>If you’re feeling really lonely, maybe someone on here could write >you a really "crisp your hair" type of flame message….  ;-)

Uh oh…  But I wasn’t looking for trouble… Just wondering how I managed to dodge the bullets.  But thanks for the offer, I’m sure my hair would be quite crispy.  :-) Christy — Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail "If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

Response:

Hello lia, > Feeling left out?

Whew! I’d say LUCKY, ‘cept I don’t believe in LUCK. > Need to be flamed to feel one of the gang?

WHY would anyone want to be one of this Gang Of Thugs? > Not to worry. People don’t generally flame me either,

That’s because you don’t deserve second notice. > and I have perfectly terrible social skills.

Well, this is dog behavior. The upper limits of our social skills are pretty muchsniffing ears and behinds and trying not to get jerked and shocked and choked for saying hullo or for just being a dog. >   At least, I think they don’t flame me,

Beause you don’t have the savvy to bother flaming you. It’d be like throwing a match in the lake. > but I killfile on the slightest provocation so I wouldn’t know.

EXACTLY. You’re not the sharpest knife in the drawer, lia. Remember mumsy telling you that? > It might be luck.

No. I think it’s moore like when we read stuff like your "1 step forward" post, we just cringe and pray for Cubbe’s early demise from natural causes. She doesn’t deserve the kind of torment you’ve put her through since you killfiled me on my first post to you two years ago. Now your dog Cubbe has snapped at a child because you continue to shock her despite that she’s already shown aggression towards you. > It  might be that our resident trolls are having a bad day.

It might be that there’s moore important posters to discredit? >  Either way, get the advice and entertainment from the group that > you want,

Yeah. Read about Fritz and Sampson. Then read lyindogDUMMY and some lying"I LOVE KOEHLER,"lynn. Most of our Gang Of Thugs are devout koehler trainers. > and ignore everything else.

Yeah. That’s the way it works for you, lia. Cubbe is going to pay for your lack of intelligence. > I do that and find that I learn a lot.

Yeah. See the thread "1 step forward." > –Lia Rober Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it.  This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior.  Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names.  Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are.   Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools.  Why do you act like fools?  I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.

I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing.  You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!

I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) END OF POST

Response:

>Am I doing something right?

Yup. Respond to what you can contribute to.  It may be advice, it may be something that can relieve some tension. Ignore the bad stuff.  Sometimes you’ve got to fight back, but make it a clean fight. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

Feeling left out?  Need to be flamed to feel one of the gang?  Not to worry. People don’t generally flame me either, and I have perfectly terrible social skills.  At least, I think they don’t flame me, but I killfile on the slightest provocation so I wouldn’t know.  It might be luck.  It might be that our resident trolls are having a bad day.  Either way, get the advice and entertainment from the group that you want, and ignore everything else.  I do that and find that I learn a lot. –Lia — "It is a strange fact of life on earth that a human being who reaches college age under the impression that "it’s" is the possessive form of "it" cannot be disabused of that belief.  No amount of red ink will wash it out."      Louis Menand

Response:

If you’re feeling really lonely, maybe someone on here could write you a really "crisp your hair" type of flame message….  ;-) -Lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, > I have a question about my own behavior, so it is a little off-topic > for this NG, although it is kind of about the NG, so… > I have been posting here for a few weeks, not a bunch, but some.  And > I have yet to be doused with gasoline and set alight (not that I want > to be) for something that I have said that someone didn’t agree with. > But I have seen lots of people get flamed pretty bad on their first > or second post, which leads to my question. > Am I doing something right?  Or am I just lucky?  Or do I just talk > too much and bore everyone?  I am just curious, since I don’t have > the best social skills in the world, and I am trying to > train/socialize myself a little better. > I enjoy the group, by the way.  I am learning a lot about both canine > and human behavior here.  :-)  I hope that I can contribute something > to the group as well. > Christy > — > Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail > "If we knew what we were doing, > it would not be called research, would it?" > Albert Einstein

Response:

All in all, it’s a really fun group, Christy.  :-)   Everyone here really seems to care for their dog.   What the problems arise from, are when people disagree and cannot agree to disagree.   Not saying that is either right or wrong, since we are all human & have more faults than our canine companions! *grins* Thinking back, I don’t think I’ve ever been "flamed" either, ripped on for "details"  by one or two particular people that seem to have issues with pretty much everyone, but flamed?  Nope. Stick around, have fun.    I figure everyday I have an opportunity to learn something new about my beloved dogs.   And the day I think I know it all, is going to be a sad, sad day. Shelly, Coda & Guiness…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi there, > I have a question about my own behavior, so it is a little off-topic > for this NG, although it is kind of about the NG, so… > I have been posting here for a few weeks, not a bunch, but some.  And > I have yet to be doused with gasoline and set alight (not that I want > to be) for something that I have said that someone didn’t agree with. > But I have seen lots of people get flamed pretty bad on their first > or second post, which leads to my question. > Am I doing something right?  Or am I just lucky?  Or do I just talk > too much and bore everyone?  I am just curious, since I don’t have > the best social skills in the world, and I am trying to > train/socialize myself a little better. > I enjoy the group, by the way.  I am learning a lot about both canine > and human behavior here.  :-)  I hope that I can contribute something > to the group as well. > Christy > — > Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail > "If we knew what we were doing, > it would not be called research, would it?" > Albert Einstein

Response:

> Hi there, > I have a question about my own behavior, so it is a little off-topic > for this NG, although it is kind of about the NG, so… > I have been posting here for a few weeks, not a bunch, but some.  And > I have yet to be doused with gasoline and set alight (not that I want > to be) for something that I have said that someone didn’t agree with.   > But I have seen lots of people get flamed pretty bad on their first > or second post, which leads to my question. > Am I doing something right?  Or am I just lucky?  Or do I just talk > too much and bore everyone?  I am just curious, since I don’t have > the best social skills in the world, and I am trying to > train/socialize myself a little better.

Hmmm – took a quick look and I’d say you are "doing something right".  In the first place you don’t get offended if someone contradicts or argues with you. That’s a big one. Some of the responses you get are not "flames" because you didn’t take them as "flames" – and you were right not to. The way you write your responses makes it clear that you at least think about what the other person is saying.  That’s all anyone has a right to ask. They can’t demand you agree, or change your mind. You also seem to know the difference between a fact and an opinion (even if you are occasionally mistaken about your facts <g>).  You write what works for you, but don’t usually load it with sideways comments about what other people do.   All of us get flamed eventually.  Some people are flame retardent, while others *poof* *sizzle* – in most cases it is attitude.1 > I enjoy the group, by the way.  I am learning a lot about both canine > and human behavior here.  :-)  I hope that I can contribute something > to the group as well.

Diane Blackman http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html "the real danger posed by the domestic dog is that its friendship threatens to dissolve or undermine the physchologial barrier that distinguished human from animal."  (Elmendorf & Kroeber (1960)) as cited in "The Domestic Dog" ch 16, James Serpell

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Not having to duck the flamethrowers? OT >Hi there, >I have a question about my own behavior, so it is a little off-topic >for this NG, although it is kind of about the NG, so… >I have been posting here for a few weeks, not a bunch, but some.  And >I have yet to be doused with gasoline and set alight (not that I want >to be) for something that I have said that someone didn’t agree with.   >But I have seen lots of people get flamed pretty bad on their first >or second post, which leads to my question. >Am I doing something right?  Or am I just lucky?  Or do I just talk >too much and bore everyone?  I am just curious, since I don’t have >the best social skills in the world, and I am trying to >train/socialize myself a little better. >I enjoy the group, by the way.  I am learning a lot about both canine >and human behavior here.  :-)  I hope that I can contribute something >to the group as well. >Christy >– >Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail >"If we knew what we were doing, >it would not be called research, would it?" >Albert Einstein

Yep. Until finding this newsgroup, I never imagined that the subject of pets could such a hotbed of ideology. As you’ve discovered, we have BARF-feeders verses veterinarians, breeders verses shelters, pit-buill owners against the general public — and that’s just for starters. As the dogs themselves can never really speak up about their lives under our dominance, it’s very easy to imagine ourselves as Moses bringing truth down from the mountain. So God help you if you don’t get down on your knees like a good little doggie and gratefully lick the chicken-blood off our almighty hands.

Response:

You’re just lucky!  I hate you!  You stink! (Just kidding!) — Dreamspinner3 Homepage: http://dreamspinner3.tripod.com/ ICQ: 48547727 "Apparently I’m insane.  But I’m one of the happy kinds!" The views I express are my own and do not reflect those of my employer.

Response:

>Until finding this newsgroup, I never imagined that the subject of >pets could such a hotbed of ideology. As you’ve discovered, we >have BARF-feeders verses veterinarians, breeders verses shelters, >pit-buill owners against the general public — and that’s just for >starters.

As far as I can tell, any topic can become a hotbed of ideology.  I haven’t been to any gardening newsgroups, but I bet there are some people there who get pretty passionate about others who mistreat their hothouse tomatoes.  :-) >As the dogs themselves can never really speak up about their lives >under our dominance, it’s very easy to imagine ourselves as Moses >bringing truth down from the mountain.

That, IMHO, is why people get so emotionally involved in some of the lines of argument here.  Since the animals can’t really speak up for themselves, their well-being can only be protected by people.  And if someone who really cares about animals (it seems that lots of people here are involved in rescue and see mistreated animals fairly often) sees a situation where an animal, in their view, is being harmed, they will feel compelled to speak up about it.   Nothing is wrong with that… I was prepared for it, actually, before I even checked out the NG.  I used to work with horses, and if you think that dog people defend their philosophies to the hilt…  :-) Christy — Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail "If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

Response:

Hi there, I have a question about my own behavior, so it is a little off-topic for this NG, although it is kind of about the NG, so… I have been posting here for a few weeks, not a bunch, but some.  And I have yet to be doused with gasoline and set alight (not that I want to be) for something that I have said that someone didn’t agree with.   But I have seen lots of people get flamed pretty bad on their first or second post, which leads to my question. Am I doing something right?  Or am I just lucky?  Or do I just talk too much and bore everyone?  I am just curious, since I don’t have the best social skills in the world, and I am trying to train/socialize myself a little better. I enjoy the group, by the way.  I am learning a lot about both canine and human behavior here.  :-)  I hope that I can contribute something to the group as well. Christy — Remove SPAMMENOT to e-mail "If we knew what we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" Albert Einstein

Response:

My dog, a 1/ 1/2 year old lab, has generally always been care free, friendly, and pretty much fearless.  We live in a large city (NY) and, from the time she was a small puppy, she never reacted badly to noise, traffic, people etc. (only the occasional growl at another dog). Three days per week, I take her to a "doggie day care" place, where she plays with other dogs during the day.  To get there, I walk a different route than I usually do when I otherwise walk her.   She has always seemed very happy there. Over the past month, when she realizes that we are walking in the direction of day care, she resists.  At one or two points on the walk, she gets very scared (ears and tail down, etc.) and tries to dart from the main avenue we are walking on, down a side street.   First, I thought that something must have happened at the day care place, some sort of abuse or something. But then I realized that its only the WALK that she is afraid of.  Once we get there, she is happy and races in the door with her tail wagging.   And, in the evening when its time to take her home, she resists leaving(but is fine when we get home)…again leading me to believe that she is afraid of something on the walk home.   She is fine when we don’t walk on the street (7th AVenue) that takes us to day care…her usual walks are on more subdued streets. Weird. I can’t figure it out.  I am not aware of anything happending to her on that walk that would be different from other walks etc. The only thing I can recall is a few times this winter when her feet were hurt from walking in salt thrown on the street. I try to avoid it but can’t always.  Once it hurt her feet a lot and she shrieked, and this happened on the walk to day care. Could it be the memory of her feet hurting from the salt? I’m totally at a loss.  I want her to get over this, but don’t know how (whether to keep taking her on the walk so she realizes that its okay, or to walk somewhere else for a while, …or, to comfort her and fawn over her, or to act like everything is normal). She seems to enjoy the day care place (and needs the freedom and exercise which I can’t otherwise give her), but I still, in the corner of my mind, wonder what happened there. Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated (also, any recommendations for good dog behavioral trainer in NYC wold he helpful).

Response:

> I understand spray cooking oils can be used to combat the iceball problem – > don’t know how it does on salt

I’ve tried Pam to protect against salt and other, harsher de-icers. It didn’t stop Orson from getting burns (nothing visible, but his feet obviously hurt him and he didn’t want to keep walking), but maybe I didn’t apply it thoroughly enough. I’ve had better luck with Vaseline, I think because it’s so thick. But I’ve abandoned that in favor of booties. Cate

Response:

Hello KrisHur,

> Looks like everyone else thinks it’s the memory of the salt,

Yup. Probably is. > me too, it must have be excruciating.

I dunno. I’m not comfortable going barefoot anywhere. YMMV. > NY Dog Spa absolutely can wash her feet as she comes > in, they have a set up for grooming so there must  be a > way.

Probably so. > As far as training goes, I’m not sure if they do behavior, > but Follow my Lead has excellent trainers. They are on the > upper west side though.

Yeah? You think they’ll be able to advise them HOWE to get the dog over spooking at the entrance? I doubt it…. You can get all the information you need to PROPERLY handle and train your dog using non force, non confronatational, scientific and psychological methods, in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com The Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual is provided compliments of  the BIOSOUND Scientific Elves as an alternative to Doggy Do Right (and Kitty Will Too). Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe. j;~}

Response:

>Yeah? You think they’ll be able to advise them HOWE to get the dog over >spooking at the entrance? I doubt it….

They actually work with dogs, not sitting in front of a computer all day playing with their dicks, like you do.

Response:

I understand spray cooking oils can be used to combat the iceball problem – don’t know how it does on salt Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I also live in an oversalted city. I am convinced that most people are > saltaholics when i see the mounds of salt they put out. Currently, i use a > lotion on my dogs paws to keep the salt from burning their feet. I can’t > remember the name of it, but if you go to a quality pet supply store, they > should be able to get you going with something. I think i’ve heard people > recommend bag balm for dog paws. I was actually looking for soemthing that might > keep my dogs’ paws from getting ice balls & the woman at the place recommended > this lotion (called Skin Works?). Here is their web address: > http://www.A1petsupply.com/index.html > They cater to the sled dog/pulling dog community but also carry very high > quality pet foods & supplies. Good Luck! > Phyl & the menagerie > Thanks. They do wipe off her feet there.  But, if we step in the salt on the > way, it hurts her right away so I’m not sure how much good the post-walk > wipe off does. > I bought some of those boots, but she won’t keep them on. She hate’s them > (somehow, my patient explanation of how much help they would be to her > didn’t impress her…). > So, I have now bought some of that wax they sell for this purpose. > Hopefully that will do something (other than have my landlord kill me for > tracking wax through the hallways!). > : Looks like everyone else thinks it’s the memory of the salt, me too, it > must > : have be excruciating. NY Dog Spa absolutely can wash her feet as she comes > : in, they have a set up for grooming so there must  be a way. As far as > : training goes, I’m not sure if they do behavior, but Follow my Lead has > : excellent trainers. They are on the upper west side though. > : > : > : > : > : —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > : http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > : —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Thanks. They do wipe off her feet there.  But, if we step in the salt on the way, it hurts her right away so I’m not sure how much good the post-walk wipe off does. I bought some of those boots, but she won’t keep them on. She hate’s them (somehow, my patient explanation of how much help they would be to her didn’t impress her…). So, I have now bought some of that wax they sell for this purpose. Hopefully that will do something (other than have my landlord kill me for tracking wax through the hallways!).

: Looks like everyone else thinks it’s the memory of the salt, me too, it must : have be excruciating. NY Dog Spa absolutely can wash her feet as she comes : in, they have a set up for grooming so there must  be a way. As far as : training goes, I’m not sure if they do behavior, but Follow my Lead has : excellent trainers. They are on the upper west side though. : : : : : —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– : http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! : —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Looks like everyone else thinks it’s the memory of the salt, me too, it must have be excruciating. NY Dog Spa absolutely can wash her feet as she comes in, they have a set up for grooming so there must  be a way. As far as training goes, I’m not sure if they do behavior, but Follow my Lead has excellent trainers. They are on the upper west side though. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

the > group members are West Siders, and someone might be able to give you help > here.

Avrama, you’ve unwittingly answered a question of mine. We recently found we might move to NYC, and of course the first thing I thought of was the major lifestyle change for Orson. I have so many concerns–nothing that, I think can’t be worked out–but concerns nonetheless. So I went to www.riversidedog.com and found links to other sites that are helping to put my mind at ease, including www.urbanhound.com. Of the people I know in New York, none owns a dog, so there’s no one that can give me practical advice on things like barking and neighbors (Orson’s an alerting-type barker), dogs in shops (have to go look up that thread from the other day where you were talking about this), dogs on mass transit & taxis, etc. Actually, your having lived in Ithaca and NYC is particularly useful. What would you say is the most important thing for an NYC dog owner to know? I’m so full of questions. Not the least of which relates to the OP. ie, will Orson become a scaredy-cat among the masses of people? I hope not. Man, I never thought heeling was that important in the context of our lives. Looks like it’s time for another obedience class, with more emphasis on that. Cate

Response:

> The only thing I can recall is a few times this winter when her feet were > hurt from walking in salt thrown on the street. I try to avoid it but can’t > always.  Once it hurt her feet a lot and she shrieked, and this happened on > the walk to day care. > Could it be the memory of her feet hurting from the salt?

Sounds likely to me.  Maybe she needs booties on snow days-I kid you not, they make them for dogs.  You should also ask the doggie day care if it would be possible for you to rinse off her feet on snow days.  I’ve never taken my beast to a day care but I would think they have some set-up to wash dogs, accidents do happen. .or, to comfort her and fawn over her, or > to act like everything is normal).

Act like everything is normal.  But, you must make some provision to protect her paws.  Whether you get her boots, or take a different path, or a taxi ride is up to you.  But you must avoid that stuff, and arrange to wash it off her feet if she steps in it.  In some cases it is not even salt, but some other chemical. You have done a fine job of observing your dog and analyzing what happened. I would go with your idea of a problem with the stuff on the pavement.  Good luck! jdoee and Stacey Dog, who both live in rainy Seattle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My dog, a 1/ 1/2 year old lab, has generally always been care free, > friendly, and pretty much fearless. snip

Response:

There’s almost always far too much salt on Seventh Avenue, except where the sidewalk isn’t cleared or salted at all.  What part of 7th Avenue are you talking about? Remember, the West Side is crowded, noisy, and all too often there isn’t even room between the cars for a dog to go into the gutter and dump a load. All of which leads up to unpleasantness for the dog. group members are West Siders, and someone might be able to give you help here. — avrama & baruch the academic factor <>the most beautiful dog in the world is the one who looks at you with love. <>

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My dog, a 1/ 1/2 year old lab, has generally always been care free, > friendly, and pretty much fearless.  We live in a large city (NY) and, from > the time she was a small puppy, she never reacted badly to noise, traffic, > people etc. (only the occasional growl at another dog). > Three days per week, I take her to a "doggie day care" place, where she > plays with other dogs during the day.  To get there, I walk a different > route than I usually do when I otherwise walk her.   She has always seemed > very happy there. > Over the past month, when she realizes that we are walking in the direction > of day care, she resists.  At one or two points on the walk, she gets very > scared (ears and tail down, etc.) and tries to dart from the main avenue we > are walking on, down a side street.   First, I thought that something must > have happened at the day care place, some sort of abuse or something. > But then I realized that its only the WALK that she is afraid of.  Once we > get there, she is happy and races in the door with her tail wagging. And, > in the evening when its time to take her home, she resists leaving(but is > fine when we get home)…again leading me to believe that she is afraid of > something on the walk home.   She is fine when we don’t walk on the street > (7th AVenue) that takes us to day care…her usual walks are on more subdued > streets. > Weird. I can’t figure it out.  I am not aware of anything happending to her > on that walk that would be different from other walks etc. > The only thing I can recall is a few times this winter when her feet were > hurt from walking in salt thrown on the street. I try to avoid it but can’t > always.  Once it hurt her feet a lot and she shrieked, and this happened on > the walk to day care. > Could it be the memory of her feet hurting from the salt? > I’m totally at a loss.  I want her to get over this, but don’t know how > (whether to keep taking her on the walk so she realizes that its okay, or to > walk somewhere else for a while, …or, to comfort her and fawn over her, or > to act like everything is normal). > She seems to enjoy the day care place (and needs the freedom and exercise > which I can’t otherwise give her), but I still, in the corner of my mind, > wonder what happened there. > Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated (also, any recommendations > for good dog behavioral trainer in NYC wold he helpful).

Response:

Thanks.  Actually, I’m talking about 7th Avenue in Chelsea.  I live in the West Village and walk her up 7th to 18th Street to the NY Dog Spa.

: There’s almost always far too much salt on Seventh Avenue, except where the : sidewalk isn’t cleared or salted at all.  What part of 7th Avenue are you : talking about? Remember, the West Side is crowded, noisy, and all too often : there isn’t even room between the cars for a dog to go into the gutter and : dump a load. All of which leads up to unpleasantness for the dog. : the : group members are West Siders, and someone might be able to give you help : here. : — : avrama & baruch : the academic factor : : <>the most beautiful dog in the world is the one who looks at you with love. : <>

: > My dog, a 1/ 1/2 year old lab, has generally always been care free, : > friendly, and pretty much fearless.  We live in a large city (NY) and, : from : > the time she was a small puppy, she never reacted badly to noise, traffic, : > people etc. (only the occasional growl at another dog). : > : > Three days per week, I take her to a "doggie day care" place, where she : > plays with other dogs during the day.  To get there, I walk a different : > route than I usually do when I otherwise walk her.   She has always seemed : > very happy there. : > : > Over the past month, when she realizes that we are walking in the : direction : > of day care, she resists.  At one or two points on the walk, she gets very : > scared (ears and tail down, etc.) and tries to dart from the main avenue : we : > are walking on, down a side street.   First, I thought that something must : > have happened at the day care place, some sort of abuse or something. : > : > But then I realized that its only the WALK that she is afraid of.  Once we : > get there, she is happy and races in the door with her tail wagging. : And, : > in the evening when its time to take her home, she resists leaving(but is : > fine when we get home)…again leading me to believe that she is afraid of : > something on the walk home.   She is fine when we don’t walk on the street : > (7th AVenue) that takes us to day care…her usual walks are on more : subdued : > streets. : > : > Weird. I can’t figure it out.  I am not aware of anything happending to : her : > on that walk that would be different from other walks etc. : > : > The only thing I can recall is a few times this winter when her feet were : > hurt from walking in salt thrown on the street. I try to avoid it but : can’t : > always.  Once it hurt her feet a lot and she shrieked, and this happened : on : > the walk to day care. : > : > Could it be the memory of her feet hurting from the salt? : > : > I’m totally at a loss.  I want her to get over this, but don’t know how : > (whether to keep taking her on the walk so she realizes that its okay, or : to : > walk somewhere else for a while, …or, to comfort her and fawn over her, : or : > to act like everything is normal). : > She seems to enjoy the day care place (and needs the freedom and exercise : > which I can’t otherwise give her), but I still, in the corner of my mind, : > wonder what happened there. : > : > Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated (also, any : recommendations : > for good dog behavioral trainer in NYC wold he helpful). : > : > : > : > : > : :

Response:

Many thanks for you help and guidance Ant

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Ant,

Response:

Many thanks for you help and guidance Ant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Ant, at 9 weeks she is still young and probably cannot control herself.  Don’t scold her, it will confuse her.  If she is relieving herself indoors, it is NOT her fault – she has to be taken outside and at 9 weeks, she has to go out often.  I have French mastiffs and have housebroken all of them.  Put her on a schedule, stick to it even on weekends, praise her when she goes outside, ignore her mistakes and do NOT scold her – it is not her fault..  It will take time. If your partner thinks the puppy can be housetrained in short order, he/she needs a reality check.  A puppy has trouble controlling itself before 12 weeks of age or more.  I do crate my young dogs at night and if the weather is too bad for them to be outside in the yard (fenced, of course), never when someone is home with them.  One more note:  my first mastiff drove me nuts.  She would go outside, come in and immediately pee again, every time.  I finally understood that she needed to pee twice and that was the end of that problem.   Stick with it, she can be housebroken, but it will take a little time. Susan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi > We have an English/bull mastiff puppy (9weeks)  I would really appreciate > any guidance on the best way to housebreak her, we presently have a litter > tray which she is put on to if she messes on the floor etc.  She is scolded > (although not severely) when she messes on the floor,and praised if she uses > the tray. > My partner is starting to give me the " the dog will have to go if it isn’t > house trained soon" look.  So any help with speeding up the process would be > very much appreciated. > Ant

Response:

> Hi > We have an English/bull mastiff puppy (9weeks)  I would really appreciate > any guidance on the best way to housebreak her, we presently have a litter > tray which she is put on to if she messes on the floor etc.  She is scolded > (although not severely) when she messes on the floor,and praised if she uses > the tray.

I think you are making a mistake to teach the dog to relieve itself indoors.   Start with this site http://www.learn2.com/08/0827/0827.asp then try this one http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-puppy.htm Stop scolding the dog. You may be thinking you are scolding her for messing on the floor but she doesn’t speak english.  All she knows is that you behave in an irrational manner in the presence of her elimination.  If she has not already done so a typical reaction will be to start trying to hide it from you – or eating it.  It will not help her become housetrained.  If she manages to urinate or defecate in an inappropriate place the reason is because you failed to properly supervise her.  Your job is to frequently take her to an appropriate place to eliminate, wait until she does so, then praise.  At her age she needs to eliminate at least every two hours.  IN ADDITION to that every two hours she will need to eliminate (1) shortly after eating or drinking (2) within two to five minutes of any play session and (3) immediately after waking up (no – not ten minutes, not five minutes, when puppy wakes up it needs to GO).  Puppies are pee and poop machines.  Let’s say you take the puppy out and it "goes" you then come inside and start to play.  You are playing for about three minutes and puppy suddenly runs five feet away and pees !right in front of you!  Is puppy being bad? no Is puppy being defiant? no.  You made a mistake. You forgot that playing stimulates the bowel and bladder. You should have stopped the game and taken the puppy outside.  Or when puppy bolted out of the game scooped puppy up and taken her outside. > My partner is starting to give me the " the dog will have to go if it isn’t > house trained soon" look.  So any help with speeding up the process would be > very much appreciated.

Sorry, but you have a long way to go before you can expect your pup to be housetrained.  Until about 12 weeks the puppy has only rudimentary control over bowel and bladder.  This problem is hardly going to be the most challenging you will be facing as a new dog owner.  If your partner is intolerant of this situation you might seriously reconsider your decision to have a puppy.  Getting a puppy, or even a dog, is something that all family members should be happy with.  If one is reluctant or against the idea it usually spells trouble for the dog, especially when it passes out of the cute puppy stage and into the rebellious teenage stage. Diane Blackman http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html "When classifying reinforcements as positive or negative, it is best to think of the terms as mathematical rather than emotional. A reinforcer is positive if it is added to the situation and negative if it is removed." "Smart Trainers — Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis

Response:

Hello blackman, You’ve got your own problems with your own dogs. You day board your dogs because they’re not trustworthy at home alone. Your own dog has pulled relentlessly for five years. You keep giving us these helpful web sites with all the information that has helped YOU so much. Let’s see what kind of advice you’ve got here… > Start with this site > http://www.learn2.com/08/0827/0827.asp

"Unless you catch a dog in the act, don’t scold him, especially if he’s very young. " So, "catching" the dog "in the act" and punishing him is GOOD? That’s not been my experience. In fact, THAT’S what causes dog behavior problems, and THAT’S WHY you don’t have trustworthy dogs. "When a dog has to go, he’ll usually let you know by circling and sniffing–unless he’s really desperate and doesn’t have time. When you see this happening, stop him with a firm "No" and perhaps a tug at the scruff of the neck." Yes, that’s what causes dogs to have anxiety about housebreaking. "Use praise, not blame," but when the time comes, just a little chin cuff, scruff shake, jerking, choking, and shocking, are APPROPRIATE??? "And when he’s been naughty? A very firm "No!" is far more effective than a rolled-up newspaper." Isn’t that contradicting koehler, who is adamant about NOT giving those "less effective" corrections??? Most of our Gang Of Thugs are koehler trainers. YOU defend koehler yourself, DON’T YOU? Are you saying koehler is WRONG??? Perhaps we should talk about it? See my thread "The Tough Questions." Tell your pals. Start by telling your pals at > http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/lib-puppy.htm

That’s dr. p. of the U of Wisc. This is about the worst collection of mistaken, abusive, and useless information I’ve ever seen, except for your own and cindymooreon’s web sites. You’ve relied on them for years, and STILL you haven’t made any progress. You still defend hurting and confronting, and confining  dogs to train them. Why do you insist that hammering a square peg into a round hole is going to work any better TODAY, than it has over the past thirty years??? Why don’t you actually LOOK at the advice you’re giving people here??? Your pal, Jerry "The Phony," Howe.

whittled these words: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi > We have an English/bull mastiff puppy (9weeks)  I would really appreciate > any guidance on the best way to housebreak her, we presently have a litter > tray which she is put on to if she messes on the floor etc.  She is scolded > (although not severely) when she messes on the floor,and praised if she uses > the tray. > I think you are making a mistake to teach the dog to relieve itself > indoors. > Stop scolding the dog. You may be thinking you are scolding her for > messing on the floor but she doesn’t speak english.  All she knows is > that you behave in an irrational manner in the presence of her > elimination.  If she has not already done so a typical reaction will be > to start trying to hide it from you – or eating it.  It will not help her > become housetrained.  If she manages to urinate or defecate in an > inappropriate place the reason is because you failed to properly > supervise her.  Your job is to frequently take her to an appropriate > place to eliminate, wait until she does so, then praise.  At her age she > needs to eliminate at least every two hours.  IN ADDITION to that every > two hours she will need to eliminate (1) shortly after eating or drinking > (2) within two to five minutes of any play session and (3) immediately > after waking up (no – not ten minutes, not five minutes, when puppy wakes > up it needs to GO).  Puppies are pee and poop machines.  Let’s say you > take the puppy out and it "goes" you then come inside and start to > play.  You are playing for about three minutes and puppy suddenly runs > five feet away and pees !right in front of you!  Is puppy being bad? no > Is puppy being defiant? no.  You made a mistake. You forgot that playing > stimulates the bowel and bladder. You should have stopped the game and > taken the puppy outside.  Or when puppy bolted out of the game scooped > puppy up and taken her outside. > My partner is starting to give me the " the dog will have to go if it isn’t > house trained soon" look.  So any help with speeding up the process would be > very much appreciated. > Sorry, but you have a long way to go before you can expect your pup to be > housetrained.  Until about 12 weeks the puppy has only rudimentary > control over bowel and bladder.  This problem is hardly going to be the > most challenging you will be facing as a new dog owner.  If your partner > is intolerant of this situation you might seriously reconsider your > decision to have a puppy.  Getting a puppy, or even a dog, is something > that all family members should be happy with.  If one is reluctant or > against the idea it usually spells trouble for the dog, especially when > it passes out of the cute puppy stage and into the rebellious teenage > stage. > Diane Blackman > http://www.dog-play.com/  http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html > "When classifying reinforcements as positive or negative, it is best to > think of the terms as mathematical rather than emotional. A reinforcer is > positive if it is added to the situation and negative if it is removed." > "Smart Trainers — Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis

Response:

Hi We have an English/bull mastiff puppy (9weeks)  I would really appreciate any guidance on the best way to housebreak her, we presently have a litter tray which she is put on to if she messes on the floor etc.  She is scolded (although not severely) when she messes on the floor,and praised if she uses the tray. My partner is starting to give me the " the dog will have to go if it isn’t house trained soon" look.  So any help with speeding up the process would be very much appreciated. Ant

Response:

Hello Ant,

> Hi > We have an English/bull mastiff puppy (9weeks)  I would really > appreciate any guidance on the best way to housebreak her, we > presently have a litter tray which she is put on to if she messes on > the floor etc.

Putting her on an authorized break area AFTER the fact, isn’t going to teach her where she should have relieved herself a couple minutes ago… > She is scolded (although not severely) when she messes on the > floor

That’s not the point. The point IS, ANY confrontation will cause stress and anxiety, and will teach her that all she’s got to do is make a mistake on the floor, and you’ll pay her 100% of your undivided attention. THAT’S WHY DOGS DON’T HOUSEBREAK. We inhibit them, with our inappropriate efforts to houstrain them. > and praised if she uses the tray. > My partner is starting to give me the " the dog will have to go if it > isn’t house trained soon" look.

I’d suggest a new partner. > So any help with speeding up the process would be > very much appreciated.

Tell your partner it’s either the dog or you. And then follow the advice below… > Ant

HOUSEBREAKING The more you try to "housebreak" her, the more she will do it, and you will never get it done. Here are directions that will quickly get you in good shape with her, but you must follow the directions exactly. Part of the solution is to teach the dog to relieve himself on command, so that the dog knows the purpose of his trip outside, and that he’s got two minutes to relieve himself. That can be done in a couple of days, with a determined effort to supervise and walk the dog as needed when appropriate breaks are necessary, or when the dog shows signs that he needs to go out. Two minutes of standing in one appropriate break area, without walking or talking (which would will only distract the dog.) The request to take a break, should be asked, and if the dog sniffs the ground he should be praised. If he looks around at the birds or other distractions, a second request to take a break should be given. If he sniffs the ground he should be told he’s a good boy,if not, he should elapse the two minutes without walking around and return inside. If he did not relieve himself, constant supervision will be necessary until the dog again shows signs of needing to go. When that happens, it may only be five minutes after having just been out, he should be offered another break, and the same procedure should follow. Two minutes, and that’s it. No more than two requests to relieve himself, and no unnecessary walking. He should be handled on a six foot lead, to prevent hem from wandering around, and getting distracted from his task. You may not have just a housebreaking problem, but also a behavior problem. Every time you react to your dog’s housebreaking mistake, you are reinforcing it as a negative attention getting device. Here’s what you need to do to end your dog’s ability to pull your chain: The behavior is being reinforced when you confront the dog about the behavior. This becomes a vicious cycle, the punishment or scolding only create more stress and anxiety, which may cause other behavior problems as a replacement, even though confronting the dog did seem to "work." Obviously, confronting the dog hasn’t worked, and that should not have been the recommended method to deal with this, or any behavior or housebreaking problem. Keeping the lead on you dog while you go about the house is often recommended, and might occasionally work. You can’t just tie a dog on your belt, and expect him to act like a key chain. The only time the dog should be on lead with you, is when the dog is properly on command. Otherwise, the restriction will cause stress and further promote other behavior problems. How can you deal with the dog tied to you, if you haven’t learned proper lead handling techniques? The pup isn’t a sack of sand, that can be dragged around and dropped anywhere you put it.  Any pulling on the dog’s collar will cause out of control behavior. It’s called the opposition reflex. Now, how do you deal with this? It’s real simple, but you have to not let the dog see your reaction, or he’ll still be "rewarded" for the crime. Ignore the incident. Walk right past the "mistake." It wasn’t a mistake, and you can’t call your physical or verbal attention into the problem without creating more difficulty for yourself. Prearrange a soda can with six pennies in it, in a convenient central location. The can must be picked up silently and unobtrusively, and as you casually, in the presence of the dog, walk by the "dirty deed," you should just ask, "what’s that?" as you subtly drop the can next to the spot, without saying ANYTHING further. Continue doing something else for a moment, and ask the pup if he’d like to do something, like go outside, or anything to get him out of the way, so that you may clean the spot and retrieve the can without him observing and hearing you cuss under your breath about the mess and extra work. When the dog returns to that room with you, he’s going to look at the spot, and look back up at you. You must tell him he is a good boy, and sound like you really mean it. This will blow the dog’s mind, and will render his negative attention getting device that he’s using against you, useless. With a couple of examples of this, the dog will begin to search for other ways to command your attention. Hopefully, he will pick a positive attention getting device. All dogs need attention. What you need to do, is give him that attention prior to the dog getting into trouble. Any time the dog makes even brief eye contact, or glances out of the corner of his eye at you, that moment requires prolonged (5-15 seconds) of non physical praise, unless the dog is right by your side. Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.  I remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very helpful advise. Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.  Also while trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.  I’m not a professional in this area that is why I am asking the questions. It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private not in public forum. Sherri

Response:

I thought so too, Sherri, when I first came here.  My killfile is huge, and just from some of the dog related ng’s. — Remove the word "trucks" from the address in order to answer e-mail.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.  Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.  I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri

Response:

>It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private >not in public forum. >Sherri

 Dear Sherri,  Try using a killfile, like mine below, and you will find this  newsgroup quite readable.  –Marshall I have read rpdb for about four years. Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much. They include: Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane Webb, and Terri Willis. Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of                http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer "From the time of early robust humans [about 100,000 years ago] to the present, the human brain has stayed the same size." Ernst Mayr, _This is Biology_, p. 240. Consequently, what separates us from those "early robust humans" is culture! /"Jerry Howe"/h:j /Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe /Ed Williams/h:j /BIGDOGBITE/h:j /Evil Lad/h:j /JohnDoe/h:j

Response:

football analyst by CBS for saying.. > I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.  I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.  Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.  I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri

I couldn’t have said it better myself.  I came in to get some different opinions and viewpoints, not to be told that I’m basically an idiot who has no idea how to treat a dog or take care of one.  The animals I have had in my life, the animals that I have cared for in the kennel I worked for two years, and those I treated in pre-vet courses would all disagree with this assertion, but that matters little when an opportunity for a cheap shot is there, it seems. Thankfully, there are some who dispense their advice with a grain of salt, with the realization that they don’t know everything, and that don’t feel the need to talk down to someone merely because they have a different methodology. — "For those who preserve it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> I thought so too, Sherri, when I first came here.  My killfile is huge, and > just from some of the dog related ng’s.

 koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.

Response:

>/Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe

Suggestion: /nin*y *boy/h:j this catches the assorted misspellings of ninyboy, ninny boy, etc. –Cindy

Response:

Hello Sherri,

> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.

Well, it USED to be, until I and a few OTHER competent trainers came around and EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED the dog abusers we’ve got here… Now all they do is lie about me, and most of the COMPETENT TRAINERS don’t bother posting here anymore, because they get burned out trying to defend NOT HURTING DOGS to train them. >  I remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise.

No doubt that’s where you learned the nilif and the alpha rollover… > Man has this group changed!!

Think IMPROVED. Our Gang Of Thugs is a little more cautious about giving "advice" that may recieve criticism from the true experts here. > I really just came for some practical advise on how to deal w/the

aggression issues we are > having.

Oh, well I can save you lots of trouble. Just read koehler. MOST of our contributors are koehler trainers. Ask a couple of them for instructions for HANGING your dog, that’s the ONLY way they can deal with the sort of problems your dog has. That and jerk and choke the dog on a pronged choke collar, shock, and confine IT till IT straightens out, our until you KILL the dog, TO BE FAIR. > Not to be criticized for trying to help this dog.

Oh, that’s just a couple of our regulars. The rest will be glad to write you off the board, with instructions for dominating and subordinating your dog. > And definitely not to be involved in what appears to be a large amount of bashing and > disagreements.

You mean disagreements over the METHODS you’ve been taught to dominate your dog? >  Also while trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.

I’m not sure what you mean by that. I think you mean to say you didn’t clearly articulate what you’ve been "taught" by the bums who gave you all the good "alpha domninance" techniques. When those techniques FAIL, you KILL the dog. That’s the part they don’t talk about until they pass around the crying towel, telling you HOWE much you cared, and HOWE you done everything you possibly could, except LEARN EFFECTIVE behavior modification techniques. They’ll come right out and tell you my methods won’t work, and then they’ll have a good cry with you… > I’m not a professional in this area that is why I am asking the questions.

I’ve specialized in temperment and behavior problems for three dozen years with giant breed dogs… Our "experts" here are chumps. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in

privatenot in public > forum.

Sorry. This is where these bums NEED to be EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED. > Sherri

Wanna know what makes a perfectly well behaved, perfectly housebroken, very psychotic dog??? koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.

Response:

>  koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog

Howe on being an idiot     http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.

Response:

> Well, it USED to be, until I and a few OTHER competent trainers came around > and > EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED the dog abusers

             Right here   http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.

Response:

> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.  I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed

Don’t know if it’s changed, Sheri. I was jumped when i wandered in two years ago, and the abuse hasn’t stopped since. It’s usenet, sherri. These people r mostly a bunch of emotional cripples. U can forget about the "shame on u guys" cause they don’t seem to have any shame, and they’ve got a collective memory of about 2 weeks so it don’t much matter to them how stupid, ignorant, or nasty they come off. I read your original post and the advice u received really wasn’t all that bad. It’s free remember? Sure these guys can be a little condescending and sanctimonious–especially when you consider how wrong they usually are about dog behavior–but that feeling of being an expert at something is pretty much the only compensation they get here. So give it to them. U might try running a search in the deja archives 4 (canis55 AND trick or treat). If u can find that trick or treat exercise, it should prove very helpful in your dog’s case. My opinion is I wouldn’t adopt out that pooch without informing new owner that the dog has or has had this problem. Also wouldn’t recommend this ng to anyone without telling them we have had or do have this problem. Before you buy.

Response:

> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.  I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.  

[snip] Sherri, There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group.  But you posted a pretty tough question.  I suspect lots of us have ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a dangerous/destructive situation such as you described. IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get rid of the dog."  But it is really a personal decision how committed you are to keeping, managing, and attempting to rehabilitate this animal.  Beyond that, *I* sure have no advice for you; I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving that way before. What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions for this one. — Amy Frost Dahl            Retriever Training            phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370                                             (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

> I couldn’t have said it better myself.  I came in to get some different > opinions and viewpoints, not to be told that I’m basically an idiot who > has no idea how to treat a dog or take care of one.

  Um, Bryan- I read both the threads you started (didn’t contribute because others had already given good advice), and I’m puzzled as to why you would feel you were told you were "an idiot". True, a couple of people responded thinking that you were leaving the dog out all the time, but I didn’t see anybody being nasty. Indeed, at least one of those people *apologised* to you for misunderstanding you. And a number of people made useful comments- did I miss something?   Not trying to be combative, at all- I’m genuinely confused!  The animals I have > had in my life, the animals that I have cared for in the kennel I worked > for two years, and those I treated in pre-vet courses would all disagree > with this assertion, but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems.

  Hm, well, I think anybody who read *all* of your posts would also disagree. It’s just that we *do* get a lot of people who really *don’t* have a clue- just like the ones you mentioned running into when you worked at the shelter. People get a bit cynical, I think, when they’ve seen it over and over, and sometimes jump to conclusions…  And we DO have a few resident buttheads! I commend you, BTW, for answering those who were critical in an evenhanded manner, and calmly explaining where they were mistaken. >   Thankfully, there are some who dispense their advice with a grain of > salt, with the realization that they don’t know everything, and that > don’t feel the need to talk down to someone merely because they have a > different methodology.

  Actually, Bryan, if you stick around (and ignore the squabbles, which are mostly precipitated by four specific people), I think you’ll find that there’s a *lot* of good discussion in RPDB. It’s why I’m still here after fo ur years, despite our resident certified loony and the two or three cranks who pop in and out.   I hope you *do* stick around- we need more sensible posters! And I’d like to hear how things go with your new pup. Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin,  CGC, AD, S-OAC, S-OJC, O-OGC, EJC, 1/2 EAC (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament and Wicked Cat Extraordinaire Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass,  NAC, O-NJC, NGC Robyn the Meezer-Brat, Inspector of Human Activity & Intrepid Door-Climber we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92 New (and funny) pics at: http://www.ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=949D9283B0C2A393

Response:

Hello john, You’ve given a couple of pretty lousy links there…

> www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/library.htm

This link is to our lyingdoc dermer’s university. Same stupid crap, dressed in alphabet soup. > Just about anything you would ever need to know about your pup > can be found there. > another good dog related site is: > http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/ > which is the site run by the Monks of New Skete

The heavy handed Thugs? They brought us the alpha rollover, and tell us when we HIT the dog, if he don’t SCREAM, we didn’t HIT him HARD enough.. > good luck and don’t be put off by the kooks in > Rec.Pets.Dog.Behavior

Yes, we’ve got a bunch of them here. I’m working on choking them to death. Your pal, Jerry. > –Marshall lyingdoc dermer writes: > I have read rpdb for about four years.

Yes, you’ve been one of the ringleaders here in defence of confronting and punishing dogs. You lost the title Master Of Deception, when you crossed the line from OPINION, to OUTRIGHT LYING. > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of

the rpdb regulars from > whom I have learned much.

This is PRECIOUS… We’ll SEE EXACTLY what kind of INFORMATION you respect… They include: Amy Dahl, "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG, Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears" INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES. >  Diane Blackman,

She admits she doesn’t know enough about training to edit the VICIOUS and ERRONEOUS links on her web page. She’s taken the title "Master of Decpetion" by default. She comes close to lying, but hasn’t actually been DIRECT enought to get BAGGED, as you did, lying doc. She day boards her dogs because they are not trustworthy at home alone, and has had a dog for five years who’s relentlessly pulled on lead, DESPITE the neat little knitted cover-up for her pronged choke collar, so her PALS don’t see what she does to her dogs. > jdoee, J

Said to lyingdogDUMMY: "I was trying to learn something from your posts." "My on the job persona would be incompetent as a dog keeper." jdoee and Stacey Dog >.janet Boss,

See the thread "interested in hearing," where she overlooks TWO shock containment systems that made the dog aggressive. Her solution for all aggression problesm is to jerk and choke the dog on pronged choke collars and confine the dog to a crate when you are not able to sufficiently jerk and choke the dog… > Susan Fraser,

She HURTS dogs to train them, and says it doesn’t HURT. > Avrama Gingold,

"Chin cuff" does not mean HIT the dog." She got her own front teeth knocked down her throat because of jerking her dog and making it look like an accident. The dog LEARNED to HURT her AND make it LOOK like an accident, as he was TAUGHT. > Lynn Kosmakos,

"I LOVE KOEHLER." Says it all for me…, writes for a new foster care dog:  "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and  pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.  When he barks, use the line for a correction." > Bob Maida,

He’s NEVER given any training advice here, and even referred a LIVE CUSTOMER to ANOTHER TRAINER who’s got "more experience" with dog/dog aggression… He’s only been in this RACKET for thirty years…he was AFRAID that carol would come back here and tell us HE said to jerk, choke, and HANG, her dog. He says he recommends his "students" read cindymooreon’s web site, and they LEARN a lot from her…(This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) > Cindy Tittle Moore,

Ah yes. cindymooreon. She’s been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow her to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. She believes ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… She’ll twist and pinch ears as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work. > Denna Pace,

"There’s much wisdom in koehler." (Her dogs run away from home.) Says it all for me. > John Richardson,

He’ll killl any pit bull who growls at a human. No second chances here. He’s a pit bull libertarian, and KILLS aggressive pit dogs to PROTECT the good reputation of the breed. > Ludwig Smith,

"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. > Jane Webb,

She "trains the come command with positive reinforcement," and "PROOFS IT" with the shock collar. > and Terri Willis.

Yes, our psychoclown: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of >                http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer

Response:

>/Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe > Suggestion: > /nin*y *boy/h:j > this catches the assorted misspellings of ninyboy, ninny boy, etc. > –Cindy

Ah yes. cindymooreon. You’ve  been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow you to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. You believe ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… You’ll twist and pinch ears as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work. You’ve been OBSESSED with harassing me, because I’ve EXPOSED, IDENTIFIED, and shown everyone what kind of SADISCTIC IDIOTS, you and your Gang Of Thugs pals are. Have a nice day! Jerry. j;~} HERE’S a couple of questions that have STUMPED THE THUGS: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 William Koehler Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider: "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? See what I mean? You can’t justify that. "Read koehler for content" marquis de shaw, IDIOT, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, IDIOT, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.

"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG," lyingfrosty dahl. koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us  HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? That’s the ONLY question ANYONE of you CAN answer. The answer is OBVIOUS. koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) HOWE MUCH brains does it take to beat a dog every twenty minutes for the same mistake you’ve tied it next to??? But I might like shooting them with a sling shot or BB gun better, you know, to teach the dog to WANT to stay at home "Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "Don’t let him do that & read cindymooreon’s web page," boob maida. (This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:  For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and  pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.  When he barks, use the line for a correction. Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in." "Has not Nature proved, in giving us the strength necessary to submit them to our desires, that we have the right to do so?" le Marquis de Sade "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.

Response:

Hello lyingfrosty dahl, You got any idea why I call you a proven liar? I’ll post some QUOTES from you below…

> There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group.

Let’s talk about the NOISE a dog makes when you pinch and twist IT’S ears… Your pal cindymooreon won’t answer that because she don’t hear them scream… Or do you only pinch? I never get that straight, do I??? I’ve never beaten a dog with a stick before. What’s THAT sound like??? > But you posted a pretty tough question.  I suspect lots of us have > ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but > do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a > dangerous/destructive situation such as you described.

You’re a koehler trainer. I’ll post some of the good koehler training for housebreaking and barking below. That’s the ESSENCE of most of koehler’s COMMUNICATON with dogs, eh? Huh? It’s a language they understand. It’s PRECISE, isn’t it??? > IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get > rid of the dog."

Your buddies here would say "KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR." > But it is really a personal decision how committed you are to keeping, managing, and > attempting to rehabilitate this animal.

You say that because you only understand HURTING dogs to train them. You admit you flunked out of clicker training because you’re too impatient, vicious, and too stupid. > Beyond that, *I* sure have no advice for you;

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! > I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving that way before.

You’ve never heard of TRAINING a dog, either. You HURT dogs to make them UNABLE to RESIST your "will." > What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this > newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case > there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who > can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions > for this one.

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! That’s an UNDERSTATEMENT. The BUMS here are mostly koehler trainers, and they ONLY understand HURTING dogs to train them. YOU KNOW THAT as well as I do… The CURE for this dog is to SHOCK, JERK and CHOKE IT on a pronged choke collar, or to HANG IT into being FRIENDLY. > Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370    (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG," lyingfrosty dahl.  koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.

Response:

>I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.

There’s nothing wrong with giving a good dog another chance at life. The monster you turned loose on your daughter is just causing havoc. How could anyone in their right mind give you the go ahead to behave so badly?

Response:

snip reasonable comments >but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems.

snip Certainly is the way I’ve been seeing it. I think its a behavior issue – people can be trained to be mean and cruel and to delight in the cheap shot – doesn’t take much just being the target for a while either drives people away or hones them sharper. Very astute take on the situation you have IMO. Nancy whet whet whet

Response:

>snip reasonable comments >but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems. >snip >Certainly is the way I’ve been seeing it. >I think its a behavior issue – people can be trained to be mean and cruel >and to delight in the cheap shot – …

…or they can be just like you, ya’ nasty ol’ hag, and be totally oblivious as to how NATURALLY NASTY and MEAN-SPIRITED you can be, and without any coaxing from anyone, either. Yup…you’re a naturally nasty ol’ hag. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

> Hello john, > You’ve given a couple of pretty lousy links there…

Here is a good one          http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.

Response:

Hello elaine, That’s YOUR perception of the state of the art of "training" as you’ve been taught by our "experts" here… Life doesn’t have to HURT. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be > criticized > for trying to help this dog. > There’s nothing wrong with giving a good dog another chance at life. The > monster you turned loose on your daughter is just causing havoc. How could > anyone in their right mind give you the go ahead to behave so badly?

Response:

Ya, you thought you’d be supported just because the assailant is a DOG.  On whacked out pet newsgroups like this, a DOG can do anything to anybody, and many here don’t care at all because it’s a dog doing it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.  Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.  I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri

Response:

>I’ve never beaten a dog with a stick before.

Nope….just kill them with a good spike and squirt.

Response:

>It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private >not in public forum. >Sherri >  Dear Sherri, >  Try using a killfile, like mine below, and you will find this >  newsgroup quite readable. >  –Marshall

Let’s take a close look at your sig file, eh lyingdoc??? I just love making a chump out of you. HOWE’S my spellin, prufessor? And my granma sends her best… > I have read rpdb for about four years.

Yes, you’ve been one of the ringleaders here in defence of confronting and punishing dogs. You lost the title Master Of Deception, when you crossed the line from OPINION, to OUTRIGHT LYING. > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of > the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much.

This is PRECIOUS… We’ll SEE EXACTLY what kind of INFORMATION you respect… They include: Amy Dahl, "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG, Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears" INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES. >  Diane Blackman,

She admits she doesn’t know enough about training to edit the VICIOUS and ERRONEOUS links on her web page. She’s taken the title "Master of Decpetion" by default. She comes close to lying, but hasn’t actually been DIRECT enought to get BAGGED, as you did, lying doc. She day boards her dogs because they are not trustworthy at home alone, and has had a dog for five years who’s relentlessly pulled on lead, DESPITE the neat little knitted cover-up for her pronged choke collar, so her PALS don’t see what she does to her dogs. > jdoee, J

Said to lyingdogDUMMY: "I was trying to learn something from your posts." "My on the job persona would be incompetent as a dog keeper." jdoee and Stacey Dog >.janet Boss,

See the thread "interested in hearing," where she overlooks TWO shock containment systems that made the dog aggressive. Her solution for all aggression problesm is to jerk and choke the dog on pronged choke collars and confine the dog to a crate when you are not able to sufficiently jerk and choke the dog…As an aside, our Gang Of Thugs consensus of opinion was "KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR." > Susan Fraser,

She HURTS dogs to train them, and says it doesn’t HURT. > Avrama Gingold,

"Chin cuff" does not mean HIT the dog." She got her own front teeth knocked down her throat because of jerking her dog and making it look like an accident. The dog LEARNED to HURT her AND make it LOOK like an accident, as he was TAUGHT. That’s allelomimetic behavior AT IT’S BEST. > Lynn "I LOVE KOEHLER," Kosmakos,

"I LOVE KOEHLER." Says it all for me…, writes for a new foster care dog:  "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and  pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it.  When he barks, use the line for a correction." Says "I think an electric fence would be appropriate" for a new puppy owner. . > Bob Maida,

"Don’t let him do that," and "killfile Jerry Howe"… He’s NEVER given any training advice here, and even referred a LIVE CUSTOMER to ANOTHER TRAINER who’s got "more experience" with dog/dog aggression… boob’s only been in this RACKET for thirty years…he was AFRAID that carol would come back here and tell us HE said to jerk, choke, and HANG, her dog. He says he recommends his "students" read cindymooreon’s web site, and they LEARN a lot from her…(This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) > Cindy Tittle Moore,

Ah yes. cindymooreon. She’s been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow her to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. She believes ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… She’ll twist and pinch ears and toes as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work, because it SATISFIES her EGO. She’s a classic sadist, eh doc? Huh? Eh? Huh? Huh? > Denna Pace,

"There’s much wisdom in koehler." (Her dogs run away from home.) Says it all for me. > John Richardson,

He’ll killl any pit bull who growls at a human. No second chances here. He’s a pit bull libertarian, and KILLS aggressive pit dogs to PROTECT the good reputation of the breed. > Ludwig Smith,

"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. > Jane Webb,

She "trains the come command with positive reinforcement," and "PROOFS IT" with the shock collar. > and Terri Willis.

Yes, our psychoclown: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are  raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. > Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of >                http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer

Next, maybe we’ll talk about "dr. p" of your university??? Your pal, Jerry. P.S. Is your dog still masturbating on the couch pillows? I do believe that’s an anxiety relief mechanism, a result of punishment and confinement. j;~} P.P.S. You endorse koehler, don’t you?  Here’s koehler’s advice for chewing stuff. It may work with cornbread: William Koehler "The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training" page 185-186 "Select a food that you like exceptionally well, cram your mouth full of it, and hold it there for a while without chewing.  In a surprisingly short time, you will experience a gagging sensation and will want to empty your mouth-not by swallowing, either.  This gagging sensation

… read more »

Response:

>snip

My what a prissy little fudgepacker you are.

Response:

Lots of people were happy to advise her. She just didn’t like the responses she was getting.  She expected everyone to ok the animal’s behavior because it is a DOG. I can’t imagine what kind of home life this family experiences with this mom’s impulsive and juvenile choices.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!!  I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having.  Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.  And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. > [snip] > Sherri, > There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group.  But > you posted a pretty tough question.  I suspect lots of us have > ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but > do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a > dangerous/destructive situation such as you described. > IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get > rid of the dog."  But it is really a personal decision how > committed you are to keeping, managing, and attempting to > rehabilitate this animal.  Beyond that, *I* sure have no > advice for you; I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving > that way before. > What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this > newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case > there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who > can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions > for this one. > — > Amy Frost Dahl   Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370    (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)

Response:

Hello Rachel,

> Hi I have a 6 month old bc bitch, my 5th bc so far, so im not new to > the breed and its demands BUT i have a couple of problems with > this one.  She has badly torn the ligaments in her shoulder and is on > 6 weeks rest ( slow lead walking only and supervision in the garden) > I still take her out in the car so give her a change of scenery and > spend quality time with her, playing mind games!  She has begun to > show nervous aggression towards humans, mainly women and > children.  I have never had this problem with my other bc’s although > i know it can be common, ive always felt lucky to have such > freindly happy dogs, but ginny is causing me some concern.

There could be several things you are doing to contribute to the aggression. Properly handling the lead will help prevent you overstimulating the dog by trying to restrict her from making any aggressive moves… learning to interrupt her thoughts using sound distraction and praise techniques will extinguish her aggressive behavior. > As she is on rest, i cannot take her out for socialisation, so she is not > gaining the expreience my other dogs had

If she’s able to walk, she’s able to go out to be socialized. There are no aspects of obedience and behavior modification that cannot be addressed due to minor physical limitations… unless thinking about the behavior causes undue physical stress. > characteristic of the breed, but im worried that this will develop into > an obsession.

You’d better work on it. > In every other way she is the typical bc that attracts me to the > breed in the first place.  I want to get this in hand before it develops > into a major problem.  I would appreciate any advice from owners > who have had similar expriences. )

I suspect your dilemma is more the methods you depend on for training your dogs, rather than the dog’s infirmity. It is rare that a physical impairment interferes with training, if it’s done properly. You can get all the information you need to properly handle and train your dog from the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com > Thanks > Rachel B

                                            caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

: I have a 6 month old bc bitch, my 5th bc so far, so im not new to the breed : and its demands BUT i have a couple of problems with this one.  She has : badly torn the ligaments in her shoulder and is on 6 weeks rest ( slow lead : walking only and supervision in the garden)  I still take her out in the car : so give her a change of scenery and spend quality time with her, playing : mind games!  She has begun to show nervous aggression towards humans, mainly : women and children.   By "nervous aggression," what do you mean? Is she growling? Snapping? Biting? And under what circumstances? Is the pain of the injury perhaps making her grumpy? Or perhaps just the fact that she’s not being allowed to exercise, and is building up a lot of nervous energy? Enforced rest can be very hard on a BC’s state of mind. Did she start doing that before she was on enforced rest? I have never had this problem with my other bc’s : although i know it can be common, ive always felt lucky to have such : freindly happy dogs, but ginny is causing me some concern.  As she is on : rest, i cannot take her out for socialisation, so she is not gaining the : expreience my other dogs had.   How much socialization did she get *before* the injury – especially with women and children? BCs aren’t normally great kids’ dogs – as I’m sure you know, they’re too stimulated by quick movements and loud noises. To be good with kids, BCs need to be *very* well-socialized with them from the time they’re very young. In any case, the time from 8 weeks up to 4 months was a more important period for socialization, anyway. If she was very well-socialized then, she may very well just be going through a normal fear period right now and, with continued socialization, will probably come out of it. You can still socialize her with people, even if she has to remain quiet. Bring people to your house, and have them give her treats. If she’s nervous about them, have them sit on the floor and quiet hold the treats out to her, and allow her to approach them. She is also a mummies girl, which i know is : characteristic of the breed, but im worried that this will develop into an : obsession.   How much do you encourage it? Actually, the BCs I know tend to be an independent lot until they’re quite mature (even middle-aged), who will go with anyone willing to toss a ball or take them to sheep. I think I’d talk to her vet first, to see if he thinks pain might be affecting the way she interacts with people. And then I’d find someone who’s very good at dog behavior, and do a consultation. Good luck. I hope this 6 weeks passes *very* quickly! April with Levi, Caper, and Epic, the Border Collie Hurricanes

Response:

Your dog has inappropriate human aggression. It seems that you are making excuses, and hiding from this fact by making excuses for her. The truth is there is NO excuse good enough for child aggression,or any other unprovoked aggression toward humans.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi > I have a 6 month old bc bitch, my 5th bc so far, so im not new to the breed > and its demands BUT i have a couple of problems with this one.  She has > badly torn the ligaments in her shoulder and is on 6 weeks rest ( slow lead > walking only and supervision in the garden)  I still take her out in the car > so give her a change of scenery and spend quality time with her, playing > mind games!  She has begun to show nervous aggression towards humans, mainly > women and children.  I have never had this problem with my other bc’s > although i know it can be common, ive always felt lucky to have such > freindly happy dogs, but ginny is causing me some concern.  As she is on > rest, i cannot take her out for socialisation, so she is not gaining the > expreience my other dogs had.  She is also a mummies girl, which i know is > characteristic of the breed, but im worried that this will develop into an > obsession.  In every other way she is the typical bc that attracts me to the > breed in the first place.  I want to get this in hand before it develops > into a major problem.  I would appreciate any advice from owners who have > had similar expriences. ) > Thanks > Rachel B

Response:

>I have a 6 month old bc bitch, my 5th bc so far, so im not new to the breed >and its demands BUT i have a couple of problems with this one.  She has >badly torn the ligaments in her shoulder and is on 6 weeks rest ( slow lead >walking only and supervision in the garden)

How much longer is she supposed to rest?  Ask your vet if there are some activities you can do that will help her use some energy.  In my opinion, she has cabin fever and is going crazy because she can’t expend all the energy that is balled up inside her. Surely there are some exercises the vet can recommend that will help your dog feel more useful.  Let me know what you find out. Pam

Response:

Hi I have a 6 month old bc bitch, my 5th bc so far, so im not new to the breed and its demands BUT i have a couple of problems with this one.  She has badly torn the ligaments in her shoulder and is on 6 weeks rest ( slow lead walking only and supervision in the garden)  I still take her out in the car so give her a change of scenery and spend quality time with her, playing mind games!  She has begun to show nervous aggression towards humans, mainly women and children.  I have never had this problem with my other bc’s although i know it can be common, ive always felt lucky to have such freindly happy dogs, but ginny is causing me some concern.  As she is on rest, i cannot take her out for socialisation, so she is not gaining the expreience my other dogs had.  She is also a mummies girl, which i know is characteristic of the breed, but im worried that this will develop into an obsession.  In every other way she is the typical bc that attracts me to the breed in the first place.  I want to get this in hand before it develops into a major problem.  I would appreciate any advice from owners who have had similar expriences. ) Thanks Rachel B

Response:

No one is arguing that dogs are instinctively protective. Your descriptions, however, indicate that she is not being aggressive from protection instincts, but from fear. This is a very different type of aggression – protectiveness can be controlled, but it is much more difficult to control fear. A dog that barks when a visitor comes to the house, but settles down when the owner indicates that the visitor is allowed and either accepts or ignores the visitor is one thing; a dog that continues agressive behavior to visitors is dangerous. If you are aware that your dog may become aggressive in certain situations (the person play-hitting you, for example) then you need to keep the dog out of that situation before it escalates. What if you have the dog in your shop and some children come in and hit each other? How do you know that this dog won’t be triggered by that action and attack? No one is saying you need to euthanize your dog; they are trying to make you aware of the seriousness of the situation before something tragic occurs. Christy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a > few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her > and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying > is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we > would not have very many dogs in the world. > Keri

Response:

I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we would not have very many dogs in the world. Keri

Response:

Very well written, MaryBeth.  Your sincerity in caring about  this dog really shows. Carol

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has >come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, >but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit >about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than >wrong, and get help. >    Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. >In all sincerity for your dog, >MaryBeth

Response:

> She is in training.

    *Training* is a totally different subject. Has nothing to do with aggressive/submissive behavior problems. Well, not in the way you’ve explained her training. Going to regular training classes is not the same thing as seeing a behaviorist.     Someone needs to see your dog do this ‘near biting’, and see why she does it, and what you can do to help. There’s already been many ppl like you that come here, and think it’s *really* not that big of a deal, and eventually wind up with a dead dog. I REALLY don’t want that to happen to you. And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I > knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked > something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but > she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same > thing.

    What exactly *stopped* her from biting? Did you stop her, or did she stop herself?     My friends, and even children can come to my home and do many many things not only to me, but to my dogs, and NADA, ZIPPO response, other than wanting to join in the fun. Then again, I have a golden, a black lab, and a lab mix.     You have an Akita, a wonderful animal, and one that you SAY you love as a child. I am the same way about mine. I am not jumping on you, I’m trying to get you to open your eyes here. Your Akita is a breed known for having a totally different temperament than mine. Please don’t lose your dog, out of some sort of false sense of pride, in a newsgroup.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said > earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when > something happens to a child.

    You seem to be thinking we’re against your dog here. We aren’t. We all LOVE our dogs, and try to help ANYONE save their dogs. Your dog is a bite waiting to happen.     **Don’t be defensive, when it’s your dog’s life at stake here, not your ego, PLEASE.**     Think long and hard about that last sentence I just wrote. Go to bed thinking about it. Wake up thinking about it, then get back to us. Don’t just read this and fly off the handle and attack me. I KNOW you most likely will want to, by the time you finish reading this. But THINK, then post tomorrow with your feelings. But while thinking, keep that dog at the front of it all.     We’re talking to you about a dog that has threatened to BITE three ppl. This isn’t *cute* or even submissive, it’s AGGRESSIVE, be it fear based or not, and you’re in deep denial if you don’t believe she’s going to bite soon, and doesn’t need a pro behaviorist.     I could care less if your feelings are hurt, it’s not my *intention*, at all, sincerely it isn’t but I DO care about your dog’s life. It’s time for *you* to get serious. Well we need to look at the whole situation and > see why a dog did what it did.

    *YOU* may look at it that way, but trust me, the police aren’t going to see a playful pup. Neither will the parents of a wandering child, or anyone that happens to set her off. You still don’t know exactly why she did it, you are guessing at it being protection. Most likely it is.     But I know enough from your posts, you don’t know how to handle it. And none of us that are serious about our dogs, would EVER think that this behavior isn’t something to be taken very seriously.     Now take what you said right above this, about looking at the whole situation, and go to a behaviorist with that *very* sentence. Get help. No one here can possilby help you, no matter what they promise. And it won’t be you or your b/f that pays in the end, it will be your beloved pet. (((  By the way here in my hometown I would not have > to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.

    OH, HOW LUCKY THEN !!!!!     THREE WHOLE CHANCES !!!!     Jeeeze Louise, woman !!!!     What are you *thinking*????     And, yes I am being extremely sarcastic and snippy, but *only* to get your attention.     So you don’t have to put her down until she bites THREE times? THINK AGAIN.     If she rips the face off of a child, or anyone, you WILL have to, trust me. Those ppl will make sure of it. Law or no law. It can be done.     I’ll tell you one thing, if it bit my child’s face, seriously damaged MY child, and you thought you’d have two more chances, you’d be sadly mistaken. I’d take that dog and shoot it myself. You can be pretty sure more ppl would feel the same way.     I would make sure that dog was put down, and not only sue you for the damages, physical, mental and emotional, but if I found out you KNEW that she had any proclivity to bite, and didn’t do anything???? Wake up and smell the anal glands here, girlfriend !!!! As far as my bf goes > well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure > he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he > would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every > opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know > she did not like what he was doing and never bit him.

    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than wrong, and get help.     Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. In all sincerity for your dog, MaryBeth

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> But like I said denial no I dont >think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit >anyone.

<sigh>  She’s never bitten anyone, but she has the POTENTIAL. Fear aggression is a very serious and dangerous thing.

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She goes to training classes but since the shop is mine after and before training classes she is free of the shop and she usually just lays down and does not bother a soul.  So there are many different people in and out of the shop everyday.  I think it is a dogs nature to be protective of their owner.   Keri

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>Like I said >earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when >something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation >and >see why a dog did what it did.  

This is true, but you’re ignoring that the law doesn’t rationalize with angry parents. It usually sides with them, and the losers are you and your dog. Nevermind the potential lawsuits. Why are you so hell bent against seeing a behaviourist? You did come here to get advice, and that’s the advice you’ve been given.  No one’s arguing with you about your dog, they’re pleading with you to help it before something unimaginable happens. I agree with them. See a behaviourist.

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Kate, Thanks I may try that. I cant take her to parks around here because all the parks do not allow dogs. Keri

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She is in training.  And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same thing.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation and see why a dog did what it did.  By the way here in my hometown I would not have to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.  As far as my bf goes well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know she did not like what he was doing and never bit him. Keri

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>and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I >guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids.

I have both kids and dogs.  And I also live in a neighborhood where very young children roam around.  Now, of course it’s the parents responsiblity to keep an eye on their kids, but unfortunetly, not all do.  Does this mean my dog has a right to bite a 3 or 4 year old that may wander into my yard?  No!  It’s not the childs fault he has irrepsonsible parents, and it is my fault for whatever my dog does. I personally would rip the head off of a dog with my teeth if it bit my child for no reason.   >You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I >like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.  

You may not like people or children, but that excuse will not hold up in court when you are being sued by someone. You have an Akita, which are not for the inexperienced dog owner. Unfortunately, some Akita’s have horrid temperments.  I had one in many of my classes, from puppy class on.  As she got older, she got more aggressive towards other dogs (which is normal for the breed) but also people.  At 10 months of age she tried to go through the backyard fence to get to the 6 year old child playing in his yard.  She was euthanized.  Her owner was also informed by a knowledeable breeder that that type of temperement was not the norm, and was dangerous. See a behaviorist, maybe she is workable. But if she isn’t, think very carefully about the decisions you make.  Good luck Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

Response:

Take it gradually.  She seems to be very nervous and jealous.  Make sure that you do not exclude her when you are with your boyfriend.  Give her a place to hide (under a table – corner of a room) if she needs to.  My daughters dog had the same problem and through lots of love he has gained confidence.  Try to sit with your boyfriend when he pats her – so that she knows you approve.  I am sure things will work out eventually.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

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Sugarwhitemike1, Denial?  I dont quite understand what you are saying.  She has never bit anyone and the only times she has tried and made her presents known is when there was someone in the house that was aggressive towards me.  She thought she was protecting me.  Yes I know Akitas are known for their "reputation" but I think most dogs protect their owner.  As far as her hurting a child I never said I wanted that to happen and that is the reason she is supervised.  She has not really given me a reason to think she would hurt someone unless provoked.  I have many young  brothers and sisters who come over and she never messes with them.  And as far as the 6 yr old scaling my fence maybe I put it the wrong way but I dont feel it is right that you would put a dog to sleep when it is in its own yard minding its own business and some parent is not keeping an eye on their kid.  I think a lot of the problems are that people look at dogs as "just" dogs.  For many people they are much more than that.  And Im sure all of you feel that they are much more than dogs as well or why else would you always be doing research and talking about them.  But like I said denial no I dont think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit anyone. Keri

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That’s not socialization.  Socialization means direct interaction with strangers of all kinds–different races, ages, sexes, and behaviors. Training class is *NOT* socialization–it is training.  Socialization is an ongoing process that you do all the time with the dog. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit. > Keri

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Sounds like some one is in denial. The classic case of my child can do no wrong.

Response:

> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.

    What stopped her from biting?     THAT is an important question.     If a dog is aggressive enough to *try* to bite, it’s only a matter of time until it does. The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit.

    This is great. But the fact remains that you have a dog that is GOING to bite one of these days. No one here on the group, or the net can tell you how to change that, without seeing the dog in person.     If you have all of these facilities available, have you talked to the trainer there about this? If so, what did they say? If they either don’t think it’s that much of a problem, or don’t know how to help, you need to get another person to do it.     Trust me Keri, I have three dogs, and I love them all, but my golden, Rudy, is my *soulmate*, I LOVE this dog, and I have no children, so I know how you feel about it. But all that doesn’t make a hill of beans, when it comes to the dog eventually making contact, and biting. In fact it would make *me* more prone to find pro help ASAP. If the dog goes after your b/f, and KNOWS him, what about a child that comes onto your property? MaryBeth

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I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

    Ummmm, unfortunately, YES you will.     Even if the child comes into your yard. And many places will go harder on you *especially* if you have a sign on your fence. Shows knowledge of dog’s aggressive behavior. So if anyone, child/robber/neighbor is harmed by your dog, you WILL put her down. You won’t have a choice. And above all of that, you can be sued for mucho $$.     I’d listen to Emily, and get this dog some pro training. "In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake"     Exactly what did she do to make you think she was protecting you? What was your b/f doing, exactly? And what happened?     Your dog has a behavior problem that you can not find help for on a newsgroup, nor on the web. You need to see someone in person, or you’re going to be very very sorry that you didn’t, one day. You’ve already talked to a breeder about it, and they warned you.     What happens if some neighbor’s child gets into your yard, and she rips her face off?     And you have to put her down?     And you get sued for the damages?     How in the world will you feel, if you already know NOW that she has a problem and you don’t do something?     How will you feel about the child?     And how will you feel about your beloved dog being put down? MaryBeth

Response:

>I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she >has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we >have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same >location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is >also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has >been socialized quite a bit. >Keri

Nope, sorry, this is just a normal or reduced amount of socialisation….. taking your dog to a busy walkway/park/mall with *many* different strangers per hour is socialisation this type of socialisation you are talking about is *territory mine* socialisation….. the dog needs to be in *unknown* or *neutral* territory for *lots* of socialisation looking forward to other opinions kate

Response:

I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has been socialized quite a bit. Keri

Response:

My point was simply that if you are unwilling to work with this dog, then it is very irresponsible to keep it.  Obviously you’re willing to work with her, or you wouldn’t be here, but the idea of euthanization should never be a surprise when you have an aggressive dog on your hand.  Not everyone is as responsible as you seem to be, and all it takes is one stupid parent to get your dog killed. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so. I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around. > Keri

Response:

> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

If your dog bites someone’s child you *will* put the dog down because most likely animal control and the courts and everything will be involved and you will have no choice.   In this area I think dogs get two or three bites before they are killed.   It doesn’t make the least difference if it is the person’s fault and not the dog’s fault.   I think that’s why they give the dog more than one chance, though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.

 How do you propose to simutaneously socialize her and keep her from the possibility of biting someone?   Never, never let her around children?   Never let her around men?  That’s not very socialized. > I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around.

I know the idea must be beyond horrible for you.   You *love* this dog.   She is a wonderful dog.   I don’t doubt it in the least.   But listen to the people who have suggested taking her to a dog behaviorist. They know a lot about dogs and about what you are going through and what will happen if your dog becomes a fear biter.   It doesn’t mean that your dog is a bad dog, or viscious or anything like that.  But if she bites anyone (or three anyones) it won’t matter *why* she bit them.    Don’t doubt at all that the people who have mentioned the possible eventuality of euthanizing her understand just how painful that would be.   No one wants that to happen.   People will try to help just as much as they can so it doesn’t happen. –Julie

Response:

Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to euth her.  She is basically my child. Keri

Response:

> Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only > outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced > back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to > euth her.  She is basically my child.

I never mentioned anything about her getting out.  She may very well be your "child" but that does not mean it’s acceptable to have this dog in your home if she is this aggressive.  (What happens when she gets your boyfriend good? Or when you have guests over?  Or when a 6 year old scales your fence?)  As I said, you need to work with a behaviorist experienced with Akitas, because they are very difficult dogs to work with.  This is a very severe situation and it needs to be repaired as quickly as possible. ~Emily

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I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.  I think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing she does not just go after people walking around. Keri

Response:

Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. Thanks, Keri

Response:

Akitas are generally difficult dogs anyways, and I would strongly suggest against getting them to anyone bothering to read this besides the poster, unless you are VERY experienced with dogs. Besides that, you need to see a behaviorist.  I can not read this dog’s language through a post to usenet, Akitas are generally difficult to work with anyways unless you’re very experienced with nordics in general and Akitas in particular (which I’m neither) and you’ve got a very serious problem on your hands.  Yes, submissive dogs can become fear biters.  Yes, you possibly have both.  Yes, it is very important to fix this problem before you are forced to euth her. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

Response:

 You’re mistaken. I’m not a trainer.  I occasionally offer suggestions in cases of dog management. Also, in cases where someone is likely to be heading into legal trouble, I’ll sometimes point that out. WHY do I mention it if someone is heading for trouble? While it may be true that I do not gush sentiment, I’m quite compassionate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Barbara, >What really matters here is that you lost you beloved friend, your dog.  It >is very sad and my heart aches for you.  As far as Elaine Gallant goes, she >came from the dog behavior group, or as I call it, the dog abused group. >Her and Jerry Howe call themselves trainers.  The two of them and quite a >few others, never had anything nice or compaionate to say.  Only cold >heartless answers.  The health group used to be a nice place to seek advice >or a kind word when you were worried or sad about your pet.  It seems to >have changed by some cruel, cold heartless people.  There are some nice >people on this group and very comforting thoughts with come up.  Never mind >the odd balls.  Whenever someone opens their mouth, they give themselves >away.  And don’t worry about your spelling or anything else.  The ones that >could probably help you, or that you would want to hear from, understood >completely what was wrong.  I speak and write different languages, so my >spelling is not always great.  The real issue here is you lost your dog and >great for stopping payment on that cheque.  Have a nice day.  Regards, >Maureen > Thank All The Kind People That Understands With A Heart Who Cares And Im > Sorry For All The People That Went CROSSEYE Just Click Off Dont Mess UP > Your Eyes Because Your Eyes Are The Only Thing That Works Because Your > Heart Has Ice Water IM not smart but in very sad ad my warm heart is > broke so STOP makeing people who feel bad more sad be kind to some one > just once in your life you will forget all the little things you may > start b looking in a mirrow  at your nasty self  try not to push little > http://community.webtv.net/junejohn/TOMMYHAMMANS

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> Well making people headachy and naseous trying to follow your stuff is not > compassionate. Especially when people get sick, and she tells injured > readers

    <snip>     This post has got to be up for some kind of award !!     YOU?     INJURED?????     Gimme a break.     Just don’t read the posts if you’re caused so much physical ANGUISH. MaryBeth <offering to let Elame feel her constant knee pain, for 5 minutes, so she can feel what REAL injury is like> SHHHEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSHHH

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Elaine ENOUGH PLEASE!  The dog is dead let it lie. Sue E & Desi

Response:

Jennifer, I agree with you wholeheartedly. In the grand scheme of things punctuation, spelling, and grammar won’t matter one bit.   Compassion, thoughtfulness and how we treat our fellow man is what it’s all about. I don’t know what was so hard about reading Barbara’s posts.  I understood exactly what she was saying and feel very sorry for her pain. As far as Ken’s remark regarding webtv subscribers….that was completely ridiculous.  I have a computer and webtv and usually prefer the webtv for most things.  Stereotyping is not a nice thing either.  Is it? ~Kathy~

Response:

>  So you still feel that punctuation and paragraphs are too good for us. > Hey, I’m getting more sympathetic toward you by the minute.

    Jeeeeeze Elaine, give ehr a break, she just lost her dog. You never cease to amaze me. MaryBeth <changing the topic, let’s take the debate off of her thread>

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> Barbara, > What really matters here is that you lost you beloved friend, your dog. It > is very sad and my heart aches for you.  As far as Elaine Gallant goes,

    For anyone NOT wanting to read her, know that your computer has an option of deleting her posts.     Check with your newsreader and follow directions to either ‘filter’ or ‘killfile’ posters or threads, with certain words in them. MaryBeth Here’s a helpful post on the differing newsreader’s killfiles……how to: Reposted by popular demand: Most, though not all, newsreaders enable you to automatically mark certain posts or threads as read. This is usually referred to as a killfile or a filter. Instructions on how to create a killfile for some of the more common newsreaders are below. If yours isn’t listed, try looking in your browser under "help." Disclaimer: These instructions have been compiled from a variety of sources. I only use rn myself so if the instructions below can’t help you, I can’t either. Conversely, if you have any additions or corrections to this list, please feel free to email me at reposted. Many, many thanks to everyone who’s contributed!–Dianne AGENT    Pull down the ‘Window’ on the Menu. Go to Usenet Filters and click on    that.    The first icon on the toolbox should be to ‘Add Kill Filter’. Click    on that.    The edit window will come up. In the area ‘Filter Expression’, write    ’Jerry Howe’. And then under ‘Kill Action’, mark whatever little    button you want. AOL 5.0 (note: versions prior to 5.0 lack killfiles)    From the newsgroups window, choose preferences and a window will open    that says, "Global newsgroup preferences." Click on the filtering    tab (there should be filtering, viewing, and posting tabs). Select    filter type from the pulldown menu. Enter the filter in the text field    below the pulldown menu. Then click on the "add filter" button below    the text field. Then click "save" at the bottom of the page, and    you’re done. FREE AGENT    Regrettably, Free Agent does not have a filter feature. Shell out    the few bucks for the upgrade; I’m told you won’t regret it. MT NEWSREADER FOR THE MAC:    Lets you killfile in a large number of ways. When a window showing    one article is foremost (and when an article is highlighted in a window    showing the list of articles for a group), a couple of entries on the    ’Filter’ submenu of the Edit menu are enabled. These are ‘Filter this    author…’ and ‘Filter this subject…’, which create author or subject    filters for the active articles respectively. NETSCAPE COMMUNICATOR    Under the Edit Menu, choose the Message Filters… command.    In the resulting dialog box, click the New button to define a new    filter. Give the filter a name, like "Filter Jerry."    Set the criteria for the filter. For example, "sender is Jerry Howe"    or "subject contains lying".    Select what to do with filtered messages (delete, ignore, etc…)    Click OK. You may have to disconnect and reconnect for it to take    effect. OUTLOOK EXPRESS 5.0    Go to the toolbar at the top of any post written by the person you    wish to banish from your computer. Click on "Message"; then, on the    drop-down menu, click on "Block Sender". RN & TRN    To create a global killfile in either of these newsreaders, create a    file in your News directory called KILL (this must be in all capital    letters). Use any text editor to enter the following line into it:    newsgroup you read. X-NEWS    When reading an article, press ‘k’ to add the poster to the plonk    file. It will then ask you for an expiration period – 100 days is    the default.  If you want a person permanently zapped, change "100"    to "0".

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Jennifer, I agree with you wholeheartedly. In the grand scheme of things punctuation, spelling, and grammar won’t matter one bit. Compassion, thoughtfulness and how we treat our fellow man is what it’s all about. Well making people headachy and naseous trying to follow your stuff is not compassionate. Especially when people get sick, and she tells injured readers to go fuck themselves. I don’t know what was so hard about reading Barbara’s posts.  I understood exactly what she was saying and feel very sorry for her pain. As far as Ken’s remark regarding webtv subscribers….that was completely ridiculous.  I have a computer and webtv and usually prefer the webtv for most things.  Stereotyping is not a nice thing either.  Is it? ~Kathy~

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Just let it go.  She lost her dog and all she came here for was some sympathy.  As I understand it, it is bad netiquette to point out someones spelling and grammer errors.  She has e-mailed me with some nice thank-yous. Because I have been polite.  Now please lets just leave now. Thank-you Sue E. & Desi

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> why

are you the only criticizing bitch in this forum? Do you think that your opinion matters?  I guarantee that my response would be sweeter if you didn’t make me look like a criticizing bitch who’s opinion didn’t matter rather than just a reader who got a headache trying to figure out what was this chick way trying to say.

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If you have a problem reading her posts, then don’t read them.  Just drop it. Sue E. & Desi

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Barbara, What really matters here is that you lost you beloved friend, your dog.  It is very sad and my heart aches for you.  As far as Elaine Gallant goes, she came from the dog behavior group, or as I call it, the dog abused group. Her and Jerry Howe call themselves trainers.  The two of them and quite a few others, never had anything nice or compaionate to say.  Only cold heartless answers.  The health group used to be a nice place to seek advice or a kind word when you were worried or sad about your pet.  It seems to have changed by some cruel, cold heartless people.  There are some nice people on this group and very comforting thoughts with come up.  Never mind the odd balls.  Whenever someone opens their mouth, they give themselves away.  And don’t worry about your spelling or anything else.  The ones that could probably help you, or that you would want to hear from, understood completely what was wrong.  I speak and write different languages, so my spelling is not always great.  The real issue here is you lost your dog and great for stopping payment on that cheque.  Have a nice day.  Regards, Maureen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Thank All The Kind People That Understands With A Heart Who Cares And Im > Sorry For All The People That Went CROSSEYE Just Click Off Dont Mess UP > Your Eyes Because Your Eyes Are The Only Thing That Works Because Your > Heart Has Ice Water IM not smart but in very sad ad my warm heart is > broke so STOP makeing people who feel bad more sad be kind to some one > just once in your life you will forget all the little things you may > start b looking in a mirrow  at your nasty self  try not to push little > http://community.webtv.net/junejohn/TOMMYHAMMANS

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I have just recently started posting in this NG and am completely disgusted by the reaction that some people have towards people that are greiving a loss. It’s OBVIOUS that she is here because she needs support right now. It may be hard to read but can’t we just try to read it and respond in a POSITIVE way!   Hey Elaine, If you don’t like her punctuation why do you keep opening up her posts and trying to read them. Noone here has to try to read it if they don’t want to. Some people have nicely said that it is hard to read or asked others what is says but why are you the only criticizing bitch in this forum? Do you think that your opinion matters? I believe not to many who have read all the insensitivley rude things you have said. Which includes me. Why don’t you try responding with compassion. Atleast act like you care. I’m sure that most people in this news group want to hear from someone that does or atleast seems to care about others feelings. If anyone does’t agree that this lady (rude witch) Elaine is the most uncompassionate bitch in this NG please respond! Does anyone care to hear the many opinions she has? Why don’t we ignore this troll? Who is she? What experience with animals does she have? Is she a licensed vet? Who the hell does she think she is giving this advice and being so damn rude! DID ANYONE EVER TEACH ELAINE THAT SOME THINGS ARE BETTER LEFT UNSAID!! Elaine, I have been here only a week tops and I don’t like your attitude! You stink! Go the hell away TROLL!!!!!

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 So you still feel that punctuation and paragraphs are too good for us. Hey, I’m getting more sympathetic toward you by the minute.

Thank All The Kind People That Understands With A Heart Who Cares And Im Sorry For All The People That Went CROSSEYE Just Click Off Dont Mess UP Your Eyes Because Your Eyes Are The Only Thing That Works Because Your Heart Has Ice Water IM not smart but in very sad ad my warm heart is broke so STOP makeing people who feel bad more sad be kind to some one just once in your life you will forget all the little things you may start b looking in a mirrow  at your nasty self  try not to push little http://community.webtv.net/junejohn/TOMMYHAMMANS

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Thank All The Kind People That Understands With A Heart Who Cares And Im Sorry For All The People That Went CROSSEYE Just Click Off Dont Mess UP Your Eyes Because Your Eyes Are The Only Thing That Works Because Your Heart Has Ice Water IM not smart but in very sad ad my warm heart is broke so STOP makeing people who feel bad more sad be kind to some one just once in your life you will forget all the little things you may start b looking in a mirrow  at your nasty self  try not to push little http://community.webtv.net/junejohn/TOMMYHAMMANS

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Many dogs go through a ‘false pregnancy’ when they are spayed at a particular point in their heat cycle  due to the hormonal changes the removal of the ovaries causes. Your dog is acting like she has had a litter and must ‘guard’ them – IMO it is great that you spayed her as this temperament should not be passed on if you can avoid doing so Some things that may help her 500mg of vitamin C broken in half and given twice a day – this does wonders with new moms to calm them you should see a difference in about 20-30 minutes – this will do no harm and extra will be excreted in her urine if unused – even though she has no real pups the calming effect should still be there If she growls do not act alarmed or frightened but instead tell her she is ‘being silly’ and laugh at her then turn and ignore her and act like you are having fun without her – if she likes toys this is pretty easy to do Ask your vet for advice on this – see if there is anything she can be given to shorten the hormonal disruption Time will cure it as her hormones stabilize – try not to push anything into becoming a learned behavior above and beyond the instincts being acted upon so that when she is feeling better she won’t have any bad habits to work around Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Our year old Springer has just undergone a personality change following a >hysterectomy.  She now adopts toys and treats them as puppies, won’t come >out of her crate, is growing and warning at anyone who tries to entice her >out and is generally being a bit scary. >Up to this point she has been a beautifully behaved little thing and we wnt >to wrk with her to resolve this.  Anyone else come across this sort of >thing/have any advice ? >Thanks !!

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That’s what happens when you spay a female dog.  they take out the reproductive organs (instead of tying tubes) Suz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > May I ask why the dog had a hysterectomy? > Gloria

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Gloria, that’s what a spay procedure is….. Lois E. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> May I ask why the dog had a hysterectomy? > Gloria > Our year old Springer has just undergone a personality change following a > hysterectomy.  She now adopts toys and treats them as puppies, won’t come > out of her crate, is growing and warning at anyone who tries to entice her > out and is generally being a bit scary. > Up to this point she has been a beautifully behaved little thing and we wnt > to wrk with her to resolve this.  Anyone else come across this sort of > thing/have any advice ? > Thanks !!

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SNIP Jerry’s sour grapes and whine because Cindy won’t allow her site to be linked to his….. Lois E.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Our year old Springer has just undergone a personality change following a >hysterectomy.

This is for those of you who do nothing but bicker endlessly about who knows more about dog behavior.  How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?  I believe I heard Rush say the other day that the people on the far left and the far right are the only ones we ever hear from. He is absolutely right. I’m kind of an in the middle person, I don’t know everything, but i do know enough to sit back and thoroughly enjoy watching you people make asses of yourselves.  Too bad, this could be a pretty good forum.  If ya ask me, credentials and expertise aside, you’re all full of shit!!!!

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> Too bad, this could be a pretty good forum.

I agree with you. Why not do your part to improve this newsgroup  by unsubscribing?  Lack of manners, uncivility, and insults is not a good way to fo through life.

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> This is for those of you who do nothing but bicker endlessly about who knows > more about dog behavior.

Untrue. A lot of good advice can be obtained here. >  How can you expect anyone to take you seriously?

I don’t know. Why don’t you tell us? >  I believe I heard Rush say the other day that the people on the far left > and the far right are the only ones we ever hear from. He is absolutely > right.

Great. Why don’t you listen to him some more and go away. > I’m kind of an in the middle person, I don’t know everything, but i > do know enough to sit back and thoroughly enjoy watching you people make > asses of yourselves.

A middle-person?  You like to sit on the fence? Great… society can always use someone like you. >  Too bad, this could be a pretty good forum.

Forum for what? Please provide details… unless you prefer to make your usual pedantic and insipid remarks. >  If ya ask me, credentials and expertise aside, you’re all full of

shit!!!! Ahh…. vulgarity. You must have been captain of your high school debate team…. assuming of course you ever made it to high school.

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:I’m kind of an in the middle person, … :If ya ask me, credentials and expertise :aside, you’re all full of [expletive deleted]!!!! Ah, the voice of "moderation"! JohnR Pit Bull Libertarian

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God help us, are you actually quoting Rush Limbaugh? He still has an audience? I don’t know what’s scarier — that you consider yourself to be on a first name basis with him or that you’ve found him to be "absolutely right" about anything.  And you expect people to take *you* seriously? Making asses of ourselves, hmm? Perhaps we would be better served by insightful comments like "you’re all full of shit." Perhaps not… -jill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This is for those of you who do nothing but bicker endlessly about who knows > more about dog behavior. >  How can you expect anyone to take you seriously? >  I believe I heard Rush say the other day that the people on the far left > and the far right are the only ones we ever hear from. He is absolutely > right. I’m kind of an in the middle person, I don’t know everything, but i > do know enough to sit back and thoroughly enjoy watching you people make > asses of yourselves. >  Too bad, this could be a pretty good forum. >  If ya ask me, credentials and expertise aside, you’re all full of shit!!!!

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If we never hear from the middle, why are we stuck with you asshole moderates running our nation into the ground?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is for those of you who do nothing but bicker endlessly about who knows >more about dog behavior. > How can you expect anyone to take you seriously? > I believe I heard Rush say the other day that the people on the far left >and the far right are the only ones we ever hear from. He is absolutely >right. I’m kind of an in the middle person, I don’t know everything, but i >do know enough to sit back and thoroughly enjoy watching you people make >asses of yourselves. > Too bad, this could be a pretty good forum. > If ya ask me, credentials and expertise aside, you’re all full of shit!!!!

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Hello all, Ever since we got our new puppy our Aussie Luna has been a *wee bit* jealous.  She has been rather defiant as far as listening, which I can understand.  But she has become "pushy" as well.  She pushes her way into the car to go places with us etc.  Is it bad to let her go??  I’m thinking she really needs some quality alone time with her daddy, so he took her for a hike today.  Is letting her come with us when she wants to bad on our part??  And if so, is there anything we can do to let her come, but not have her push us into doing it??  Maybe make her earn it??  I just want to give her extra attention because of the puppy, but I don’t want to give her TOO much so that she knows she can get whatever she wants.  Any ideas??  Also, what is the best way to make this transition easier on her??  She growls at and reprimands the puppy for coming near her, but when we are around other dogs she tells the strangers to "get away from my puppy!"  Why would she act that way, and hate him at home??  Thanks! Lori Peters and Luna (tell her to take him back, pleeeeeease)

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First, I don’t believe she ‘hates’ the pup at home. She sounds as if she is training him and disciplining him to the ‘way things are’ but because he is a pup, also protects him from other dogs. I think you are right in worrying a bit about allowing her the time she needs but not overdoing it to the point of spoiling. Little things to remember when dealing with both dogs. She ALWAYS gets a pat FIRST. She Always gets her food First. She always gets into the Car First and not necessarily by herself. When you go for a walk or just outside, she is allowed out the door First. This is not spoiling her but showing her that her position in the household is noted. As for those pushy times. If you feel it has been earned (simple tricks in the kitchen before you leave) then make her wait until she’s calm enough to proceed to take her out. If she pushes again, stop, make her wait and then proceed again. If it is not earned and she seems to push too much because the pup might be behind her, then say "Wrong." calmly take her to a crate and put her in gently and tell her "Now think about what you are doing." Leave her for about 10 minutes and then try again. Obviously these techniques cannot be done in a rush or when you’re in a hurry to get out of the house. It could take up to an hour or more of waiting, proceeding, waiting, proceeding, crating, proceeding, etc. etc. Give yourself lots of time to get the proper message across to her. Always supervise her with the pup but don’t panic if she seems a little hard on the pup. He might deserve it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, > Ever since we got our new puppy our Aussie Luna has been a *wee bit* > jealous.  She has been rather defiant as far as listening, which I can > understand.  But she has become "pushy" as well.  She pushes her way into > the car to go places with us etc.  Is it bad to let her go??  I’m thinking > she really needs some quality alone time with her daddy, so he took her for > a hike today.  Is letting her come with us when she wants to bad on our > part??  And if so, is there anything we can do to let her come, but not have > her push us into doing it??  Maybe make her earn it??  I just want to give > her extra attention because of the puppy, but I don’t want to give her TOO > much so that she knows she can get whatever she wants.  Any ideas??  Also, > what is the best way to make this transition easier on her??  She growls at > and reprimands the puppy for coming near her, but when we are around other > dogs she tells the strangers to "get away from my puppy!"  Why would she act > that way, and hate him at home??  Thanks! > Lori Peters and Luna (tell her to take him back, pleeeeeease)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello all, >Ever since we got our new puppy our Aussie Luna has been a *wee bit* >jealous.  She has been rather defiant as far as listening, which I can >understand.  But she has become "pushy" as well.  She pushes her way into >the car to go places with us etc.  Is it bad to let her go??  I’m thinking >she really needs some quality alone time with her daddy, so he took her for >a hike today.  Is letting her come with us when she wants to bad on our >part??  And if so, is there anything we can do to let her come, but not have >her push us into doing it??  Maybe make her earn it??  I just want to give >her extra attention because of the puppy, but I don’t want to give her TOO >much so that she knows she can get whatever she wants.  Any ideas??  Also, >what is the best way to make this transition easier on her??  She growls at >and reprimands the puppy for coming near her, but when we are around other >dogs she tells the strangers to "get away from my puppy!"  Why would she act >that way, and hate him at home??  Thanks! >Lori Peters and Luna (tell her to take him back, pleeeeeease)

I’m pretty much a beginner at this dog behavior stuff, but that doesn’t keep me from giving advice; just take it with a grain of salt, OK? When Harlan gets uppity, we do a doggy push-up review to remind him just who’s paying the bills around here: Sit, Down, Sit, Down, etc. Or maybe a loooooong down. With lots of praise for being a good dog. You might try something like that to have her "earn" permission to get into the car. Maybe you can think up ways to make the presence of the puppy rewarding. Perhaps she has a treat or toy she really, really likes. If you only let her have it when pup is in the same room, maybe she will associate the pup with "good stuff". Giving her extra addition is probably a good idea. Maybe ask her to obey a command first. Ah, sibling rivalry, ain’t it fun? Terri Willis & Harlan (Uppity? Who, me?) — Looking for a pet? Live in the Kansas City area? Check out http://www.critterconnection.com/shelterindex.html Hey, it worked for me — it’s how I met this guy: http://www.sound.net/~twillis/Harlan/harlan.html

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