Question:
I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very helpful advise. Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. Also while trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have misplaced a few of the techniques we are using. I’m not a professional in this area that is why I am asking the questions. It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private not in public forum. Sherri
Response:
I thought so too, Sherri, when I first came here. My killfile is huge, and just from some of the dog related ng’s. — Remove the word "trucks" from the address in order to answer e-mail.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using. I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri
Response:
>It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private >not in public forum. >Sherri
Dear Sherri, Try using a killfile, like mine below, and you will find this newsgroup quite readable. –Marshall I have read rpdb for about four years. Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much. They include: Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane Webb, and Terri Willis. Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer "From the time of early robust humans [about 100,000 years ago] to the present, the human brain has stayed the same size." Ernst Mayr, _This is Biology_, p. 240. Consequently, what separates us from those "early robust humans" is culture! /"Jerry Howe"/h:j /Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe /Ed Williams/h:j /BIGDOGBITE/h:j /Evil Lad/h:j /JohnDoe/h:j
Response:
football analyst by CBS for saying.. > I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using. I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I came in to get some different opinions and viewpoints, not to be told that I’m basically an idiot who has no idea how to treat a dog or take care of one. The animals I have had in my life, the animals that I have cared for in the kennel I worked for two years, and those I treated in pre-vet courses would all disagree with this assertion, but that matters little when an opportunity for a cheap shot is there, it seems. Thankfully, there are some who dispense their advice with a grain of salt, with the realization that they don’t know everything, and that don’t feel the need to talk down to someone merely because they have a different methodology. — "For those who preserve it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
> I thought so too, Sherri, when I first came here. My killfile is huge, and > just from some of the dog related ng’s.
koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Response:
>/Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe
Suggestion: /nin*y *boy/h:j this catches the assorted misspellings of ninyboy, ninny boy, etc. –Cindy
Response:
Hello Sherri,
> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs.
Well, it USED to be, until I and a few OTHER competent trainers came around and EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED the dog abusers we’ve got here… Now all they do is lie about me, and most of the COMPETENT TRAINERS don’t bother posting here anymore, because they get burned out trying to defend NOT HURTING DOGS to train them. > I remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise.
No doubt that’s where you learned the nilif and the alpha rollover… > Man has this group changed!!
Think IMPROVED. Our Gang Of Thugs is a little more cautious about giving "advice" that may recieve criticism from the true experts here. > I really just came for some practical advise on how to deal w/the
aggression issues we are > having.
Oh, well I can save you lots of trouble. Just read koehler. MOST of our contributors are koehler trainers. Ask a couple of them for instructions for HANGING your dog, that’s the ONLY way they can deal with the sort of problems your dog has. That and jerk and choke the dog on a pronged choke collar, shock, and confine IT till IT straightens out, our until you KILL the dog, TO BE FAIR. > Not to be criticized for trying to help this dog.
Oh, that’s just a couple of our regulars. The rest will be glad to write you off the board, with instructions for dominating and subordinating your dog. > And definitely not to be involved in what appears to be a large amount of bashing and > disagreements.
You mean disagreements over the METHODS you’ve been taught to dominate your dog? > Also while trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using.
I’m not sure what you mean by that. I think you mean to say you didn’t clearly articulate what you’ve been "taught" by the bums who gave you all the good "alpha domninance" techniques. When those techniques FAIL, you KILL the dog. That’s the part they don’t talk about until they pass around the crying towel, telling you HOWE much you cared, and HOWE you done everything you possibly could, except LEARN EFFECTIVE behavior modification techniques. They’ll come right out and tell you my methods won’t work, and then they’ll have a good cry with you… > I’m not a professional in this area that is why I am asking the questions.
I’ve specialized in temperment and behavior problems for three dozen years with giant breed dogs… Our "experts" here are chumps. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in
privatenot in public > forum.
Sorry. This is where these bums NEED to be EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED. > Sherri
Wanna know what makes a perfectly well behaved, perfectly housebroken, very psychotic dog??? koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Response:
> koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog
Howe on being an idiot http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.
Response:
> Well, it USED to be, until I and a few OTHER competent trainers came around > and > EXPOSED and IDENTIFIED the dog abusers
Right here http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.
Response:
> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed
Don’t know if it’s changed, Sheri. I was jumped when i wandered in two years ago, and the abuse hasn’t stopped since. It’s usenet, sherri. These people r mostly a bunch of emotional cripples. U can forget about the "shame on u guys" cause they don’t seem to have any shame, and they’ve got a collective memory of about 2 weeks so it don’t much matter to them how stupid, ignorant, or nasty they come off. I read your original post and the advice u received really wasn’t all that bad. It’s free remember? Sure these guys can be a little condescending and sanctimonious–especially when you consider how wrong they usually are about dog behavior–but that feeling of being an expert at something is pretty much the only compensation they get here. So give it to them. 
U might try running a search in the deja archives 4 (canis55 AND trick or treat). If u can find that trick or treat exercise, it should prove very helpful in your dog’s case. My opinion is I wouldn’t adopt out that pooch without informing new owner that the dog has or has had this problem. Also wouldn’t recommend this ng to anyone without telling them we have had or do have this problem. Before you buy.
Response:
> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements.
[snip] Sherri, There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group. But you posted a pretty tough question. I suspect lots of us have ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a dangerous/destructive situation such as you described. IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get rid of the dog." But it is really a personal decision how committed you are to keeping, managing, and attempting to rehabilitate this animal. Beyond that, *I* sure have no advice for you; I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving that way before. What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions for this one. — Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
Response:
> I couldn’t have said it better myself. I came in to get some different > opinions and viewpoints, not to be told that I’m basically an idiot who > has no idea how to treat a dog or take care of one.
Um, Bryan- I read both the threads you started (didn’t contribute because others had already given good advice), and I’m puzzled as to why you would feel you were told you were "an idiot". True, a couple of people responded thinking that you were leaving the dog out all the time, but I didn’t see anybody being nasty. Indeed, at least one of those people *apologised* to you for misunderstanding you. And a number of people made useful comments- did I miss something? Not trying to be combative, at all- I’m genuinely confused! The animals I have > had in my life, the animals that I have cared for in the kennel I worked > for two years, and those I treated in pre-vet courses would all disagree > with this assertion, but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems.
Hm, well, I think anybody who read *all* of your posts would also disagree. It’s just that we *do* get a lot of people who really *don’t* have a clue- just like the ones you mentioned running into when you worked at the shelter. People get a bit cynical, I think, when they’ve seen it over and over, and sometimes jump to conclusions… And we DO have a few resident buttheads! I commend you, BTW, for answering those who were critical in an evenhanded manner, and calmly explaining where they were mistaken. > Thankfully, there are some who dispense their advice with a grain of > salt, with the realization that they don’t know everything, and that > don’t feel the need to talk down to someone merely because they have a > different methodology.
Actually, Bryan, if you stick around (and ignore the squabbles, which are mostly precipitated by four specific people), I think you’ll find that there’s a *lot* of good discussion in RPDB. It’s why I’m still here after fo ur years, despite our resident certified loony and the two or three cranks who pop in and out. I hope you *do* stick around- we need more sensible posters! And I’d like to hear how things go with your new pup. Sarah (Pack Leader and Mamcat) Brenin, CGC, AD, S-OAC, S-OJC, O-OGC, EJC, 1/2 EAC (formerly the Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Purring Monitor Ornament and Wicked Cat Extraordinaire Morag, the Levitating Lurcher Lass, NAC, O-NJC, NGC Robyn the Meezer-Brat, Inspector of Human Activity & Intrepid Door-Climber we can be seen at: http://ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=98A197877B92 New (and funny) pics at: http://www.ememories.com/pf/default.asp?PF=949D9283B0C2A393
Response:
Hello john, You’ve given a couple of pretty lousy links there…
> www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/library.htm
This link is to our lyingdoc dermer’s university. Same stupid crap, dressed in alphabet soup. > Just about anything you would ever need to know about your pup > can be found there. > another good dog related site is: > http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/ > which is the site run by the Monks of New Skete
The heavy handed Thugs? They brought us the alpha rollover, and tell us when we HIT the dog, if he don’t SCREAM, we didn’t HIT him HARD enough.. > good luck and don’t be put off by the kooks in > Rec.Pets.Dog.Behavior
Yes, we’ve got a bunch of them here. I’m working on choking them to death. Your pal, Jerry. > –Marshall lyingdoc dermer writes: > I have read rpdb for about four years.
Yes, you’ve been one of the ringleaders here in defence of confronting and punishing dogs. You lost the title Master Of Deception, when you crossed the line from OPINION, to OUTRIGHT LYING. > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of
the rpdb regulars from > whom I have learned much.
This is PRECIOUS… We’ll SEE EXACTLY what kind of INFORMATION you respect… They include: Amy Dahl, "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG, Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears" INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES. > Diane Blackman,
She admits she doesn’t know enough about training to edit the VICIOUS and ERRONEOUS links on her web page. She’s taken the title "Master of Decpetion" by default. She comes close to lying, but hasn’t actually been DIRECT enought to get BAGGED, as you did, lying doc. She day boards her dogs because they are not trustworthy at home alone, and has had a dog for five years who’s relentlessly pulled on lead, DESPITE the neat little knitted cover-up for her pronged choke collar, so her PALS don’t see what she does to her dogs. > jdoee, J
Said to lyingdogDUMMY: "I was trying to learn something from your posts." "My on the job persona would be incompetent as a dog keeper." jdoee and Stacey Dog >.janet Boss,
See the thread "interested in hearing," where she overlooks TWO shock containment systems that made the dog aggressive. Her solution for all aggression problesm is to jerk and choke the dog on pronged choke collars and confine the dog to a crate when you are not able to sufficiently jerk and choke the dog… > Susan Fraser,
She HURTS dogs to train them, and says it doesn’t HURT. > Avrama Gingold,
"Chin cuff" does not mean HIT the dog." She got her own front teeth knocked down her throat because of jerking her dog and making it look like an accident. The dog LEARNED to HURT her AND make it LOOK like an accident, as he was TAUGHT. > Lynn Kosmakos,
"I LOVE KOEHLER." Says it all for me…, writes for a new foster care dog: "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction." > Bob Maida,
He’s NEVER given any training advice here, and even referred a LIVE CUSTOMER to ANOTHER TRAINER who’s got "more experience" with dog/dog aggression… He’s only been in this RACKET for thirty years…he was AFRAID that carol would come back here and tell us HE said to jerk, choke, and HANG, her dog. He says he recommends his "students" read cindymooreon’s web site, and they LEARN a lot from her…(This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) > Cindy Tittle Moore,
Ah yes. cindymooreon. She’s been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow her to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. She believes ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… She’ll twist and pinch ears as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work. > Denna Pace,
"There’s much wisdom in koehler." (Her dogs run away from home.) Says it all for me. > John Richardson,
He’ll killl any pit bull who growls at a human. No second chances here. He’s a pit bull libertarian, and KILLS aggressive pit dogs to PROTECT the good reputation of the breed. > Ludwig Smith,
"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. > Jane Webb,
She "trains the come command with positive reinforcement," and "PROOFS IT" with the shock collar. > and Terri Willis.
Yes, our psychoclown: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of > http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
Response:
>/Ninnyboy/h:j <——-For comments about Mr. Howe > Suggestion: > /nin*y *boy/h:j > this catches the assorted misspellings of ninyboy, ninny boy, etc. > –Cindy
Ah yes. cindymooreon. You’ve been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow you to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. You believe ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… You’ll twist and pinch ears as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work. You’ve been OBSESSED with harassing me, because I’ve EXPOSED, IDENTIFIED, and shown everyone what kind of SADISCTIC IDIOTS, you and your Gang Of Thugs pals are. Have a nice day! Jerry. j;~} HERE’S a couple of questions that have STUMPED THE THUGS: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 William Koehler Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider: "If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.) HOWE does koehler KNOW the dog don’t think he’s coming back to beat him every twenty minutes for the same mistake, just because you’re mad at him, instead of just TRAINING him??? See what I mean? You can’t justify that. "Read koehler for content" marquis de shaw, IDIOT, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, IDIOT, pathological liar, noted dog abuser.
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG," lyingfrosty dahl. koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." Tell us HOWE the dog knows he shouldn’t be barking? That is, until the beatings take effect, after ENOUGH lessons of "hard spankings of long duration??? It’s IN THE BOOK. Tell us HOWE COME you think dogs might want to take a big chunk out of an abusive Thug who beats him every twenty minutes for crappin on the floor in a room you’ve restricted him to for this purpose, and then tied him next to a forced accident? And when koehler OCCASIONALLY finds a dog who objects to his training, why does he HANG the dog, instead of calming them down and teaching them there’s nothing to be afraid of??? That’s the ONLY question ANYONE of you CAN answer. The answer is OBVIOUS. koehler trainers are DOG ABUSING COWARDS "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) HOWE MUCH brains does it take to beat a dog every twenty minutes for the same mistake you’ve tied it next to??? But I might like shooting them with a sling shot or BB gun better, you know, to teach the dog to WANT to stay at home "Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "Don’t let him do that & read cindymooreon’s web page," boob maida. (This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver: For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction. Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in." "Has not Nature proved, in giving us the strength necessary to submit them to our desires, that we have the right to do so?" le Marquis de Sade "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Response:
Hello lyingfrosty dahl, You got any idea why I call you a proven liar? I’ll post some QUOTES from you below…
> There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group.
Let’s talk about the NOISE a dog makes when you pinch and twist IT’S ears… Your pal cindymooreon won’t answer that because she don’t hear them scream… Or do you only pinch? I never get that straight, do I??? I’ve never beaten a dog with a stick before. What’s THAT sound like??? > But you posted a pretty tough question. I suspect lots of us have > ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but > do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a > dangerous/destructive situation such as you described.
You’re a koehler trainer. I’ll post some of the good koehler training for housebreaking and barking below. That’s the ESSENCE of most of koehler’s COMMUNICATON with dogs, eh? Huh? It’s a language they understand. It’s PRECISE, isn’t it??? > IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get > rid of the dog."
Your buddies here would say "KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR." > But it is really a personal decision how committed you are to keeping, managing, and > attempting to rehabilitate this animal.
You say that because you only understand HURTING dogs to train them. You admit you flunked out of clicker training because you’re too impatient, vicious, and too stupid. > Beyond that, *I* sure have no advice for you;
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! > I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving that way before.
You’ve never heard of TRAINING a dog, either. You HURT dogs to make them UNABLE to RESIST your "will." > What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this > newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case > there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who > can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions > for this one.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! That’s an UNDERSTATEMENT. The BUMS here are mostly koehler trainers, and they ONLY understand HURTING dogs to train them. YOU KNOW THAT as well as I do… The CURE for this dog is to SHOCK, JERK and CHOKE IT on a pronged choke collar, or to HANG IT into being FRIENDLY. > Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG," lyingfrosty dahl. koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him.
Response:
>I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog.
There’s nothing wrong with giving a good dog another chance at life. The monster you turned loose on your daughter is just causing havoc. How could anyone in their right mind give you the go ahead to behave so badly?
Response:
snip reasonable comments >but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems.
snip Certainly is the way I’ve been seeing it. I think its a behavior issue – people can be trained to be mean and cruel and to delight in the cheap shot – doesn’t take much just being the target for a while either drives people away or hones them sharper. Very astute take on the situation you have IMO. Nancy whet whet whet 
Response:
>snip reasonable comments >but that matters little when an opportunity for a > cheap shot is there, it seems. >snip >Certainly is the way I’ve been seeing it. >I think its a behavior issue – people can be trained to be mean and cruel >and to delight in the cheap shot – …
…or they can be just like you, ya’ nasty ol’ hag, and be totally oblivious as to how NATURALLY NASTY and MEAN-SPIRITED you can be, and without any coaxing from anyone, either. Yup…you’re a naturally nasty ol’ hag. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman
Response:
> Hello john, > You’ve given a couple of pretty lousy links there…
Here is a good one http://www.i1.net/~dogman/jerry.html Before you buy.
Response:
Hello elaine, That’s YOUR perception of the state of the art of "training" as you’ve been taught by our "experts" here… Life doesn’t have to HURT. Jerry.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be > criticized > for trying to help this dog. > There’s nothing wrong with giving a good dog another chance at life. The > monster you turned loose on your daughter is just causing havoc. How could > anyone in their right mind give you the go ahead to behave so badly?
Response:
Ya, you thought you’d be supported just because the assailant is a DOG. On whacked out pet newsgroups like this, a DOG can do anything to anybody, and many here don’t care at all because it’s a dog doing it.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. Also while > trying to explain what we are doing and what is going on I may have > misplaced a few of the techniques we are using. I’m not a professional in > this area that is why I am asking the questions. > It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private > not in public forum. > Sherri
Response:
>I’ve never beaten a dog with a stick before.
Nope….just kill them with a good spike and squirt.
Response:
>It is just my opinion but I think bashing people should be done in private >not in public forum. >Sherri > Dear Sherri, > Try using a killfile, like mine below, and you will find this > newsgroup quite readable. > –Marshall
Let’s take a close look at your sig file, eh lyingdoc??? I just love making a chump out of you. HOWE’S my spellin, prufessor? And my granma sends her best… > I have read rpdb for about four years.
Yes, you’ve been one of the ringleaders here in defence of confronting and punishing dogs. You lost the title Master Of Deception, when you crossed the line from OPINION, to OUTRIGHT LYING. > Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of > the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much.
This is PRECIOUS… We’ll SEE EXACTLY what kind of INFORMATION you respect… They include: Amy Dahl, "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG, Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears" INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES. > Diane Blackman,
She admits she doesn’t know enough about training to edit the VICIOUS and ERRONEOUS links on her web page. She’s taken the title "Master of Decpetion" by default. She comes close to lying, but hasn’t actually been DIRECT enought to get BAGGED, as you did, lying doc. She day boards her dogs because they are not trustworthy at home alone, and has had a dog for five years who’s relentlessly pulled on lead, DESPITE the neat little knitted cover-up for her pronged choke collar, so her PALS don’t see what she does to her dogs. > jdoee, J
Said to lyingdogDUMMY: "I was trying to learn something from your posts." "My on the job persona would be incompetent as a dog keeper." jdoee and Stacey Dog >.janet Boss,
See the thread "interested in hearing," where she overlooks TWO shock containment systems that made the dog aggressive. Her solution for all aggression problesm is to jerk and choke the dog on pronged choke collars and confine the dog to a crate when you are not able to sufficiently jerk and choke the dog…As an aside, our Gang Of Thugs consensus of opinion was "KILL THE DOG TO BE FAIR." > Susan Fraser,
She HURTS dogs to train them, and says it doesn’t HURT. > Avrama Gingold,
"Chin cuff" does not mean HIT the dog." She got her own front teeth knocked down her throat because of jerking her dog and making it look like an accident. The dog LEARNED to HURT her AND make it LOOK like an accident, as he was TAUGHT. That’s allelomimetic behavior AT IT’S BEST. > Lynn "I LOVE KOEHLER," Kosmakos,
"I LOVE KOEHLER." Says it all for me…, writes for a new foster care dog: "For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it. When he barks, use the line for a correction." Says "I think an electric fence would be appropriate" for a new puppy owner. . > Bob Maida,
"Don’t let him do that," and "killfile Jerry Howe"… He’s NEVER given any training advice here, and even referred a LIVE CUSTOMER to ANOTHER TRAINER who’s got "more experience" with dog/dog aggression… boob’s only been in this RACKET for thirty years…he was AFRAID that carol would come back here and tell us HE said to jerk, choke, and HANG, her dog. He says he recommends his "students" read cindymooreon’s web site, and they LEARN a lot from her…(This bum won’t even talk training here. All he knows is "don’t let him do that" and killfile Jerry… And, he’s even offered to endorse my methods if I’d just lay off you bums, "I’m only trying to make a living," he says. HA! ) > Cindy Tittle Moore,
Ah yes. cindymooreon. She’s been BANNED from TWO obedience clubs because they can’t allow her to BRUTALIZE dogs in their classes. She believes ALL ADVANCED training requires compulson, i.e. HURT the dog… She’ll twist and pinch ears and toes as fast as lyingdoc dermer will twist and redefine words… On her FAQ’s page at k9web, she teaches us to shove our fingers down puppy’s throats to GENTLY CHOKE them out of mouthing, to scruff shake and chin cuff and knee dogs in the chest, to shove their head under water you’ve filled into a hole they’ve dug, to jerk and choke dogs on pronged choke collars, shock, alpha roll, and brutalize and dominate dogs in EVERY MANNER POSSIBLE, to MAKE them work, because it SATISFIES her EGO. She’s a classic sadist, eh doc? Huh? Eh? Huh? Huh? > Denna Pace,
"There’s much wisdom in koehler." (Her dogs run away from home.) Says it all for me. > John Richardson,
He’ll killl any pit bull who growls at a human. No second chances here. He’s a pit bull libertarian, and KILLS aggressive pit dogs to PROTECT the good reputation of the breed. > Ludwig Smith,
"Read koehler & cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. > Jane Webb,
She "trains the come command with positive reinforcement," and "PROOFS IT" with the shock collar. > and Terri Willis.
Yes, our psychoclown: "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." koehler On Correcting The Barking Dog Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something (ceiling hook, rafters, tree limb, door, or even over your shoulder, if you know HOWE. j.h.) While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again." "Housebreaking problems: Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. > Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of > http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
Next, maybe we’ll talk about "dr. p" of your university??? Your pal, Jerry. P.S. Is your dog still masturbating on the couch pillows? I do believe that’s an anxiety relief mechanism, a result of punishment and confinement. j;~} P.P.S. You endorse koehler, don’t you? Here’s koehler’s advice for chewing stuff. It may work with cornbread: William Koehler "The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training" page 185-186 "Select a food that you like exceptionally well, cram your mouth full of it, and hold it there for a while without chewing. In a surprisingly short time, you will experience a gagging sensation and will want to empty your mouth-not by swallowing, either. This gagging sensation
… read more »
Response:
>snip
My what a prissy little fudgepacker you are.
Response:
Lots of people were happy to advise her. She just didn’t like the responses she was getting. She expected everyone to ok the animal’s behavior because it is a DOG. I can’t imagine what kind of home life this family experiences with this mom’s impulsive and juvenile choices.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I thought this group was a place to discuss behavioral problems in dogs. I > remember about 4 years ago when I used this forum I received some very > helpful advise. > Man has this group changed!! I really just came for some practical advise > on how to deal w/the aggression issues we are having. Not to be criticized > for trying to help this dog. And definitely not to be involved in what > appears to be a large amount of bashing and disagreements. > [snip] > Sherri, > There’s certainly a fair amount of "noise" on this group. But > you posted a pretty tough question. I suspect lots of us have > ideas on housebreaking, puppy biting, and stuff like that but > do not want to take the responsibility to advise you in a > dangerous/destructive situation such as you described. > IME a fair number of experienced dog people would say, "get > rid of the dog." But it is really a personal decision how > committed you are to keeping, managing, and attempting to > rehabilitate this animal. Beyond that, *I* sure have no > advice for you; I’ve never even heard of a dog’s behaving > that way before. > What I’m trying to say is that there’s always junk on this > newsgroup that you have to wade through, but in your case > there may be a shortage of helpful answers because people who > can help with more routine problems may not have suggestions > for this one. > — > Amy Frost Dahl Retriever Training phone: (910) 295-6710 > Pinehurst, NC 28370 (http://www.oakhillkennel.com)
Response:
Categories: Bad Dog Behavior | 
No Comments »
) 
((( By the way here in my hometown I would not have > to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.