for Brittanie.  The cat apparently was : semi-wild, and though fixed wants to attack Brittanie and apparently is : very territorial with other cats in the neighborhood.  We have to keep : Norman separated from both Gates and Brittanie as he is justifiably : afraid of Gates and is aggressive towards Brittanie.  He’s wonderful : with people–very loving. : Is there any way to curb this aggression towards other cats?   The aggression (prey drive) toward cats is pretty normal. Yes, you can work with it, but you really need some in-person help for this one. (I’ve done some private sessions myself with Pat Cook – you might consider calling Companion Dogs to set something up with the person who’s taken over for her.) : This aggression is also towards other animals, possums in particular : since they come into our backyard at night.  Gates has killed a baby : possum and has attacked adult(s) several times.  She barks at it : incessantly and I have to lock her in the house for the remainder of the : night.  Any ideas? Just keep her in the house all night. That works really well! : I visit Pt. Isabel about every other week with Gates.  She enjoys it a : great deal, but is generally not interested in playing with other dogs. : She seems intimidated by larger dogs (she’s 60 lbs).  If another dog is : just slightly insistent about wanting to play she growls, barks or : squeals.  She likes smaller dogs better and has shown some interest in : playing with some Beagles and a Brittany.  I would just like to see her : run around more and play.  She seems to bonded to me in that she stays : close to me if she’s afraid of other dogs.  She’ll go up and sniff any : dog, but just shows no further interest. There are some dogs that are just this way. You can’t really change her basic nature – she’s just a people dog. : Gates gets VERY excited when certain people come over to visit. : She also jumps up when I get her leash. : She barks at the mailman every day. Again, these are all just basic obedience problems. Teaching her to sit when people come over and when you’re putting the leash on would solve the problem. If she doesn’t sit when you tell her to, she needs to learn there are consequences – she gets ignored, or (when you’re putting the leash on her to take her out) you just walk away and sit down and ignore her (ie, she doesn’t get to go out). : She doesn’t seem to desire petting.  She’ll hang around to have her butt : scratched but she’s ambivalent about the rest.  She’s antsy alot (she : has flea allergy which is mostly under control), at least her coat and : skin have looked great for a year or so.  She had more bald spots when : she was younger. (Thank you Advantage). Some dogs just don’t like a lot of physical contact (except for that butt scratching – I haven’t met a dog yet that doesn’t go into ecstasy over that!). Could be her breed (you don’t mention it), could just be her own individual nature. Again, you can’t change her personality. If I were you, I’d call the dog training school and set up a private session for Gates. It’s not exactly cheap, but a couple of one-on- one sessions can make a huge difference in your relationship with your dog. Second, get a copy of "People, Pooches, and Problems," by Job Michael Evans. Read the whole book, of course, but especially check out the chapter on the "Radical Regimen for Recalcitrant Rovers," and see if following that program for a month doesn’t make a difference. The book also has information on some of the problems you’ve described. Good luck. April with Levi and Caper, the Border Collie Hurricanes

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Greetings! I would like to address some dog behavior questions to group.  My dog, ‘Gates’(3.5 yr Female Lab/Hound(?)/Shepherd(?) mix) has some undesirable behaviors which I would like to correct if possible. First of all, I am aware that I am probably the cause (enabler) of some of these behaviors, but nonetheless I would like to either eliminate some of them or make them less pronounced.  She went through training when she was about 5 months old (Patricia Cook, Companion Dog Training). Car behaviors: Gates travels well when on freeways and otherwise moving quickly, staying down most of the time and remaining quiet.  But, when in stop and go traffic, slow curvy roads, or near some place she (thinks she) is familiar with, she refuses to stay down and makes alot of high-pitched squeally whining sounds–sometimes shreiking in people’s ears (ouch!). Predator behaviors: We have a cat (Brittanie) which we got within a week of getting Gates.  She and the cat get along fine.  The cat is very passive and takes a fair amount of abuse, but none of the play is too rough.  When she was a kitten (and Gates a puppy), Gates would sometimes grab her and drag her around the backyard. But, with other cats, she wants to chase/attack.  We later rescued a male cat (Norman) as a companion for Brittanie.  The cat apparently was semi-wild, and though fixed wants to attack Brittanie and apparently is very territorial with other cats in the neighborhood.  We have to keep Norman separated from both Gates and Brittanie as he is justifiably afraid of Gates and is aggressive towards Brittanie.  He’s wonderful with people–very loving. Is there any way to curb this aggression towards other cats?   This aggression is also towards other animals, possums in particular since they come into our backyard at night.  Gates has killed a baby possum and has attacked adult(s) several times.  She barks at it incessantly and I have to lock her in the house for the remainder of the night.  Any ideas? I visit Pt. Isabel about every other week with Gates.  She enjoys it a great deal, but is generally not interested in playing with other dogs. She seems intimidated by larger dogs (she’s 60 lbs).  If another dog is just slightly insistent about wanting to play she growls, barks or squeals.  She likes smaller dogs better and has shown some interest in playing with some Beagles and a Brittany.  I would just like to see her run around more and play.  She seems to bonded to me in that she stays close to me if she’s afraid of other dogs.  She’ll go up and sniff any dog, but just shows no further interest. Another example:  If I throw a ball she’ll chase it, but if another dog also chases it, she’ll back off and give up. Gates gets VERY excited when certain people come over to visit.  She jumps up on them and barks alot and is in their face.  (This is an example of one behavior which I’m probably guilty of permitting).  Two of these people are not ‘dog people.’  They’re not AFRAID of dogs, but you can tell they don’t know how to deal with them so well. She also jumps up when I get her leash.  She won’t keep still and I have to almost physically restrain her to get her leash on.  She loves walks and knows the word(s). She barks at the mailman every day.  She would not attack him but she’s alarm barking I guess (?).  I am GLAD she barks at strangers coming to the door–it’s very helpful when a stranger comes to the door and wants money or something.  Though we were recently burglarized and she didn’t scare the perpetrators.  They let her out front and she sat in the middle of the street and barked.  I guess that’s a good thing–had she been more aggressive, she might’ve been hurt. She doesn’t seem to desire petting.  She’ll hang around to have her butt scratched but she’s ambivalent about the rest.  She’s antsy alot (she has flea allergy which is mostly under control), at least her coat and skin have looked great for a year or so.  She had more bald spots when she was younger. (Thank you Advantage). If I had to use a single word to describe her, I’d say ‘manic.’  I had a friend house/dog sit for us.  He told me that Gates was much more calm when he was there alone with her than she is when I and/or my wife are present.   That’s about it for now.  I’d appreciate any feedback, thoughts, ideas, etc.  Thank you. Rob Miller Oakland CA

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