Question:

No one is arguing that dogs are instinctively protective. Your descriptions, however, indicate that she is not being aggressive from protection instincts, but from fear. This is a very different type of aggression – protectiveness can be controlled, but it is much more difficult to control fear. A dog that barks when a visitor comes to the house, but settles down when the owner indicates that the visitor is allowed and either accepts or ignores the visitor is one thing; a dog that continues agressive behavior to visitors is dangerous. If you are aware that your dog may become aggressive in certain situations (the person play-hitting you, for example) then you need to keep the dog out of that situation before it escalates. What if you have the dog in your shop and some children come in and hit each other? How do you know that this dog won’t be triggered by that action and attack? No one is saying you need to euthanize your dog; they are trying to make you aware of the seriousness of the situation before something tragic occurs. Christy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a > few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her > and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying > is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we > would not have very many dogs in the world. > Keri

Response:

I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we would not have very many dogs in the world. Keri

Response:

Very well written, MaryBeth.  Your sincerity in caring about  this dog really shows. Carol

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has >come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, >but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit >about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than >wrong, and get help. >    Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. >In all sincerity for your dog, >MaryBeth

Response:

> She is in training.

    *Training* is a totally different subject. Has nothing to do with aggressive/submissive behavior problems. Well, not in the way you’ve explained her training. Going to regular training classes is not the same thing as seeing a behaviorist.     Someone needs to see your dog do this ‘near biting’, and see why she does it, and what you can do to help. There’s already been many ppl like you that come here, and think it’s *really* not that big of a deal, and eventually wind up with a dead dog. I REALLY don’t want that to happen to you. And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I > knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked > something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but > she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same > thing.

    What exactly *stopped* her from biting? Did you stop her, or did she stop herself?     My friends, and even children can come to my home and do many many things not only to me, but to my dogs, and NADA, ZIPPO response, other than wanting to join in the fun. Then again, I have a golden, a black lab, and a lab mix.     You have an Akita, a wonderful animal, and one that you SAY you love as a child. I am the same way about mine. I am not jumping on you, I’m trying to get you to open your eyes here. Your Akita is a breed known for having a totally different temperament than mine. Please don’t lose your dog, out of some sort of false sense of pride, in a newsgroup.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said > earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when > something happens to a child.

    You seem to be thinking we’re against your dog here. We aren’t. We all LOVE our dogs, and try to help ANYONE save their dogs. Your dog is a bite waiting to happen.     **Don’t be defensive, when it’s your dog’s life at stake here, not your ego, PLEASE.**     Think long and hard about that last sentence I just wrote. Go to bed thinking about it. Wake up thinking about it, then get back to us. Don’t just read this and fly off the handle and attack me. I KNOW you most likely will want to, by the time you finish reading this. But THINK, then post tomorrow with your feelings. But while thinking, keep that dog at the front of it all.     We’re talking to you about a dog that has threatened to BITE three ppl. This isn’t *cute* or even submissive, it’s AGGRESSIVE, be it fear based or not, and you’re in deep denial if you don’t believe she’s going to bite soon, and doesn’t need a pro behaviorist.     I could care less if your feelings are hurt, it’s not my *intention*, at all, sincerely it isn’t but I DO care about your dog’s life. It’s time for *you* to get serious. Well we need to look at the whole situation and > see why a dog did what it did.

    *YOU* may look at it that way, but trust me, the police aren’t going to see a playful pup. Neither will the parents of a wandering child, or anyone that happens to set her off. You still don’t know exactly why she did it, you are guessing at it being protection. Most likely it is.     But I know enough from your posts, you don’t know how to handle it. And none of us that are serious about our dogs, would EVER think that this behavior isn’t something to be taken very seriously.     Now take what you said right above this, about looking at the whole situation, and go to a behaviorist with that *very* sentence. Get help. No one here can possilby help you, no matter what they promise. And it won’t be you or your b/f that pays in the end, it will be your beloved pet. (((  By the way here in my hometown I would not have > to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.

    OH, HOW LUCKY THEN !!!!!     THREE WHOLE CHANCES !!!!     Jeeeze Louise, woman !!!!     What are you *thinking*????     And, yes I am being extremely sarcastic and snippy, but *only* to get your attention.     So you don’t have to put her down until she bites THREE times? THINK AGAIN.     If she rips the face off of a child, or anyone, you WILL have to, trust me. Those ppl will make sure of it. Law or no law. It can be done.     I’ll tell you one thing, if it bit my child’s face, seriously damaged MY child, and you thought you’d have two more chances, you’d be sadly mistaken. I’d take that dog and shoot it myself. You can be pretty sure more ppl would feel the same way.     I would make sure that dog was put down, and not only sue you for the damages, physical, mental and emotional, but if I found out you KNEW that she had any proclivity to bite, and didn’t do anything???? Wake up and smell the anal glands here, girlfriend !!!! As far as my bf goes > well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure > he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he > would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every > opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know > she did not like what he was doing and never bit him.

    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than wrong, and get help.     Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. In all sincerity for your dog, MaryBeth

Response:

> But like I said denial no I dont >think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit >anyone.

<sigh>  She’s never bitten anyone, but she has the POTENTIAL. Fear aggression is a very serious and dangerous thing.

Response:

She goes to training classes but since the shop is mine after and before training classes she is free of the shop and she usually just lays down and does not bother a soul.  So there are many different people in and out of the shop everyday.  I think it is a dogs nature to be protective of their owner.   Keri

Response:

>Like I said >earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when >something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation >and >see why a dog did what it did.  

This is true, but you’re ignoring that the law doesn’t rationalize with angry parents. It usually sides with them, and the losers are you and your dog. Nevermind the potential lawsuits. Why are you so hell bent against seeing a behaviourist? You did come here to get advice, and that’s the advice you’ve been given.  No one’s arguing with you about your dog, they’re pleading with you to help it before something unimaginable happens. I agree with them. See a behaviourist.

Response:

Kate, Thanks I may try that. I cant take her to parks around here because all the parks do not allow dogs. Keri

Response:

She is in training.  And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same thing.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation and see why a dog did what it did.  By the way here in my hometown I would not have to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.  As far as my bf goes well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know she did not like what he was doing and never bit him. Keri

Response:

>and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I >guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids.

I have both kids and dogs.  And I also live in a neighborhood where very young children roam around.  Now, of course it’s the parents responsiblity to keep an eye on their kids, but unfortunetly, not all do.  Does this mean my dog has a right to bite a 3 or 4 year old that may wander into my yard?  No!  It’s not the childs fault he has irrepsonsible parents, and it is my fault for whatever my dog does. I personally would rip the head off of a dog with my teeth if it bit my child for no reason.   >You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I >like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.  

You may not like people or children, but that excuse will not hold up in court when you are being sued by someone. You have an Akita, which are not for the inexperienced dog owner. Unfortunately, some Akita’s have horrid temperments.  I had one in many of my classes, from puppy class on.  As she got older, she got more aggressive towards other dogs (which is normal for the breed) but also people.  At 10 months of age she tried to go through the backyard fence to get to the 6 year old child playing in his yard.  She was euthanized.  Her owner was also informed by a knowledeable breeder that that type of temperement was not the norm, and was dangerous. See a behaviorist, maybe she is workable. But if she isn’t, think very carefully about the decisions you make.  Good luck Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

Response:

Take it gradually.  She seems to be very nervous and jealous.  Make sure that you do not exclude her when you are with your boyfriend.  Give her a place to hide (under a table – corner of a room) if she needs to.  My daughters dog had the same problem and through lots of love he has gained confidence.  Try to sit with your boyfriend when he pats her – so that she knows you approve.  I am sure things will work out eventually.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

Response:

Sugarwhitemike1, Denial?  I dont quite understand what you are saying.  She has never bit anyone and the only times she has tried and made her presents known is when there was someone in the house that was aggressive towards me.  She thought she was protecting me.  Yes I know Akitas are known for their "reputation" but I think most dogs protect their owner.  As far as her hurting a child I never said I wanted that to happen and that is the reason she is supervised.  She has not really given me a reason to think she would hurt someone unless provoked.  I have many young  brothers and sisters who come over and she never messes with them.  And as far as the 6 yr old scaling my fence maybe I put it the wrong way but I dont feel it is right that you would put a dog to sleep when it is in its own yard minding its own business and some parent is not keeping an eye on their kid.  I think a lot of the problems are that people look at dogs as "just" dogs.  For many people they are much more than that.  And Im sure all of you feel that they are much more than dogs as well or why else would you always be doing research and talking about them.  But like I said denial no I dont think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit anyone. Keri

Response:

That’s not socialization.  Socialization means direct interaction with strangers of all kinds–different races, ages, sexes, and behaviors. Training class is *NOT* socialization–it is training.  Socialization is an ongoing process that you do all the time with the dog. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit. > Keri

Response:

Sounds like some one is in denial. The classic case of my child can do no wrong.

Response:

> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.

    What stopped her from biting?     THAT is an important question.     If a dog is aggressive enough to *try* to bite, it’s only a matter of time until it does. The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit.

    This is great. But the fact remains that you have a dog that is GOING to bite one of these days. No one here on the group, or the net can tell you how to change that, without seeing the dog in person.     If you have all of these facilities available, have you talked to the trainer there about this? If so, what did they say? If they either don’t think it’s that much of a problem, or don’t know how to help, you need to get another person to do it.     Trust me Keri, I have three dogs, and I love them all, but my golden, Rudy, is my *soulmate*, I LOVE this dog, and I have no children, so I know how you feel about it. But all that doesn’t make a hill of beans, when it comes to the dog eventually making contact, and biting. In fact it would make *me* more prone to find pro help ASAP. If the dog goes after your b/f, and KNOWS him, what about a child that comes onto your property? MaryBeth

Response:

I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

    Ummmm, unfortunately, YES you will.     Even if the child comes into your yard. And many places will go harder on you *especially* if you have a sign on your fence. Shows knowledge of dog’s aggressive behavior. So if anyone, child/robber/neighbor is harmed by your dog, you WILL put her down. You won’t have a choice. And above all of that, you can be sued for mucho $$.     I’d listen to Emily, and get this dog some pro training. "In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake"     Exactly what did she do to make you think she was protecting you? What was your b/f doing, exactly? And what happened?     Your dog has a behavior problem that you can not find help for on a newsgroup, nor on the web. You need to see someone in person, or you’re going to be very very sorry that you didn’t, one day. You’ve already talked to a breeder about it, and they warned you.     What happens if some neighbor’s child gets into your yard, and she rips her face off?     And you have to put her down?     And you get sued for the damages?     How in the world will you feel, if you already know NOW that she has a problem and you don’t do something?     How will you feel about the child?     And how will you feel about your beloved dog being put down? MaryBeth

Response:

>I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she >has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we >have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same >location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is >also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has >been socialized quite a bit. >Keri

Nope, sorry, this is just a normal or reduced amount of socialisation….. taking your dog to a busy walkway/park/mall with *many* different strangers per hour is socialisation this type of socialisation you are talking about is *territory mine* socialisation….. the dog needs to be in *unknown* or *neutral* territory for *lots* of socialisation looking forward to other opinions kate

Response:

I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has been socialized quite a bit. Keri

Response:

My point was simply that if you are unwilling to work with this dog, then it is very irresponsible to keep it.  Obviously you’re willing to work with her, or you wouldn’t be here, but the idea of euthanization should never be a surprise when you have an aggressive dog on your hand.  Not everyone is as responsible as you seem to be, and all it takes is one stupid parent to get your dog killed. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so. I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around. > Keri

Response:

> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

If your dog bites someone’s child you *will* put the dog down because most likely animal control and the courts and everything will be involved and you will have no choice.   In this area I think dogs get two or three bites before they are killed.   It doesn’t make the least difference if it is the person’s fault and not the dog’s fault.   I think that’s why they give the dog more than one chance, though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.

 How do you propose to simutaneously socialize her and keep her from the possibility of biting someone?   Never, never let her around children?   Never let her around men?  That’s not very socialized. > I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around.

I know the idea must be beyond horrible for you.   You *love* this dog.   She is a wonderful dog.   I don’t doubt it in the least.   But listen to the people who have suggested taking her to a dog behaviorist. They know a lot about dogs and about what you are going through and what will happen if your dog becomes a fear biter.   It doesn’t mean that your dog is a bad dog, or viscious or anything like that.  But if she bites anyone (or three anyones) it won’t matter *why* she bit them.    Don’t doubt at all that the people who have mentioned the possible eventuality of euthanizing her understand just how painful that would be.   No one wants that to happen.   People will try to help just as much as they can so it doesn’t happen. –Julie

Response:

Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to euth her.  She is basically my child. Keri

Response:

> Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only > outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced > back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to > euth her.  She is basically my child.

I never mentioned anything about her getting out.  She may very well be your "child" but that does not mean it’s acceptable to have this dog in your home if she is this aggressive.  (What happens when she gets your boyfriend good? Or when you have guests over?  Or when a 6 year old scales your fence?)  As I said, you need to work with a behaviorist experienced with Akitas, because they are very difficult dogs to work with.  This is a very severe situation and it needs to be repaired as quickly as possible. ~Emily

Response:

I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.  I think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing she does not just go after people walking around. Keri

Response:

Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. Thanks, Keri

Response:

Akitas are generally difficult dogs anyways, and I would strongly suggest against getting them to anyone bothering to read this besides the poster, unless you are VERY experienced with dogs. Besides that, you need to see a behaviorist.  I can not read this dog’s language through a post to usenet, Akitas are generally difficult to work with anyways unless you’re very experienced with nordics in general and Akitas in particular (which I’m neither) and you’ve got a very serious problem on your hands.  Yes, submissive dogs can become fear biters.  Yes, you possibly have both.  Yes, it is very important to fix this problem before you are forced to euth her. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

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