Question:

We have a 4 yr old lab female.  We are not able to leave her alone when we leave to go to work.  Here are the facts: 1.  My wife and I both work.  We have two small children in elementary school. 2.  We live in Minnesota.  So, being cold outside, and not wanting to leave her out when it is cold, we have: a.  left her in the house with her toys, food, water, bones, etc.- she ate toys, cloths, furniture,etc. b.  left her in the heated laundry room (12×12) with a radio on with the above stuff.  She broke the door down and trashed the room. c.  bought a larger crate to leave her in during the day. (she grew up in a puppy crate).  Gave her her favorite toys, bones, music, etc. put it in the living room where she usually sleeps.- she ripped the heavy duty metal crate to shreds, destroying it, cutting herself in the process. d.  bought one of the expensive igloo doghouses, straw, etc for outside – she ate the house. e.  put her in the garage with her toys, food, blanket, etc. – came home last night and she had ripped the metal garage door off the track, bend it, tore the door apart.  In the process, ripped her nose, paw, gums.  No stiches but sore. 3.  As soon as we come home, she is in the house with us. 4.  On weekends, she is in the house with us – no problems. 5.  We have tried all the toys and tricks – ie kongs with cheese, etc, to keep her busy, 6.  She has a good wooden doghouse outside with straw to nest in. 7.  She has been to school.  She obeys commands, both mine and the my wifes. Even the kids. 8.  Generally a good dog when she is with us.  Goes bananas when we leave her. So,  solutions? How cold is too cold? Medications?  I just heard on NPR about "seperation anxiety" for dogs and cats and how the FDA has approved psychotropic medications?  I would say she definately gets anxious in the AM as we get ready to leave for work. Need your help.

Response:

"WoW! So sorry for you…I have never heard of a dog ripping apart a gargage door before! This really sounds like separation anxiety (as you mentioned). I am no expert but you will most likely get some good advice here. Have you tried doing the making "no fuss" when you leave….??There is a regimen some people follow when this occurs..(i.e when you are about to leave, don’t make a big deal about it..say "goodbye" and then go out the door, coming back in and out several times…then when you come home, don’t make a fuss out of the dog–ignore her for a few minutes>..I am sure someone can give you a good title to read up on this..) Cheers, and good luck! C.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have a 4 yr old lab female.  We are not able to leave her alone when we > leave to go to work.  Here are the facts: > 1.  My wife and I both work.  We have two small children in elementary > school. > 2.  We live in Minnesota.  So, being cold outside, and not wanting to leave > her out when it is cold, we have: > a.  left her in the house with her toys, food, water, bones, etc.- she ate > toys, cloths, furniture,etc. > b.  left her in the heated laundry room (12×12) with a radio on with the > above stuff.  She broke the door down and trashed the room. > c.  bought a larger crate to leave her in during the day. (she grew up in a > puppy crate).  Gave her her favorite toys, bones, music, etc. put it in the > living room where she usually sleeps.- she ripped the heavy duty metal crate > to shreds, destroying it, cutting herself in the process. > d.  bought one of the expensive igloo doghouses, straw, etc for outside – > she ate the house. > e.  put her in the garage with her toys, food, blanket, etc. – came home > last night and she had ripped the metal garage door off the track, bend it, > tore the door apart.  In the process, ripped her nose, paw, gums.  No > stiches but sore. > 3.  As soon as we come home, she is in the house with us. > 4.  On weekends, she is in the house with us – no problems. > 5.  We have tried all the toys and tricks – ie kongs with cheese, etc, to > keep her busy, > 6.  She has a good wooden doghouse outside with straw to nest in. > 7.  She has been to school.  She obeys commands, both mine and the my wifes. > Even the kids. > 8.  Generally a good dog when she is with us.  Goes bananas when we leave > her. > So,  solutions? > How cold is too cold? > Medications?  I just heard on NPR about "seperation anxiety" for dogs and > cats and how the FDA has approved psychotropic medications?  I would say she > definately gets anxious in the AM as we get ready to leave for work. > Need your help.

Your situation is so severe your dog might benefit from the medication that I think you should talk to the vet and bring in the list of things that have happened which you posted here so they can understand the severity of the situation. Leaving your dog outside would just make things worse. It sounds like she would go to any lengths to escape to come look for you and possibly get lost or killed in the process. I heard recently that a new drug was just approved for use in separation anxiety and I would find out about it. Call the vet.

Response:

Sounds vaguely familiar. My system is to say "I’ll be back" and the dog accepts this. I started by saying and going out for a minute. Then five minutes etc, gradually lengthening the time. Now Henri will wait for a couple of days quite happily. The one thing we did do was to say ‘daddy’s home’ or ‘I’m home’ and make a fuss over the dog when you do come in. Hope this helps David Goyder UK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >We have a 4 yr old lab female.  We are not able to leave her alone when we >leave to go to work.  Here are the facts: >1.  My wife and I both work.  We have two small children in elementary >school. >2.  We live in Minnesota.  So, being cold outside, and not wanting to leave >her out when it is cold, we have: >a.  left her in the house with her toys, food, water, bones, etc.- she ate >toys, cloths, furniture,etc. >b.  left her in the heated laundry room (12×12) with a radio on with the >above stuff.  She broke the door down and trashed the room. >c.  bought a larger crate to leave her in during the day. (she grew up in a >puppy crate).  Gave her her favorite toys, bones, music, etc. put it in the >living room where she usually sleeps.- she ripped the heavy duty metal crate >to shreds, destroying it, cutting herself in the process. >d.  bought one of the expensive igloo doghouses, straw, etc for outside – >she ate the house. >e.  put her in the garage with her toys, food, blanket, etc. – came home >last night and she had ripped the metal garage door off the track, bend it, >tore the door apart.  In the process, ripped her nose, paw, gums.  No >stiches but sore. >3.  As soon as we come home, she is in the house with us. >4.  On weekends, she is in the house with us – no problems. >5.  We have tried all the toys and tricks – ie kongs with cheese, etc, to >keep her busy, >6.  She has a good wooden doghouse outside with straw to nest in. >7.  She has been to school.  She obeys commands, both mine and the my wifes. >Even the kids. >8.  Generally a good dog when she is with us.  Goes bananas when we leave >her. >So,  solutions? >How cold is too cold? >Medications?  I just heard on NPR about "seperation anxiety" for dogs and >cats and how the FDA has approved psychotropic medications?  I would say she >definately gets anxious in the AM as we get ready to leave for work. >Need your help.

Response:

Hi.  I’m sorry you are having such a hard time with your lab.  Labs, however, are a very very active breed, and they are bred to work closely with their human — not to be alone for long periods of the day.  They are also bred to have something in their mouth, and so they are usually bigtime chewers and can be very destructive.  It’s too bad you have to be gone from home for so many hours… Before medicating your dog, please consider that she’s probably not getting what she needs.  I have a very very well trained golden retriever.  We go to obedience class once weekly and we practice at home daily.  We go on daily walks and every third day we go for long bike rides.  Every day we play together with my 2 other dogs and my foster dogs in a fenced-in backyard for about 1 hour.  He is content to rest inside the house when I’m not here. HOWEVER — before he was so highly trained and before we did so much obedience training, he needed a lot more exercise before he would be calm in the house.  A tired dog is a good dog.  Your dog probably needs an hour long bike ride before you leave for work, and then 1 hour of hard play and fetching when you return, and a couple 15 minute obedience sessions each day, and a long walk in the evenings too.  She might even need some serious obedience to give her mental stimulation; I’m talking a class each week and then maybe even competition.  And of course she probably could stand to have somebody come home at lunch time and take her for another walk.   Can either of you come home at lunch?  Can you hire somebody (petsitter, local teenager, whatever) to come over in the middle of the day and take her out for a walk and for some play?   As a short-term solution, you can try leaving her outside if you can build a secure dog run for her, with a cement floor and a roof and shelter for her to use if she chooses.  I think it’s better to be cold than to be given away or taken to the pound…  And in the meantime you can work on training her.  Training helps dogs to not be so freaked out.  You can also work on crate training her so that maybe one day she’ll accept being crated while you’re gone.  I don’t think the outdoor dog run is an ideal, longterm solution, since she’ll probably still be anxious and she might bark and annoy the neighbors… To help her begin to like her crate, she should be fed every meal in it, with the door open.  She’s big enough that her crate will be big enough that you can probably fit into it with her, and your kids would surely fit.  They can get in with her and play games and give her treats.  Also leave some treats in the back of the crate for her to "find" when she’s just hanging out in the house.  If she plays fetch, toss the ball into the crate and let her chase it.   You might be able to get her used to it if you do this for a week but it might take longer.  If I were you I’d see about taking a few days off work — or do you get Martin Luther King Day off?  If so, take that and a couple of extra days and the weekend and spend that time trying to get her used to her crate.  Maybe your spouse could take a couple days off after your days so that she has even more time to get used to it.  When you try closing the door for the first time, only leave for a few minutes.  It’s always best to only let dogs out when they are calm, and not when they are barking or whining, so that they don’t get the idea that they should bark or whine to get let out.  But the problem is that sometimes they bark and whine for so long that you’d have to leave them in there for hours, and that’s not good for a dog with these kinds of problems.  So, hopefully she knows a good solid sit command, and then you can tell her to sit when she’s in her crate.  When she obeys you, then you can open the door and let her out.  In fact, a down command might be even better, if she knows that.   Personally I feel that the plastic airline carrier type crates are stronger, especially the more expensive ones with the nice latches that hold the top and bottom together.  But my wire crates are pretty cheap, and I’m sure I could have gotten a stronger one if I would have spent more money.  Since this isn’t a housebreaking issue, be sure to get the biggest crate possible to give her the most room.   An alternative to the outside dog run idea would be to buy one of those chain link kennel kits.  I see them at Home Depot all the time.  I don’t think she could tear apart one of those.  You could set it up in your garage.  Again, ideally she would one day become used to a crate that’s inside your home, so that she can smell you and be reassured and not feel isolated.  But in the meantime I don’t think she could engage in any more destruction if you bought one of those kennel kits.  If you have a big enough house and an area that has a vinyl floor, I guess you could just use the kennel kit inside… although knowing that your dog is a lab, she might find a way to eat the floor!   One other idea:  can either of you take the dog to work?  I often take my dogs to school with me.  They rest in my van inside their crates, and I come out on my breaks from class and walk them.  Now that it’s winter it’s really easy, but in the summer I have to be sure I can park in the basement of my parking garage where it stays very cool.  It’s possible she’d just go crazy in a crate that’s in your car, but I’ve seen dogs who hate to be crated at home who are fine in the crates in the car.  I guess they realize there is nowhere to go if they get out… Plus I think they like the crates that are in the car better, since we always go somewhere fun when they get put in them. Well, I’m wishing you luck.  Let us know how it goes. Cindi

Response:

 Dogs tear things up because that is fun for them. I do not believe that most distructive dogs suffer from "separation anxiety". It’s more like separation fun.  Put in a heavy duty dog run, and keep her there when you’re out. Yes, it’s sad that she has to be out there in cold weather, but better than than losing her home. : We have a 4 yr old lab female.  We are not able to leave her alone when we : leave to go to work.  Here are the facts: : 1.  My wife and I both work.  We have two small children in elementary : school. : 2.  We live in Minnesota.  So, being cold outside, and not wanting to leave : her out when it is cold, we have: : a.  left her in the house with her toys, food, water, bones, etc.- she ate : toys, cloths, furniture,etc. : b.  left her in the heated laundry room (12×12) with a radio on with the : above stuff.  She broke the door down and trashed the room. : c.  bought a larger crate to leave her in during the day. (she grew up in a : puppy crate).  Gave her her favorite toys, bones, music, etc. put it in the : living room where she usually sleeps.- she ripped the heavy duty metal crate : to shreds, destroying it, cutting herself in the process. : d.  bought one of the expensive igloo doghouses, straw, etc for outside – : she ate the house. : e.  put her in the garage with her toys, food, blanket, etc. – came home : last night and she had ripped the metal garage door off the track, bend it, : tore the door apart.  In the process, ripped her nose, paw, gums.  No : stiches but sore. : 3.  As soon as we come home, she is in the house with us. : 4.  On weekends, she is in the house with us – no problems. : 5.  We have tried all the toys and tricks – ie kongs with cheese, etc, to : keep her busy, : 6.  She has a good wooden doghouse outside with straw to nest in. : 7.  She has been to school.  She obeys commands, both mine and the my wifes. : Even the kids. : 8.  Generally a good dog when she is with us.  Goes bananas when we leave : her. : So,  solutions? : How cold is too cold? : Medications?  I just heard on NPR about "seperation anxiety" for dogs and : cats and how the FDA has approved psychotropic medications?  I would say she : definately gets anxious in the AM as we get ready to leave for work. : Need your help.

Response:

> Dogs tear things up because that is fun for them. I do not believe that >most distructive dogs suffer from "separation anxiety". It’s more like >separation fun.

You don’t believe? My dobie won’t tear things up even if I try to reward him for it…(and I have never corrected him for such behavior), so how can you call it ’separation fun’? Does such a dog howl and while and rip their paws apart bleeding, because he’s having ‘fun’? {excluding the FEW dogs that need prozac} No.. too many cases are places where owners have not made it ok for their dogs to be alone, and given them something to do, while they wait for you to come home. > Put in a heavy duty dog run, and keep her there when you’re out. Yes, >it’s sad that she has to be out there in cold weather, but better than >than losing her home.

Where did that come from? The statement was "dog is good when we are home". Generally a dog who has a major chewing problem will chew 24-7, corrections or not. Either dog is majorly bored, totally terrified of being alone, or has been taught that related behaviors are acceptable. I recommend you go to a good dog behaviorist (positively training dog trainer who works one on one with you and your dog on specific behavior problems. They do teach classes, but usually spend more time doing repair work on dogs.) "separation fun" Go figure. remove the spam from my email box to speak with me Web address http://www.potomacvmi.net http://www.canines-in-training.com

Response:

> Sounds vaguely familiar. My system is to say "I’ll be back" and the > dog accepts this. > I started by saying and going out for a minute. Then five minutes etc, > gradually lengthening the time. Now Henri will wait for a couple of > days quite happily. The one thing we did do was to say ‘daddy’s home’ > or ‘I’m home’ and make a fuss over the dog when you do come in. > Hope this helps > David Goyder > UK

I read a lot on separation anxiety because we had a bad problem. Not the level of severity that was described by the original poster, but bad enough that my vet recommended drugs at one time. I didn’t use the drugs, instead worked on desensitizing my dog and it took about 3 months for her to calm down and be okay alone. At the time, I had the luxury at the time of being home part-time so I could go out for short periods of time working up to longer times. Just like David above says, if you can leave with a cheery "see you later!" or "I’ll be back soon." sometimes the dog will think you will be back in a short time (if you conditioned it that way). I read the most destructive, anxious time is the first 30 minutes you are gone. If they are calm the first 30 minutes, chances are they will be okay for the rest as long as you stick to your return schedule. My dog had a threshold of 6 hours. Beyond that, it took another 6 months before she was okay to leave beyond 6 hours. The max I will ever do is 8 hours because I have to. Anyway, I disagree with David fussing over the dog when he comes home, at least while the problem of separation anxiety exists because from what I read, the departure and return should be as low-key as possible to keep from putting emphasis on your absence. It took a lot of discipline on my part to come in and just pat my dog and walk away, or to just say "I’ll be back" and walk right out when I could hear her barking and whining. You’ll get to know your dog’s reaction and almost be able to predict whether it will be a good absence or a difficult one for them. SOme days my dog would just go lie by the window when I went to the door. Other days she tried desperately to follow me out to the garage. I worried all day when she followed me because I knew for some reason she felt less confident. You might also look and see if other sources are the problem. The days when we had problems with our water pipes and the floor shook from the pressure, my dog was a nervous wreck when I came home and had chewed paper and had diarrhea. Until I heard the noise myself and saw her reaction. I was puzzled.

Response:

> > Dogs tear things up because that is fun for them. I do not believe that >most distructive dogs suffer from "separation anxiety". It’s more like >separation fun. > You don’t believe? My dobie won’t tear things up even if I try to > reward him for it…(and I have never corrected him for such > behavior), so how can you call it ’separation fun’? Does such a dog > howl and while and rip their paws apart bleeding, because he’s having > ‘fun’?

<snip> I was trying to get the part about it being fun to rip half of their face off tearing through a garage door or a doorframe. Sounds exactly like separation anxiety to me.  I hope the owners will go to a vet who specializes in behavior, find out how to treat separation anxiety, and start to so it.  My own dog has mild SA, and I know first hand how tough it can be.  The last thing they need is advice like this, from someone who doesn’t even recognize that the dog is under extreme stress.  It could cost the dog his life.           -Jen

Response:

> I read a lot on separation anxiety because we had a bad problem. Not the level > of severity that was described by the original poster, but bad enough that my > vet recommended drugs at one time. I didn’t use the drugs, instead worked on > desensitizing my dog and it took about 3 months for her to calm down and be > okay alone.

<snip> Birgit, I wonder if you could email the original poster privately, since you’ve been through separation anxiety before?  I’m worried about the dog; as far as I can see we haven’t had an update.           -Jen

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We have a 4 yr old lab female.  We are not able to leave her alone when we > leave to go to work.  Here are the facts: > 1.  My wife and I both work.  We have two small children in elementary > school. > 2.  We live in Minnesota.  So, being cold outside, and not wanting to leave > her out when it is cold, we have: > a.  left her in the house with her toys, food, water, bones, etc.- she ate > toys, cloths, furniture,etc. > b.  left her in the heated laundry room (12×12) with a radio on with the > above stuff.  She broke the door down and trashed the room. > c.  bought a larger crate to leave her in during the day. (she grew up in a > puppy crate).  Gave her her favorite toys, bones, music, etc. put it in the > living room where she usually sleeps.- she ripped the heavy duty metal crate > to shreds, destroying it, cutting herself in the process. > d.  bought one of the expensive igloo doghouses, straw, etc for outside – > she ate the house. > e.  put her in the garage with her toys, food, blanket, etc. – came home > last night and she had ripped the metal garage door off the track, bend it, > tore the door apart.  In the process, ripped her nose, paw, gums.  No > stiches but sore. > 3.  As soon as we come home, she is in the house with us. > 4.  On weekends, she is in the house with us – no problems. > 5.  We have tried all the toys and tricks – ie kongs with cheese, etc, to > keep her busy, > 6.  She has a good wooden doghouse outside with straw to nest in. > 7.  She has been to school.  She obeys commands, both mine and the my wifes. > Even the kids. > 8.  Generally a good dog when she is with us.  Goes bananas when we leave > her. > So,  solutions? > How cold is too cold? > Medications?  I just heard on NPR about "seperation anxiety" for dogs and > cats and how the FDA has approved psychotropic medications?  I would say she > definately gets anxious in the AM as we get ready to leave for work. > Need your help.

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Question:

Hi Elaine, Thanks for your input.  I gather you think I’m overreacting!  To answer your question, yes I did think that in other circumstances I might have been grateful for the dog’s intervention.  However, these days, we read and hear so much about dogs biting humans "for no reason", and how the warning signs are always clear months and even years before.  I’m hopeful, as you suggest, that we don’t have a problem with our dog.  But I’d hate to find myself in a situation, in two or three years’ time, where the dog bites a chunk out of someone’s leg and everyone tells me I could have prevented it if I hadn’t ignored the signs.  That was the main reason for my question. As for the rest – we have a great dog who gives us a lot of love and pleasure.  She’s an important member of our family, and we can’t understand why anyone would have given her up to the SPCA – which is where we got her.  We want to do everything we can to keep her safe, and that includes taking corrective action if necessary before innocent behaviours become problem behaviours. Thanks again for your comments.  I’ll try not to worry so much! Christine

Response:

Christine, My dog rarely barks either, that was one of the reasons we got her.  When all the other dogs at the shelter were carrying on, she remained calm and quiet.  One day, when she was about 9 months old, my boyfriend came in from motorcycling wearing a full leather suit and his helmet.  All of a sudden I heard this HUGE bark, and I thought "that’s a big dog out there, I wonder who it is?"  It was my sweet Loki!  Jay looked up at her (she was standing on the balcony right above him), took off his helmet and called her. Immediately her hackles went down and her tail was wagging. On most occasions when she meets people she is very friendly and we always joke about how she would go home with anyone, or lead a robber to the jewelry if he gave her a treat.  But there has been a few times when she reacts negatively with someone, either barking or hiding behind me with her tail between her legs (very untypical of her).  I can’t explain it and I hear it’s normal.  Dogs are experts at reading body language and can sense things that we are blind to.  Fear has a smell, and aggression too, and she may just be protecting me (or herself) and trying to communicate what she is preceiving.  She has never snapped at anyone though, or bitten anyone and if she did I would take drastic measures to correct that.  In the above case with my boyfriend, I believe she barked because she didn’t recognize him at all (and couldn’t smell it was him through his new leather suit).  Maybe she is more protective of her home than we ever thought.  A good bark is better than a home security system I think (although maybe not cheaper ). I would just observe your dog, and try to see the world as she sees it, maybe she only barks at men who wear hats (I knew a dog like that, her previous owner abused her and she was deathly afraid of men who wore glasses, because he did), or maybe she is warning strangers that "hey, I’m here so don’t try to mess with my mom and dad!" Loki has a real problem with old ladies and sticks.  She cowers from the old ladies, even ones who try to feed her french fries, and if you pick up a stick to throw for fetch she clinches her eyes shut and backs away (again, all very unLoki-like behavior).  As we’ve never hit her, and she was a stray, I tend to conclude that she’s had a bad experience with the two (together or separately). Anyway, you sound like a very concerned owner and I just wanted to let you know you are not alone in your experience or concerns. Tammy & Loki – who really loves french fries, especially In-n-Out Burger’s P.S. She has also taking up barking at dogs who poo on "her" yard, I think it’s her way of saying "you ARE going to clean that mess up!" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >grateful for the dog’s intervention.  However, these days, we read and hear so >much about dogs biting humans "for no reason", and how the warning signs are >always clear months and even years before.  I’m hopeful, as you suggest, that >we don’t have a problem with our dog.  But I’d hate to find myself in a >situation, in two or three years’ time, where the dog bites a chunk out of >someone’s leg and everyone tells me I could have prevented it if I hadn’t >ignored the signs.  That was the main reason for my question.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->stood on end and she began to growl in a VERY threatening way.  We were amazed >- she’d never done anything remotely like that before.  Of course, as soon as >my husband said her name, she recognized him and rushed over for the usual >greeting (licking of hands, rubbing against legs, lying down for a belly rub – >the dog, that is, not the husband). >The following weekend we took her hiking in the mountains.  Around lunchtime we >stopped in a clearing near a stream to eat our sandwiches.  We’d been there >about 15 minutes when two other hikers came along.  Anyway, the dog rushed over >to them, barking loudly and in a not-very-friendly way.  She didn’t respond the >first time we called her – it took a couple of tries before she finally came >back.  And this from a dog who never barks in the house, even when the >downstairs neighbours make noise!

:  I don’t want a guard dog Your dog is being protective of you. She probably will not bite unless severely aggravated by an attacker ,but you should praise her for her protective instincts because you may need it someday,(the world being what it is).If everyone knows you have a protective dog they are less likely to harm you when you are on your nightime walks.     females in my experience are always the best protectors, I think it is the mother instinct. Yopu have a GOOD dog there. If she growls or barks at your husband when not recognizing him , this is normal as she percieved him to be a threat. The same with the other campers.     The barking signifys that she is aware of their presence and not to fool with her people. Once she has warned you you can tell her to keep quiet and tell her its ok with a pat and words, IF there is no immediate threat.     I had a female Black Lab(female) that was the ultimate in protection, yet an excellent family dog. You have a good animal there and I would not discourage her from doing her instinctive duty.Just let her know when you have been warned and tell her to cease and desist. Even so when she calms down she will always keep an eye on the strangers. I repeat. An excellent dog and companion,and she may have bonded to you more than your husband and therefore the protective mode goes into action.. but she will protect your husband as well if he is alone with her. Cheers,. Ed.Ontario. Canada

Response:

Hi, I have a question concerning my dog’s behaviour, but let me give you some background first.  In February we adopted a 6 month old female labrador mix from the SPCA.  She was pretty unruly when we first got her, but we’ve been going to training classes ever since, and she’s now learned to walk to heel on and off leash, sit, stay, lie down, stand, come, and so on.  In fact, we’ve had so much fun at the classes that we’re going on to more advanced stuff, and hope to progress to competition level eventually!  I’m very proud of her. While she’s a mix (labrador/Irish setter), she looks and acts just like a labrador – she’s very friendly and tolerant, loves kids, and is high energy.   We live in a 2nd floor apartment, so she doesn’t have direct access to a fenced yard, but she gets a minimum of 4 miles of walks a day, and usually more, plus half-hour playtimes in the park or a nearby woodland three or four times a week, and a long hike in the mountains on  weekends.  Not to mention the practice sessions for our obedience classes!  We feel we’re meeting her exercise needs, since she isn’t destructive in the house.  I work from home, so she’s almost always with me, and my husband occasionally works home too.  The dog sleeps in her crate, isn’t allowed on the furniture (although she’s sometimes invited to sit on someone’s lap), and works for all her treats and for her dinner:  she has to fetch the newspaper, practice an obedience move, or do one of the many tricks she’s learned (roll over, shake hands, etc.).   Nothing’s free! She’s still boistrous when visitors arrive at home – everyone gets a very exuberant and friendly welcome – but we’re working on this by keeping her on a leash every time we answer the door, and making sure no-one pays attention to her until she’s sitting quietly.  She occasionally has a "mad five minutes" when she gets over excited – this involves rushing around at high speed, grumbling and barking. In terms of personality, she’s fairly middle-of-the-road – not too submissive, not too dominant.  On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being very submissive and 10 being very dominant, I’d say she was a 5 or maybe a 6.  This is a nice dog with a lovely nature. Now, here’s the thing:  last week, I took her out for a walk around 11 at night.  In fact, we were meeting my husband, who was walking home from work.   We’d arranged to meet at a particular corner, and he was waiting for us.  It was very dark, and admittedly he did look a bit threatening, standing in the shadows under a street lamp.  Anyway, as we approached the dog saw him but didn’t recognize him.  She planted herself firmly between me and him, her hair stood on end and she began to growl in a VERY threatening way.  We were amazed – she’d never done anything remotely like that before.  Of course, as soon as my husband said her name, she recognized him and rushed over for the usual greeting (licking of hands, rubbing against legs, lying down for a belly rub – the dog, that is, not the husband). The following weekend we took her hiking in the mountains.  Around lunchtime we stopped in a clearing near a stream to eat our sandwiches.  We’d been there about 15 minutes when two other hikers came along.  Anyway, the dog rushed over to them, barking loudly and in a not-very-friendly way.  She didn’t respond the first time we called her – it took a couple of tries before she finally came back.  And this from a dog who never barks in the house, even when the downstairs neighbours make noise! My question is this:  I don’t want a guard dog.  I deliberately chose a labrador mix (the other part of the mix is an Irish Setter) because I wanted a friendly, outgoing dog.  Is there anything I can do to stop this protective behaviour before it becomes the norm?  Might I be doing something to cause it?  Or am I just over-reacting – is it a normal canine behaviour, or an adolescent behaviour, that isn’t likely to get any worse? Any insights you might have would be much appreciated.  Thanks in advance. Christine

Response:

 Christine- did you think for a moment what MIGHT have happened if you were out late walking your dog, and that strange man she didn’t recongnize was NOT your husband? What if those campers were not just a nice couple out for a walk?  At just 6 months, I’d have to say that you have a very perceptive, protective pup. You’re doing just fine with her training by the sound of things. Keep her on leash in public. Continue her training.  She sounds like an excellent dog. Please keep my address. If you ever feel that you’d rather have a dog who was oblivious to strange men in scary places, call me. I would be happy to adopt her.

: Hi, : I have a question concerning my dog’s behaviour, but let me give you some : background first.  In February we adopted a 6 month old female labrador mix : from the SPCA.  She was pretty unruly when we first got her, but we’ve been : going to training classes ever since, and she’s now learned to walk to heel on : and off leash, sit, stay, lie down, stand, come, and so on.  In fact, we’ve had : so much fun at the classes that we’re going on to more advanced stuff, and hope : to progress to competition level eventually!  I’m very proud of her. : While she’s a mix (labrador/Irish setter), she looks and acts just like a : labrador – she’s very friendly and tolerant, loves kids, and is high energy.   : We live in a 2nd floor apartment, so she doesn’t have direct access to a fenced : yard, but she gets a minimum of 4 miles of walks a day, and usually more, plus : half-hour playtimes in the park or a nearby woodland three or four times a : week, and a long hike in the mountains on  weekends.  Not to mention the : practice sessions for our obedience classes!  We feel we’re meeting her : exercise needs, since she isn’t destructive in the house.  I work from home, so : she’s almost always with me, and my husband occasionally works home too.  The : dog sleeps in her crate, isn’t allowed on the furniture (although she’s : sometimes invited to sit on someone’s lap), and works for all her treats and : for her dinner:  she has to fetch the newspaper, practice an obedience move, or : do one of the many tricks she’s learned (roll over, shake hands, etc.).   : Nothing’s free! : She’s still boistrous when visitors arrive at home – everyone gets a very : exuberant and friendly welcome – but we’re working on this by keeping her on a : leash every time we answer the door, and making sure no-one pays attention to : her until she’s sitting quietly.  She occasionally has a "mad five minutes" : when she gets over excited – this involves rushing around at high speed, : grumbling and barking. : In terms of personality, she’s fairly middle-of-the-road – not too submissive, : not too dominant.  On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being very submissive and 10 : being very dominant, I’d say she was a 5 or maybe a 6.  This is a nice dog with : a lovely nature. : Now, here’s the thing:  last week, I took her out for a walk around 11 at : night.  In fact, we were meeting my husband, who was walking home from work.   : We’d arranged to meet at a particular corner, and he was waiting for us.  It : was very dark, and admittedly he did look a bit threatening, standing in the : shadows under a street lamp.  Anyway, as we approached the dog saw him but : didn’t recognize him.  She planted herself firmly between me and him, her hair : stood on end and she began to growl in a VERY threatening way.  We were amazed : – she’d never done anything remotely like that before.  Of course, as soon as : my husband said her name, she recognized him and rushed over for the usual : greeting (licking of hands, rubbing against legs, lying down for a belly rub – : the dog, that is, not the husband). : The following weekend we took her hiking in the mountains.  Around lunchtime we : stopped in a clearing near a stream to eat our sandwiches.  We’d been there : about 15 minutes when two other hikers came along.  Anyway, the dog rushed over : to them, barking loudly and in a not-very-friendly way.  She didn’t respond the : first time we called her – it took a couple of tries before she finally came : back.  And this from a dog who never barks in the house, even when the : downstairs neighbours make noise! : My question is this:  I don’t want a guard dog.  I deliberately chose a : labrador mix (the other part of the mix is an Irish Setter) because I wanted a : friendly, outgoing dog.  Is there anything I can do to stop this protective : behaviour before it becomes the norm?  Might I be doing something to cause it? :  Or am I just over-reacting – is it a normal canine behaviour, or an adolescent : behaviour, that isn’t likely to get any worse? : Any insights you might have would be much appreciated.  Thanks in advance. : Christine

Response:

: My question is this:  I don’t want a guard dog. : Is there anything I can do to stop this protective : behaviour before it becomes the norm? She’s reacting out of fear.  Remember that dogs’ sight is very different from ours – mostly movement and shapes.  When they are startled by unexpected movement they often percieve it as a threat.  That isn’t a bad thing, and you can easily control it by your reactions.  Simply touch her and calmly tell her it is okay.  If you get anxious/upset by her reaction and correct her harshly, you’ll reconfirm her feeling that there is something to be anxious about.  Most dogs will happily take your word for it that you’ve evaluated the threat and they don’t have to do the job. Lynn K. —

Response:

It sounds like perfectly normal dog behavior to me. It’s instinctive. You are considered members of her ‘pack’ and she’s protecting her pack. I have two very sweet, lovely dogs. One is a Golden Retriever/Corgi mix and the other is a collie mix. Both are wonderful with little children and toddlers. They are by no means, ‘guard dogs.’ When the meter man comes into our back yard, they go ballistic, they growl & bark and their fur stands on end. One time when my 12 yr old son was in the car with Kandy (the Golden Retriever/Corgi dog), some guy approached the car whom we didn’t know and Kandy growled, snarled, beared her teeth and barked like crazy. The guy nervously smiled, waved ‘bye’ and backed away very quickly. It gives me a feeling of security to know the dogs would protect my kids. You’ve got a good dog, there. Irish Setters and Labs are wonderful dogs. Take care. Angelfish http://www.fastlane.net./~sburrell/artpage.htm

Response:

>Is there anything I can do to stop this protective >behaviour before it becomes the norm?  Might I be doing something to cause it?

She is probably fine, but I would take some precautions. First, if you get nervous when she is around other people (worrying if she will bark), she will get more nervous, not less. So, take her out a lot where she will see lots of people, so she will learn who to like and trust and who not to, keep calm and relaxed with her and encourage her to have fun. If she gets a bit riled when she really shouldn’t, laugh at her and tell her she is silly. Have her meet the people and, if they are willing, have them give her treats. Let her know that you are not worried and that you are in charge of things and she will relax a bit. I have had a couple of fairly protective English Setters over the years – one that was a bit of a problem – but she shouldn’t have too much of that in her. Maybe you could keep her on a long line when camping and use it to get her attention if she gets protective, but just remember not to get worried and reel her in at every approach – she could see this as you being worried about the people, not about her behavior! That would make her worse… Carwyn Silky Terriers http://www.agritel.net/~cdunster

Response:

I don’t want a guard dog Why do you insist that having an agressive dog is good.  A protection dog is not one that tthinks everyone it comes in contact with is a threat.  A well trained protection dog, ONLY reacts on command from the owner..NEVER of its own free will. You have not even seen the dog..How do you know it isn’t acting out of fear and insecurity. I suggest again this dog needs to be socialised, and desensitized to being weary of strangers.  U do need to carry out obedience training. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->stood on end and she began to growl in a VERY threatening way.  We were > amazed >- she’d never done anything remotely like that before.  Of course, as soon > as >my husband said her name, she recognized him and rushed over for the usual >greeting (licking of hands, rubbing against legs, lying down for a belly > rub – >the dog, that is, not the husband). >The following weekend we took her hiking in the mountains.  Around > lunchtime we >stopped in a clearing near a stream to eat our sandwiches.  We’d been there >about 15 minutes when two other hikers came along.  Anyway, the dog rushed > over >to them, barking loudly and in a not-very-friendly way.  She didn’t respond > the >first time we called her – it took a couple of tries before she finally > came >back.  And this from a dog who never barks in the house, even when the >downstairs neighbours make noise! > :  I don’t want a guard dog > Your dog is being protective of you. She probably will not bite unless > severely aggravated by an attacker ,but you should praise her for her > protective instincts because you may need it someday,(the world being what > it is).If everyone knows you have a protective dog they are less likely to > harm you when you are on your nightime walks. >     females in my experience are always the best protectors, I think it is > the mother instinct. Yopu have a GOOD dog there. If she growls or barks at > your husband when not recognizing him , this is normal as she percieved him > to be a threat. The same with the other campers. >     The barking signifys that she is aware of their presence and not to fool > with her people. Once she has warned you you can tell her to keep quiet and > tell her its ok with a pat and words, IF there is no immediate threat. >     I had a female Black Lab(female) that was the ultimate in protection, > yet an excellent family dog. You have a good animal there and I would not > discourage her from doing her instinctive duty.Just let her know when you > have been warned and tell her to cease and desist. Even so when she calms > down she will always keep an eye on the strangers. I repeat. An excellent > dog and companion,and she may have bonded to you more than your husband and > therefore the protective mode goes into action.. but she will protect your > husband as well if he is alone with her. > Cheers,. > Ed.Ontario. Canada

Response:

Question:

Sorry about your loss. obvisously the jerks here have never heard of country living. yeah we have cars in the country, but we also have farm dogs that perform a daily function, whether it be herding the cows or keeping the varmits away. i have 6 dogs and they run free on my property,  I trained them to the property by walking th property line with them every. we however just lost one of our dogs. she was a Dobbie named cinn, she died on a stormy night, couldnt see or hear any more. she was 15 yrs okd and never in her life did she step one foot off the property. see it’s all in training and not harrassing some one for asking a question.  think back to your first pet, how long did it really live!!!!! norma of SABERSAYS training advice.

Response:

>[...] >This is a great place to get differing views on dog behavior (and human >behavior along the way!) and dog training. >This is NOT a great place to find an expert.   >Well, of course, it is, MDM, but you must at least know how to >recognize one, too, and it’s obvious that you don’t.

I suspect that MDM knows enough to recognize that "you ain’t it." That will serve him well. >If you want an expert, interview people in you own area (or ask people here >for leads in your area) >[...] >And if you don’t know how to recognize one, you’ll be no better off >than you are right here.

Agree completely.   Robert

Response:

Settle down big boy. Some people come here in desperate need of help or are seeking education about dogs where previously they had none (education that is).  Desperate or uneducated people are often quick to fall into a false sense of security by someone claiming to be an expert. My advice to the poster was in that vein.  I also said or inferred (or at least meant to since I normally do) that there are many competent people posting here with competent advice.  I do not think, however, that substantive opinions can be all that insightful with only the written word as a guide.  Serious problems need in person attention and I encouraged the poster to find that, with the help of the folks here, I might add.   Sorry if I hurt anyone’s precious feelings, but expert is not a word I use carelessly.  As you say, give me someone here that can "walk the walk" in a situation other than behind their keyboard and then we’ll talk about who and what constitutes and expert.  Or, as they say down here, "the bullshit stops when the tailgate drops". As an aside, I have visited your website and was extremely impressed.  I happen to put you in the category of competent people here and am disappointed that you spend most of your time quarreling instead of offering out dog behavior and training advice.  Oh well. Lastly, you know nothing about me, so if you want to put me down or pick a fight, do your homework first.  If you were just being a contrarian, so be it.  I hope my explanation helped. Mike.

Response:

[...] >This is a great place to get differing views on dog behavior (and human >behavior along the way!) and dog training. >This is NOT a great place to find an expert.  

Well, of course, it is, MDM, but you must at least know how to recognize one, too, and it’s obvious that you don’t. >If you want an expert, interview people in you own area (or ask people here >for leads in your area)

[...] And if you don’t know how to recognize one, you’ll be no better off than you are right here. :>) — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman Happy "Positive-Only" Dog Kennel Specializing in the Gentle Method. Training and breeding working retrievers in the most humane, time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only methods, producing rock-solid healthy, happy, tail-wagging, face-licking, hard-working, well-mannered canine citizens for close to four decades, utilizing the most humane, time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only training collars (e.g., the Barbara Woodhouse model), the most humane, time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only longes (I make my own), the most humane, time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only throw chains (instead of dangerous cans, disks, keys, books, rocks, etc.), and humane, time-proven, extremely effective, non-aggressive, positive-only e-collars (i.e., the Tri-tronics brand.  Period.).

Response:

Derek- Sorry about your loss.  One of life’s sad and painful lessons. In regards to choosing a dog, visit the interactive dog selector at http//www.SelectSmart.com   As for good manners take note of the quiet breeds and smart brreds At SelectSmart.com in a section of articles by noted dog writers* called the "Experts Speak" author Cheryl S. Smith offers an excerpt from her book "The Trick Is In The Training" that you might find useful. Also at http://www.SelectSmart.com visit the dogs needing a good home at "Free Ads for Rescue Animals"–get a good pet and do a good thing. You lost one dog–here’s your chance to save one. -Curt Actually they write ABOUT dogs. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not >run away and I want to keep it off of the road!  I want the dog to be good >mannered and easy to train.  What would be a good dog for these >wants/needs?   >    Also, what are some good methods to train dogs to be good mannered and >them to know the basic commands?  Is there any good internet sites that >would show this?  Also, what age should you really start trying to train >the dogs the most?  I know that there are a lot of questions here and any >help would be great!  Thank you! >Derek Young

Response:

Sorry Derek – I really did think it was a troll because you sounded like you weren’t going to change anything to prevent another car accident to the next dog. Fence a portion of your yard and then good luck on your search. Remember that the person who hits your dog is also traumatized – if I hit a dog, I would feel horrible for a long time. And I used to live in the country and people drive like they are trying out for the next Indy 500. A dog doesn’t stand a chance.

Response:

FAO SCHWARZ (sp?) in NYC, the world-famous toy store, has the perfect breed for Mr. Young.  It is stuffed, and remains where it is placed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or > chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for > these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > run away and I want to keep it off of the road!  I want the dog to be good > mannered and easy to train.  What would be a good dog for these > wants/needs? > Also, what are some good methods to train dogs to be good mannered and > them to know the basic commands?  Is there any good internet sites that > would show this?  Also, what age should you really start trying to train > the dogs the most?  I know that there are a lot of questions here and any > help would be great!  Thank you! > Derek Young

Response:

Derek, I’m sorry if you felt my response wasn’t very considerate,(it could have been much worse)..but the fact is, without changing some of the things that happened with your previous dog, all the love in the world isn’t going to keep a new dog safe. Lois E.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Again Doe, thank you for trying to tell me what to do, but at least being a > little bit considerate. > Derek > This is a learning place, but sometimes I wonder if newcomers wanting > help will > hesitate to ask for it if they are immediately come down on so hard.  I > am sure > Derek loves his dogs, but does not really know the dangers and the risks > you > take letting a dog run free.  I grew up on a farm so far from town that > our dogs > did run free for many, many years without any accidents.  When young and > newly > married I moved to a farm near town our first dog was hit by a car after > jumping > out of a ditch into the path of a car.  A family near town only recently > lost a > dog after it ran into the path of a car.  I learned a lesson.  We fenced > in a > large area.   I loved my dog the best I knew how at the time.  NOW I know > better…let’s not jump so quickly on someones feelings, whether they > love their > dog or not…..better yet educate them in a considerate way.  Doe. > > No Derek…..you DIDN’T treat it with all the love you had……if that > had > > been the case, you would have built a fence or some form of enclosure > so any > > time you weren’t there to directly supervise the dog, it would have > still > > been safely kept away from the road. THAT’S all the love you > have….when > > you love something to keep it safe, even when you aren’t looking at it. > > Lois E. > > > Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country. > Animals get > > > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on > Monday > > > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years > and it > > > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road. I > then > > > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran > over. > > >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I > > sound > > > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly > not, I > > > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents > happen. > > > Derek > > > > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get > > another > > > > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be > penned > > up > > > or > > > > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would > be > > > for > > > > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house > and > > not > > > > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > > > > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think > long > > > and > > > > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

    I can’t agree more with Tracy and what she had to say.  It is not cruel to keep your dog in a contained area.  If you don’t want to put up a stockade fence, you should consider an electric fence.  These can be above or below ground and the dog may have to wear a special collar that responds to the fence’s boundaries.  However, an enclosed fenced area is best.     Your dog also should definitely be neutered / spayed, vaccinated, and on heart worm preventive since it will be allowed to "roam free".  Were your past dogs on this regimen?? Do you plan on having this dog indoors with you at all?     I think you’ll have a hard time getting a responsible breeder or rescue group to allow you to adopt a pet from them given your situation and past history.  It seems like your heart may be in the right place, but that you are just not educated as to how to care for a dog responsibly.  It is not an easy job and is not one to be taken lightly.     Really think about why you want to get another dog.  I would think if you love your animals as much as you say you do, that you would do anything to keep them safe and from harming themselves or others.  You’re lucky that the person driving the car was not injured during this incident.  It is possible to lose control of a car after hitting a large animal and I don’t think you would want a lawsuit on your hands.  Please reconsider getting another dog for a while until you are ready to make a commitment in being a responsible pet owner.     These posts are merely our opinions and you can do with them what you want, but please at least consider what most people in the newsgroup have to say.  They are looking out for the animal’s best interests.

Response:

Derek: Welcome to hell. This is a great place to get differing views on dog behavior (and human behavior along the way!) and dog training. This is NOT a great place to find an expert.  This is an online forum and any and all advice you hear will be based on either one’s own experience or their limited view of what situation you are in, but only to the extent of how you describe it. If you want an expert, interview people in you own area (or ask people here for leads in your area) that can come to you place and assess the situation in it’s totality.  THEN and only then will you get an expert opinion.  Until then, it is just an opinion. Good luck. Mike.

Response:

Again Doe, thank you for trying to tell me what to do, but at least being a little bit considerate. Derek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is a learning place, but sometimes I wonder if newcomers wanting help will > hesitate to ask for it if they are immediately come down on so hard.  I am sure > Derek loves his dogs, but does not really know the dangers and the risks you > take letting a dog run free.  I grew up on a farm so far from town that our dogs > did run free for many, many years without any accidents.  When young and newly > married I moved to a farm near town our first dog was hit by a car after jumping > out of a ditch into the path of a car.  A family near town only recently lost a > dog after it ran into the path of a car.  I learned a lesson.  We fenced in a > large area.   I loved my dog the best I knew how at the time.  NOW I know > better…let’s not jump so quickly on someones feelings, whether they love their > dog or not…..better yet educate them in a considerate way.  Doe. > No Derek…..you DIDN’T treat it with all the love you had……if that had > been the case, you would have built a fence or some form of enclosure so any > time you weren’t there to directly supervise the dog, it would have still > been safely kept away from the road. THAT’S all the love you have….when > you love something to keep it safe, even when you aren’t looking at it. > Lois E. > > Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country. Animals get > > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. > >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I > sound > > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I > > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. > > Derek > > > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get > another > > > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned > up > > or > > > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > > for > > > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and > not > > > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > > > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > > and > > > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

> I am sure >Derek loves his dogs, but does not really know the dangers and the risks you >take letting a dog run free.

letting a dog run free – his dog was killed by a car. Sometimes the only way to learn a lesson seems to be the hard and final way. My husband never fails to close our side gate anymore.  It took a life to make him remember no-matter-what. Derek needs to understand that without appropriate confinement, this will happen again.  He seems unwilling to fence or confine in the house, rather he expects to make the dog responsible for staying on the property. Sorry, but that’s idealistic and will result in another dog’s death.  And he’d have only himself to blame – not the dog. Janet Boss<BR> Best Friends Dog Obedience<BR> "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"<BR> <BR> "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate"<BR> This message automatically followed by Jerry Howe uttering his useful information: "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"

Response:

I am blaming myself for the loss!! I’m NOT blaming the dog.  I was just wondering if there was something that I could do BESIDES fencing that would help, evidently there’s not, GOSH.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am sure >Derek loves his dogs, but does not really know the dangers and the risks you >take letting a dog run free. of > letting a dog run free – his dog was killed by a car. > Sometimes the only way to learn a lesson seems to be the hard and final way. > My husband never fails to close our side gate anymore.  It took a life to make > him remember no-matter-what. > Derek needs to understand that without appropriate confinement, this will > happen again.  He seems unwilling to fence or confine in the house, rather he > expects to make the dog responsible for staying on the property. > Sorry, but that’s idealistic and will result in another dog’s death.  And he’d > have only himself to blame – not the dog. > Janet Boss<BR> > Best Friends Dog Obedience<BR> > "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"<BR> > <BR> > "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate"<BR> > This message automatically followed by Jerry Howe uttering his useful > information: "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah"

Response:

Tracy, that you for being about the only one on this group that didn’t bash me til all ends break loose.  I was considering getting a fence, but I thought to ask the ‘dog’ experts if there was anything else I could do that I wouldn’t need a fence.  Everyone’s treating me like I’m Satan! I’m sorry…. Derek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Derek, I think what Tricia meant (correct me if I’m wrong, of course, > Tricia) was that while yes, accidents do happen, they are preventable. > Dogs do not have to run free in order to be happy dogs, and they should > not run free.  Your unfortunate experience is proof enough of that.  I > know fencing is very expensive, but can you fence a small portion of > your property so that your dog can be safe?  Many breeders would likely > be leery of placing one of their precious babes in your home because the > fate that has unfortunately befallen your dogs is entirely preventable, > though accidental.  I know the rescue group I work with would not think > your situation suitable, though you may well be the best dog dad on > Earth.  Even the best-trained, most consistently responsive, most > reliable off-lead dog on the planet can get run over by a car when > allowed to roam free, and I strongly recommend you reconsider bringing > another dog home unless you can fence at least a small portion of your > property.  I don’t think you want to go through that heartache again. > Tracy Landauer > Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country.  Animals get > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I sound > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. > Derek > > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up > or > > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > for > > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > and > > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

.  Animals get > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. I’m honestly not, I > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen.

Some accidents are waiting to happen, and your love obviously did not and does not include the notion of responsibility. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Derek > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up > or > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > for > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > and > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

> Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or > chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for > these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > run away and I want to keep it off of the road!  I want the dog to be good > mannered and easy to train.  What would be a good dog for these > wants/needs?

The best dog for one that will be permitted to roam free, albeit you "want him to stick around the house" can be found at a major toy store in NYC whose name I have suddenly forgotten (it’s across the street from St. Patrick’s Cathedral on Fifth Avenue). They have stuffed dogs in a variety of breeds. Hasn’t it dawned on you that your behavior is the reason your dog was in a position to be run over? avrama & shomer

Response:

Sorry to hear about your loss – here’s my $.02 on breeds and how to keep them safe: 1) Build a fenced in yard for your dog – no dog should run free while there are cars in America. 2) Find an obedience club or trainer in your area – dog training is something really learned best with hands-on instruction. 3) Go to the pound and pick out a nice dog that needs a home – there’s no specific breed that meets your requirements, so why not get a mutt? Good luck! -Shannon & Guinness — To reply, please remove the anti-spam from the address. Thank you.

Response:

This is a learning place, but sometimes I wonder if newcomers wanting help will hesitate to ask for it if they are immediately come down on so hard.  I am sure Derek loves his dogs, but does not really know the dangers and the risks you take letting a dog run free.  I grew up on a farm so far from town that our dogs did run free for many, many years without any accidents.  When young and newly married I moved to a farm near town our first dog was hit by a car after jumping out of a ditch into the path of a car.  A family near town only recently lost a dog after it ran into the path of a car.  I learned a lesson.  We fenced in a large area.   I loved my dog the best I knew how at the time.  NOW I know better…let’s not jump so quickly on someones feelings, whether they love their dog or not…..better yet educate them in a considerate way.  Doe. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No Derek…..you DIDN’T treat it with all the love you had……if that had > been the case, you would have built a fence or some form of enclosure so any > time you weren’t there to directly supervise the dog, it would have still > been safely kept away from the road. THAT’S all the love you have….when > you love something to keep it safe, even when you aren’t looking at it. > Lois E. > Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country.  Animals get > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I > sound > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. > Derek > > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get > another > > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned > up > or > > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > for > > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and > not > > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > and > > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not run away and I want to keep it off of the road!  I want the dog to be good mannered and easy to train.  What would be a good dog for these wants/needs?           Also, what are some good methods to train dogs to be good mannered and them to know the basic commands?  Is there any good internet sites that would show this?  Also, what age should you really start trying to train the dogs the most?  I know that there are a lot of questions here and any help would be great!  Thank you! Derek Young

Response:

>Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not >run away and I want to keep it off of the road!

This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long and hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country.  Animals get hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over.  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I sound rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. Derek – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up or >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be for >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long and > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

No Derek…..you DIDN’T treat it with all the love you had……if that had been the case, you would have built a fence or some form of enclosure so any time you weren’t there to directly supervise the dog, it would have still been safely kept away from the road. THAT’S all the love you have….when you love something to keep it safe, even when you aren’t looking at it. Lois E.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country.  Animals get > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I sound > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. > Derek > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up > or > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > for > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > and > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

Derek, I think what Tricia meant (correct me if I’m wrong, of course, Tricia) was that while yes, accidents do happen, they are preventable. Dogs do not have to run free in order to be happy dogs, and they should not run free.  Your unfortunate experience is proof enough of that.  I know fencing is very expensive, but can you fence a small portion of your property so that your dog can be safe?  Many breeders would likely be leery of placing one of their precious babes in your home because the fate that has unfortunately befallen your dogs is entirely preventable, though accidental.  I know the rescue group I work with would not think your situation suitable, though you may well be the best dog dad on Earth.  Even the best-trained, most consistently responsive, most reliable off-lead dog on the planet can get run over by a car when allowed to roam free, and I strongly recommend you reconsider bringing another dog home unless you can fence at least a small portion of your property.  I don’t think you want to go through that heartache again. Tracy Landauer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Why do I sound like a troll? I’m not.  I live in the country.  Animals get > hit by cars.  It’s not like I bought a dog on Monday, it got hit on Monday > night and Tuesday I get another one.  I have had a dog for 6 years and it > is a good dog, it even ‘looks both ways’ before crossing the road.  I then > got another one and after having it for a year and a half it got ran over. >  It has been 8 months and I think I want to try again.  Sorry if I sound > rude or anything that you are making me out to be, but I’m honestly not, I > treated that dog with every bit of love that I could, accidents happen. > Derek > >Okay, my dog recently got hit by a car. :[ and am looking to get another > >one. I live in the country so most of the time the dog wont be penned up > or > >chained or anything.  I was just wondering what a good breed would be > for > >these needs.  Of course I want the dog to stick around the house and not > >run away and I want to keep it off of the road! > This sounds like a troll to me. If not, I would recommend you think long > and > hard about getting another dog to get hit by yet another car.

Response:

Question:

Regarding the jumping problem: I would NEVER recommend anyone spray listerine or chloroseptic in their dog’s mouth.  There are many other ways to stop dogs from nipping and biting.  You will really (in my opinion), be teaching the dog that when they come to you for a treat (for whatever reason, whether you have called or not), they get this nasty stuff sprayed in the mouth.  I don’t have any chloroseptic right now, but I would imagine that the chemicals could be at least discomforting and at worst, harmful, to the dog. Look up a good dog behaviorist in your area.  Also, get a book by John Fisher called "Think Dog" or "Why does my dog…".  The latter deals with a host of specific problems, while the former is a general overview of how we can communicate with dogs in a way that they understand. Hope this helps! Robert Sette and "Spotty" and "Lady", a duo of Dalmatians!

Response:

I had problems with my Aussie pup (now 14 months) like this for months. Like the rest of  you I tired all the old standards, knee in the chest etc. I kept reading about the alpha roll here on the list, so decided to try this on her. When she would jump, I would grab her neck and push her to the ground and hold her there until she quit squirming. It has been very effective. The first time, she didn’t jump again for three days. Then it was nearly a week. Today she jumped again, each time she is more hesitant to jump. I repeated putting her on the ground. She didn’t jump again today. I don’t know what effect this will have if we have company. Whether she will just respect me or will stop jumping on everyone? Anyone know the answer to that? Pat S – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ok,  My pup is a year old.  She gets so excited when people come over to > visit.  She has that full body wag, a happy little grunt, and she *jumps* > on people, and ocaasionally *nips* people (out of excitement not > aggression).  I have tried calming her down (she’s too wiggly).  No Luck. > I have tried to ignore her until she sits.  No Luck.  I tried the old > knee in the chest until I found out in theory it doesn’t work.  She is > not mean, but just happy to see other people, but these people don’t like > to come over anymore because of her.  After her initial excitement she is > OK.  She has a thing for ears and watches. > Please advise me on what to do because she does this to us, too. > Jennifer Boyd > Conroe, Tx

Response:

Your dog (and she is just out of puppy-hood) still needs more obedience training, even if she has successfully graduated from a class or two. (Your post didn’t indicate whether she has had formal training.) You should concentrate on "sit" and "stay", and when people come, put her on lead, and *make* her sit and *make* her stay. This will of course take some time. Until then, at least keep her on lead and when she starts to jump up and nip, give her a firm collar correction and tell her to "Calm Down" or "Cool It". Even if you have to virtually hold her down to let people pet her without her going nutzoid. Also, when people come, tell them you are trying to train the pup to be better, to help you by not making a fuss of her and ignoring her until (and unless) she acts reasonably under control. She should eventually get the picture that she gets attention *only* when her four feet are on the ground. Nipping should be specifically corrected, either by gribbing her muzzle or tapping her under the chin, or by a spray of Real-lemon from the little plastic lemon into her mouth, with a firm NO! and NO BITE!. Otherwise she is going to nip someone a little too hard and you will have a real problem. All of this is going to be hard to accomplish when visitors come but ask them to be patient and help by ignoring her. The main points: on lead so you have control; training class to teach you and her better interactions so she will listen and you can "reach" her; ask guests to assist by not increasing her excitement. Good luck! Dals are *very* active and full of energy so you do have some work ahead of you. Just be consistent, and eventually you will be amazed…she is *not* stupid! Gail Mackiernan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok,  My pup is a year old.  She gets so excited when people come over to > visit.  She has that full body wag, a happy little grunt, and she *jumps* > on people, and ocaasionally *nips* people (out of excitement not > aggression).  I have tried calming her down (she’s too wiggly).  No Luck. > I have tried to ignore her until she sits.  No Luck.  I tried the old > knee in the chest until I found out in theory it doesn’t work.  She is > not mean, but just happy to see other people, but these people don’t like > to come over anymore because of her.  After her initial excitement she is > OK.  She has a thing for ears and watches. > Please advise me on what to do because she does this to us, too. > Jennifer Boyd > Conroe, Tx

I’ve heard that a spray bottle filled with part water, part chloroseptic or listerine works nicely for biting.  If the dog lunges at you mouth first, spray the mixture in her mouth– the awful taste will eventually make her think twice about jumping and biting you. As always, check with your VET regarding this advice before administering it. Good luck, Rich

Response:

I see  so many potentially wonderful animals in the pound or animal rescue because of behaviour problems that beg for consistent obedience training.  The pup that jumps and nips an adult, even in joy, becomes a real disaster when it is fully grown and displays the same action toward a child. There are many Dalmation groups on the internet who might direct you to a training program that will fit your needs.  The SPCA and the Humane Society often have inexpensive programs.  Many private trainers will come to your home (they tend to be more expensive and must be researched very carefully).     AKC sponsored dog clubs that offer instructions at reasonable rates are available in most populated communities, Consult the training books at the library.  I wish you good luck with the problem.,   Dalmations are such joyful and clever dogs.   Regina   NJ

Response:

Ok,  My pup is a year old.  She gets so excited when people come over to visit.  She has that full body wag, a happy little grunt, and she *jumps* on people, and ocaasionally *nips* people (out of excitement not aggression).  I have tried calming her down (she’s too wiggly).  No Luck. I have tried to ignore her until she sits.  No Luck.  I tried the old knee in the chest until I found out in theory it doesn’t work.  She is not mean, but just happy to see other people, but these people don’t like to come over anymore because of her.  After her initial excitement she is OK.  She has a thing for ears and watches. Please advise me on what to do because she does this to us, too. Jennifer Boyd Conroe, Tx

Response:

> Ok,  My pup is a year old.  She gets so excited when people come over to > visit.  She has that full body wag, a happy little grunt, and she *jumps* > on people, and ocaasionally *nips* people (out of excitement not > aggression).  I have tried calming her down (she’s too wiggly).  No Luck. > I have tried to ignore her until she sits.  No Luck.  I tried the old > knee in the chest until I found out in theory it doesn’t work.  She is > not mean, but just happy to see other people, but these people don’t like > to come over anymore because of her.  After her initial excitement she is > OK.  She has a thing for ears and watches. > Please advise me on what to do because she does this to us, too.

     I have two Dalmatians, and have not found a way to deal with this, and have tried everything.  I did use the "knee in chest" to keep the dogs off me, which did work… but guests are a different story entirely.  I also make the dogs sit before I will pet them, so when I come home their butts fly up and down with a "look at me sitting" thing.  However, guests always start making cutesy noises to the dogs and such, which just makes them go hyper, jumping and running.  They run around the house like it is a racetrack.  They just have too much energy. Jeff

Response:

Question:

>Sabrina writes the following: >First don’t give you dog anything to chew. >Technically you are endorsing his chewing.<BR>

<BR> *****Sabrina – I note further down in this post that you have aspirations to be a dog trainer.  The above advise is silly.  Dogs NEED to chew.  Restricting them from chewing APPROPRIATE objects is NOT going to teach them to not chew the forbidden things.  How much reading and seminar attending have you done?<BR> <BR> <<.  If you allow your dog to chew a toy  but don’t allow him to chew a shoe your dog will not know the difference. <BR> <BR> Dogs can learn which toys are THEIRS, quite easily.  Give toys that are not like household objects (ie – not an OLD shoe), makes it much easier for them. Giving them a nylabone will not make them confuse it with a shoe.<BR> <BR> >  I am taking a Trainer’s Course >at<BR> >Facility called North American Guard Dog Training which is excellent. >They<BR> >do Guard work and Obedience plus tracking, movie shots, a lot of police >dog<BR> >work, agility, flyball etc.  They even can direct you to Rescue training. ><BR>

<BR> trainer, they lack teaching COMMON SENSE.  After you "pass" their course, you’ll undoubtedly be "certified".  I hope the general public understands that there is no LEGAL certification for dog trainers, and that piece of paper means little.  PLEASE get yourself some "real life" apprenticeship and learning.  You have a long way to go.<BR> <BR> <BR> Janet Boss<BR> Best Friends Dog Obedience<BR> "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"<BR> <BR> "Read your question for the obvious answer"

Response:

>First don’t give you dog anything to chew.  Technically you are endorsing >his chewing.

Huh ? What about the poor thing when its teething ?? My dogs have both been taught to chew appropriate things. Of course the golden learned much faster than the lab is<G>. IMO they need something to chew on to keep their teeth clean and white and especially when they are teething. Can’t you remember when you had molars coming in and how sore that was ? I can’t imagine not letting my dogs chew….on their toys. They can and DO distinguish between good and bad chewies. (Of course, Ceilidh, the lab is going to be a year old on Saturday…..and still occasionally gets into something she’s not supposed to….but that’s my fault and a lab puppy’s nature <G>) I had a lab years ago, Bubba, when I had no idea how to train a dog. I never gave him his own chews when I left him alone…..and we went thru 3 couches,assorted windowsills, and many other items. The only inappropriate thing Rudy has EVER chewed was one tip off of a shoelace when he was about 3 months old. He gets tons of toys to play with. MaryBeth

Response:

First don’t give you dog anything to chew.  Technically you are endorsing his chewing.  Another very tiring method which I have done and it’s not fun is put you dog on leash for 30 days. That means that everytime you leave the room you dog follows with you and if he starts chewing on something you can correct him by a sharp "no" and then give him a command which he knows and praise him for doing it.  This will encourage your dog to please you and it will start a positive bond between the two of you.  If you allow your dog to chew a toy  but don’t allow him to chew a shoe your dog will not know the difference.  Hittng your dog is a form of attention. Essentially you have taught you dog to chew to get attention whether it be positive attention or negative attention.  This is correctable and you can salvage you relationship with  your dog.  I am taking a Trainer’s Course at Facility called North American Guard Dog Training which is excellent.  They do Guard work and Obedience plus tracking, movie shots, a lot of police dog work, agility, flyball etc.  They even can direct you to Rescue training. If you would like to call the Number is (604) 574-9757.  It is located in British Columbia Canada.  Talk to Jane,  she is excellent and she is part owner.  she is not judgmental and very easy to get along with.  You dog does not need to be put down and if you need more help my email address is – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive > chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, > gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his > mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started > slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking > him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, > such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, > and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I > slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was > chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started > urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen > submissive urination. > Keebo knows he’s done wrong.  If he’s chewing a forbidden item, he runs > and hides when he hears me coming, but keeps right on chewing if it’s a > toy.  There’s no question about "to chew or not to chew."  If I haven’t > given it to him, he can’t chew it.  Keebo knows this.   > He is a bright dog, who has learned sit, down, stay, and the basics of > heel, and he often comes when called.   Housebreaking was effortless and > by the book. > He is very affiliative, but evidences separation anxiety.  He will follow > me around from room to room like a shadow.  He barks and/or cries his head > off without ceasing if I’m within his range of vision while he’s tied up > on his cable trolley, for example, if I’m riding the mower or working in > the garden.  This is very irritating to me.  One night a friend baby-sat > him, and he walked from room to room, whining. > Keebo is excessively oral, I think.  If you pet him, he wants to chew your > hand.  If you take him for a walk, he wants to chew your hand.  If you > watch TV with him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you play a game with > him, he wants to chew you. If you go for a ride in the car. . .you get the > picture.  He won’t stop jumping up on you and putting his tongue in your > mouth, eyes, or ears, and he continues these behaviors even when he knows > they are unwelcome. > I live on 20 acres but unfortunately share it with a family with two small > children.  The children’s father is a lawyer who is paranoid about the > possibility of a dog bite.  This family do not want to interact with > Keebo, period.  Keebo runs to their house whenever he sees someone there, > prompting an angry phone call.   > If I can’t extinguish such behaviors, I’m going to have Keebo put to > sleep:  Repeat-offense destructive chewing, jumping on people, trespassing > on the other family’s "territory."  Mainly, I don’t want to be losing my > temper over his recalcitrance.  He could have a good life with me, I > think, walking around with me, chasing rabbits & squirrels, swimming in > the pond, going for rides, sleeping indoors every night, etc., but I’ll > not keep him alive as a prisoner.  My pervious dog exhibited none of these > behavior problems, and I never struck her. > One big question I have is this:  Have I already undermined my > relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby > inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological?  Is this > degree of chewing correctible, or does it represent some conditioning set > from birth?  Unlike my previous dog, Keebo came to me without a twinkle in > his eye–as if he had been mistreated. I accepted him anyway.  Was it a > mistake? > Please help!  And thank you very much. > — > My real mailbox is saulie at centuryinter dot net

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>If during that 15 minutes of horseplay, >he picked up something that he wasn’t supposed to in his mouth (usually a >shoe) he’d get popped with it, and the cycle would start over. He no longer >chews anything but rawhide bones (goes thru em like kleenex!) or his toys… >oh, he also chews on our other dog too

Do you pop him on the nose with the other dog too?  :-) (Sorry) Geoffrey

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Hi, there has been many replies and suggestions so all I have to say is this : When any of my dogs chewed the wrong thing the only reaction was where did I screw up this time? Why did I leave the object where it could reach? Was it dangling enticingly where it said "chew me"? (This happened to a pair of headphones) Why was I not watching it closely? Why didn’t I put the pup in a safe place? You get my drift… Puppies will be puppies and they will want to chew. So besides training and re-directing them…sometimes it’s ourselves that we have to train – to take as much temptation away as possible until the phrase passes. –Delphina

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>>   Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, > such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, >Please tell me this is a troll!!

It’s a troll. C’mon — "Scroop Moth?"  Sheesh! — Mark Shaw (and Maggie)   PGP public key at ftp.netcom.com:/pub/ms/mshaw "A dog is the only animal who has seen his god."           -Anonymous

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> Quote: >  Have I already undermined my > relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby > inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological? > By everything you have done, you’ve ruined your relationship with this poor > dog. And probably his possible relationship with anyone else. > Please see if you can find a loving, informed, home for him. And do NOT get > another dog! > Jane Webb > M&M

Get off yer high horse. Those of us that believe in both positive and negative  instruction are just a good of dog owners as you are. The dog has not been ‘ruined’ in any way, it just needs lots of attention, and lots of toys. To the original poster: I can’t tell you what’s right for your dog, each one is an individual. I can tell you what worked for our habitual chewer. One pop on the snout with whatever he was chewing, and then a period of ‘down stay’ in the same room with us (about 5 minutes). After he was ‘free’, we’d hand him a rawhide or chew toy, play tug of war with him, pour loving affection on him for about 15 minutes. If during that 15 minutes of horseplay, he picked up something that he wasn’t supposed to in his mouth (usually a shoe) he’d get popped with it, and the cycle would start over. He no longer chews anything but rawhide bones (goes thru em like kleenex!) or his toys… oh, he also chews on our other dog too Dave

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>Please tell me this is a troll!! >Cammy

This is a troll. Susan

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"Uh..  The dog doesn’t seem to fear the owner (it just knows what to do to get away with bad doggie behaviors).. the dog still has a desire to be with the owner, etc.      " Uh? Doesn’t seem to fear? I think I saw "cowering in submission somewhere in there…Also, Just because a dog still has a desire to be with an owner doesn’t mean it doesn’t have psych. problems or even dislikes the owner..An abused child will cling to an abusive parent even more to get the love and attention they deserve (and if its only bad attention they get, they will take it).. "Of one who possessed Beauty Without Vanity, Strength Without Insolence, Courage Without Ferocity,                 And All the Virtues of Man Without his Vices…."(Byron)

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zzendod sez: >I’m going to let my lesser subject like Lynn K. and Chinchuba handle this. Nah. If I’m gonna spend time talking to trolls, they should at least be intelligent enough to be somewhat entertaining or it’s just not  worth the aggravation. In short, more like you, Michael. The mentor of trolling. The pinnacle of flamebait. The epitome of annoying. > Maybe some shock collar tips from Suzi could help?

Now, zzenie. You really should remember that the cardinal rule to great electronic training is NEVER to lose your temper. Even if the original post were not merely flamebait, this person  would NOT be a good candidate for electronic training greatness. And now that you mention it, you seem to be getting *your* dander up a lot recently. Reactive, vindictive posts do not bode well upon your candidacy as the technological wiz kid that you claim you *could* be.  Let’s try this again. Take a deep breath… relax…. oooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Susan F.

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> Quote: >  Have I already undermined my > relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby > inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological? > By everything you have done, you’ve ruined your relationship with this poor > dog. And probably his possible relationship with anyone else. > Please see if you can find a loving, informed, home for him. And do NOT get > another dog! > Jane Webb > M&M

I hope the original poster was a troll.  But if not, then I agree with you totally.  As to ruining the dog’s relationship with anyone else, though, I disagree.  We recently rescued a dog who had been even more severely mistreated in his original home for the first two years of his life.  It only took him a few weeks to trust us and display his loving nature.  We have placed him with a family who knows dogs and adores him. I’m happy to report that he is now loving and well behaved.  I’m always amazed by how resilient most dogs are.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->OK,  you say you’ve had a dog before but obviously you don’t know much >about having or handling dogs.  If you can’t control your temper for >something you have NOT taught the dog not to do, you shouldn’t have a dog >(or children for that matter).  Period.   <snip> >Do some training.  Don’t let the dog outside alone if it roams (i.e., to >paranoid lawyer neighbor’s house).  Take the dog out on a leash and start >TRAINING it to stay with you.  A class can show you how. >Even though you abuse this dog, it obviously is attached to you if it >follows you around.  DOGS DO THAT — THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO LIKE BEING WITH >YOU.  This is not a problem or a flaw. >Training a sit/stay can curb the jumping/unwelcome licking stuff.  But you >have to TRAIN the dog — they don’t come preprogrammed.  Again, a class can >help you do this. >If this all seems like too much work, please give the dog up for adoption. >Don’t get another one.  Just because YOU can’t handle him doesn’t mean >someone else can’t.  Putting him down is cruel and selfish — there is >NOTHING wrong with this dog except for an idiot of an owner.

Excellent advice.  Get your head out of your butt and get to class. P.D. Jackson – Canine Behaviorist Canine Behavioral Services http://members.aol.com/K9Behavior/index.html Publisher of "Dog Bytes" – a canine training/behavior/dog tips newsletter

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> Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive > chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, > gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his > mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started > slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking > him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, > such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, > and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I > slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was > chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started > urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen > submissive urination.

Please tell me this is a troll!! Cammy

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Quote: There is a trick, derived from an old trick farmers would use when they had a dog who was a chicken killer. The ole albatross cure! Jane Webb M&M

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>   Ok, you’re going to need help with this, but be forewarned- some people

will be very resentful that your temper has gotten out of hand. I have seen   this sort of behavior before, and I confess…it was me at one time. I lashed out at my dog because I could not control distructive chewing.   Dogs, like kids, are capable of evoking all kinds of feelings in us. These are issues that WE have to deal with before we can effectively deal with difficult situations. It sounds like the initial poster may have an anger-management problem with the dog being the subject of the acting-out. If this be the case, owner has to either independently or with professional support sort out his feelings before he can effectively deal with the dog.

Response:

A fence or overhead run and a nice sized dog crate will resolve most of your problems with the dog’s behavior. You are misinterpreting the dog’s behavior using human reactions as your guide – everyone does it its hard for us not to What your dog is reacting to is your anger and your body posture voice etc when you catch him chewing Most likely instead of ‘knowing’ the chew behavior is wrong he knows that you get insane sometimes when you come home – this scares him into the submissive behavior upon your arrival. Leaving him in a crate when you go out with legal chew toys only means you will come home and NOT need to be angry with him – this will make life nicer for both of you. If he sneaks off to do this when you are home – keep him leashed to you! or gated into the same room with you. I suggest you also plant some ‘chew bait’ (preferably items already destroyed by him<g>) and coat it liberally with Bitter Apple, Sour Grapes or some other such product that tastes awful to allow him to self correct the behavior. Its great that he likes people and is willing to seek them out for companionship. Sure beats a pet who hates people. Because your neighbor does not care for this friendliness a method of keeping the dog from harm through his love of people is your responsibility. A dog pen or a small fenced area for unsupervised potty trips plus plenty of leashed or directed exercise in your company should resolve this. I prefer a fence to a runner as the fence will also fence out those pesky next door kids and keep them away from your dog. Finally remember that young dogs are BURSTING with energy and that a tired dog in most cases is a very good dog Tire your puppy out at least TWICE a day this will in addition to providing social interaction the dog craves also limit the need he has to chew off excess energy Good Luck Nancy emailed as well as posted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive > chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, > gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his > mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started > slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking > him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, > such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, > and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I > slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was > chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started > urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen > submissive urination. > Keebo knows he’s done wrong.  If he’s chewing a forbidden item, he runs > and hides when he hears me coming, but keeps right on chewing if it’s a > toy.  There’s no question about "to chew or not to chew."  If I haven’t > given it to him, he can’t chew it.  Keebo knows this.   > He is a bright dog, who has learned sit, down, stay, and the basics of > heel, and he often comes when called.   Housebreaking was effortless and > by the book. > He is very affiliative, but evidences separation anxiety.  He will follow > me around from room to room like a shadow.  He barks and/or cries his head > off without ceasing if I’m within his range of vision while he’s tied up > on his cable trolley, for example, if I’m riding the mower or working in > the garden.  This is very irritating to me.  One night a friend baby-sat > him, and he walked from room to room, whining. > Keebo is excessively oral, I think.  If you pet him, he wants to chew your > hand.  If you take him for a walk, he wants to chew your hand.  If you > watch TV with him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you play a game with > him, he wants to chew you. If you go for a ride in the car. . .you get the > picture.  He won’t stop jumping up on you and putting his tongue in your > mouth, eyes, or ears, and he continues these behaviors even when he knows > they are unwelcome. > I live on 20 acres but unfortunately share it with a family with two small > children.  The children’s father is a lawyer who is paranoid about the > possibility of a dog bite.  This family do not want to interact with > Keebo, period.  Keebo runs to their house whenever he sees someone there, > prompting an angry phone call.   > If I can’t extinguish such behaviors, I’m going to have Keebo put to > sleep:  Repeat-offense destructive chewing, jumping on people, trespassing > on the other family’s "territory."  Mainly, I don’t want to be losing my > temper over his recalcitrance.  He could have a good life with me, I > think, walking around with me, chasing rabbits & squirrels, swimming in > the pond, going for rides, sleeping indoors every night, etc., but I’ll > not keep him alive as a prisoner.  My pervious dog exhibited none of these > behavior problems, and I never struck her. > One big question I have is this:  Have I already undermined my > relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby > inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological?  Is this > degree of chewing correctible, or does it represent some conditioning set > from birth?  Unlike my previous dog, Keebo came to me without a twinkle in > his eye–as if he had been mistreated. I accepted him anyway.  Was it a > mistake? > Please help!  And thank you very much. > — > My real mailbox is saulie at centuryinter dot net

Response:

> Uh oh. Wait till Zen guy gets a load of this thread!

I’m going to let my lesser subject like Lynn K. and Chinchuba handle this.  It’s something to keep them occupied.  Maybe some shock collar tips from Suzi could help?  This problem is far too easy for me to comment on. I’m busy right now doing important things. The Very Important and Busy King http://changethemuzzle.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Please please please, don’t hit the dog anymore. Please?  Leave the room, count > to ten. Try the bitter apple, it really does work. Please don’t put him to > sleep for chewing inappropriate objects. Find a new owner before doing this. > Get professional help from a trainer. Just please stop hitting the dog. > Suzanne

Response:

You don’t have to hit, for Anubis’s sake!  There is a trick, derived from an old trick farmers would use when they had a dog who was a chicken killer.  Let us suppose your dog has been chewing on a sandal (I had this problem with Dr. Scholl’s sandals).  You look at the damage, bite your tongue (well, one DAMN! is permitted), then calmly take the sandal and hook it to the dog’s collar.  If a book, again tie it about the dog’s neck so it dangles loosely.  No yelling, no screaming . . . just leave the sandal or whatever hanging from the collar for 12-24 hours.  It should GENTLY tap the dog when he moves.  This is not painful, but it is annoying, and does set up an avoidance response not to you– which is what your dog is doing because your response has been excessive–but to whatever it has been chewing. In fact, shortly after fastening the sandal about his collar, invite him to go for a walk. Meanwhile, get a copy of MOTHER KNOWS BEST: THE NATURAL WAY TO TRAIN YOUR DOG, or DOG PROBLEMS, both by Carol Lea Benjamin, or PEOPLE, POOCHES, AND PROBLEMS by Job Michael Evans, or GOOD OWNERS, GREAT DOGS by Brian Kilcommen.  (If you cannot find them through a bookstore near you, you can get them from Cherrybrook, or by SM> mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started SM> slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking SM> him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, SM> such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, SM> and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I SM> slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was SM> chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started SM> urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen SM> submissive urination.     If your "mut" hadn’t a forgiving temperament, he’d take your hand     off the next time you use a belt on him.  Ever hear of overkill?     That’s what you are doing–and ruining a dog in the process. SM> Keebo knows he’s done wrong.  If he’s chewing a forbidden item, he runs SM> and hides when he hears me coming, but keeps right on chewing if it’s a SM> toy.  There’s no question about "to chew or not to chew."  If I haven’t SM> given it to him, he can’t chew it.  Keebo knows this.     Are you saying he has no toys with which he can play (chew) without     having them handed to him by you? SM> He is very affiliative, but evidences separation anxiety.  He will follow SM> me around from room to room like a shadow.  He barks and/or cries his head SM> off without ceasing if I’m within his range of vision while he’s tied up SM> on his cable trolley, for example, if I’m riding the mower or working in SM> the garden.  This is very irritating to me.  One night a friend baby-sat SM> him, and he walked from room to room, whining. SM> SM> Keebo is excessively oral, I think.  If you pet him, he wants to chew your SM> hand.  If you take him for a walk, he wants to chew your hand.  If you SM> watch TV with him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you play a game with SM> him, he wants to chew you. If you go for a ride in the car. . .you get the SM> picture.  He won’t stop jumping up on you and putting his tongue in your SM> mouth, eyes, or ears, and he continues these behaviors even when he knows SM> they are unwelcome.      How does he KNOW those overtures are unwelcome?  Or do you merely      slug him in response?  Sometimes dogs will continue with punished      activities if only to get some response, ANY response from the      owner.  (Yes, children do the same thing.) SM> I live on 20 acres but unfortunately share it with a family with two small SM> children.  The children’s father is a lawyer who is paranoid about the SM> possibility of a dog bite.  This family do not want to interact with SM> Keebo, period.  Keebo runs to their house whenever he sees someone there, SM> prompting an angry phone call. SM> If I can’t extinguish such behaviors, I’m going to have Keebo put to SM> sleep:  Repeat-offense destructive chewing, jumping on people, trespassing SM> on the other family’s "territory."  Mainly, I don’t want to be losing my SM> temper over his recalcitrance.  He could have a good life with me, I SM> think, walking around with me, chasing rabbits & squirrels, swimming in SM> the pond, going for rides, sleeping indoors every night, etc., but I’ll SM> not keep him alive as a prisoner.  My pervious dog exhibited none of these SM> behavior problems, and I never struck her.     Did you ever think of TRAINING him–see the books mentioned above–     and that your previous dog did not exhibit these behavior problems     because you did not strike her? SM> One big question I have is this:  Have I already undermined my SM> relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby SM> inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological?  Is this SM> degree of chewing correctible, or does it represent some conditioning set SM> from birth?  Unlike my previous dog, Keebo came to me without a twinkle in SM> his eye–as if he had been mistreated. I accepted him anyway.  Was it a SM> mistake? .. nfx v2.7 [C0000] If I have but one life to lead, let my lead be on a Dobe

Response:

Alright- here’s the story- this dog is a PUPPY!!!!!  Puppies chew. Puppies ARE very oral.  We could get a thread going here for weeks on what our dogs chewed up as pups.  So, the first thing you have to accept is that chewing is normal for a 6-7 month old pup.  But…You have really done a number here- you started out with a normal pup, and frightened him into being a submissive urinator. Now you have 2 problems instead of 1.  And- depending on the breed, he may not stop being chewy for quite a while. Next time Keebo finds something that you didn’t want to be chewed, here’s what you do- go get a newspaper, roll it up, and hit yourself on the head with it.  Really.  If Keebo is chewing things, then don’t let him have access to them. Keep him in sight, and don’t allow full access to the house. How do you limit access?  Get a crate for when you can’t watch him all the time. Make sure he has lots of toys that he *likes*.  Make sure he gets lots of exercise.  Play games with him and train him to work his mind so that he can relax, and so that he can bond with you and trust you.  You have made him into a nervous wreck, and frankly, chewing is very pacifying. A crate can also be a pacifier- it is for many dogs (not usually at first…)- a safe place for the dog to call it’s own. The other thing to consider, before you ingrain these fears further into this dog, is whether you really want him or not. You have had him for a month.  You apparently do not understand dogs or puppies all that well. This dog is following you around seeking your approval constantly- many dogs are "velcro dogs", for approval, or just because they need/want to be near their person.  This may never change- but- if he is underfoot all of the time- he can’t get into trouble, can he? Although I almost NEVER advise this- perhaps this dog would be better of with another person/family.  The dog is running to the neighbors for love- something he may not be getting from you.  Perhaps you can find a person with a little more patience that can bring out the best in this pup, rather than make him into a fearful, cowering mess.  He’s on his way to that now- and the worse it gets, the less adoptable he becomes. Saxon > Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive > chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, > gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his > mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started > slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking > him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, > such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, > and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I > slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was > chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started > urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen > submissive urination.

  <snipped remainder of letter per: Netscape’s stupid rules>

Response:

OK,  you say you’ve had a dog before but obviously you don’t know much about having or handling dogs.  If you can’t control your temper for something you have NOT taught the dog not to do, you shouldn’t have a dog (or children for that matter).  Period.   If you *are* really interested in correcting the problem, get yourself to an obedience class, read a few books — especially books by Carol Lea Benjamin or Brian Kilcommins, and STOP HITTING THE DOG.  Destructive chewing is an adolescent dog thing.  It passes.  It may take weeks, months or even a year or two depending on the breed of dog.  Confine the dog in a crate while you are away to prevent destruction if you can’t handle it.   Do some training.  Don’t let the dog outside alone if it roams (i.e., to paranoid lawyer neighbor’s house).  Take the dog out on a leash and start TRAINING it to stay with you.  A class can show you how. Even though you abuse this dog, it obviously is attached to you if it follows you around.  DOGS DO THAT — THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO LIKE BEING WITH YOU.  This is not a problem or a flaw. Training a sit/stay can curb the jumping/unwelcome licking stuff.  But you have to TRAIN the dog — they don’t come preprogrammed.  Again, a class can help you do this. If this all seems like too much work, please give the dog up for adoption. Don’t get another one.  Just because YOU can’t handle him doesn’t mean someone else can’t.  Putting him down is cruel and selfish — there is NOTHING wrong with this dog except for an idiot of an owner. — Michelle, Cassie the Lab (aka LittleOne) and JakeyBuddy the GSDx to e-mail, remove the "_"

Response:

Uh oh. Wait till Zen guy gets a load of this thread! Please please please, don’t hit the dog anymore. Please?  Leave the room, count to ten. Try the bitter apple, it really does work. Please don’t put him to sleep for chewing inappropriate objects. Find a new owner before doing this. Get professional help from a trainer. Just please stop hitting the dog. Suzanne

Response:

Quote:  Have I already undermined my relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological? By everything you have done, you’ve ruined your relationship with this poor dog. And probably his possible relationship with anyone else. Please see if you can find a loving, informed, home for him. And do NOT get another dog! Jane Webb M&M

Response:

> Quote: >  Have I already undermined my > relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby > inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological? > By everything you have done, you’ve ruined your relationship with this poor > dog. And probably his possible relationship with anyone else. > Please see if you can find a loving, informed, home for him. And do NOT get > another dog! > Jane Webb > M&M

Uh..  The dog doesn’t seem to fear the owner (it just knows what to do to get away with bad doggie behaviors).. the dog still has a desire to be with the owner, etc. etc.. and if the owner sees that something is wrong, and if the owner can accept that his methods were ineffective and detrimental, then he can change his ways by getting professional help.  Remember that dogs are forgiving creatures.  The worst things the owner could do is give up the dog (it seems likely the dog might be subject to be moving families alot), or put it to sleep.. the best thing he could do is find ways to establish a more stabilized relationship.  Chewing is no reason to put a dog down, and it should be no reason to give the dog up.  Er.. and to the guy who posted the original message.. did you try Bitter Apple?  It works wonders.. spray it on everything he’s likely to chew on (including your hands).  If you ever feel the urge to strike the dog.. STOP!  The dog has no sense of guilt, and will not learn a thing.. the last thing it’ll remember before being stricken is your hand raised in the air, not the actions that the dog perpetrated beforehand.  Soon enough, it’ll get so afraid of your hand, when you try to raise your hand to throw a tennis ball, he’ll run away, and never come back.  If you have to make a correction, don’t let him know that you’re responsible for the correction.   Sometimes a "penny can" (an empty soda can filled with pennies), thrown in the vicinity of the dog (not AT it), is good in startling the dog, and it’ll associate whatever bad behavior it was doing with the annoying and freaky clang of the can. + +  = [-]

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Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  This morning I slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen submissive urination. Keebo knows he’s done wrong.  If he’s chewing a forbidden item, he runs and hides when he hears me coming, but keeps right on chewing if it’s a toy.  There’s no question about "to chew or not to chew."  If I haven’t given it to him, he can’t chew it.  Keebo knows this.   He is a bright dog, who has learned sit, down, stay, and the basics of heel, and he often comes when called.   Housebreaking was effortless and by the book. He is very affiliative, but evidences separation anxiety.  He will follow me around from room to room like a shadow.  He barks and/or cries his head off without ceasing if I’m within his range of vision while he’s tied up on his cable trolley, for example, if I’m riding the mower or working in the garden.  This is very irritating to me.  One night a friend baby-sat him, and he walked from room to room, whining. Keebo is excessively oral, I think.  If you pet him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you take him for a walk, he wants to chew your hand.  If you watch TV with him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you play a game with him, he wants to chew you. If you go for a ride in the car. . .you get the picture.  He won’t stop jumping up on you and putting his tongue in your mouth, eyes, or ears, and he continues these behaviors even when he knows they are unwelcome. I live on 20 acres but unfortunately share it with a family with two small children.  The children’s father is a lawyer who is paranoid about the possibility of a dog bite.  This family do not want to interact with Keebo, period.  Keebo runs to their house whenever he sees someone there, prompting an angry phone call.   If I can’t extinguish such behaviors, I’m going to have Keebo put to sleep:  Repeat-offense destructive chewing, jumping on people, trespassing on the other family’s "territory."  Mainly, I don’t want to be losing my temper over his recalcitrance.  He could have a good life with me, I think, walking around with me, chasing rabbits & squirrels, swimming in the pond, going for rides, sleeping indoors every night, etc., but I’ll not keep him alive as a prisoner.  My pervious dog exhibited none of these behavior problems, and I never struck her. One big question I have is this:  Have I already undermined my relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological?  Is this degree of chewing correctible, or does it represent some conditioning set from birth?  Unlike my previous dog, Keebo came to me without a twinkle in his eye–as if he had been mistreated. I accepted him anyway.  Was it a mistake? Please help!  And thank you very much. — My real mailbox is saulie at centuryinter dot net

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  Ok, you’re going to need help with this, but be forewarned- some people will be very resentful that your temper has gotten out of hand. I have seen this sort of behavior before, and I confess…it was me at one time. I lashed out at my dog because I could not control distructive chewing.  Is it too late to repair damage done to your relationship with your dog? I don’t know. Mend your ways, learn what you need to about dog behavior, and you might be able to salvage your dog.

: Almost every day.  Twice today.  Alwalys the same thing: destructive : chewing. At first, I just took the inappropriate item out of his mouth, : gave him a chew toy, and praised him for taking the correct item into his : mouth.  I dog-proofed my house as much as possible.  Then I started : slapping him under the chin for repeat offenses, then really whacking : him.  Eventually, I staarted hitting him with whatever he was chewing, : such as sandals.  This 6/7 month-old mut has lived with me for a month, : and the behavior seems to be getting worse, not better.  Yes. The distructive chewing is getting worse, not better. Hitting the dog is not making it better. Your dog does not associate getting hit with chewing.  You will have to restrain your dog when you are not there to supervise. Crate him, or put in a dog run or pen for him. :  This morning I : slapped his nose several times, hard, with the leather belt he was : chewing.  Tonight, when I caught him chewing a hat, he cowered and started : urinating in anticipation of punishment,the first time I’ve seen : submissive urination.  How sad for both of you. : Keebo knows he’s done wrong.  No, he doesn’t. He pees and shies away because he’s scared of you. :  If he’s chewing a forbidden item, he runs : and hides when he hears me coming, but keeps right on chewing if it’s a : toy.  There’s no question about "to chew or not to chew."  If I haven’t : given it to him, he can’t chew it.  Keebo knows this.    Hey, he’s just a dog. Many people don’t have much in the way of impulse control. : He is a bright dog, who has learned sit, down, stay, and the basics of : heel, and he often comes when called.   Housebreaking was effortless and : by the book.  He sounds like he had many good qualities. Distructive chewing is unconnected with intelligence. : He is very affiliative, but evidences separation anxiety.  He will follow : me around from room to room like a shadow.  As a good dog should! If you don’t like having a dog that bonds so closely with you, consider placing the animal with someone who likes that sort of thing. He sounds as if he has the potential to be a wonderful companion to the right person. It may or may not be you. Don’t take it personally. The person and dog need to have personalities that match up in some way. :  He barks and/or cries his head : off without ceasing if I’m within his range of vision while he’s tied up : on his cable trolley, for example, if I’m riding the mower or working in : the garden.  This is very irritating to me.  One night a friend baby-sat : him, and he walked from room to room, whining.  This is really starting to sound like he’s the wrong dog for you. You might do better with a more independent type. : Keebo is excessively oral, I think.  If you pet him, he wants to chew your : hand.  If you take him for a walk, he wants to chew your hand.  If you : watch TV with him, he wants to chew your hand.  If you play a game with : him, he wants to chew you. If you go for a ride in the car. . .you get the : picture.  He won’t stop jumping up on you and putting his tongue in your : mouth, eyes, or ears, and he continues these behaviors even when he knows : they are unwelcome.  Keebo is very nervous. He has a strong desire to please. Mouthing and licking are ways that dogs show connection. The more insecure he feels, the more this dog is likely to lick.  It’s like an insecure person apologizing all the time. It can get annoying, but the more scared you make the person, the more they’ll apologize. : I live on 20 acres but unfortunately share it with a family with two small : children.  The children’s father is a lawyer who is paranoid about the : possibility of a dog bite.  This family do not want to interact with : Keebo, period.  Keebo runs to their house whenever he sees someone there, : prompting an angry phone call.    Keebo is very lonely and just wants to be their pal. He wants to be anyone’s pal, but is scared of you. You hit him. : If I can’t extinguish such behaviors, I’m going to have Keebo put to : sleep:  Repeat-offense destructive chewing, jumping on people, trespassing : on the other family’s "territory."  Mainly, I don’t want to be losing my : temper over his recalcitrance. No, certainly you don’t want a dog that is ticking you off repeatedly. You can train out some of the excessive behaviors. You can manage his running to the children. You will never change his basic personality. If you don’t actually like him, give someone else a chance to like him. :  He could have a good life with me, I : think, walking around with me, chasing rabbits & squirrels, swimming in : the pond, going for rides, sleeping indoors every night, etc., but I’ll : not keep him alive as a prisoner.  My pervious dog exhibited none of these : behavior problems, and I never struck her.  You’re not required to keep a dog that you don’t enjoy. : One big question I have is this:  Have I already undermined my : relationship with this dog by stricking him a number of times, thereby : inflicting a certain amount of abuse, mainly psychological?  Is this : degree of chewing correctible, or does it represent some conditioning set : from birth?  Unlike my previous dog, Keebo came to me without a twinkle in : his eye–as if he had been mistreated. I accepted him anyway.  Was it a : mistake?  You were kind to accept him. You gave it a shot. It just doesn’t seem to be the best sitation for either of you.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >She broke the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me, >Here’s part of your problem, Ludwig.  She had already broken one >command by not staying, eh?  Then you immediately gave her *another* >command, to "come," and she broke that one, too, eh? >By giving her another command after she’d just broken one, you made it >virtually impossible for you to "correct" her EFFECTIVELY for her >misbehavior. >Deal with *one* violation at a time.  And deal with it *immediately.* >Otherwise your dog will never figure out what she’s actually being >"corrected" for.

Yes, of course.  I see.  I have to keep that in mind. >I suspect she was just trying to get by you, to escape, etc.  She >wasn’t trying to intimidate you, she was just giving you the FINGER.

Probably.  She just had the same look in her eye that she gets when she goes after cats. >And hopefully your "conversation" with her was strong enough to make >her understand that you’re just *not* going to tolerate her >DISOBEDIENCE.

I believe it was.  She does know the commands.  You were correct when you said it was ridiculous to be afraid of her recall or really of any other off-leash commands.  I’m just not used to such willful disobedience from a dog and don’t have so much experience in dealing with it. >That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have >been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s >with her owner, not me).   >[...] >Getting away with murder, Ludwig, is a self-perpetuating force.  The >more often she gets away with something, the more often she’ll try >something.

I think that’s the crux of the problem, her owner has let her get away with things since puppyhood.  She has tried to do some training, but Emily does give her the finger quite often and the owner’s corrections are at best, ineffective. I’ve always thought that made off-leash obedience with me somewhat less than fully effective, though I suppose it really shouldn’t.  She’s perfect on-leash for me, there’s no reason she shouldn’t be just as good off-leash for me, regardless of how she is with her owner. Still, in the past month, she has become more dominant – marking, territorial barking, rushing other dogs.  She apparently scared the hell out of a lady with a little Pekingese the other night.  Emily’s starting to get quite a reputation. The owner is a nice lady, but as you might put it, a clueless doofus in regard to dog training.   Any tips on dealing with doofus owners? Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Thanks for a very helpful post, Dogman.

You bet.  And thanks for the thanks. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

> >I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having >been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve >found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if >I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s >’attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away. > IK, if you’ve got her on a collar and 30 ft. cord, how in the hell > does is she able to play "keep away"? > Why don’t you just REEL HER IN? > Are you using a training book, video, what?

Its "LK" not "IK", and if you reread my post, you will note that I said she "can’t do keep away" which was in response to someone else who said their dog does keep away. My methods are working great. My dog does know sit, stay, down, down-stay,, and she’s getting to be very reliable with come.

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Its "LK" not "IK", and if you reread my post, you will note that >I said she "can’t do keep away" which was in response to someone >else who said their dog does keep away. My methods are working great. >My dog does know sit, stay, down, down-stay,, and she’s getting >to be very reliable with come.

Okay, "LK," pardon me for trying to help you. :>( — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >[...] >How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t >’remind’ them and they start to play keep away.   >The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result. >It wasn’t because of the aversive, Ludwig, it was because of the dog’s >DISOBEDIENCE.   >He was telling you, "Hey, I’ll come whenever I’m good and ready!"   >He was giving you the FINGER, Ludwig.

Yes, I believe that was the attitude she was conveying. <Snip> >It wasn’t the method, Ludwig.  The dog was probably just giving you >the Finger.  Dog’s *do* that, you know?

Perhaps, but this was before I read Koehler and understood the importance and the role of praise.   At that point I had kind of trained two dogs and thought I was hot stuff.  I have learned a little bit since then.  It would probably not happen now.  Of course anything I did was an improvement over her owner, this was an eleven month old Lab that didn’t even know how to ‘Sit’. >Perhaps you spooked the dog with your demeanor on the way out there, >but so what?  You *still* must walk the dog down and get the message >across that you simply will not tolerate disobedience to this command. >Yes, even if you have to walk her down right into the next county! >And if you do this correctly once, the chances are great that you >won’t ever have to do it twice. >Curing "keep away" is pretty easy to do, Ludwig, if you will just make >up your mind that you’re not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. >TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but >CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they?

By coincidence there were a few consequences today.  A situation presented itself where I figured she would break a command (kids and a ball).  She broke the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me, that’s a BIG distraction for her, still, yes, she does know better, she has obeyed before in that situation.  In effect, she gave me the ‘finger’.  It was in a large apartment hallway so walking her down was easy.  When she found she was trapped, the little bitch actually had the audacity to charge/rush me trying to intimidate or get by me.  We had a little conversation. That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s with her owner, not me).  Somebody was saying how aggressive Emily (Lab) was towards her dog when she realized Emily was in a ‘Down-Stay’ with me ignoring her dog.  She didn’t even recognize Emily.  The episodes have happened in the past month, since she’s turned three.  Emily has never tried to intimidate me before, that was a new behavior.  It would appear that her maturity has given her some ‘balls’.  I would anticipate this will add a new dimension to working with her, it should be interesting to see. Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Well, we have been using a long (30 foot) leash so that she is >always within our control.  We also have been practicing our recalls >on our 100 ft run.  

How long have you been TEACHING her the "come" command, IL And please describe this 100 foot "run" of yours, eh? >I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having >been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve >found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if >I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s >’attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away.

IK, if you’ve got her on a collar and 30 ft. cord, how in the hell does is she able to play "keep away"? Why don’t you just REEL HER IN? Are you using a training book, video, what? — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: [...] >TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but >CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they? >By coincidence there were a few consequences today.  A situation presented >itself where I figured she would break a command (kids and a ball).  She broke >the Stay command and ignored a Come – didn’t really surprise me,

Here’s part of your problem, Ludwig.  She had already broken one command by not staying, eh?  Then you immediately gave her *another* command, to "come," and she broke that one, too, eh? By giving her another command after she’d just broken one, you made it virtually impossible for you to "correct" her EFFECTIVELY for her misbehavior. Deal with *one* violation at a time.  And deal with it *immediately.* Otherwise your dog will never figure out what she’s actually being "corrected" for. >that’s a BIG >distraction for her, still, yes, she does know better, she has obeyed before in >that situation.  In effect, she gave me the ‘finger’.  It was in a large >apartment hallway so walking her down was easy.  When she found she was trapped, >the little bitch actually had the audacity to charge/rush me trying to >intimidate or get by me.  We had a little conversation.

I suspect she was just trying to get by you, to escape, etc.  She wasn’t trying to intimidate you, she was just giving you the FINGER. And hopefully your "conversation" with her was strong enough to make her understand that you’re just *not* going to tolerate her DISOBEDIENCE. >That little episode kind of made me wonder though, people in the apartment have >been telling me how aggressive she’s getting towards people and dogs (when she’s >with her owner, not me).  

[...] Getting away with murder, Ludwig, is a self-perpetuating force.  The more often she gets away with something, the more often she’ll try something. >Emily has never tried to intimidate me before, that was a new behavior. >It would appear that her maturity has given >her some ‘balls’.  I would anticipate this will add a new dimension to working >with her, it should be interesting to see.

I think you’re still reading her wrong, Ludwig.  She’s not trying to intimidate you.  She’s just giving you the FINGER. You can’t give this kind of dog *any* slack at all. — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd > But what do you do when she refuses to come? > Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? > Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her > disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable > off-leash. >You bet!  We use a long lead line for recall work now,

You were supposed to use the long line (longe) FIRST, eh? >and when she >doesn’t come, we walk to her, and give her a collar check, with ‘bad >dog’ and then we walk backwards, with the lead in hand, demonstrating >the good dog behavior.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo! IK, does your dog understand the "sit-stay" or "sit" command? If so, and while on one end of a slack 30  foot cord, have your dog "sit." Give him a while to settle in, say 15-30 seconds, and *then* give him the "come" command.  For example, say "Fido, come!" But don’t wait for him to come of his own volition! Just start REELING him in, hand over hand. When you get him to within a foot or two of in front of you, command him to "sit," again.  Correct him with the leash in the standard way if he doesn’t "sit." But *never* do this with your dog off leash until he’s already 100% reliable ON LEASH — okay? > If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a > stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, > wouldn’t you? >There is so much evidence to this fact dogman.  How many jerks out >there drive 40-50 miles an hour down a road that passes through a >thickly settled residential neighborhood.  No consequences – therefore, >repeated behavior until it becomes standard behavior.

IK, get William Koehler’s book, The Koehler Method of Dog Training. It’s absolutely the *best* one there is for training the RECALL.  (And a lot of other things, too.) Yes, a virtually 100% reliable recall. Try it, you’ll see. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

Response:

[snip] >If a dog has shown that he understands the command by fully complying >with it, say, a couple dozen times, he *knows* the command, he’s just >giving you the Finger if he then decides not to comply. >And whenever a dog gives you the Finger, it’s time for some >CONSEQUENCES. >Of course, your demeanor has to be appropriate, too, otherwise you >*can* spook the dog.  It’s *not* time to start screaming or cussing >or yelling or looking exasperated, etc., when he refuses, either.

Any of those things will keep you from getting close enough.  :-)   >Give the command ONE time, if he refuses, *immediately* start to walk >out there matter-of-factly, remaining quiet and calm *until* you get >out there.  Just bear down on him like a heat-seeking missile.

I love this image.   >Do NOT wait for him to change his mind and start back on his own! >Then, when you get out there, throw something at him or grab him by >the collar and drag him back to where you originally gave the command. >On the way back, you bet, that’s when a little "Come to Jesus" >commentary will help to make the dog realize that you’re just not >going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. >The manner in which you drag the dog back will of course depend on >the kind of dog you’re dealing with.  

A *vital* point.  With some, a pissed and disgusted look is effective. With a bonehead , you have to get their *attention*! >A soft dog doesn’t really need any rough handling, >while some dogs may need to be dragged back kicking >and screaming, *if* that’s what it takes.  

Always hard to keep a straight face, recalling some of these drags.  :-) >You can’t be squeamish about this, Ludwig.  Again, this command can >someday save a dog’s life, eh? >He *must* be 100% reliable on the recall.  Period.

Which is why the Coonies are still on lead in most situations, and why E-collar training – for *me* – is on my fall agenda.   I have gotten them to the point where they are 98% reliable, working one on one.  Girl Coonhound broke when camping in Death Valley last spring.  She faced consequences – she stayed on tie out and lead for the remainder of that trip, except at night when she invariably stays close to her pack (me). Boy Coonhound tends to spend more time with Daddy, and I expend a lot of time undoing what he has(n’t) done.  I think this post will be very helpful to him to give him a clear and coherent method to enforce the recall.  Right now, his command for come sounds like this: "Bad Dog!"   On the third, and loudest repetition, Wayward Hayward returns sheepishly.  :-)  Kinda cute, but sloppy.  Very sloppy. Thanks for a very helpful post, Dogman. Cyntyra

Response:

> But what do you do when she refuses to come? > Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? > Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her > disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable > off-leash.

You bet!  We use a long lead line for recall work now, and when she doesn’t come, we walk to her, and give her a collar check, with ‘bad dog’ and then we walk backwards, with the lead in hand, demonstrating the good dog behavior. When she does come, even if its via being pulled with the leash line, we do praise her lots and lots! > If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a > stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, > wouldn’t you?

There is so much evidence to this fact dogman.  How many jerks out there drive 40-50 miles an hour down a road that passes through a thickly settled residential neighborhood.  No consequences – therefore, repeated behavior until it becomes standard behavior. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: [...] >How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t >’remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  

I’ve had dogs do that, too, Ludwig, but I’ve never had a dog do it to me TWICE.   Again, you just stay at it, you walk or run them down, and then you make them wish they hadn’t disobeyed. With the advent of the e-collar, though, my running and walking days are over.  That’s why I LOVE the e-collar so much. Of course, I have also gained a few pounds… :>( >The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result.

It wasn’t because of the aversive, Ludwig, it was because of the dog’s DISOBEDIENCE.   He was telling you, "Hey, I’ll come whenever I’m good and ready!"   He was giving you the FINGER, Ludwig. >I decided it was a combination of not enough training and the aversives

[...] It *may* have been not enough training, but that’s highly unlikely, especially in your case, Ludwig. You probably did a fine job of TEACHING him the command. If a dog has shown that he understands the command by fully complying with it, say, a couple dozen times, he *knows* the command, he’s just giving you the Finger if he then decides not to comply. And whenever a dog gives you the Finger, it’s time for some CONSEQUENCES. Of course, your demeanor has to be appropriate, too, otherwise you *can* spook the dog.  It’s *not* time to start screaming or cussing or yelling or looking exasperated, etc., when he refuses, either.   Give the command ONE time, if he refuses, *immediately* start to walk out there matter-of-factly, remaining quiet and calm *until* you get out there.  Just bear down on him like a heat-seeking missile. Do NOT wait for him to change his mind and start back on his own! Then, when you get out there, throw something at him or grab him by the collar and drag him back to where you originally gave the command. On the way back, you bet, that’s when a little "Come to Jesus" commentary will help to make the dog realize that you’re just not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. The manner in which you drag the dog back will of course depend on the kind of dog you’re dealing with.  A soft dog doesn’t really need any rough handling, while some dogs may need to be dragged back kicking and screaming, *if* that’s what it takes.   You can’t be squeamish about this, Ludwig.  Again, this command can someday save a dog’s life, eh? He *must* be 100% reliable on the recall.  Period. >>How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >>command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? >Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve >trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good >trainers from the also-rans. >Ah, well you’ve got me on that one.  You’ve been doing this longer than I’ve >been alive.  Two and a half years training can’t compare to what? – four and a >half decades or something like that?  

Almost four decades, Ludwig.  But you’re in the ballpark.   *You,* Ludwig, are a good enough trainer to know when a dog has learned a command, I know *that* much.  You probably just don’t feel comfortable dealing with the CONSEQUENCES of a dog’s *disobedience.* You’ve got to get over that, Ludwig.   >You are getting up there aren’t you?

Thanks for reminding me, Ludwig.  :>( [...] >And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of >praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too. >Perhaps that is what I missed (the praise), it’s been a while so I’m not sure. >Or perhaps I was over optimistic on her training.  Still, the result made me >somewhat hesitant to use such methods

It wasn’t the method, Ludwig.  The dog was probably just giving you the Finger.  Dog’s *do* that, you know? Perhaps you spooked the dog with your demeanor on the way out there, but so what?  You *still* must walk the dog down and get the message across that you simply will not tolerate disobedience to this command. Yes, even if you have to walk her down right into the next county! And if you do this correctly once, the chances are great that you won’t ever have to do it twice. >(throwing something in this case).  I >would consider her reliable with me now now, though I don’t push the issue.  

See?  You’re AFRAID of her recall!  That’s absurd, Ludwig. Either she’s trained, or she ain’t. >Of course I can always blame any problem on the owner (a friend), the dog did come >with a few difficulties built in, including keep away.  

[...] Curing "keep away" is pretty easy to do, Ludwig, if you will just make up your mind that you’re not going to tolerate DISOBEDIENCE. TEACHING should always be done in the most positive way possible, but CONSEQUENCES aren’t meant to be positive — are they? :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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ou deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t > ‘remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  The one time I tried to use > aversive consequences, I got that result.  I decided it was a combination of not > enough training and the aversives and quite literally went back to square one in > training.  And then of course, decided not to do that again.

Well, we have been using a long (30 foot) leash so that she is always within our control.  We also have been practicing our recalls on our 100 ft run.  I’m definitely a newbie at this, only having been training my dog since november (when we got her), but i’ve found that when correcting her for not coming, it works better if I walk up to her and have her collar or leash or whatever she’s ‘attached’ to in hand, so she can’t do keep away.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd >says: >And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to >satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any >consequences would have a negative effect on the recall. >No, they don’t at all, Ludwig.  I PROMISE you that, okay?  But they >have to be applied correctly and timely, too. >Once the dog knows what he’s supposed to do, he should do it.  Period. >And when he doesn’t, he should be "reminded" that he *is*going to do >it — one way or the other. >Of course, the manner of "reminder" that you give the dog is very >important.   >You’d surely never want to "remind" a dog *while* he was making any >attempt at all to come to you, but if he’s turned totally deaf on you, >and you absolutely know that he’s *heard* you, it’s time for a >"reminder."

How do you deal with a dog that decides if you can’t catch them, you can’t ‘remind’ them and they start to play keep away.  The one time I tried to use aversive consequences, I got that result.  I decided it was a combination of not enough training and the aversives and quite literally went back to square one in training.  And then of course, decided not to do that again.   >How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? >Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve >trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good >trainers from the also-rans.

Ah, well you’ve got me on that one.  You’ve been doing this longer than I’ve been alive.  Two and a half years training can’t compare to what? – four and a half decades or something like that?  You are getting up there aren’t you? >What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon >the recall command and how would you apply them? >You give the dog one chance to comply.  ONE.  Period. >Then you can simply walk (or run) out there, that is, GO GET HIM >before he ever has a chance to change his mind of his own volition and >THROW something (e.g., a throw chain) at him.  Then walk him back to >the same spot where you issued the command. >And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of >praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too.

Perhaps that is what I missed (the praise), it’s been a while so I’m not sure. Or perhaps I was over optimistic on her training.  Still, the result made me somewhat hesitant to use such methods (throwing something in this case).  I would consider her reliable with me now now, though I don’t push the issue.  Of course I can always blame any problem on the owner (a friend), the dog did come with a few difficulties built in, including keep away.  Perhaps it was my training that I was over optimistic on, not the dogs’. Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Shannon writes:

:Now if I could just get the bicycles to stop :"buzzing" us and scaring the dog, we’d be in :perfect harmony! Bikers who buzz dogs that they can’t possibly have not seen well in advance of the buzzing have no grounds to complain about anything the dog does in response. But dog owners are still advised to restrain their dogs – and pray for pot holes. JohnR

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>But what do you do when she refuses to come? >Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? >Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her >disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable >off-leash. >If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a >stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, >wouldn’t you?

Yes, but consequences shouldn’t come in before the command is fully learned, yes?  And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any consequences would have a negative effect on the recall. Whenever I had difficulties with recall, I would back up and eliminate one of the difficulty factors – dogs, other distractions, distance or location.  Recall is one of the few things I have not used some sort of aversives or consequences with because I was never really sure how, when or what to apply. How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying? What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon the recall command and how would you apply them? Ludwig Smith Dog FAQ’s http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd says: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But what do you do when she refuses to come? >Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? >Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her >disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable >off-leash. >If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a >stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, >wouldn’t you? >Yes, but consequences shouldn’t come in before the command is fully learned, >yes?  

Absolutely, Ludwig.  I got the impression from this person’s post that she *had* been working with the dog for some time on the recall and assumed that the dog probably was just *refusing* to come because it never had to suffer any consequences for *not* coming. I think it’s time that it did. >And particularly for the recall command.  I’ve never really been able to >satisfactorily figure out using aversives/consequences for not coming.  Any >consequences would have a negative effect on the recall.

No, they don’t at all, Ludwig.  I PROMISE you that, okay?  But they have to be applied correctly and timely, too. Once the dog knows what he’s supposed to do, he should do it.  Period. And when he doesn’t, he should be "reminded" that he *is*going to do it — one way or the other. Of course, the manner of "reminder" that you give the dog is very important.   You’d surely never want to "remind" a dog *while* he was making any attempt at all to come to you, but if he’s turned totally deaf on you, and you absolutely know that he’s *heard* you, it’s time for a "reminder." >Whenever I had difficulties with recall, I would back up and eliminate one of >the difficulty factors – dogs, other distractions, distance or location.  Recall >is one of the few things I have not used some sort of aversives or consequences >with because I was never really sure how, when or what to apply. >How do you recognize when the dog is fully cognizant of the meaning of the >command and thus ready for the consequences of not obeying?

Well, that’s the tricky part, of course.  And the more dogs you’ve trained, the less tricky it becomes.  This is what separates the good trainers from the also-rans. Again, it would depend on the dog, how quickly the dog has learned other commands, etc.  Mostly it’s just common sense and experience. >What sort of consequences can you apply without having a negative effect upon >the recall command and how would you apply them?

Well, Ludwig, I normally train with an e-collar.  So I can issue "reminders" from up to a mile or so away, eh?  But you don’t need an e-collar to do this, of course. You give the dog one chance to comply.  ONE.  Period. Then you can simply walk (or run) out there, that is, GO GET HIM before he ever has a chance to change his mind of his own volition and THROW something (e.g., a throw chain) at him.  Then walk him back to the same spot where you issued the command. Or, you can just slip your leash on him and drag him back to exactly where you gave the command.  Yes, forcibly, if necessary.  And you should *talk* to him *all* the way back, too, (you can talk to him in any language you prefer…German is very effective, {:>O) letting him know just how unhappy you were with his *disobedience.* And when you finally get him back to that spot, give him a lot of praise.  If you’ve been working with food, give him a treat, too. Ludwig, as I’ve said here ad nauseam, the *recall* is the *most* important command that you will *ever* teach any dog.  And it would behove a trainer to treat it that way.  That is, you can *never* allow even a little slack on *this* command.  None.  Nada.  Zilch. He *must* comply with it — one way or the other. It might even save his life someday, eh? Summary: 1.) Use nothing but positive reinforcement to TEACH him the "come" command, beginning as early as possible.  The earlier the better. 2.) Gradually lengthen the distances, add distractions, etc., until you’re absolutely certain that he *understands* the command. 3.) Then INSIST that the dog comply — one way or the other. :>) — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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Thought you would like to see how cyclists see all too many dogs and dog owners.  Any comments??  If so, please cross post. Robert From rec.bicycles.misc 1. You know, sometimes it totally amazes me how people with dogs will react to cyclists… I was riding with a friend of mine a couple days ago in a city park here in Portland. There are places for dogs to go offleash, which is cool, however cyclists are NOT restricted from them.  My friend was riding her offroad bike and I was riding my touring bike. She met me at the top of the hill and was very upset because when she road through this area, there was a woman and her two dogs walking through and one of the dogs went completely berserk, ran up to her on her bike as she was riding by (some 20 or more feet away) and bit her.  When my friend reacted, the woman said "That’s what you get for riding in the leash-free area"  !!!! Unbelievable! First of all, a dog that runs up to anyone and bites is a menace… but what kind of neanderthal cretin-like  response is that????  Like she deserved the bite simply because she was in that "dog’s" space!  I suppose this woman thinks that a dog can do anything it wants and that she is not responsible for such things – I’ll laugh my ass off when she gets sued by a child’s parent because her "dog" attached that child who happened to be standing nearby – I guess she’ll say, "that’s what you get for being 3 feet tall around my dog!" It just astounds me.  Barking and growling dogs can be very disconcerting, but since its never happened to me that a dog has run up and attempted to bite me while I was riding by, its never occurred to me that it could or would happen – however now I have another thing to think about while I’m out….   Animals that are dangerous to people should not be allowed around people – to me its simply an issue of this.   Just my venting! Anna 2. I’ve had more than one experience like that. And it is amazing that the owner usually just stands there and looks. Now I don’t wait to get bit, I get off my bike (if the dog is threateningly close) with my air pump and start swinging and yelling at the dog AND the owner. The couple of times I’ve hit a dog the owner will threaten to call the police and I’ll pull out my cell phone and offer to dial it for them. So far there’s been no takers.         Skid ( I miss my dog) 3. Well, fortunately it’s not common where we now live.  When we lived in small-town Georgia, though, it was very common to be chased by dogs, and it was amazingly common for dog owners to get angry when we defended ourselves by using Halt dog spray or other measures. Dog owners can be weird indeed.  My wife and I were walking the trails in the village woods, where signs call for dogs to be under control at all times.  A little 10 pound cur was being walked by two middle aged ladies. The dog saw us, began snarling and barking and ran right for us.  I kicked it away, upon which it ran yipping back.  The owner was furious and growled "OOOHH, I could SHOOT you!!" >Just my venting!

Sometimes you’ve got to do that!  Don’t be afraid of the dogs.   Don’t let them get under your front wheel, and don’t be afraid to show them who’s boss.  Also, don’t be afraid to call the cops on people like that dog owner. — 4. I’m a dog-lover, who owns three dogs and a cyclist. I would never allow my friendly, excited dogs, who never bite, access to anyone passing by, whether they were in cars, walking, or on bikes. It’s not fair to the people OR the dogs. Who wants to be scared by a dog rushing toward you, whether they bite or not? And what friendly, curious dog deserves to be shot with mace, or injured? I carry mace in a webbed pocket off my handlebar bag at all times and if I even notice a dog eyeing me, I put it in the "on" position, ready to shoot. In addition, I have a good-sized pump at the ready which could be used to swing at an attacking dog. I’ve never used the pump, though I have used the spray several times. It has worked well and I’ve never been bitten. I also don’t spray tiny dogs because I’m afraid it could really hurt them and they can’t hurt me anyway, as long as I make sure they don’t get under my wheel. I also often cross to the other side of the road to show the dog that I have no intention of getting in its yard, and walk away slowly while keeping an eye on the dog. Usually this works.

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*snip* >leash-free area"  !!!! Unbelievable! First of all, a dog that runs up >to >anyone and bites is a menace… but what kind of neanderthal >cretin-like  response is that????  Like she deserved the bite simply >because she was in that "dog’s" space!  I suppose this woman thinks >that >a dog can do anything it wants and that she is not responsible for >such >things – I’ll laugh my ass off when she gets sued by a child’s parent >because her "dog" attached that child who happened to be standing >nearby >- I guess she’ll say, "that’s what you get for being 3 feet tall >around >my dog!"

*snip* >Animals that are dangerous to people should not be allowed around >people >- to me its simply an issue of this.   >Just my venting! >Anna

*snip* I agree heartily with this.  Leash-free area or not, the owner of an aggressive dog has *NO* business letting her dog off leash in a public place.  People like this are the reason so many parks do NOT allow leash-free areas, and many no longer allow dogs at all.   Denna Lasik Bored?  Nothing better to do with your time? Then come see my Completely Useless Webpage! there’s some new stuff here! (well, ok, not much, but some) http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/~windwolf "Intelligence is like a river; the deeper it runs, the less noise it makes."

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: Thought you would like to see how cyclists see all too many : dogs and dog owners.  Any comments??  If so, please cross post. No responsible dog owner would have a problem with any of the comments you shared.  Our access to public lands is threatened by the kind of people described who run their dogs off leash in violation of rules, or allow their dogs to be out of control or threatening to anyone.  That also applies to sweet, non-aggressive dogs who have their prey drive buttons pushed by cyclists.  We don’t want those people out on the trails anymore than you do. But bad examples of any group tend to give people bad impressions of the group as a whole, and this applies to cyclists as well as dog owners.  You’ll hear dog owners complain about off-road cyclists coming down hills out of control and at excessive speed, not allowing sufficient time to get out of their way.  Not only is it by far the most common citation I write while doing trail patrols on our local mountain, I also lost a Doberman when an airborne cyclist jumped a log on a corner at the bottom of a steep hill, hitting her squarely in the back, breaking it. (She was leashed.)  It would no more be fair for me to assume that all off-road cyclists behave irresponsibly than it is fair to assume that all dog owners do. Lynn K. —

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> I agree heartily with this.  Leash-free area or not, the owner of an > aggressive dog has *NO* business letting her dog off leash in a public > place.  People like this are the reason so many parks do NOT allow > leash-free areas, and many no longer allow dogs at all. > Denna Lasik

Agreed – except – i’d say any dog that doesn’t have good ‘recall’. Like mine.  My 10 month old lab puppy is iffy with recall. We are now using a 100 foot run, lots of distractions, and freeze dried liver, to try to train her to always come when called. We took her to a local state forest on a rainy march day, figuring no one else would be out there – and let her run off leash. She kept rushing back to us – got treats, etc.. but when she saw those intrepid mountain bikers, she went NUTS.  She ran over to each biker she saw, and jumped enthusiaastically and happily around their feet and tires, trying to kiss them. I was terrified someone would fall off their bike.  Luckily no one got angry at us – but they had every right.  That was the last time Emma went off leash, and until she is 100% recallable, there is  no way i’m going to endanger others like that again!

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Upon my taking a break from listening to The Kenny Wayne Shepherd [...] >Agreed – except – i’d say any dog that doesn’t have good ‘recall’. >Like mine.  My 10 month old lab puppy is iffy with recall. We >are now using a 100 foot run, lots of distractions, and freeze >dried liver, to try to train her to always come when called.

[...] First, she’s still only 10 months old, eh? But what do you do when she refuses to come? Are there ever any CONSEQUENCES? Until she is forced to also consider CONSEQUENCES for her disobedience, she will *never* be even close to totally reliable off-leash. If *you* knew there was *never* any CONSEQUENCES for, say, running a stop sign, you’d eventually come to pretty much disregard the sign, wouldn’t you? — Dogman About Hunting Retrievers http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm New! Dogman’s Book Recommendations http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun http://www.georgedickel.com "Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral. Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival." Dogman "Do unto others as they do unto you." Dogman

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The first thing my dog learned NOT to do on walks was chase joggers. The second was not to chase bicycles.  I spent too much of my time as a teenage paper-deliverer chasing off dogs, and recovering from dog bites to allow my dog to even THINK about menacing someone. Not all dog owners are stupid and lazy, but the ones who are have the dogs who chase and bite. Now if I could just get the bicycles to stop "buzzing" us and scaring the dog, we’d be in perfect harmony! -Shannon & Guinness To respond, please remove the anti-spam from my address.  Thank you.

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Question:

*Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence.  She doesn’t even need a running start.  I’m not sure what to do.  I’m pretty sure she *wants* to get out and run around the neighborhood due to some spearation anxiety (we’re gone all day). Now we put her on a harness and chain in the front yard– but when she wants she can somehow wriggle (sp?) herself out of the harness.  She’s like Houdini!!!  Our neighborhood has small children, and although she’s the best dog–very gentle, playful–she doesn’t know her own strength and we are worried about her knocking over a child–plus dogs are not allowed to run free. I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done?  She’s otherwise very well behaved and she’s been through obiedience training.  It’s as if she’s turning into a rebellious teen. Next she’ll want to listen to N’ * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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>I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our >backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done?  She’s >otherwise very well behaved and she’s been through obiedience >training.  It’s as if she’s turning into a rebellious teen. Next >she’ll want to listen to N’

Sure – leave her safely in the house. Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet" "Second-hand dogs AREN’T second-rate" see Lucy at:   http://www.flyball.com/nsl/

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What Samoyed friends have done (sammys apparently like to climb fences) is to make an "extension" on top of the fence that leans INWARD, kind of like those barb wire things at the top of jail fences but without the barbed wire (I think they used regular wire).  The inward tilt of the extension prevents the dog from jumping the fence. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >*Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered >she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence.  She doesn’t >even need a running start.  I’m not sure what to do.  I’m pretty >sure she *wants* to get out and run around the neighborhood due >to some spearation anxiety (we’re gone all day). Now we put her >on a harness and chain in the front yard– but when she wants she >can somehow wriggle (sp?) herself out of the harness.  She’s like >Houdini!!!  Our neighborhood has small children, and although >she’s the best dog–very gentle, playful–she doesn’t know her >own strength and we are worried about her knocking over a >child–plus dogs are not allowed to run free. >I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our >backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done?  She’s >otherwise very well behaved and she’s been through obiedience >training.  It’s as if she’s turning into a rebellious teen. Next >she’ll want to listen to N’ >* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s

Discussion Network * >The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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> *Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered > she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence.  She doesn’t > even need a running start.  I’m not sure what to do.  I’m pretty > sure she *wants* to get out and run around the neighborhood due > to some spearation anxiety (we’re gone all day). Now we put her > on a harness and chain in the front yard– but when she wants she > can somehow wriggle (sp?) herself out of the harness.  She’s like > Houdini

The thought of a puppy outside alone all day would give me the inside where he is safe and secure. I can really think of nothing that would make me feel comfortable with a youngster (or an oldster, for that matter)  outside all day when no one is home. — Toni www.irish-wolfhounds.com I/we recommend to all rpdb readers that Jerry Howe should be ignored as a crank and waste of time Killfile the jerk!

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Hello Skywalker, You’ve got to make her want to stay there. Use my separation anxiety surrogate toy technique when you leave and return, and use sound distractions and praise techniques to break her anxiety when she’s outside. Learn the Family Leadership Exercise, together these might just do the trick. Follow the instructions in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for free at http://www.doggydoright.com Jerry                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered > she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence.  She doesn’t > even need a running start.  I’m not sure what to do.  I’m pretty > sure she *wants* to get out and run around the neighborhood due > to some spearation anxiety (we’re gone all day). Now we put her > on a harness and chain in the front yard– but when she wants she > can somehow wriggle (sp?) herself out of the harness.  She’s like > Houdini!!!  Our neighborhood has small children, and although > she’s the best dog–very gentle, playful–she doesn’t know her > own strength and we are worried about her knocking over a > child–plus dogs are not allowed to run free. > I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our > backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done?  She’s > otherwise very well behaved and she’s been through obiedience > training.  It’s as if she’s turning into a rebellious teen. Next > she’ll want to listen to N’ > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

You mean shock the dog, don’t you cindymoron… You don’t know enough about training to do anything other than HURT the dog. You don’t have the intelligence to outwit a puppydog. Jerry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->*Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered >she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence. > She hasta jump?  Sounds like a pretty small dane to me! :*) >I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our >backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done? > You might consider augmenting the fence with a non visible fence > installation.  I don’t like "invisible" fences, normally, but they > work very well for partitioning a yard, house, or reinforcing an > inadequate fence that can’t be easily changed. > –Cindy > — >     I recommend that Jerry Howe be ignored as a crank and a waste of time. > Raging female jealousy, like penis envy, is a male myth.

http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/ ***** – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->        *** Southern California Lab Rescue: http://www.sclrr.org/ ***

Response:

If you decide to visit the link Jerry Howe has given you, (http://www.doggydoright.com), be sure you also take a look at http://home.earthlink.net/~tdwillis/Harlan/concerns.html "Concerns About Claims for the Wit’s End Dog Training Method and Doggy Do Right". Also take a look at this link that explains why Jerry Howe’s " Doggy Do Right" machine cannot possibly function as he claims: http://deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516286408 Whatever you decide, make an informed choice. Ed Williams http://Petloss.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > *Sigh*  I have a one year old great dane who has just discovered > she can simply jump over our 5 ft. chain link fence.  She doesn’t > even need a running start.  I’m not sure what to do.  I’m pretty > sure she *wants* to get out and run around the neighborhood due > to some spearation anxiety (we’re gone all day). Now we put her > on a harness and chain in the front yard– but when she wants she > can somehow wriggle (sp?) herself out of the harness.  She’s like > Houdini!!!  Our neighborhood has small children, and although > she’s the best dog–very gentle, playful–she doesn’t know her > own strength and we are worried about her knocking over a > child–plus dogs are not allowed to run free. > I know one answer is to build a 10ft fence around our > backyard–but is there ANYTHING else that can be done?  She’s > otherwise very well behaved and she’s been through obiedience > training.  It’s as if she’s turning into a rebellious teen. Next > she’ll want to listen to N’ > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hello ed, You are a liar and a beggar.

> If you decide to visit the link Jerry Howe has given you, > (http://www.doggydoright.com), be sure you also take a look at > http://home.earthlink.net/~tdwillis/Harlan/concerns.html > "Concerns About Claims for the Wit’s End Dog Training Method > and Doggy Do Right".

There are no concerns about the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual, because if there were, EVERYONE would be HOLLERING about it… All they can say is, they DON’T UNDERSTAND the manual, because they NEVER READ IT. Doggy Do Right (and KITTY WILL TOO) is 100% money back, satisfaction guaranteed FOREVER, and has a two year full warrantee, and BIOSOUND Scientific pays all return shipping, so if DDR doesn’t float your boat, it won’t cost ANYTHING to find out… And, don’t forget the 25% DISCOUNT for all shelter and rescue people, regardless of their tax exempt status… > Also take a look at this link that explains why Jerry Howe’s " Doggy > Do Right" machine cannot possibly function as he claims: > http://deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=516286408

That was written by amy dahl, someone who twists and pinches dog’s ears and beats dogs with sticks to MOTIVATE them. Who do you want to believe? ME, the guy with all of the ANSWERS to dog behavior problems? Or someone who twists and pinches dog’s body parats and shocks dogs and beats them with sticks and LIES about it, BECAUSE they aren’t smart enough to outwit a puppydog?  > Whatever you decide, make an informed choice. Yes, do that. > Ed Williams

Why does ed want to HURT dogs to train them? You didn’t answer the question, ed. What do YOU think of HURTING dogs to train them? You are defending YOUR PALS who pinch and twist ears and toes and shock and choke and hit and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS, and HANG dogs to REHABILITATE them, and THEY CALL IT TRAINING.

lying piece of smegma!" Nice talk. And your pals bitch about MY language. "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Jer, Thanks for posting that excellent self description in the subject header. I remind you that I never posted such a subject header, YOU did. > Hello ed, > You are a liar and a beggar.

Not true jer, For the record YOU are the pathological liar & admitted dog abuser here. YOU ARE LYING when you claim I abuse animals. Show me a post where I said any such thing. YOU ARE LYING when you claim I have pals who abuse animals. Show me a post where I said any such thing. YOU ARE LYING when you claim I defend abusing animals. Show me a post where I said any such thing. YOU ARE LYING when you claim to have "HUNDREDS" (you used to claim thousands) of satisfied customers. If what you said had ANY truth in it there would be many links to your website from that pool of customers. The fact is there are NONE, NADA. This can be easily be verified by everyone here & nothing you say can refute it. Where’s the LINKS jer?? EdW http://Petloss.com <spam & DDR advt. snipped>

Response:

Just to clarify–we are not intending to leave her outside all day and we don’t.  We have a dog door that leads to our fenced in backyard so that she can go in and out as she pleases.  For now, until we figure out what to do, we periodically put her out on the front chain.  But we don’t leave her outside,chained or whatever, while we are gone.  So far thanks to all for your suggestio * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

>We have a dog door that leads to our fenced in >backyard so that she can go in and out as she pleases.  For >now, until we figure out what to do, we periodically put her >out on the front chain.

I guess a Dane-sized dog door is enough to scare off most burglars, eh?  ;) What about a smaller (or less agile) friend for "Houdini"?  My Aussie could get over my 4 foot fence easily – but he never has because he doesn’t *want* to.  He’d never leave his best buddy – my old girl dog, Murphy. Still, I wouldn’t trust this arrangement for when I wasn’t home.   I guess there aren’t any easy answers, Sky. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

I’m not surprised you are not enough to make your dog want to stay home. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We have a dog door that leads to our fenced in >backyard so that she can go in and out as she pleases.  For >now, until we figure out what to do, we periodically put her >out on the front chain. > I guess a Dane-sized dog door is enough to scare off most > burglars, eh?  ;) > What about a smaller (or less agile) friend for "Houdini"?  My > Aussie could get over my 4 foot fence easily – but he never has > because he doesn’t *want* to.  He’d never leave his best buddy – > my old girl dog, Murphy. > Still, I wouldn’t trust this arrangement for when I wasn’t home. > I guess there aren’t any easy answers, Sky. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

>I’m not surprised you are not enough to make your dog want to >stay home. Jerry.

Jerry?  Got dogs? I do.  I don’t believe that you even know a dog. — –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

My dogs won’t leave my property unless they’re invited out with me. Know why? There’s no place like home… Well adjusted dogs KNOW their property, and will stay there because that’s their home… All you bums talk about territorial instincts in dogs, but you don’t understand HOWE to USE ANY INSTINCT… You view instinctive reactions as ADVERSARIES, instead of ALLIES. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m not surprised you are not enough to make your dog want to >stay home. Jerry. > Jerry?  Got dogs? > I do.  I don’t believe that you even know a dog. > — > –Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

Response:

So sorry if you failed to understand, but I jioned this discussion group to discuss–not to be slammed because I’m not the AA+++ dog trainer.  I’m new at this and am looking for HELPFUL suggestions.  Mr. Jerry Howe, I really didn’t want to get in the middle of your insurrection, and I plan not to from this messsage on.  I just ask for helpful, friendly suggestions.  I just want to be loved–is that so wr * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We have a dog door that leads to our fenced in >backyard so that she can go in and out as she pleases.  For >now, until we figure out what to do, we periodically put her >out on the front chain. >I guess a Dane-sized dog door is enough to scare off most >burglars, eh?  ;) >What about a smaller (or less agile) friend for "Houdini"?  My >Aussie could get over my 4 foot fence easily – but he never has >because he doesn’t *want* to.  He’d never leave his best buddy – >my old girl dog, Murphy. >Still, I wouldn’t trust this arrangement for when I wasn’t home. >I guess there aren’t any easy answers, Sky. >– >–Matt.  Rocky’s a Dog.

You know Matt, odd that you mentioned that–because she DID have a friend to play with (a little boy Fox Terrier).  they romped and played in the backyard all the time playing tug-of-war and "who can find the bunny first?"  Unfortunately, and I’ll spare the long story, the fox terrier had to be put to sleep.  Since then she’s bored and digs holes for fun.  We walk her and run her as much as we can.  But she still gets splenty bored.  I’ve suggested to my mom about getting a "playmate."  Hmm….we’re thinking about it….see my new mes * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Question:

No one is arguing that dogs are instinctively protective. Your descriptions, however, indicate that she is not being aggressive from protection instincts, but from fear. This is a very different type of aggression – protectiveness can be controlled, but it is much more difficult to control fear. A dog that barks when a visitor comes to the house, but settles down when the owner indicates that the visitor is allowed and either accepts or ignores the visitor is one thing; a dog that continues agressive behavior to visitors is dangerous. If you are aware that your dog may become aggressive in certain situations (the person play-hitting you, for example) then you need to keep the dog out of that situation before it escalates. What if you have the dog in your shop and some children come in and hit each other? How do you know that this dog won’t be triggered by that action and attack? No one is saying you need to euthanize your dog; they are trying to make you aware of the seriousness of the situation before something tragic occurs. Christy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a > few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her > and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying > is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we > would not have very many dogs in the world. > Keri

Response:

I said before that that was a good idea and I have talked to a behaviourist a few of them actually.  And each of them have said to continue to socailize her and that be protective in her home is a natural dog instinct.  What I am saying is that if we euthanize every dog who becomes protective in their home then we would not have very many dogs in the world. Keri

Response:

Very well written, MaryBeth.  Your sincerity in caring about  this dog really shows. Carol

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has >come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, >but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit >about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than >wrong, and get help. >    Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. >In all sincerity for your dog, >MaryBeth

Response:

> She is in training.

    *Training* is a totally different subject. Has nothing to do with aggressive/submissive behavior problems. Well, not in the way you’ve explained her training. Going to regular training classes is not the same thing as seeing a behaviorist.     Someone needs to see your dog do this ‘near biting’, and see why she does it, and what you can do to help. There’s already been many ppl like you that come here, and think it’s *really* not that big of a deal, and eventually wind up with a dead dog. I REALLY don’t want that to happen to you. And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I > knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked > something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but > she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same > thing.

    What exactly *stopped* her from biting? Did you stop her, or did she stop herself?     My friends, and even children can come to my home and do many many things not only to me, but to my dogs, and NADA, ZIPPO response, other than wanting to join in the fun. Then again, I have a golden, a black lab, and a lab mix.     You have an Akita, a wonderful animal, and one that you SAY you love as a child. I am the same way about mine. I am not jumping on you, I’m trying to get you to open your eyes here. Your Akita is a breed known for having a totally different temperament than mine. Please don’t lose your dog, out of some sort of false sense of pride, in a newsgroup.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said > earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when > something happens to a child.

    You seem to be thinking we’re against your dog here. We aren’t. We all LOVE our dogs, and try to help ANYONE save their dogs. Your dog is a bite waiting to happen.     **Don’t be defensive, when it’s your dog’s life at stake here, not your ego, PLEASE.**     Think long and hard about that last sentence I just wrote. Go to bed thinking about it. Wake up thinking about it, then get back to us. Don’t just read this and fly off the handle and attack me. I KNOW you most likely will want to, by the time you finish reading this. But THINK, then post tomorrow with your feelings. But while thinking, keep that dog at the front of it all.     We’re talking to you about a dog that has threatened to BITE three ppl. This isn’t *cute* or even submissive, it’s AGGRESSIVE, be it fear based or not, and you’re in deep denial if you don’t believe she’s going to bite soon, and doesn’t need a pro behaviorist.     I could care less if your feelings are hurt, it’s not my *intention*, at all, sincerely it isn’t but I DO care about your dog’s life. It’s time for *you* to get serious. Well we need to look at the whole situation and > see why a dog did what it did.

    *YOU* may look at it that way, but trust me, the police aren’t going to see a playful pup. Neither will the parents of a wandering child, or anyone that happens to set her off. You still don’t know exactly why she did it, you are guessing at it being protection. Most likely it is.     But I know enough from your posts, you don’t know how to handle it. And none of us that are serious about our dogs, would EVER think that this behavior isn’t something to be taken very seriously.     Now take what you said right above this, about looking at the whole situation, and go to a behaviorist with that *very* sentence. Get help. No one here can possilby help you, no matter what they promise. And it won’t be you or your b/f that pays in the end, it will be your beloved pet. (((  By the way here in my hometown I would not have > to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.

    OH, HOW LUCKY THEN !!!!!     THREE WHOLE CHANCES !!!!     Jeeeze Louise, woman !!!!     What are you *thinking*????     And, yes I am being extremely sarcastic and snippy, but *only* to get your attention.     So you don’t have to put her down until she bites THREE times? THINK AGAIN.     If she rips the face off of a child, or anyone, you WILL have to, trust me. Those ppl will make sure of it. Law or no law. It can be done.     I’ll tell you one thing, if it bit my child’s face, seriously damaged MY child, and you thought you’d have two more chances, you’d be sadly mistaken. I’d take that dog and shoot it myself. You can be pretty sure more ppl would feel the same way.     I would make sure that dog was put down, and not only sue you for the damages, physical, mental and emotional, but if I found out you KNEW that she had any proclivity to bite, and didn’t do anything???? Wake up and smell the anal glands here, girlfriend !!!! As far as my bf goes > well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure > he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he > would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every > opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know > she did not like what he was doing and never bit him.

    That’s one thing, but you came in here, telling us that your dog has come close to biting three times. Make all the excuses you want for the dog, but if you don’t seek pro help soon, I really don’t think you give a shit about her. I think you’d rather be *right* and let her go on to bite, than wrong, and get help.     Please please please, prove me wrong here, Keri. In all sincerity for your dog, MaryBeth

Response:

> But like I said denial no I dont >think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit >anyone.

<sigh>  She’s never bitten anyone, but she has the POTENTIAL. Fear aggression is a very serious and dangerous thing.

Response:

She goes to training classes but since the shop is mine after and before training classes she is free of the shop and she usually just lays down and does not bother a soul.  So there are many different people in and out of the shop everyday.  I think it is a dogs nature to be protective of their owner.   Keri

Response:

>Like I said >earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when >something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation >and >see why a dog did what it did.  

This is true, but you’re ignoring that the law doesn’t rationalize with angry parents. It usually sides with them, and the losers are you and your dog. Nevermind the potential lawsuits. Why are you so hell bent against seeing a behaviourist? You did come here to get advice, and that’s the advice you’ve been given.  No one’s arguing with you about your dog, they’re pleading with you to help it before something unimaginable happens. I agree with them. See a behaviourist.

Response:

Kate, Thanks I may try that. I cant take her to parks around here because all the parks do not allow dogs. Keri

Response:

She is in training.  And she is not an openly aggressive dog.  The reason I knew she was protecting me both times because once a person was over and picked something up and was hitting me with it.  He did not mean any harm by it but she did not like it.  The next time the guy came at me and did kind of the same thing.  She does not just bite everyone who walks in the door.  Like I said earlier half the problem is everyone wants to put the blame on a dog when something happens to a child.  Well we need to look at the whole situation and see why a dog did what it did.  By the way here in my hometown I would not have to put her down until she has bitten at least 3 times.  As far as my bf goes well I was not out there but I know he tends to play a little rough and Im sure he very well provoked her, by playing with the rake with her.  Not that he would mean to hurt her but I do believe it scared her and she had every opportunity to bite him but instead she snarled showed teeth and let him know she did not like what he was doing and never bit him. Keri

Response:

>and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I >guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids.

I have both kids and dogs.  And I also live in a neighborhood where very young children roam around.  Now, of course it’s the parents responsiblity to keep an eye on their kids, but unfortunetly, not all do.  Does this mean my dog has a right to bite a 3 or 4 year old that may wander into my yard?  No!  It’s not the childs fault he has irrepsonsible parents, and it is my fault for whatever my dog does. I personally would rip the head off of a dog with my teeth if it bit my child for no reason.   >You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I >like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.  

You may not like people or children, but that excuse will not hold up in court when you are being sued by someone. You have an Akita, which are not for the inexperienced dog owner. Unfortunately, some Akita’s have horrid temperments.  I had one in many of my classes, from puppy class on.  As she got older, she got more aggressive towards other dogs (which is normal for the breed) but also people.  At 10 months of age she tried to go through the backyard fence to get to the 6 year old child playing in his yard.  She was euthanized.  Her owner was also informed by a knowledeable breeder that that type of temperement was not the norm, and was dangerous. See a behaviorist, maybe she is workable. But if she isn’t, think very carefully about the decisions you make.  Good luck Dogstar716 Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html

Response:

Take it gradually.  She seems to be very nervous and jealous.  Make sure that you do not exclude her when you are with your boyfriend.  Give her a place to hide (under a table – corner of a room) if she needs to.  My daughters dog had the same problem and through lots of love he has gained confidence.  Try to sit with your boyfriend when he pats her – so that she knows you approve.  I am sure things will work out eventually.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

Response:

Sugarwhitemike1, Denial?  I dont quite understand what you are saying.  She has never bit anyone and the only times she has tried and made her presents known is when there was someone in the house that was aggressive towards me.  She thought she was protecting me.  Yes I know Akitas are known for their "reputation" but I think most dogs protect their owner.  As far as her hurting a child I never said I wanted that to happen and that is the reason she is supervised.  She has not really given me a reason to think she would hurt someone unless provoked.  I have many young  brothers and sisters who come over and she never messes with them.  And as far as the 6 yr old scaling my fence maybe I put it the wrong way but I dont feel it is right that you would put a dog to sleep when it is in its own yard minding its own business and some parent is not keeping an eye on their kid.  I think a lot of the problems are that people look at dogs as "just" dogs.  For many people they are much more than that.  And Im sure all of you feel that they are much more than dogs as well or why else would you always be doing research and talking about them.  But like I said denial no I dont think i am in denial sure she does things that are wrong but never bit anyone. Keri

Response:

That’s not socialization.  Socialization means direct interaction with strangers of all kinds–different races, ages, sexes, and behaviors. Training class is *NOT* socialization–it is training.  Socialization is an ongoing process that you do all the time with the dog. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit. > Keri

Response:

Sounds like some one is in denial. The classic case of my child can do no wrong.

Response:

> I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she > has TRIED in her own home.

    What stopped her from biting?     THAT is an important question.     If a dog is aggressive enough to *try* to bite, it’s only a matter of time until it does. The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we > have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same > location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is > also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has > been socialized quite a bit.

    This is great. But the fact remains that you have a dog that is GOING to bite one of these days. No one here on the group, or the net can tell you how to change that, without seeing the dog in person.     If you have all of these facilities available, have you talked to the trainer there about this? If so, what did they say? If they either don’t think it’s that much of a problem, or don’t know how to help, you need to get another person to do it.     Trust me Keri, I have three dogs, and I love them all, but my golden, Rudy, is my *soulmate*, I LOVE this dog, and I have no children, so I know how you feel about it. But all that doesn’t make a hill of beans, when it comes to the dog eventually making contact, and biting. In fact it would make *me* more prone to find pro help ASAP. If the dog goes after your b/f, and KNOWS him, what about a child that comes onto your property? MaryBeth

Response:

I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

    Ummmm, unfortunately, YES you will.     Even if the child comes into your yard. And many places will go harder on you *especially* if you have a sign on your fence. Shows knowledge of dog’s aggressive behavior. So if anyone, child/robber/neighbor is harmed by your dog, you WILL put her down. You won’t have a choice. And above all of that, you can be sued for mucho $$.     I’d listen to Emily, and get this dog some pro training. "In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake"     Exactly what did she do to make you think she was protecting you? What was your b/f doing, exactly? And what happened?     Your dog has a behavior problem that you can not find help for on a newsgroup, nor on the web. You need to see someone in person, or you’re going to be very very sorry that you didn’t, one day. You’ve already talked to a breeder about it, and they warned you.     What happens if some neighbor’s child gets into your yard, and she rips her face off?     And you have to put her down?     And you get sued for the damages?     How in the world will you feel, if you already know NOW that she has a problem and you don’t do something?     How will you feel about the child?     And how will you feel about your beloved dog being put down? MaryBeth

Response:

>I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she >has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we >have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same >location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is >also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has >been socialized quite a bit. >Keri

Nope, sorry, this is just a normal or reduced amount of socialisation….. taking your dog to a busy walkway/park/mall with *many* different strangers per hour is socialisation this type of socialisation you are talking about is *territory mine* socialisation….. the dog needs to be in *unknown* or *neutral* territory for *lots* of socialisation looking forward to other opinions kate

Response:

I may have mis represented what I said earlier.  She has NOT bitten anyone, she has TRIED in her own home.  The reason I say she is socailized is becuase we have a training facility as well as a grooming shop and a vet all in the same location (family run).  She has been in many of the training classes.  She is also always taken to all of my families homes.  That is why I think she has been socialized quite a bit. Keri

Response:

My point was simply that if you are unwilling to work with this dog, then it is very irresponsible to keep it.  Obviously you’re willing to work with her, or you wouldn’t be here, but the idea of euthanization should never be a surprise when you have an aggressive dog on your hand.  Not everyone is as responsible as you seem to be, and all it takes is one stupid parent to get your dog killed. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so. I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around. > Keri

Response:

> I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the > rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the > rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the > fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my > dog down because people can not keep their children under control.

If your dog bites someone’s child you *will* put the dog down because most likely animal control and the courts and everything will be involved and you will have no choice.   In this area I think dogs get two or three bites before they are killed.   It doesn’t make the least difference if it is the person’s fault and not the dog’s fault.   I think that’s why they give the dog more than one chance, though. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I see it so > many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the > child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there > is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs > saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard. I > guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. > You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I > like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your > point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.

 How do you propose to simutaneously socialize her and keep her from the possibility of biting someone?   Never, never let her around children?   Never let her around men?  That’s not very socialized. > I > think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing > she does not just go after people walking around.

I know the idea must be beyond horrible for you.   You *love* this dog.   She is a wonderful dog.   I don’t doubt it in the least.   But listen to the people who have suggested taking her to a dog behaviorist. They know a lot about dogs and about what you are going through and what will happen if your dog becomes a fear biter.   It doesn’t mean that your dog is a bad dog, or viscious or anything like that.  But if she bites anyone (or three anyones) it won’t matter *why* she bit them.    Don’t doubt at all that the people who have mentioned the possible eventuality of euthanizing her understand just how painful that would be.   No one wants that to happen.   People will try to help just as much as they can so it doesn’t happen. –Julie

Response:

Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to euth her.  She is basically my child. Keri

Response:

> Well she is kept inside in her crate when we are not here and she is only > outside when im with her and then she is only on a leash or in a privacy fenced > back yard so im not concerned with her getting out.  There will be no cause to > euth her.  She is basically my child.

I never mentioned anything about her getting out.  She may very well be your "child" but that does not mean it’s acceptable to have this dog in your home if she is this aggressive.  (What happens when she gets your boyfriend good? Or when you have guests over?  Or when a 6 year old scales your fence?)  As I said, you need to work with a behaviorist experienced with Akitas, because they are very difficult dogs to work with.  This is a very severe situation and it needs to be repaired as quickly as possible. ~Emily

Response:

I understand what you are saying.  Like I said though I think she went for the rake more than my boyfriend.  I think he was trying to play with her with the rake which means she may have been provoked.  As far as people coming over the fence I have signs posted and my neighbors are aware of her.  I will not put my dog down because people can not keep their children under control. I see it so many times on the news dog has mauled a child and then you later find out the child was in the dogs yard where it had no business being.  I feel like there is a leash law where im from and I obey that for people sake as well as my dogs saftey and people should also make their children stay in their own yard.  I guess I am one of those people who is more into their dogs than having kids. You see those bumper stickers that say the more I talk to people the more I like my dog, well I fall under that catagory.   But like i said, I do see your point  I do socialize her as much as possible and will continue to do so.  I think it is more of a protective thing that she has no a all out visious thing she does not just go after people walking around. Keri

Response:

Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. Thanks, Keri

Response:

Akitas are generally difficult dogs anyways, and I would strongly suggest against getting them to anyone bothering to read this besides the poster, unless you are VERY experienced with dogs. Besides that, you need to see a behaviorist.  I can not read this dog’s language through a post to usenet, Akitas are generally difficult to work with anyways unless you’re very experienced with nordics in general and Akitas in particular (which I’m neither) and you’ve got a very serious problem on your hands.  Yes, submissive dogs can become fear biters.  Yes, you possibly have both.  Yes, it is very important to fix this problem before you are forced to euth her. ~Emily

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Question for all of you dog behavior specialist?  I have an Akita that was > bought for my boyfriend that bonded to me.  No problem there.  However she > really does not like anyone else but me including my boyfriend.  She cowers > whenever someone tries to touch her and at loud noises.  In the last few months > she has tried to bite 3 times.  Twice she thought she was protecting me and the > third my boyfriend was raking the backyard and she went after the rake > (although he swears up and down it was him she was after)  She has been > socialized A LOT.  Cant quite figure it out.  I talked to an Akita breeder and > he said that these dogs that start out with submissive behavior eventually turn > into fear biters.  Is this true. She is only about 13 months old. > Thanks, > Keri

Response:

Question:

Hello People, I have used non force training methods on some of the most aggressive and biggest, and smallest and shyest, dogs you could possibly find, and I stake my life on non force, non confrontational training methods. I haven’t used a sharp correction on any dog in twenty-five years. Proper handling and behavioral conditioning techniques solve serious behavior problems in minutes, not weeks and months, with no negative interactions, no confrontation, fear, or force. Conditioning and shaping behaviors avoids the pitfalls of the probable side effects of inhibiting and repressing a dog’s natural, instinctive behaviors. Repercussions from conflicting with a dog’s instinctive, natural, behaviors, are stress, anxiety, fear, anger, and adversion (a loathsome life condition), and often result in excessive barking, destructive chewing, pacing, whining, self mutilation, and other such stress induced anxiety relief mechanisms… That’s why I laugh at these trainers that take months to train their dogs. They bust their butts busting dogs butts, and constantly have to keep doing more of the same. Constantly correcting their dogs, "reinforcement never ends," always having to immediately react to each undesirable behavior… Specific behavior problems are inhibited, but the behavior changes to other undesirable behaviors as replacements, because the nature or cause of the problem has not changed. Many undesirable dog behaviors are reflexive in the dogs thinking. That means he has given little or no thought into what he has just done, he simply reacted to circumstance. How can you correct a dog from doing something that he did, that he didn’t even know he had done? For sure, that leaves plenty of room for misunderstanding and conflict. Most behavior problems are a result of conflict and stress. Those conflicts are often misunderstood and mistaken by the so called "domination/submission" theory trainers, to mean that the dog is always challenging them. To their way of thinking, dogs are constantly challenging us for "authority," and it is our "obligation" to react in kind, and push back harder to intimidate the dog. While that may or may not be the case in some small percentage of dogs, it is unfortunately widely taught and used. The problem with that approach, is that by nature, it is adversarial and compunctuous. It challenges a problem that does not deserve attention, and makes a serious issue that never ends, out of something that could have easily been finessed and redirected, through proper conditioning, demonstrated self control, and positive reinforcement. In order to get control, you have to give up on the micro aspects of control and force. It is when we force control, that we challenge instinctive behaviors and create and encounter out of control behaviors. Any behavior can be modified through proper conditioning without force or conflict. Using non force methods you can teach a dog to come every time you call in about forty minutes. Using non force methods, you can stop a dog from jumping, in about fifteen minutes, maybe less. Using non force methods, you can avoid the substitution of other negative behaviors as replacements. Using non force methods is the fastest, most effective way to get your dog to do anything you ask, without stifling the dogs personality, breaking his spirit, or adversely affecting his temperament. I don’t use non force methods because I’m a wimp, or just because force training is "cruel." I use non force methods because I have been training dogs for thirty-six years, and I learned the hard way, that force, and fear, have no place in a training environment. Compulsion training is less efficient, and potentially causes more problems than it solves. Consistent, positive reinforcement and praise, coupled with Pavlovian conditioned reflex, are the only effective tools necessary that will permanently improve any dog’s behavior, and compel your dog to do anything you ask.. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Jerry,      Since this approach of yours has been gaining popularity in both the raising of children and dogs over the past 20 to 30 years, how do you explain the increased numbers of behavioral problems in both? Steve * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

> Jerry, >      Since this approach of yours has been gaining popularity in both > the raising of children and dogs over the past 20 to 30 years, how do > you explain the increased numbers of behavioral problems in both? > Steve > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Because it is not being used. I see people being violent with their children and animals more now than ever before. Furthermore, two counties have closed down their juvenile offenders "boot camp" programs that were basically a variation of the NILIF methodology, because it was only marginally more effective than their ordinary "correctional" programs. J>

Response:

>Jerry, >     Since this approach of yours has been gaining popularity in both >the raising of children and dogs over the past 20 to 30 years, how do >you explain the increased numbers of behavioral problems in both? >Steve

When you start allowing people or dogs to think for themselves, you must be prepared for the consequences.  The kids will start asking a lot of why questions for which you must have answers better than becasue I said so.  If you are so stupid that you don’t have any other answers they will start to have what you call behavioural problems.  I call them natural reactions to your stupidity.  If your reaction to their striking out at your unexplained and unfathomable rules is to yell, scream, beat, whip, or exile, then you have joined the cretins of modern conservative society.  Just say no to this and use the golden rule.  For your edification, it says "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."  It does not say "Do unto others as was done unto you."  It does not say "Do unto others as others say you should do."  It does not say "Do unto others before they do unto you."   If you would like to have been trained to follow Mommy at the grocery store by having Mommy jerk your neck in a chain collar when you lagged, then you are the perfect Koehler child.  If you would have Mommy beat the shit out of you when you wet the bed, then you are the good Koehler child.  Must I continue? Of course you will start that old anthopomorhism whine about how dogs are different from people and that should not be confused.  I ask you why you think an animal is supposed to respond in a more refined manner than you would expect children or teens or draftees?  A human that strikes back at brutality is SANE!  A dog that strikes back is killed. Maybe you should give that paradox a few moment of thought before you run your brutalistic mouth about children and dogs. St. John the Trainer

Response:

     No, it’s because people are confused, knowing a simple correction will do the trick, but nooo, this book and 48 Hours says don’t correct… talk to them about their feelings, etc, etc.      So, these confused people try to do what the book and 48 Hours says to do, and both the kid and the dog tell ‘em to fuck off, in fact begging to be told what to do, but they can’t do what’s proper cause society has gone crazy. They finally lose it, cause it’s not working… and you’ve got another abuse statistic.      When all that was necessary was for them to be allowed to say No!, and slap a little hand reaching for the "whatever", or being smacked upside the head for beating up on his sister. (You can substitute mouth for hand and attacking the cat for beating up sister) Steve * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >      No, it’s because people are confused, knowing a simple correction > will do the trick, but nooo, this book and 48 Hours says don’t > correct… talk to them about their feelings, etc, etc. >      So, these confused people try to do what the book and 48 Hours > says to do, and both the kid and the dog tell ‘em to fuck off, in fact > begging to be told what to do, but they can’t do what’s proper cause > society has gone crazy. They finally lose it, cause it’s not working… > and you’ve got another abuse statistic. >      When all that was necessary was for them to be allowed to say No!, > and slap a little hand reaching for the "whatever", or being smacked > upside the head for beating up on his sister. (You can substitute mouth > for hand and attacking the cat for beating up sister) > Steve > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Inappropriate and ineffective methods, whether forceful or not, are nonetheless, ineffective and inappropriate. That’s why I’m here. That’s why you are history. Bye! The Fat Lady. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

To: Jerry (The Fat Lady), and To: whoever the fuck Anonymous is;      Yeah, "…because I said so!" does work. And there’s nothing wrong with thinking for yourself… as long as you know, there are consequences to your actions. When animals, that’s all of us, are allowed to behave unchecked, what do you think the outcome will be??? Bliss, Utopia, Eden??? Not in our life time!!!      Have you ever watched Discovery, how ’bout OZ; ever lived with a hundred security dogs or in share cropper housing with a bunch of indigent alcoholics??? I have, and I know all about the "plight of man" and the suffering of animals… Having to conform to the rules, what an inconvenience, blah,blah,blah. Get a clue…we all have to deal with "The Rules", and they’re not learned through any positive motivation!!! All of us "animals" learn how to conduct ourselves through avoidance of negative consequence, positive reinforcement is merely an accelerator… not even necessary except for cohesion.      And for the record; I do not condone, recommend, or teach – beating, whipping, or brutalizing any creature in any way…But, I do teach the proper application of physical communication, both positive and negative, of which there are no more ancillary effects than that of gravity. Steve Boyer www.TheDogman.com * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Steve, there’s a couple of fundamental faults with your thinking. > To: Jerry (The Fat Lady), and To: whoever the fuck Anonymous is; >      Yeah, "…because I said so!" does work.

That challenges the dogs natural instinctive behavior and puts you in conflict with Nature. You are not more powerful than nature, and you cannot call nature a liar, and expect the dog to trust and follow you with high regard, confidence, and reliability. You set up a mistrustful and adversarial relationship that operates on a lowly, base or gut instinct level, rather than higher thinking and appreciation. > And there’s nothing wrong > with thinking for yourself… as long as you know, there are > consequences to your actions.

That’s what I keep trying to tell you, but you are not willing to use your intellect.  Instead, you rely on fear, force, and confrontation, and provoke arguments with dogs in an effort to dominate and subordinate them. > When animals, that’s all of us, are > allowed to behave unchecked, what do you think the outcome will be???

Howe you equate using intelligent, scientific, Pavlovian conditioning, and psychological behavioral modification techniques, and positive motivation, as "allowing behavior to go unchecked," is prima facia evidence of your inability to understand the basic concepts of dog training and the values of science, basic human decency and civility, and common sense. > Bliss, Utopia, Eden??? Not in our life time!!!

Not with punks like you running amok, telling people to hurt and fight with their dogs. >      Have you ever watched Discovery, how ’bout OZ; ever lived with a > hundred security dogs or in share cropper housing with a bunch of > indigent alcoholics??? I have, and I know all about the "plight of man" > and the suffering of animals… Having to conform to the rules, what an > inconvenience, blah,blah,blah.

Nope. Never had the pleasure. > Get a clue…we all have to deal with > "The Rules", and they’re not learned through any positive motivation!!!

Perhaps that’s part of the problem, wouldn’t that make sense? Oh, excuse me, I forgot… > All of us "animals" learn how to conduct ourselves through avoidance of > negative consequence, positive reinforcement is merely an > accelerator… not even necessary except for cohesion.

I’m not going to dignify that with an answer, except to say that you are a menace. >      And for the record; I do not condone, recommend, or teach – > beating, whipping, or brutalizing any creature in any way…

Not at all. You have more creative methods of inflicting pain and expressing your dominance and demonstrating that you are a basic wild animal with no self control, no self discipline, no self respect as a human being, and no respect or regard for dogs or any other living being, except for yourself… > But, I do > teach the proper application of physical communication, both positive > and negative, of which there are no more ancillary effects than that of > gravity.

Gravity can kill you. > Steve Boyer > www.TheDogman.com > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

So can stupidity. Stupidity is a fact of life. The only negative consequence of stupidity is in not learning from it. You can’t recognize stupidity because you do not have the intellectual ability or the moral fiber to discern Right from Wrong. DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Hi If you look at people who own dogs and have children, you will usually find the dogs and children have the same kind of behaviour.  Either calm and under control, or naughty and out of control.  With the out of control kids, don’t the parents usually scream and shout and smack.  These people may have been taught these non aggressive tactics to control there dogs but they sure as hell don’t use them.  It’s how the dog is treated every day that matters, you can teach them the best methods in the world, but if they won’t use them what can you do?  A smack to a lot of owners is quick and gets the desired effect, so they think. Lucy

Response:

>    And for the record; I do not condone, recommend, or teach – >beating, whipping, or brutalizing any creature in any way…But, I do >teach the proper application of physical communication, both positive >and negative, of which there are no more ancillary effects than that of >gravity. >Steve Boyer >www.TheDogman.com

Sounds like you have abandoned Koehler and slapping pups that nip.   Good for you! It also sounds like you still believe in hanging.  That is what you meant by gravity effects wasn’t it? Lying hypocrite. St. John the Trainer

Response:

Some of the Behaviors you mentioned can also have something to do with diet, not just the type of training the dog received. I train my dogs by the Paul Loeb method and I do not keep repeating the lessons. Once my dog sits I don’t repeat that behavior everyday. Try reading "Smarter Than You Think " by Paul Loeb you might learn how to be a dog trainer. Wright’s Danes

Response:

Hello steve, Looks like you’ve got it all figgered out, huh?

> When all that was necessary was for them to be allowed to say No!,

and slap a little hand reaching for the "whatever", or being smacked upside the head for beating up on his sister. (You can substitute mouth for hand and attacking the cat for beating up sister)  > Steve Using your hypothesis, I suppose we could substitute lots of things for intelligence and human decency…  ;-) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.  Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Hello People, I have used non force training methods on some of the most aggressive and biggest, and smallest and shyest, dogs you could possibly find, and I stake my life on non force, non confrontational training methods. I haven’t used a sharp correction on any dog in twenty-five years. Proper handling and behavioral conditioning techniques solve serious behavior problems in minutes, not weeks and months, with no negative interactions, no confrontation, fear, or force. Conditioning and shaping behaviors avoids the pitfalls of the probable side effects of inhibiting and repressing a dog’s natural, instinctive behaviors. Repercussions from conflicting with a dog’s instinctive, natural, behaviors, are stress, anxiety, fear, anger, and adversion (a loathsome life condition), and often result in excessive barking, destructive chewing, pacing, whining, self mutilation, and other such stress induced anxiety relief mechanisms. That’s why I laugh at these trainers that take months to train their dogs. They bust their butts busting dogs butts, and constantly have to keep doing more of the same. Constantly correcting their dogs, "reinforcement never ends," always having to immediately react to each undesirable behavior… Specific behavior problems are inhibited, but the behavior changes to other undesirable behaviors as replacements, because the nature or cause of the problem has not changed. Many undesirable dog behaviors are reflexive in the dogs’ thinking. That means he has given little or no thought into what he has just done, he simply reacted to circumstance. How can you correct a dog from doing something that he did that he didn’t even know he had done? For sure, that leaves plenty of room for misunderstanding and conflict. Most behavior problems are a result of conflict and stress. Those conflicts are often misunderstood and mistaken by the so called "domination/submission" theory trainers, to mean that the dog is always challenging them. To their way of thinking, dogs are constantly challenging us for "authority," and it is our "obligation" to react in kind, and push back harder to intimidate the dog. While that may or may not be the case in some small percentage of dogs, it is unfortunately widely taught and used. The problem with that approach, is that by nature, it is adversarial and compunctuous. It challenges a problem that does not deserve attention, and makes a serious issue that never ends, out of something that could have easily been finessed and redirected, through proper conditioning, demonstrated self control, and positive reinforcement. In order to get control, you have to give up on the micro aspects of control and force. It is when we force control, that we challenge instinctive behaviors and create and encounter out of control behaviors. Any behavior can be modified through proper conditioning without force or conflict. Using non force methods you can teach a dog to come every time you call in about forty minutes. Using non force methods, you can stop a dog from jumping, in about fifteen minutes, maybe less. Using non force methods, you can avoid the substitution of other negative behaviors as replacements. Using non force methods is the fastest, most effective way to get your dog to do anything you ask, without stifling the dogs personality, breaking his spirit, or adversely affecting his temperament. I don’t use non force methods because I’m a wimp, or just because force training is "cruel." I use non force methods because I have been training dogs for thirty-eight years and I learned the hard way, that force, confrontation, and fear, have no place in a training environment. Compulsion training is less efficient, and potentially causes more problems than it solves. Consistent, positive reinforcement and praise, coupled with Pavlovian conditioned reflex, are the only effective tools necessary that will permanently improve any dog’s behavior, and compel your dog to want to do anything you ask.. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                 -Leo Tolstoy- Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                 CAVEAT If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or punish your dog in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows HOWE. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                                 -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                                 -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                                 -Jerry Howe-

Response:

> Hello People, > I have used non force training methods

Non force training Best book out "Beyond Basic Dog Training" by Diane Bauman http://www.bright.net/~kparks/dogs/ds.jpg you will see happy dogs taking to it with interest and intent

Response:

Hello People, I have used non force training methods on some of the most aggressive and biggest, and smallest and shyest, dogs you could possibly find, and I stake my life on non force, non confrontational training methods. I haven’t used a sharp correction on any dog in twenty-five years. Proper handling and behavioral conditioning techniques solve serious behavior problems in minutes, not weeks and months, with no negative interactions, no confrontation, fear, or force. Conditioning and shaping behaviors avoids the pitfalls of the probable side effects of inhibiting and repressing a dog’s natural, instinctive behaviors. Repercussions from conflicting with a dog’s instinctive, natural, behaviors, are stress, anxiety, fear, anger, and adversion (a loathsome life condition), and often result in excessive barking, destructive chewing, pacing, whining, self mutilation, and other such stress induced anxiety relief mechanisms. That’s why I laugh at these trainers that take months to train their dogs. They bust their butts busting dogs butts, and constantly have to keep doing more of the same. Constantly correcting their dogs, "reinforcement never ends," always having to immediately react to each undesirable behavior… Specific behavior problems are inhibited, but the behavior changes to other undesirable behaviors as replacements, because the nature or cause of the problem has not changed. Many undesirable dog behaviors are reflexive in the dogs’ thinking. That means he has given little or no thought into what he has just done, he simply reacted to circumstance. How can you correct a dog from doing something that he did that he didn’t even know he had done? For sure, that leaves plenty of room for misunderstanding and conflict. Most behavior problems are a result of conflict and stress. Those conflicts are often misunderstood and mistaken by the so called "domination/submission" theory trainers, to mean that the dog is always challenging them. To their way of thinking, dogs are constantly challenging us for "authority," and it is our "obligation" to react in kind, and push back harder to intimidate the dog. While that may or may not be the case in some small percentage of dogs, it is unfortunately widely taught and used. The problem with that approach, is that by nature, it is adversarial and compunctuous. It challenges a problem that does not deserve attention, and makes a serious issue that never ends, out of something that could have easily been finessed and redirected, through proper conditioning, demonstrated self control, and positive reinforcement. In order to get control, you have to give up on the micro aspects of control and force. It is when we force control, that we challenge instinctive behaviors and create and encounter out of control behaviors. Any behavior can be modified through proper conditioning without force or conflict. Using non force methods you can teach a dog to come every time you call in about forty minutes. Using non force methods, you can stop a dog from jumping, in about fifteen minutes, maybe less. Using non force methods, you can avoid the substitution of other negative behaviors as replacements. Using non force methods is the fastest, most effective way to get your dog to do anything you ask, without stifling the dogs personality, breaking his spirit, or adversely affecting his temperament. I don’t use non force methods because I’m a wimp, or just because force training is "cruel." I use non force methods because I have been training dogs for thirty-eight years and I learned the hard way, that force, confrontation, and fear, have no place in a training environment. Compulsion training is less efficient, and potentially causes more problems than it solves. Consistent, positive reinforcement and praise, coupled with Pavlovian conditioned reflex, are the only effective tools necessary that will permanently improve any dog’s behavior, and compel your dog to want to do anything you ask.. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                 -Leo Tolstoy- Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                 CAVEAT If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or punish your dog in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows HOWE. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                                 -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                                 -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                                 -Jerry Howe-

Response:

> Hello People, > I have used non force training methods

Non force training Best book out "Beyond Basic Dog Training" by Diane Bauman http://www.bright.net/~kparks/dogs/ds.jpg you will see happy dogs taking to it with interest and intent

Response:

Question:

>Three years ago, three pit bulls in our neighborhood got loose.  They >killed and mutilated a terrier then stalked and attacked a women.  She was >nearly killed before being rescued by a neighbor (who was also injured). >(The >owners of the dogs, to say the least, were ill-tempered and unapologetic!)   >Incredibly enough, after the trial (not the civil trial) the dogs were >returned to their owner.  

Too bad. The dogs should have been destroyed, owners held liable for all damages and charged with reckless endangerment. It’s people like that that have given this breed as well as others an undeserved bad reputation. Bob Maida Manassas,Va

Response:

>The problem is he doesn’t like strangers and will try to >attack (charging, barking, snarling) . He is on >a dog run or a leash when he is outside but >has gotten loose on occasion and terrorized the neighborhood.  

I hope you mean he is on a run and behind a fence!  If you don’t have him put down (I couldn’t do that either… not even to the hellhound next door that has bitten me twice, but who is much loved by his family), make sure he stays behind a fence (high enough to keep kids from reaching over) when outside and padlock the gate!  Neighborhood kids have twice tried to open the above mentioned hellhound’s gate despite the dog’s reputation!  Is there any way you can close off his access to the outside doors when he is inside in order to avoid the possibility of him slipping out when someone comes in? >I have consulted two local Dog Behavior professionals and the Vet >and my options were none. They recommended putting him down. >I am in tears thinking of this…there must be another option!!!

Three years ago, three pit bulls in our neighborhood got loose.  They killed and mutilated a terrier then stalked and attacked a women.  She was nearly killed before being rescued by a neighbor (who was also injured).  (The owners of the dogs, to say the least, were ill-tempered and unapologetic!)   Incredibly enough, after the trial (not the civil trial) the dogs were returned to their owner.  The owner was required to keep the dogs either in the house or in a kennel run with floor (cement), roof, warning signs, and a padlocked gate.  The dogs had to be leashed and muzzled when not in the kennel or house.  The court considered this adequate protection for the neighbors.   It is, I think, the only type of option you may have with your dog short of putting him down. Shirley   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Please e-mail me if you have any suggestions. >Please no flames ….my heart is already breaking. >– >Karen Chiles                                        —–   __o   >Harris Semiconductor  Melbourne, FL             ——    _`<,_  

Response:

>I have consulted two local Dog Behavior professionals and the Vet >and my options were none. They recommended putting him down. >I am in tears thinking of this…there must be another option!!!

Sorry, but it’s unsafe to keep this dog. Other children are at risk every time they are visiting. Find a home where there are no children residing, visiting or adjoining and with someone that is better equipped to deal with his aggression. If not, you do have to put him down. I’m sorry about the grief you are going through, but if he should bite a child or even yours at some point, the grief will be greater. Bob Maida Manassas,Va

Response:

I have a 3 year old neutered male Austrailian Shepard, Bunky, who is devoted to me and my children. Bunky and I have gone to obedience school when he was one and does well with "sit", "heal" , "down", etc. The problem is he doesn’t like strangers and will try to attack (charging, barking, snarling) . He is on a dog run or a leash when he is outside but has gotten loose on occasion and terrorized the neighborhood.   Four weeks ago he bit a neighbor lady. Animal Control was appropriatley contacted and Bunky was on "house arrest" for 10 days. My children cannot have their friends over without the dog being confined. He would most denfinetly would bite them if loose. He will nip at me when reprimanded, a tug on the leash with the choke colloar. This problem started in little ways at an early age and is now worse and much bigger. I wish I knew what I did or didn’t do that was wrong. I have consulted two local Dog Behavior professionals and the Vet and my options were none. They recommended putting him down. I am in tears thinking of this…there must be another option!!! Please e-mail me if you have any suggestions. Please no flames ….my heart is already breaking. — Karen Chiles                                        —–   __o   Harris Semiconductor  Melbourne, FL             ——    _`<,_  

Response: